Evaluating dental school options

[ray.m]

I’m evaluating if it’s too late to change careers (mid thirties). All pre-req are met but need to take DAT. Im scoring 20 or below on practice tests. GPA 3.5. 200 shadowing hours.

My reasons for changing are doing something more meaningful (subjective I know), hands on, and that builds equity via practice ownership rather than being an employee.

I make $240k base pre-tax, no stock options.

My only realistic option is attending an expensive private school which would put me in debt at least $500k, realistically upwards $900k when rates and tuition inevitably go up. I don’t think my application with a 20 DAT (theoretical) would be competitive for a cheaper school.

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[sobertiger]

Money wise it doesn't make sense. The opportunity cost alone would be nearly $1M... add tuition and other costs and you're looking at $1.9M... You will likely start out around $150k... so another $100k a year in opportunity cost for who knows how long.

 

[Mr.Smile12]

Which schools are closest to you do you world have the least disruption? I would consider the financial impacts, but if this is really something you feel passionately about, then start asking the people you shadow about what those challenges are going to look like. Through local networks, you should be able to find someone who went on a similar educational journey when tuition was not so high. Otherwise, you should ask admissions representatives at those nearby schools about what else you can do to help your application.

 

[ray.m]

Money wise it doesn't make sense. The opportunity cost alone would be nearly $1M... add tuition and other costs and you're looking at $1.9M... You will likely start out around $150k... so another $100k a year in opportunity cost for who knows how long.

Thanks for your input regarding opportunity cost. To counterbalance the opportunity cost, I think other factors like job stability, owner’s equity, and doing meaningful work (intangible, but contributes to mental well-being) are also important. Regarding your last point, I think the breakeven point is about 10 years. Coming out of that 10 years, one would have equity in at least 1 practice, income surpassing $240k (and possibly student loan debt discharged after 10 years with the trajectory new IBRs are headed).

Which schools are closest to you do you world have the least disruption? I would consider the financial impacts, but if this is really something you feel passionately about, then start asking the people you shadow about what those challenges are going to look like. Through local networks, you should be able to find someone who went on a similar educational journey when tuition was not so high. Otherwise, you should ask admissions representatives at those nearby schools about what else you can do to help your application.

Southern California schools, but I am considering all schools in the US. I have received positive feedback from most I’ve asked in person, but wanted to get more candid feedback online.

Thanks.

 

[PerioDont]

Money wise it doesn't make sense. The opportunity cost alone would be nearly $1M... add tuition and other costs and you're looking at $1.9M... You will likely start out around $150k... so another $100k a year in opportunity cost for who knows how long.

I would not do it based on this.

Is it possible to own your own business in the field you are in?

 

[Middle Age DDS]

You are making more than many dentists currently. Is there a passion project that is out there to serve others? It could fill any service void that you are feeling and not take a financial hit. If you were my sibling I would do everything to keep you from applying. Now if you were say making 30k I may reconsider. It just doesn't make sense financially. Dave Ramsey would lose his mind over this. OF course there are are so many variables you haven't mentioned. Things like having a lot of savings, no family obligations etc.

 

[charlestweed]

You are in your mid 30s......and you haven't been able to save anything. You still have to take out $500k student loan for dental school? Do you have kid(s) to support?

Yes, it would be too late if you graduated from dental school in your late 30s and owed $500k in student loan debt. At 40, you won't have the same energy to work hard like your 26-27 yo colleagues, who went to school the traditional way. Dentistry is a physically demanding job. It would be OK to graduate at this "old" age if you didn't have any debt.

 

[ray.m]

I would not do it based on this.

Is it possible to own your own business in the field you are in?

Yes, but it would not be as reliable or recession resistant as dentistry. Two different specialists suggested to only consider doing dentistry as an owner-dentist since the investment is difficult to recoup as an employee in my situation. One dentist suggested to skip school and scale up a DSO instead, which sounds risky (and something I haven’t fully considered practical, but maybe I’m just being naïve?) as I’ve been evaluating the clinical and creative expression of dentistry than just making a business out of it.

You are making more than many dentists currently. Is there a passion project that is out there to serve others? It could fill any service void that you are feeling and not take a financial hit. If you were my sibling I would do everything to keep you from applying. Now if you were say making 30k I may reconsider. It just doesn't make sense financially. Dave Ramsey would lose his mind over this. OF course there are are so many variables you haven't mentioned. Things like having a lot of savings, no family obligations etc.

Thanks for your feedback. This is what I’m trying to explore.

You are in your mid 30s......and you haven't been able to save anything. You still have to take out $500k student loan for dental school? Do you have kid(s) to support?

Yes, it would be too late if you graduated from dental school in your late 30s and owed $500k in student loan debt. At 40, you won't have the same energy to work hard like your 26-27 yo colleagues, who went to school the traditional way. Dentistry is a physically demanding job. It would be OK to graduate at this "old" age if you didn't have any debt.

No kids, not married, only saved about $200k cash (mainly because I decided not to buy a house right now in this market).

Based on the new IBR (20-25? years) at $240k income growing 3%, on a 900k student loan balance (with interest accrued right after dental school, inflated for margin of safety), the total payments would be around $600k and a tax bomb payment of again around $600k.

I would be in my 60s while doing something I enjoy, and would have this debt paid off, with equity in multiple practices and savings. That’s how I’m justifying this but would like to get feedback and critiques. What am I overlooking?

 

[charlestweed]

No kids, not married, only saved about $200k cash (mainly because I decided not to buy a house right now in this market).

Based on the new IBR (20-25? years) at $240k income growing 3%, on a 900k student loan balance (with interest accrued right after dental school, inflated for margin of safety), the total payments would be around $600k and a tax bomb payment of again around $600k.

I am not familiar with the IBR since I graduated a long time ago. Don’t you have to keep your income under certain level in order to qualify for this IBR thing?

I would be in my 60s while doing something I enjoy, and would have this debt paid off, with equity in multiple practices and savings. That’s how I’m justifying this but would like to get feedback and critiques. What am I overlooking?

I don’t think you’d enjoy practicing dentistry very much if your goal is to make at least $240k/year, especially here in CA, where there are dental offices at every street corner....especially with your 60 yo hands and back. With experience, it shouldn’t be too hard (and it's actually an enjoyable job) to earn $120k/year. But to make twice as much, $240k/year, you will have to see a lot more patients. Treating more patients means more stress, more patient complaints, more emergencies, and higher chance of getting sued etc.

Since you don't have to support anyone, I guess it's ok to pursue dentistry at this age. The government can't go after a person when he/she dies.

 

[ray.m]

IBR isn’t income capped. It’s the one of the few things most dental students graduating from expensive schools depend on for their 650k note at 7% interest. However, there are bigger loans (e.g practice loan) and financial setbacks (e.g. divorce) that matter more than a student loan, right?

The trend for population to dentist ratio is around 1100:1 for major metropolitan areas (attached an example). This has been a consistent downward trend (1400:1 to 1100:1). Nationally, it’s 1400:1. I’m guessing what matters more than patient acquisition is patient retention.

I don’t understand the $120k or $240k figure you mentioned. If I owned a practice generating 1M revenue and assume 50% overhead, twice the quoted amount would remain. If you assume a high 70% overhead, that’s still greater than the quoted amount you mentioned.

 

[charlestweed]

IBR isn’t income capped. It’s the one of the few things most dental students graduating from expensive schools depend on for their 650k note at 7% interest. However, there are bigger loans (e.g practice loan) and financial setbacks (e.g. divorce) that matter more than a student loan, right?

The trend for population to dentist ratio is around 1100:1 for major metropolitan areas (attached an example). This has been a consistent downward trend (1400:1 to 1100:1). Nationally, it’s 1400:1. I’m guessing what matters more than patient acquisition is patient retention.

I don’t understand the $120k or $240k figure you mentioned. If I owned a practice generating 1M revenue and assume 50% overhead, twice the quoted amount would remain. If you assume a high 70% overhead, that’s still greater than the quoted amount you mentioned.

View attachment 359503

To make money in dentistry, you have to sit down and perform the procedures yourself. Your assistants can’t do them for you (unless you are an orthodontist). The more money you want to generate, the more patients you have to see and the harder you have to work. I guess you can hire associate dentists to perform the procedures for you but this will increase your overhead significantly....and yes, it can go up to 90-100%. And most associate dentists don’t care because it’s not their practice. You may have to redo many of their failed crowns and endos. You may have to deal with the patients’ complaints about some of the things that your associate did. Like I said before, more patients = more money….but also more headaches for you to deal with. Dentistry is a job….and like any other jobs, it requires a lot of efforts and responsibilities. Nothing is easy in life. Work is not supposed to be fun. You can only truly enjoy a job when you are 100% debt free, when you have no bill to pay, and making a lot of $$$ is no longer important to you.