Essays on Canada

[docchanmd]

Problems in Canada:

6. Health Care disaster.

Doctors in Canada are in a shortage, 1 in 4 Canadians cannot get a family doctor.
Canadian doctors are leaving to move permanently to the U.S.
Statistics Canada and the Canadian Medical Association both have identified that for every
1 American doctor that moves to Canada, 19 (nineteen) Canadian doctors move to the United States!
Doctors in Canada are overworked and underpaid.

5. Very high taxes.

Yes, you have the GST, the PST on practically everything you purchase and many other taxes
taken out of our weekly paycheck. You have to pay a whopping amount to the government, out
of your hard earned salary, so that the government can turn around and give it to beer
drinking, hockey watching welfare bums. Fair? It does not matter, it's Canada.

4. Crooked Government.

From former Prime Minister Jean Chretian to former Ontario Premier Ernie Eves, you have politicians
that say one thing, but do another. Empty promises, false hope, no action, no progress. Canadian embassies
all over the globe, lie to foreigners, telling them to immigrate to Canada, promising them
a life here that can never be obtained.

3. No culture.

Unlike almost every other country in the world, Canada has no culture. What does it even
mean to call yourself a 'Canadian'. . .nothing really. Every one in Canada, still identifies
themselves as to where they 'originally' came from.

2. Worst weather.

Yes, Canada has the worst weather conditions of any country in the world. Freezing cold tempertatures,
snow, ice, hail, winds, storms etc From the Prairie provinces to the Maritimes, from the Territories to southern Ontario, the weather is so horrific and disgusting that many Canadians leave Canada simply because of this reason alone.

1. No Jobs.

Yes, from coast to coast, there are no jobs. People are highly qualified (MD's, PhD's, Lawyers,
Engineers etc) but they are driving taxi cabs, delivering pizza's or working in factories. This is the
tragedy associated with immigration to Canada. I feel sorry for those immigrants who are stuck
in Canada for the rest of their lives. It is indeed a very sad and hopeless future.

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Leaving Canada, the best thing a Canadian can do

Here are some of the reasons that I am a firm believer for the past 10 years or so that for a Canadian, the best thing to do for your life, career and future is simply -> to leave Canada.

Realities of Canada:

1) No jobs, No opportunities

Yes, this is true. Why? Because the market is completely saturated. There so many Bachelors degrees being pumped out of Universities across Canada that a B.Sc. or a B.A. has become completely useless.

People graduated after four or five years of undergrad and find themselves unemployed. Or (if they are lucky) working full time at the place they were working part time as a student.

Canada is a dry well for jobs, no matter how many times you throw in the bucket, you won't come up with any water. Some mud perhaps.

2) Immigration patterns have ruined the country

Yes, this is true. Unlike the U.S. that invites people to all places. Canada has people clustered in only three area -> Toronto, Montreal and Vancouver.

What is the result of this? Thousands and thousands of Indians, Pakistanis, Chinese, Koreans, Japansese etc all jammed packed liked sardines in small areas.

They are working in factories, driving taxi cabs or delivering pizzas.

Then when their children grow up they have the immigrant dreams, but since there are so many of them in these areas that all the spots are taken!

For example, for medical school, Ontario ranks #1 in North America for the most difficult place to gain admission. It's a 1 in 7 ratio to get in.

In United States? It's a 1 in 2 ratio to get into medical school.

3) Why do this new generation stay in Canada then?

Good question. The answers are surprising simple -> insecurity, lack of self confidence, refusal to face reality, inability to leave the parental home.

This is especially common among Indians and Pakistanis. See this culture promotes grown men to live at home with their parents.

The culture promotes elitism, where they only associate with other Indians and Pakistanis. (Further adding to the total lack of community feel that exists among Canadian cities)

This new generation has been so brain washed by their parents, that they lack the self confidence to move to another place and achieve their goals and take advantage of the great oppotunities that exist in the United States.


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Hundreds and hundreds of IMG's come to Canada each year.

Their education credentials get them to the front of the immigration lines.

They get Canadian immigration, get all HAPPY. Then they come to Toronto with their spouse and kids.

BUT after they arrive, their world is TURNED UPSIDE DOWN. When they realize that they will never get residency in Canada or a job as a doctor.

CPSO reports that there are over 1000 (one thousand) IMG's in Ontario with no residency and no job as a doctor.

They are driving taxi cabs or delivering pizza's to put food on the table for their families.

They are sitting in the evenings at the Kaplan center on Bloor st in Toronto studying their eyes out for the USMLE Step 1, Step 2 and Step 3, CSA and TOEFL.

They have passed MCCEE, MCCQE, gone through the CARMS match and still no residency no job as a doctor.

Best advice -> don't come to Canada if you are a foreign doctor.

If you are in Canada, write USMLE and apply for primary care in the United States.


----------------------------------------------------

Comparison of Doctor Salaries in Canada vs USA:

Here are the salaries in Canada:

http://jobfutures.ca/fos/browse-programs-alphabet.shtml

Here are the salaries in the United States:

http://www.vault.com/career/Salaries___Compensation.html

---------------------------------------


if in Canada a GP earns $106,00

then that converts to $69,000 (U.S. dollars), using the conversion rate of 1.6.

(you can do similar conversions for the other salaries)

GP's (Family Physicians) pay very low insurance (like $5000 a year) in the United States. And the earn about $150,000/year, that's U.S. dollars.

So let's see

CHOICE A:
Boony, rural Saskatchewan or Northen BC for $69,000/year, living in minus 30 degrees celcius, with no opportunities for my spouse or kids.

CHOICE B:
Suberb of a major U.S. city, nice weatherm excellent opportunities for my spouse and kids, #1 country in the world, making $150,000/yr.


geee, I wonder what I will choose ??

-----------------------------------------

As for Buying Power, you are definitely wrong. I mean seriously, have you even looked into this?

Buying power is much better in the U.S.

Examples:

Music CD
Canada: 21.99
USA: 12.99

Movie on DVD
Canada: 29.98
USA: 17.98

Car (Hyundai Accent)
Canada: 16,000
USA: 10,300

so many more example. . .I don't have time to list them all

Plus in Canada you have to pay GST + PST,
and the taxes that are taken off your weekly salary are enormous in Canada!


--------------------------------------

I think it's great that people say:

"After I finish residency in the U.S. I will go back to Canada to practice"

But I hardly doubt they will do that.

I mean, c'mon, get real here for a moment.

After you finish your residency in the U.S. you will be offered a job for $150,000 (that's U.S. dollars).

You are trying to tell me, you will pass this up to go back to Penetanguishene, Ontario to work in some rural area for $110,000 Canadian dollars (which converts to only $69,000 U.S. dollars by the way).

Verification: http://jobfutures.ca/fos/M521.shtml

If you do do this you deserve the nobel prize for your efforts.

I am sorry but money talks.

Why do you think sooooooo many immigrants come to U.S. every year? For McDonalds?

-----------------------------------------


look basically it goes like this:

1) These Canadians having realized that it is soooooo tough to get into a med school in Canada (Ontario is the toughest in all of North America by the way) head down to the Caribbean for med school.

2) They don't really know what they are getting themselves into until they get there and find out the realities

3) When the find out that they will not be able to return to Canada, they get pissed off and try deperately to refuse to believe it

4) But after these Canadians get residency in the U.S., they get comfortable with the U.S. lifestyle

5) After they finish residency in the U.S. and are offered these 'fat' salaries they are MORE than willing to stay in the U.S. and quickly develop amnesia about Canada (Canada? where is that?)


I have seen this scenario over and over. . .

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Members don't see this ad.

 

[docchanmd]

There are currently over 1000 (over one thousand) IMG's sitting in Ontario waiting for a residency spot.

The fact that the Premier has proposed 110 new spots means that there will still be over 890 IMG's sitting in Ontario waiting for a residency spot.

Also, there will so many additional IMG's from all over the world now APPLYING (all thinking that they will get one of these new spots) that the ratio will be even tougher than the current one of 400 applicants for 50 spots with the Ontario IMG Program.

Forget about Canada. Write USMLE and apply for residency in the U.S.

-------------------------------------------


Let me explain why now it will actually become TOUGHER than EVER to get residency in Canada:


1) The Ontario IMG Program used to have 36 spots per year. They used to get around 270 applications per year. That's 1 in 7 chance of getting accepted.

2) Then the Ontario IMG program increased their spots to 50 per year. The applications rose to 400 per year. That's 1 in 8 chance of getting in.

3) Now there are 110 new spots. I bet that everyone of those 1000 + (one thousand plus) IMG's sitting in Ontario waiting for a residency spot will apply.

That's a 1 in 10 chance of getting in!


Note that these residencies are targetted to rural/underserviced areas. In Canada that means: -30 degrees celcius everyday.

Canada is a closed door for IMG's. I am not sure why people refuse to accept that reality.

Also I don't understand what is so great about Canada that people are dying to get there.

Pay is much less than U.S., opportunities are limited for you and your spouse and your kids.

Not to mention, one million immigrants all ass-jammed into one central area (greater Toronto), no assimilation, complete loss of community feel. . .the most God-awful environment imaginable.

----------------------------------------------

 

[moo]

The ONLY reason why I would go back to Canada is because of my family and SO. Even so I would pick almost any US city over other places in Canada.

But I agree with all of your points. Canada's open door immigration policy has transformed itself into one where the definition of "Canadian" has no bearing: one still identifies oneself as Indian, Paksitani, Chinese, Korean, Vietnamese, etc.

Also, Canadians are unbelievably arrogant, much more so than Americans.

I say this as a Canadian in the US.

 

[Purifyer]

Out of curiousity what are the tax brackets and rates in Canada?

 

[Clue]

The benefits of living in Canada:
1) You don't have to worry about getting sued all the time. It doesn't matter how good of a doctor you are. You will get sued eventually. Doctors rarely get sued in Canada and they have a much less chance of losing the case.
2) Your office staff will be much smaller as billing can be done in half an hour by the same person who answers your phones and puts patients in the room. (= lower overhead). VS the US where you will need to hire one very intelligent person (=$$) to deal with several insurance companies who are trying not to pay you whenever they can.
3) Malpractice insurance is NOT $5000/yr for a FP in the States. It is less than that in Canada, though. OB/Gyn's have to pay up to $100k a year and some ER docs have malpractice insurance rates greater than their salary.
4) You have a much lower chance of getting shot. (Unless you are an Indo/Pakistani male in Vancouver)
5) It may be cold, but we got the best skiing and ice hockey in the world (my two favorite activities).
6) I have never paid 30 dollars for a DVD nor 22 for a CD. Fast food is much more expensive in Canada, though, I'll give you that.
7) 200,000 still gets you a really nice house in most Canadian cities. See what it gets you in the main US cities.


I am a Canadian in the US as well. I like it here alot too. The opportunities available in the states are unparelleled. But everything is not perfect here and everything is not terrible in Canada.

 

[moo]

I agree with most everything Clue has to say. There are some things that growing up as a Canadian, you take for granted living in the US. I do miss the hockey (ESPN/ABC just doesn't compare to CBC), the skiing (although you can get that here I suppose... this is more of a regional thing), but I don't think these things are enough of a draw to make me want to live in, say Toronto (is there even skiing in Toronto?), over Seattle.

Americans are also a lot less overtly racist than Canadians. Canada preaches this multiculturalism crap but their own citizens are so overtly racist whenever I am back (whether it be Vancouver, Toronto, Montreal (especially) or some hick town). Americans may be ignorant but at least the majority of them don't make it a point to discriminate.

 

[docchanmd]

Hi guys

those are some very good points you both bring up.

I am however, quite disappointed that you mention hockey and ice as some of Canada's strong points.

I think hockey is stupid and worthless and Canadians are the laughing stock of the world for clinging to such ****** sports (hockey, lacrosse, curling etc).

Anyhow, I think if you took away beer and hockey from Canada, 90% of Canadians would die.

I just want to address one thing MOO said.

He said that Americans are nicer, this is true. Here is why:

TWO BIG REASONS

1) First, because of the blacks struggling and fighting for civil rights, after decades the whites in America have finally started to treat minorities with respect and equality. Thank the blacks for the freedoms of all minorities. It is because of their struggle that we have it so good in the U.S.

2) In Canada, whites feel threatened by minorites and recently arrived immigrants. They feel that the immigrants will take over their jobs.
See in America, white people are so rich, that they know that there is no way immigrants can ever take them out of their high positions, no matter how much opportunity they give away.

my two cents for today

Joseph
[email protected]

 

[moo]

Well I also said that those reasons are NOT enough alone in bringing me back to Canada. Those are things that I miss, but I can certainly live without them. I'll just adapt new sports like college football.

Although I do agree with you that Americans are nicer, I don't agree with your second statement that white people don't think minorities will take their place. In fact, the white people WANT minorities to take on higher positions (hence all the AA stuff you see on this board etc.) But in any case, I'm always treated with respect, wherever I go in America, be it the south, the midwest, the east coast or the west coast. My dad, who has lived all over America and Canada also agrees with me.

 

[docchanmd]

I think the botton line is opportunities and money.

In the United States there are jobs, money, opportunities.

In Canada, there is not.

Simple as that, end of story.

 

[canuck MD]

Originally posted by docchanmd
Hi guys

those are some very good points you both bring up.

I am however, quite disappointed that you mention hockey and ice as some of Canada's strong points.

I think hockey is stupid and worthless and Canadians are the laughing stock of the world for clinging to such ****** sports (hockey, lacrosse, curling etc).

Anyhow, I think if you took away beer and hockey from Canada, 90% of Canadians would die.

I just want to address one thing MOO said.

He said that Americans are nicer, this is true. Here is why:

TWO BIG REASONS

1) First, because of the blacks struggling and fighting for civil rights, after decades the whites in America have finally started to treat minorities with respect and equality. Thank the blacks for the freedoms of all minorities. It is because of their struggle that we have it so good in the U.S.

2) In Canada, whites feel threatened by minorites and recently arrived immigrants. They feel that the immigrants will take over their jobs.
See in America, white people are so rich, that they know that there is no way immigrants can ever take them out of their high positions, no matter how much opportunity they give away.

my two cents for today

Joseph
[email protected]

Joseph,

You have posted some of the most uneducated comments I have ever heared! I hope you will go or remain in the US! You are not a true Canadian! Canadians are passionate, open-minded and caring people. You complain about the weather, our culture, our national pastime, our health care system etc. You make crued generalized comments about immigration acceptance and the treatment of minorities. You havn't got a clue of what being a Canadian truly is. I'm assuming that you are or want to be a medical student/resident; go to the US and bring in the big $$$. It would seem that the only reason you would enter the profession is to make money. I don't want to bash the US, they obviously have their strengths. However, I could not see myself living in a country which provides medical care based on your social-economic status. In closing, Joseph, you seem to have had bad experiences in Canada; were you bullied, refused at our medical schools or simply didn't get your way for something? All I can say is that with the attitude that you've portraied on this board, I'm very pleased to hear that you won't be joining our gene pool!

 

[canuck MD]

Originally posted by moo
I agree with most everything Clue has to say. There are some things that growing up as a Canadian, you take for granted living in the US. I do miss the hockey (ESPN/ABC just doesn't compare to CBC), the skiing (although you can get that here I suppose... this is more of a regional thing), but I don't think these things are enough of a draw to make me want to live in, say Toronto (is there even skiing in Toronto?), over Seattle.

Americans are also a lot less overtly racist than Canadians. Canada preaches this multiculturalism crap but their own citizens are so overtly racist whenever I am back (whether it be Vancouver, Toronto, Montreal (especially) or some hick town). Americans may be ignorant but at least the majority of them don't make it a point to discriminate.

"multiculturalism crap"......"hick town"....who is the racist? I guess you enjoy the generalizations as well...you're gonna make a great physician....really...adds a nice touch...

 

[moo]

I call it like I see it. That's my opinion. The world is full of generalizations. I'm not dumb enough to say that ALL Canadians are like that, because heck I am one! All I'm saying is that maybe Canadians should open their eyes and realize America isn't as bad as the left wing media makes it out to be.

I'm not saying AMerica is better than Canada or what not. That's up to the individual to decide for himself/herself. Health care? Each system has its pros and cons which have been beaten to death here and elsewhere.

I'm not in the US for money. I'm not in medicine for money either. If I were, I would have applied to more than two Canadian schools and less than 20 American schools, instead of incurring 200000USD in debt and then wanting to go back to Canada, where everyone I love is, and face making the same amount as doctors who graduated from Canadian schools with a lot less debt. But at the same time, you shouldn't chastize people for wanting to make money. Money is what makes the world go around. Would you like it if I told you you had to work 60 hours a week as a doc and you only would make as much as the teenager who flips burgers at McDonald's? (Sure we all make this much as a resident, but I'm asking you if you'd accept this for the rest of your life.) Would you work for free? There's nothing wrong with wanting to make money. Some of the richest people in the world (Bill Gates, for example) are the most generous donors. For some its more important than others. For me, money isn't the biggest priority although I would like to live comfortably, I'm not going to lie. I'm not going to have 8 years of post-HS education plus whatever length residency I'm gonna do just so I can live in the projects. I don't think it's bad for docchan to want to go into medicine for money. It's no secret that although drs don't make that much compared to a successful business person, they do make a comfortable living, and I don't think there's anything wrong with that.

On multiculturalism, maybe I should clarify: I'm not against immigration; my parents immigrated to Canada 30 years ago. I just don't believe in uncontrolled immigration where you let in people from anywhere. Canada has lost its identity as a result. What does it mean to be Canadian? Many immigrants refuse to assimilate. They speak their own language and make no attempt to converse with born and bred Canadians. I know because many of MY relatives who've been here for 30-40 years CAN'T SPEAK A WORD OF ENGLISH. They don't assimilate because they can get away with it. Do you think that's good? What if you are a practicing physician and want to work in treating a population that's multicultural? Do I have to learn all those languages? Wouldn't it be easier if they learned English or French , because after all those are the official languages? I already speak three languages, and I don't have the time or energy to devote myself to learning more.

On racism, maybe I should just say there's a lot of tension between racial groups in Canada, whereas in America, with the exception of the African Americans, all racial groups get along. Indians live alongside Chinese, Jews, etc. in white neighborhoods. The only segregation I see is wrt to African Americans, but that is because of their sad history in America. IN Canada, you get this geographical distribution of immigrant groups such that entire suburbs are predominantly of one race/culture. (If you don't believe me just go to Vancouver and go to the different suburbs.) Then you get gang fights between Chinese and Indians, etc. All I'm saying is Canada isn't without its problems.

I'm not as extreme as some Alberta separatists. My problem with a lot of Canadians is that they say that they have all this pride in Canada and turn around and bash the Americans for having American pride. So what's wrong with having pride in one's country?What's wrong with coming out with movies like Mighty Ducks (where you have the US team winning) or the new movie Miracle? It's Hollywood, and they have pride in their hockey team. Would it be so wrong for the CBC to put out a movie about the 72 Summit series? I'm proud to be Canadian, and I wear a maple leaf on my back pack and I have a huge Canadian flag hanging on the wall in my apartment so all my American friends are reminded of my Canadian-ness. But that doesn't make me anti-American, and I don't bash Americans when they are nationalistic.

I don't wanna get into a debate over which country is better. You obviously love Canada. I think Canada has its good points, but I just don't think it's the greatest country in the world. So there is a difference of opinion. No need to start calling me racist and all that.

 

[docchanmd]

Yes, I may be called a lot of things, but one thing I am not is a racist.

Here is the definition of racism: "a belief in the innate superiority of a particular race; antagonism towards members of a different race based on this belief."

I certainly don't think I am better than anyone. But I do point out truths and facts about Canada and Canadians.

White Canadians ARE racist. Not just in the prairies or maritimes, but right here in Ontario, places like Sarnia, Guelph, Aliston, Lindsay, Fergus, Beamsville, Hagersville, Chatham etc. You have white Canadians who hate foreigners so much that their brand of racists is outright and astonishing. It leaves you breathless.

I fully believe in those essays I wrote about Canada. It's all true!

your wrote regarding me:

"All I can say is that with the attitude that you've portraied on this board, I'm very pleased to hear that you won't be joining our gene pool!"

Well to be honest I agree with you! I do not want to be a Canadian either, and I certainly don't want to raise my future children in Canada. I don't want my kids to have the same lack of opportunity and hopeless future that most Canadians face. 50,000 people leave Canada every year to move to the U.S.

 

[Clue]

Docchanmd, I don't know what experiences you've had in life to make you think that all white canadians are racist. I feel sorry for you. I am sure there are racist people in all parts of Canada, just as there are in all parts of the US. I live in a city in the US where I was threatened on a daily basis after 9/11. My place of worship was desecrated by racist slogans. 2 prominent members of my community were shot because they wore turbans. I doubt what you faced was anything near this. Do I think all white americans are racist? I would be a fool to make that inference.
I don't know what it is about Canada that you hate so much. The opportunities available there are still better than many places in the world. Not as good as the States, but we are 1/10th the size. People come from all over the world knowing full well that their degrees may not be recognized as equivalent. Yet they come because they will make more money driving a taxi than they would as a lawyer or doctor in their home countries. And to possibly give their kids a better life than they would have had in their home countries.
You choose to leave Canada for med school knowing full well you would have a rough time getting back in. Sounds like sour grapes to me. Did you borrow any of that worthless Canadian student loan money to finance your education?

 

[docchanmd]

Clue, I don't think you read my essays

in particular this part refers to you:



Why do this new generation stay in Canada then?

Good question. The answers are surprising simple -> insecurity, lack of self confidence, refusal to face reality, inability to leave the parental home.

This is especially common among Indians and Pakistanis. See this culture promotes grown men to live at home with their parents.

The culture promotes elitism, where they only associate with other Indians and Pakistanis. (Further adding to the total lack of community feel that exists among Canadian cities)

This new generation has been so brain washed by their parents, that they lack the self confidence to move to another place and achieve their goals and take advantage of the great oppotunities that exist in the United States.


I have one question for you 'Clue':

if you dislike America so much, why are you in the U.S. currently?
. . .go back to Canada if Canada is so great.

 

[Dr.BadVibes]

It seems like you are getting in the medical profession for all the perks....so Im kinda glad you wont be practicing medicine in Canada.

What is the result of this? Thousands and thousands of Indians, Pakistanis, Chinese, Koreans, Japansese etc all jammed packed liked sardines in small areas.

They are working in factories, driving taxi cabs or delivering pizzas.

Then when their children grow up they have the immigrant dreams, but since there are so many of them in these areas that all the spots are taken!

HAHHAHA...and the immigrants in the US are living the high life, eh!! No factories in the US I assume? All the jobs down there are jobs where immigrant families are holding each other hands, prancing through a field of marigolds...

5. Very high taxes.

Yes, you have the GST, the PST on practically everything you purchase and many other taxes
taken out of our weekly paycheck. You have to pay a whopping amount to the government, out
of your hard earned salary, so that the government can turn around and give it to beer
drinking, hockey watching welfare bums. Fair? It does not matter, it's Canada.

HAHAH...and the US is the land of no taxes?? HMMM...NO! In the US, they pay nearly as much income tax as we do, except their tax money goes to the army and "national security", whereas our tax money goes into social program and ensuring that everyone has equal access to medical care regardless of income. And what about Alberta...they dont pay PST...and you speak so highly of elitism, but it seems like you want to earn as much as possible as a doctor, so you can have the advantages that other people do not enjoy.

4. Crooked Government.

From former Prime Minister Jean Chretian to former Ontario Premier Ernie Eves, you have politicians
that say one thing, but do another. Empty promises, false hope, no action, no progress. Canadian embassies
all over the globe, lie to foreigners, telling them to immigrate to Canada, promising them
a life here that can never be obtained.

Name one government in the world that is not crooked? If you actually know what is going on in the world, instead of your biology textbook, you will see that Canada has some of the least corrupt politicians in the World...although they are still corrupt. However, with you talking about the US so highly, are you saying that their politicians are not corrupt!?!?!? Oh my god...seriously, I think I can classify you as one of the most stupid persons I have ever come across if you actually believe what you are typing!!!

3. No culture.

Unlike almost every other country in the world, Canada has no culture. What does it even
mean to call yourself a 'Canadian'. . .nothing really. Every one in Canada, still identifies
themselves as to where they 'originally' came from.

No culture, eh? Hmmm..our culture is one of diversity...not assimilation like the Americans...we value diversity....and if you ask 10 people on a Canadian street, where they are from, Im sure most will say somewhere else than Canada...however, if you ask them if they like Canada, most will say for sure. That in itself is good enough for me. Diversity is the basis of our culture...accept it or **** off. And the Americans...what is their culture? World Domination? Brainwashing their citizenry to think they are the best and most powerful country in the world, and whatever they do is fine??? If you have EVER left North America, you will find that EVERYONE, and i mean EVERYONE has so much more respect for a Canadian than a American...that itself is invaluable! Why do you think so many backpacking Americans wear Canadian flags for safety??? the Majority of Americans dont even own a passport, because they never travel outside the uNited States....talk about international exposure, eh!

2. Worst weather.

Yes, Canada has the worst weather conditions of any country in the world. Freezing cold tempertatures,
snow, ice, hail, winds, storms etc From the Prairie provinces to the Maritimes, from the Territories to southern Ontario, the weather is so horrific and disgusting that many Canadians leave Canada simply because of this reason alone.

Actually, the weather in most major Canadian cities, is exactly the same as the weather in most American cities. And actually, the cities in the Northeast such as New York, Boston, get more snow than we do....And if you actually look at a map one of these days, you will see that Toronto is actually more South than the Northern States.....But if you are talking about Florida or California...thats a different story obviously. However, wanting to be a doctor, talk about saturation!!

Anyhow, I think if you took away beer and hockey from Canada, 90% of Canadians would die

HAHAH...if you took away the NFL and Budweiser, than all Americans would die! If you took away football and Carling, all English people would die...what a stupid argument to use!

1) First, because of the blacks struggling and fighting for civil rights, after decades the whites in America have finally started to treat minorities with respect and equality. Thank the blacks for the freedoms of all minorities. It is because of their struggle that we have it so good in the U.S.

2) In Canada, whites feel threatened by minorites and recently arrived immigrants. They feel that the immigrants will take over their jobs.
See in America, white people are so rich, that they know that there is no way immigrants can ever take them out of their high positions, no matter how much opportunity they give away.

HAHAHAHAH...I would like you to say this to any African-American, and they will laugh at you...from what I see in any American city I goto, all the shantytowns within the city are Black, wheras the whites have run into the suburbs. Speaking of feeling threatened by minorities... Americans treating minorities equally...oh my god...my stomach hurts from laughing so much....Dude, you are the perfect example of how a person can be so brainwashed from the American system..The American government should really use you for scientific research...

On racism, maybe I should just say there's a lot of tension between racial groups in Canada, whereas in America, with the exception of the African Americans, all racial groups get along. Indians live alongside Chinese, Jews, etc. in white neighborhoods.

HAHAHA...actually, my Indian relatives live in an area in New Jersey where its ALL Indian, and they tell my family that they are victims of racism a lot...they only wish they could live in Toronto...I have Indian family as well in Buffalo and they are in Toronto every other week, because they like it so much.

Population of Chicago: 2.4 million
Population of Toronto: 2.8 million

Murders in Chicago: 599 homicides last year
Murders in Toronto: 60 homicides last year

Hey dochanmd...have fun raising your kids in America...just remember to tell them to be home early, and dont be suprised if they come home from school at 6 years old and start telling you that America is the best country in the world in a robotic voice and that they hate Black people.

The only thing that scares me is that you are the result of Canadian education and that is scary....Have fun in the US, idiot.

 

[Clue]

"Why do this new generation stay in Canada then?

Good question. The answers are surprising simple -> insecurity, lack of self confidence, refusal to face reality, inability to leave the parental home.

This is especially common among Indians and Pakistanis. See this culture promotes grown men to live at home with their parents.

The culture promotes elitism, where they only associate with other Indians and Pakistanis. (Further adding to the total lack of community feel that exists among Canadian cities)

This new generation has been so brain washed by their parents, that they lack the self confidence to move to another place and achieve their goals and take advantage of the great oppotunities that exist in the United States.

I have one question for you 'Clue':

if you dislike America so much, why are you in the U.S. currently?
. . .go back to Canada if Canada is so great."

I don't dislike America, where are you getting that from? Re-read my posts, I like it here, I just don't appreciate your Canada bashing and want to provide a balanced view. All is not perfect in the US just like it isn't in Canada.
Why are you so bitter towards the Indian and Pakistani communities? I don't appreciate your generalizations of us (as well as white Canadians). If your measure of self-confidence is moving to the US, then I can point to myself and several of my Indo-Canadian friends who are in dental, medical, chiropractor and optometry school all over the US. Not to mention the ones filling the off-shore medical schools in the Carribean and Europe. How does that fly with your stereotype? We did leave Canada to take advantage of opportunities that weren't available there. I said it in an earlier post, there are way more opportunites available in the US. No reasonable person will argue that there isn't.
One more thing: It isn't common in our society for kids to leave home until they are married or they leave to go to work or school in a different city. That is not so different than my friends from other ethnic backgrounds. It is also common for parents to live with their eldest son after he is married.
You may not be racist, but you are certainly very ignorant. You make generalizations about groups of people that aren't true. white Canadians aren't racist. Indians aren't elitist, brain washed and lacking self-confidence.

 

[moo]

HAHAHA...actually, my Indian relatives live in an area in New Jersey where its ALL Indian, and they tell my family that they are victims of racism a lot...they only wish they could live in Toronto...I have Indian family as well in Buffalo and they are in Toronto every other week, because they like it so much.

That's your opinion, shaped by your own experiences. My opinion is shaped by my OWN experiences. Hence we differ on our opinions. I respect what you say, but I don't agree with it. Arguing about this isn't gonna get us anywhere.

As for murders, I never said America is safer than Canada. Where did you get that idea?

And you have on your signature three American schools. Have you decided to settle in America then?

And I never said I hated Canada. I'll go back to Canada if they ever decide to let my "inferior" American education stand up against the "superior" Canadian one.

One more thing, Toronto is not the center of Canada. That's one more reason why us westerners hate you guys so much.

 

[docchanmd]

to Mr. avingupta


I have a few things to say about what you wrote:

-> you will never be considered a Canadian (as you are avin gupta). Only a Canadian citizen. So I really don't know where you loyalty comes from. You and your parents betrayed your home country to immirate to Canada so they could earn a buck. So I don' t know where this patriotism comes from.

-> yes, I will raise my kids in America, and they will thank me. I would never want to raise my future kids in Canada and force them into a hopeless future.

-> notice how many Canadians have left Canada to go to the U.S.!
Heck, many Canadians go to the caribbean med schools, knowing that they many never be able to get back into Canada.
Heck some Canadians go to U.S. Osteopathic med schools, and therefore completely saying goodbye to canada forever (Osteopathic medicine is not recognized in Canada).

I say to you Mr. Avin Gupta, stay proud of Canada, stay in Canada. With your attitude you don't deserve to be in the U.S.
America only wants people who will be patriots.
Stay in canada and shovel snow and collect unemployment insurance.
Good day sir.

 

[Dr.BadVibes]

-> you will never be considered a Canadian (as you are avin gupta). Only a Canadian citizen. So I really don't know where you loyalty comes from. You and your parents betrayed your home country to immirate to Canada so they could earn a buck. So I don' t know where this patriotism comes from.

Damn, your radicalism is very scary...I always find radicalists quite hilarious sometimes, because they are so passionate to their claims that they become ignorant of everything around them. dochanmd is a prime example of this. He claims that my parents betrayed their home country to come to Canada just to earn a buck, so I should not be patriotic. Yet, unless he is Native American, his parents did the same to the US, yet he seems to be quite patriotic about the States.

-> yes, I will raise my kids in America, and they will thank me. I would never want to raise my future kids in Canada and force them into a hopeless future.

Good for you...just remember that when they wish to travel, if you ever let them leave the Land of the Free (as your hand goes to your heart), tell them to make sure that they tell people they are Canadian...if you havent noticed, many people around the world dont like Americans....shhhhh...its our little secret!

and I just KNOWWWWW you are DYING to find out why! Well, its because they want to take over the world and act like the world police and only act in their own interests. However, that has consequences to non-Americans. How bout all the armies that were trained in Latin AMerican countries by the US government, huh? THese armies were taught to kill and murder any opposition so US puppet regimes could be placed to further US interests....how bout that? Literally going into rural villages and killing EVERYONE in their way...using the harshest form of repression.... (e.g. Guatemala, Nicaragua) hmmm...CNN never talks about that I see. And then what happens decades later when the truth is revealed.....they just say...ooop, sorry (e.g. Vietnam) Americans are not always the freedom fighters that CNN portrays them to be. I can obviously tell that you are a science undergrad who probably just knows how to recite the Krebs cycle and knows nothing of the outside world....that is why I need to take a double major in science and politics, becuase I knew I did not want to be a science loser like yourself......kinda robotic...and from your posts in other forums, instead of analyzing the award ceremonies of rich superficial celebrity actors, why dont you open up a newspaper and analyze the world around you...stop living through the lives of celebrities (Im sure you are an avid watcher of Entertainment Tonight or Extra ) you are obviously not well-rounded....and making oscar predictions does not count...guess thats why you never made the Canadian med school cut!

-> notice how many Canadians have left Canada to go to the U.S.!
Heck, many Canadians go to the caribbean med schools, knowing that they many never be able to get back into Canada.
Heck some Canadians go to U.S. Osteopathic med schools, and therefore completely saying goodbye to canada forever (Osteopathic medicine is not recognized in Canada).

You are just talking about med schools...you are just bitter that you didnt achieve the marks to get in....many of my friends got into Canadian med schools...take it easy buddy..just face it, they are better than you! And plus, how many science students are there in Canadian undergrad universities?? Just say 10000 (just a number)...ANd how many of them want to be doctors..umm...I'd say 90%....so obviously most of them will not get in, because Canada does not need 9000 new doctors every year...remember you ignorant idiot, Canada's population is 35 millions, wheras the US is 250 million...obviously doctors are more needed over there....I just hope you have a great time with managed care!

America only wants people who will be patriots.
Stay in canada and shovel snow and collect unemployment insurance.

Yah and thats the problem. I just hope your kids grow up with this American rhetoric you are going to feed them and I Hope they feel the need to go serve their country in a war controlled by elites and I hope you face the harsh reality of American life when they come back in a casket.

ANd by the way...in New York and Boston, they are shovelling the same snow as I am, and the last time I checked on the American economy, also cashing in the same amount of unemployment insurance.

BY the way, the terror alert just turned Orange...oh my god....oh my god...run to the store...buy batteries and flashlights...the world is going to end....oh my god....

 

[moo]

The American gov't has nothing to do with the American people. You don't hate the American people because of the gov't. That's silly. Do you hate the British people because their leader decided to attack Iraq as well? I sure didn't think so.

You don't think the Canadian gov't feeds you propaganda too? (perish the thought) Stop and think for a moment. How many times have you heard from the Liberal media in Canada that some UN report came out saying Canada is a better place to live than America. Or that it's health care is better. Or about the Enron scandal (read: cruel cruel CEOs means all corporations are bad and should be banned). I'm not saying this stuff isn't true but there truly is some selective bias going on here. When was the last time you heard about American generosity. Did you know that Americans are some of the biggest donors in the world? Or how about how Americans are one of the most generous tippers and nicest tourists (survey released last year), while Canadians RANKED NEAR THE BOTTOM OF THE LIST. (And don't tell me it's all because of Americans with Canadian flags on their backpacks.)

Heck, all gov'ts feed their people propaganda! My gf grew up in China and she tells me all this stuff about how the gov't brain washed the people into thinking how Communism was the greatest thing.

All I'm saying is you can't judge a country's people by how its gov't acts. I don't agree with Bush and some of his ultra conservative policies but that doesn't make me hate Americans (which unfortunately is what a lot of Canadians have decided upon)

 

[docchanmd]

First of all it is nice to see people like moo and gupta willing to post on this topic, because from my experience most canadians are so clueless that they don't even no what to say.

Next gupta writes in his signature is: "Temple or Tufts Dental Class of 2008"

So this Gupta dude is obviously either attending a U.S. school or interested in doing so. Yet he has all this (very ignorant) ideas about Americans and America. The funny thingis that he (most likely) will move to the U.S. permanently, because most Canadians that study medicine abroad or in the U.S. face huge barriers when trying to come back to Canada. Most will never be able to get back into Canada. Fact.

anyhow. . .

consider a few points:

-> each year America holds a 'Green Card Lottery". Millions of people apply from damn near every country in the world. There are so many applicants that there is a less than 1% chance of winning a Green Card, and yet people still pay thousands of dollars and apply, year after year.

-> the only people who immigrate to Canada and ones who have been turned down by the U.S. or ones who are completely uninformed (like Gupta's parents). What a great future they have provided for him by settling in iceland . . . errr, I mean Canada. Poor boy has to go to the U.S. since there are no opportunties for him in Canada. The saddest thing is that Ontario is filled with hopeless families like Gupta's. Ask them, and I can gaurantee you they are so unhappy to be in Canada, but they stay out of desperation and necessity for their loser, sex deprived, video game playing children like mr. avin gupta.

-> yes, America has killed innocent people. I would never deny this. America has killed thousands (perhaps a total of millions) of innocent people in Chile, Panana, El Salvador, Grenada, Yugoslavia, Sudan, Japan, Viet Nam, Kosovo, Iraq, Palestine, Afghanistan, and this is by no means a comprehensive list.
But like moo points out, these are the actions of the Government.
Most Americans (I would say 60%-70%) are appalled by this (many times hidden wrong doings) and therefore we shall hope that in this coming election the country gets a President who will reflect the good of these peace lovers.

 

[Dr.BadVibes]

First of all it is nice to see people like moo and gupta willing to post on this topic, because from my experience most canadians are so clueless that they don't even no what to say.

and then he writes and says:

The funny thingis that he (most likely) will move to the U.S. permanently, because most Canadians that study medicine abroad or in the U.S. face huge barriers when trying to come back to Canada. Most will never be able to get back into Canada.

I find it funny once again that he is blaming me for being clueless, yet he makes claims like this. If you have noticed, dental school and medical school are not the same, and dentists who study in the US, can practice back in Canada with ease. Please stop making ignorant statments so blindly.

the only people who immigrate to Canada and ones who have been turned down by the U.S. or ones who are completely uninformed (like Gupta's parents). What a great future they have provided for him by settling in iceland . . . errr, I mean Canada. Poor boy has to go to the U.S. since there are no opportunties for him in Canada. The saddest thing is that Ontario is filled with hopeless families like Gupta's. Ask them, and I can gaurantee you they are so unhappy to be in Canada, but they stay out of desperation and necessity for their loser, sex deprived, video game playing children like mr. avin gupta.

Actually, my parents immigrated to Canada, not because they couldnt get into the States, but because my parents like Canadian people much better. And also, my family also has green cards to the US, so we the option of going anywhere, but we choose Canada and are not looking back. We own two Lexus cars, one BMW, one Infiniti (but its old) and about 4 houses in Toronto, plus one house in Boston...I think that Canada has treated my immigrant Indian family fine so far....wouldnt you agree??

So this Gupta dude is obviously either attending a U.S. school

As a matter of fact, I am going to a US dental school, because (i) I can get instate tuition and federal loans and (ii) I can get dual citizenship in 3 years, but I must stay withing the US, so I might as well get the citizenship and do dental school at the same time....so I hope I cleared that up for you....

I also find it funny that dochanmd will be going to the States for schooling, but will have to take out high-interest loans to pay for those private schools that he talks about giving him so many opportunities....have fun paying back your loans...I guess all those opportunities in the States are reserved for people with a lot of money...hmmmm.....

I just love it (and find it quite ironic) that someone who dislikes America such as me will have dual citizenship, while someone like yourself who kisses the flag every night does not! Isnt life great!!?!?!?

-> yes, America has killed innocent people. I would never deny this. America has killed thousands (perhaps a total of millions) of innocent people in Chile, Panana, El Salvador, Grenada, Yugoslavia, Sudan, Japan, Viet Nam, Kosovo, Iraq, Palestine, Afghanistan, and this is by no means a comprehensive list.
But like moo points out, these are the actions of the Government.
Most Americans (I would say 60%-70%) are appalled by this (many times hidden wrong doings) and therefore we shall hope that in this coming election the country gets a President who will reflect the good of these peace lovers.

Yes you are right, this is the government. BUt werent you bashing Canada on its corrupt politicians....hmmm...change of heart I see!!! And also, you make the American people seem so innocent here...first of all, whenever a president goes to war, his approval ratings are always high...Majority of Americans always support a war, either because they are typical Americans who like to fight and take over, or (b) have been brainwashed by the spin-doctoring that goes on by the government. (e.g. we must go into Iraq because of WMD....now....umm..sorry, but our intelligence was wrong)

SO if the American people are so against these wars, why is America constantly fighting with someone? If they have killed innocent people like you have agreed on, why havent governments been held accountable to this?? Stop reading your science textbooks and try and answer this....Krebs cycle aint gonna help you in the real world buddy!

And I never said I hate American people....I just hate the American mentality....and this is what makes me so proud to be north of the border!

And by the way moo...if you are going to judge this on a survey done by who tips the best, that is quite funny. Actually in most countries, tipping is not the norm and tipping only occurs in highly saturated tourist traps that Americans seem to always goto...but if you actually goto a local place, and ask real local people (not bartenders in Cancun), you will notice that not many people have a favourable reaction to an American, in the majority of the world!

their loser, sex deprived, video game playing children like mr. avin gupta.

Loser, eh?? Hmm..lets see here....Ive independently travelled to over 25 countries in my life, hitchiked across the United States with a friend, lived in Europe for a year, completed an Honours Bachelors of Science Degree Majoring in Chemistry/Political Science/Latin American studies at the University of Toronto, and off the dental school next year to get a DMD degree and a Masters in Public Health...and Im only 22 years old...

Dude, Ive done it all, and I got much more years ahead of me....Im only 22!! I never tell people this, because I dont like to brag to others, but you are so stupid and ignorant that I had to give you a glimpse into an actual life, not a University of Toronto loser like yourself...so you tell me who is more well rounded!

But I will admit...when it comes to Oscar Predictions and knowing which celebrity is going out with who....I cant compete with you there...you take the cake!

 

[Dr.BadVibes]

And here is a picture of the Japanese girl I went out with two years ago (she took it with her cellphone, you know how the Japanese are with their electronics!!)

 

[docchanmd]

.

 

[moo]

And by the way moo...if you are going to judge this on a survey done by who tips the best, that is quite funny. Actually in most countries, tipping is not the norm and tipping only occurs in highly saturated tourist traps that Americans seem to always goto...but if you actually goto a local place, and ask real local people (not bartenders in Cancun), you will notice that not many people have a favourable reaction to an American, in the majority of the world!

I'm not judging anyone. I'm just using this as an example of how the Canadian media can be biased in not reporting things that are not favorable to what they believe in (the superiority of Canada). Whether this is actually true or not (when applied to the world population) is irrelevant to my argument. Also, anyone can say that if "one goes to actually a local place one will notice that not many will have a favorable reaction to an American." I can make wild claims based on what I believe too. Doesn't make it right.

This is going to be my last post on this thread because this discussion is going nowhere. It is clear we have different opinions and I don't think that resorting to personal attacks is going to resolve anything. Have a good night.

 

[Dr.BadVibes]

Well, I was quite suprised at your response here....I am pretty proud of the things i have done, and I will always have the mentality to live life to the fullest, which I believe I have so far.

I still think your thoughts of Canada and the US are very ignorant, uneducated, and you will learn your lesson one day. TO be honest, if you dont appreciate what Canada is and stands for, then by all means leave because you will not be missed.

And Moo, I am not brainwashed by the Canadian media by any means...I am an active reader of academic journal articles from around the world, read various newssites such as CNN, CBC, AP, Reuters. The facts speak for itself that Canada is a great nation that has no international enemies and is one of the most respected nations throughout the world. Sometimes you and dochanmd have to stop thinking about yourself and what a country can do FOR YOU....and have to start thinking of how lucky you are to be even in a first world country and to always think of people that do not have this honour and I believe Canada addresses this problem much more than the US.

After all, you are going into a profession that requires a great deal of compassion. I just hope you learn one day, and I really think you should really get out of the library and your biology textbook to see the outside world. I used to be as ignorant and radical as you, but I was also in high school. Then I travelled, met many people from around the world from various cultures, and got educated which allowed me to critically assess, and this is why I truly appreciate what Canada is and I hope it continues to be. However, like I said I can critically assess, and the recent actions by the RCMP and Canadian officials is astonishing, and makes me believe that because of Canadians such as yourself, we are slowly moving towards the ideas of the United States, which would eventually lead to the loss of all the wonderful things I have said about Canada above.

I hope we remember Canadians such as Lester B Pearson who has been Canada's only winner of the NObel Peace Prize. What did he win it for? He created the idea of peacekeeping, and even today, Canada has been at the forefront of UN peacekeeping missions, being more active than any other country a prime example of thinking about others. IF you have been to Ottawa, you will notice a big part of the city centre is dedicated to the notion of peacekeeping...this is what, we as Canadians have decided to be our national identity. I guess thats why when I travel, I get so much love for being Canadian. However, if we our officials continue to act like the way they are (e.g. profiling Muslims, and the whole Arar case, a case you would expect from the US and not Canada), then we are on the path of being no better than the US. Think about it dochanmd and moo, beause you really are taking this country for granted. Your views on Canadian races (such as whites and indians) is appalling, and if I were to take the essay that you have written to any academic from any country in the World, they would not even address it due to its ignorance.

Oh yah one more thing...from your username, I can safely assume that you are asian. Just imagine if you were Muslim? Would you have the same thoughts? WOuld you want to eagerly move to the US and be profiled solely because of your race and the country you are from? I assume not. Because you are asian, everything is cool for you, at the moment.....but just say in 30 years, the US has a war with China (which is not out of the question for sure, if you remember the whole spyplane fiasco before 9/11 and everyone thought China will be the new Cold War, and I can honestly say it will be when all this terroism stuff becomes old news), and then Chinese people in the US (well, actually all asian people will be assumed to be Chinese) will start going through the same racism/profiling stuff that Muslim people are currently going through. Its a whole cycle of hate down there...from the Irish settlers in the 19th century, to the Russians in the Cold War period, to the Muslims today, and what next??? The biggest communist country in the world, China? Very possible my friend! Then we will see if your "Essay on Canada" changes.

The American mentality is one about individualism..and has been since the arrival of the Puritans...every man for himself...you can easily read this in American literature if you wanted to. Just read American authors from the 1700s to today and you will see one underlying common theme in their messages...Americans are about individualism.....and you can easily see how this is reflected in their private healthcare system....if you got the money, than come on in, if you dont, than there is the door....one cannot be blind to these realities.

The question you must answer is if this is right or wrong? Hopefully as a future health professional, you would say it is wrong....however, with your dreams going to the US as a doctor, i hope you realize that you are just going to be a coporate pawn of some HMO......

Of course you could argue that in Canada, you are a pawn for the government and yes that is true. But who would you rather work for? An HMO whose sole goal is to maximize its profit margin, or a government who would be more likely dedicated to the well-being of its citizenry??

My overall point is, stop thinking about yourself, and start thinking about others. I can see from your posts that you are going into medicine for the money and prestige and that is sad, pathetic and horrible to the profession. I just hope you wake up and open you eyes up to the real world.

 

[docchanmd]

Mr. Avin Gupta,

Truth of the matter is that the things you accuse me of, are in fact what your are guilty of yourself. You say I am in it for the money.

but you wrote about yourself:

We own two Lexus cars, one BMW, one Infiniti (but its old) and about 4 houses in Toronto, plus one house in Boston...I think that Canada has treated my immigrant Indian family fine so far....wouldnt you agree??

Sounds like, it is you who is the money hungry, materialistic, conceited show-off. Not just regarding that comment, but also with regard to all the 'so-called' sexual fantasies you have had. Good God, you need help little boy.

I hate to rain on your parade. But, Canada does not care about you. Canada does not care about any of it's immigrants. They simply give out immigration (to educated professionals) because they know these foreigners will come to Canada, bring money with them and then work the minimum wage jobs in Canada, which will in turn help the Canadian economy. This is what immigration to Canada is all about my friend!

Have you ever had a full time job in Canada? Have you ever had to work in a factory making $7/hour? Have you had to ever fully support yourself? Pay rent, bills, phone, food, for yourself and for a spouse and children? I doubt it.

You are a young spoiled brat who has always lived off his mommy and daddy's money, or loan money perhaps. You don't know reality for even one second. Certainly not the reality of Canada.
Heck there are lots of countries in the world that are 'really great' if you are just attending school there and living off your parents money.

Who is ignorant here? You yourself are headed to the United States!! If Canada is so great, then why not stay in Canada? But noooo, realizing that there are no opportunities for you in Canada, you are going to go to the U.S., and yet you say things to me like "leave Canada, you won't be missed".

Yes I will leave Canada, in fact I am trying my best, doing whatever it takes to permanently leave this sh*thole. My essays (that started this forum) have been agreed upon by dozens of Canadians. In fact, fifty thousand Canadians leave Canada each year! Many of them for the reasons I have outlined.

You are from the east (India/Pakistan). That is who you are. You are NOT a Canadian. Nor will you ever be considered a Canadian. For the rest of your life, when people ask you "where are you from" and you answer "Canada", the very next question they will ask is "no, where are you from originally".

This is my last post in this topic, because it is clear that you are absolutely confused as to who you are and where you belong. My hope for you is that one day you will grow up and learn the truth, instead of reacting on emotion and limited knowledge. Very sad.

 

[Dr.BadVibes]

Truth of the matter is that the things you accuse me of, are in fact what your are guilty of yourself. You say I am in it for the money.

HHAHA...nice one...Ill give you credit on that spoiled brat comment cause I sure made it sound like that.

Yes I will admit that my family is well-off, but this was not inherited. It was from my father working really hard in CANADA that abled him to do all these things.

And me being spoiled??? hHAHAHAH...actually, no! My parents are the ones who like all that stuff like houses and cars...that is not me at all. If you actually met me you would know that I personally dont have a car because I take public transport everywhere....I dont have a cellphone, digital camera, videogame system....no luxuries....

and when I travel, my parents perhaps give me 30% of what I spend...the rest is my money earned by myself...and plus, when you are sleeping in villages, benches and hitchiking, money doesnt seem like a problem....perhaps at a nice 5 star resort in Cancun it matters, but that is not my style.

And about me following the money?? Ummm...no...didnt I mention that Im also getting a Masters in Public Health??? Well Im going to use that degree with my dental skills to do field work in developing nations....dentistry allows me to do this, while having a secure job/family life back in Canada....Im actually going to Costa Rica this summer to work as an intern for the government working on its health policy, cause this will be my future field......nice try buddy!

Not just regarding that comment, but also with regard to all the 'so-called' sexual fantasies you have had. Good God, you need help little boy.

Actually, any guy I know fantasizes about that stuff as well, but I've actually lived through it....all my guy friends have given me much credit about my doings....

I hate to rain on your parade. But, Canada does not care about you. Canada does not care about any of it's immigrants. They simply give out immigration (to educated professionals) because they know these foreigners will come to Canada, bring money with them and then work the minimum wage jobs in Canada, which will in turn help the Canadian economy. This is what immigration to Canada is all about my friend!

Once again, you make it seem like immigrants who come to the US will have it made living in pure luxury with a cushion job....far from the truth my friend...you talk a lot about immigrants from Canada, but how bout we go to the other side of the border??? Huh?? How many Mexican immigrants enter the US to work in factories or housemaids???? Do they ahve it made??? Well, perhaps compared to Mexico, yes...but they arent living in the luxury you make the US seem to be, I'll tell you that! Ever heard of Spanish ghettos...huh???

Have you ever had a full time job in Canada? Have you ever had to work in a factory making $7/hour? Have you had to ever fully support yourself? Pay rent, bills, phone, food, for yourself and for a spouse and children? I doubt it.

Actually, Ive only worked summer jobs, because I dedicate my life to other things such as academics, travelling, and just enjoying life. Yes, I will agree that im in a position than a lot of people I know, but you seem to think education is free in the US or something...HAHHAHAHA....nice one! What about all those Americans who have to work multiple jobs to put their kids through private schools, huh???

For aguments sake, we can easily assume that going to the best University probably is proportional to success, right? Lets say Harvard and University of Toronto are the best in their respective countries.

Tuition at Harvard: $25000 US/year
Tuition at Toronto: $3000 US/year

SO you tell me which system enables a person to have success on a equal playing ground. Who rewards hard work more?? Or maybe perhaps for people with money, the Harvard route is the way to go...like your best friend George W. Bush who cant even spell, yet has a Harvard degree....

And I know you are going to go blah blah blah about medicine and law and blah blah blah......well Ive already told you that 90% of science students want to do medicine, but the demand for that many doctors is not there...so when you talk about lack of opportunities, it only relates to the medical field, because EVERYONE wants it.

However, if you ask a science professor in Canada about the opportunities for someone with a science degree excluding medicine and dentistry...than they will give you many options you can have.....Opportunities are there....you are just looking for the easy route to having the luxury cars and big houses...

You are a young spoiled brat who has always lived off his mommy and daddy's money, or loan money perhaps. You don't know reality for even one second. Certainly not the reality of Canada.
Heck there are lots of countries in the world that are 'really great' if you are just attending school there and living off your parents money.

So are you telling me that a poor person in the US is better off than a poor person in Canada??? HAHHAHAAHHA!! Now that is not only ignorant, but deserves special praise as the most idiotic statement I have ever heard. Heard of social programs?? Compare a US ghetto to a Canadian ghetoo....I have....dude, you are very funnY!!

Who is ignorant here? You yourself are headed to the United States!! If Canada is so great, then why not stay in Canada? But noooo, realizing that there are no opportunities for you in Canada, you are going to go to the U.S., and yet you say things to me like "leave Canada, you won't be missed".

I think Ive already mentioned that i have a greencard, and that I can get dual citizenship....and plus, Im coming back after 4 years....this has already been stated....remember, I dont mind going to America, but when it comes to raising a family, byeeee!

Yes I will leave Canada, in fact I am trying my best, doing whatever it takes to permanently leave this sh*thole

Dude, Ive showed your essay to many people and we just laugh....everyone I know is in agreement that you are just a med school wannabe/reject that just couldnt cut it in Canada and are following the big bucks down south...good for you

You are from the east (India/Pakistan). That is who you are. You are NOT a Canadian. Nor will you ever be considered a Canadian. For the rest of your life, when people ask you "where are you from" and you answer "Canada", the very next question they will ask is "no, where are you from originally"

Than who is Canadian?


Dude...you have constantly said the same things over and over again with no substance to your argument....I have rebutted everything you said with a sound response, but it is never addressed....you just resort back to your original argument that Canada is a sh*thole, which also did not have any sound backing.

Anyways, we all know the truth that you are just bitter at the system which is designed to keep idiots you out of our medical field. Thank God for that!

 

[Clue]

I have been on this website a long time and have never once seen anybody post a picture of his girlfriend. Classic!
One more piece of docchanmd misinformation that I would like to correct: graduates of US Osteopathic schools can practice in Canada.

 

[redshifteffect]

Originally posted by Clue
I have been on this website a long time and have never once seen anybody post a picture of his girlfriend. Classic!
One more piece of docchanmd misinformation that I would like to correct: graduates of US Osteopathic schools can practice in Canada.

But they are not eligible for the first round of CaRMS, and its not as easy to get back as if you were from a US Allopathic school.

 

[flighterdoc]

What an interesting discussion!

I visited a friend in Kingston, ON over the christmas holiday. I spent 3 weeks there, visiting (as well) Ottawa, Quebec, Toronto, Hamilton, and Montreal. My friend is a medical professional of 20+ years who recently got a job in a non-medical field, for the Canadian government.

It was interesting. Being a retired USAF Officer, I was interested in visiting the Royal Military College (the "west point" of Canada). It was surreal. It's not a "military" school at all, as near as I understand it. It was more of a college with a lot of statues around. Queens University had the usual assortment of slackers and ner-do-wells, as well.

The way that history is handled is funny, too. In case the point passed the Canadians, the war of 1812 (between the US and the british) was pretty much a win for the US. The memorials at the RMC, Ft. Frontenac, etc seeme to think that it was perhaps a win for the brits, or at least a draw. Sorry, no.

My friend finally gave me a book on Canadian military history to read - after reading it, I still can't figure out why Canada's military is as screwed up as it is, except that canadians dont care to have one - so, they should probably quit wasting the time and money on having a pretend military.

The whole bilingual thing is simply insane. The government of Canada doesn't have a lot of resources to start with, and they spend a huge portion on bilingual everything. According to a couple of military staff officers I visited with, a substantial (5-10%) of the defence budget in Canada is wasted on bilingual everything. It's so bad that Canadians can decide neither on what the words are to their national anthem, OR what language to sing it in. But, since the only time they sing it is at hockey games (drunk), it doesn't matter much.

I saw a LOT more pan handlers on the streets of Kingston than I expected. Kingston and Santa Clarita have about the same population, and I can recall only two or three hustlers asking for money in Santa Clarita - every block in downtown Kingston seemed to have two or three. In Los Angeles (population 3 Million+) I can go days and days without being approached.

As far as prejudice, try going to Quebec (the hinterlands, say the south-east shore of the St Lawrence) and stopping in a store. Nobody speaks english, their french is awful (I can get by in Paris, but not Quebec?), and go out of their way to be a-holes to anglophones. And stupid? How many francophone homes have a book in them? Except for a bible, perhaps - very few. They're prejudiced against everyone, even their own countrymen.

The weather was certainly OK, at least while I was there. Of course, as soon as I left, the temp dropped to -20F or lower. But, further north the weather is even worse - which is why most Canadians (who "hate" the US so much) live along the US border - check out a picture of North America at night, you can find one at NASA.

As far as culture, I did find an excellent pub in Kingston - the Kingston Brewing Company. And I think that Tim Hortons should be on every corner in Los Angeles - no attitude, just good coffee, in and out in under a minute. I was disappointed to not see a mountie, my friend pointed out some cops she claimed were mounties, but no red uniforms and pistols with strings, so I knew better (lol).

BTW, Southern California (Ventura and Los Angeles Counties, in particular) have more Canadians than any cities in Canada except Van and Toronto... Not good. Thats NOT counting the snowbirds that visit slab city every winter (and go buy their drugs in Mexico).

Anyway, I enjoyed my trip to Canada. I'd never been to eastern Canada before. I hope to visit again, although my friend and I will visit Death Valley this summer - her request, Canadians are insane!

So, if Canadians want to immigrate to the US, and become valuable members of our society, welcome!

If Canadians (except I guess Quebec) want to become the next 10 states in the United States, thats OK with me too, welcome! If the Quebecois want to join as well, learn english (or spanish), and learn to drive. I drove 8000 miles on this trip and the only time I almost had an accident was when a car with Quebec plates (in Indiana) made an unsafe lane change and almost hit me.

 

[QM6]

Amusing thread. But at the end of the day, I think the only thing we can all say is vive la difference.

There's this hilarious comic segment in Canada (well, we Canadians think it's hilarious), Rick Mercer's "Talking to Americans". Here's the Wikipedia explanation below - just wondering if there was an American equivalent anyone knows about?

"It consisted in interviewing Americans on the street and supposedly duping them into agreeing with ridiculous statements about Canada. The intent was to satirize American ignorance of its neighbour. Examples included Americans persuaded to congratulate Canada on legalizing insulin or adopting the twenty-four-hour day; to exhort the Canadian government to install an air conditioner to preserve the National Igloo; or to agree that the U.S. should bomb Saskatchewan or send ground troops into Gilles Duceppe. In fact, some of the Americans interviewed seemed just to be playing along, although professors at distinguished American universities seemed always to be taken in by absurdities like the Saskatchewan seal hunt.

"The most famous segment featured Mr. Mercer in 2000 asking then-presidential candidate George W. Bush ? who had previously stated that "you can't stump me on world leaders" ? for his reaction to an endorsement by Canadian Prime Minister "Jean Poutine". Bush responded diplomatically and said he looked forward to working together with his future counterpart to the north. However, the prime minister's name (back then) was Jean Chr?tien; poutine is a French-Canadian fast food dish of french fries and cheese curd, and also was potentially inspired by recent jokes about Russian president Vladimir Putin who has a similar name. Also, Chr?tien had not endorsed any candidate at the time and, in any event, it does not behoove the head of a neighboring country's government to take such a stand regarding U.S. presidential races. Bush's opponent, Vice President Al Gore, also fell victim to Mercer, when he was asked about the Canadian capital Toronto (it is actually Ottawa)."

 

[prettymean]

Hi I am also a Canadian who is currently in an American medical school. I immigrated to Canada fully thinking it would be "just like the States". But after toiling in Canada for few years, I realized that probably I should go back south. I am not bashing Canada, but I do have to say that Canada is not as good as America in terms of its system and probably (I'll probably get flamed for this) itys people.

Gupta, I am not trying to say you are lying or anything, but you mentioned that you want to go to Temple, Tufts and possibly Columbia because of the "in state tuition" . However, the fact is that all three schools are PRIVATE schools and have no such things as in state tuition. Also, from what you posted, it seems like you did not spend more than 6 months out of 1 calendar year in the States. So theoretically, you can not keep your green card in effect. Thus, I don't know how you are going to get your dual citizenship in 3 years.

Also calling people who differ in opinion from yours "idiot" is quite rude. Don't you think?

Sincerely,

 

[prettymean]

QM6 , the truth is that Americans can care less who our Prime Minister is or where is our capital. That is why they don't know. Sadly, we use that to entertain ourselves pretending Americans are actually less intelligent than we are.

 

[moo]

I know I said I wouldn't post any more on this thread, but it's nice to see some saner people posting on this thread.

QM6 , the truth is that Americans can care less who our Prime Minister is or where is our capital. That is why they don't know. Sadly, we use that to entertain ourselves pretending Americans are actually less intelligent than we are.

If Canadians want more recognition from America maybe they should take a bigger role in world politics.

I'd also entertain the notion that while 99% of Canadians know who the US president is, as many don't know who the Secretary of State of the US is, someone who is just as influential, if not more, in world politics.

And how many average Canadians can actually identify some of the bigger states on a map? How many Canadians actually know what state Chicago is in (My friend, who is doing a Master's at McGill sure didn't know)? How about Little Rock? Boston? Denver?

It goes both ways.

 

[Dr.BadVibes]

Gupta, I am not trying to say you are lying or anything, but you mentioned that you want to go to Temple, Tufts and possibly Columbia because of the "in state tuition" . However, the fact is that all three schools are PRIVATE schools and have no such things as in state tuition. Also, from what you posted, it seems like you did not spend more than 6 months out of 1 calendar year in the States. So theoretically, you can not keep your green card in effect. Thus, I don't know how you are going to get your dual citizenship in 3 years.

Good observation...im suprised no one else spotted that....actually Im most probably going to Temple, because it is semi-private and I can get instate tuition over there...Tufts is out of the question, and I would only consider Columbia because of its amazing global public health program. So I should really update my signature. And about the greencard, Ive had it for 3 years now, but since I went to live in Europe I got a re-entry permit which allows me to live outside the States for 2 years and keep my greencard....but since that is expiring, I'll live in the States, and get only one year credit towards my citizenship....so I have 2 years already, thus 3 years more for citizenship eligibility....

Also calling people who differ in opinion from yours "idiot" is quite rude. Don't you think?

I dont call this guy an idiot because he has different opinions. I love it when I meet people with different opinions cause it leads to a great debate, which I enjoy. However, these different opinions have to be intelligent and well-thought out, which this essay is not. If I said all Black people are criminals, would you call me an idiot? I hope so.

And for the rest of you...if you are going to use military and medicine as a way to generalize the lack of opportunities in Canada, then go ahead....just not seeing the whole picture.

 

[driedcaribou]

Originally posted by moo

I'd also entertain the notion that while 99% of Canadians know who the US president is, as many don't know who the Secretary of State of the US is, someone who is just as influential, if not more, in world politics.

And how many average Canadians can actually identify some of the bigger states on a map? How many Canadians actually know what state Chicago is in (My friend, who is doing a Master's at McGill sure didn't know)? How about Little Rock? Boston? Denver?

It goes both ways.

As a Canadian by birth, I fully agree with moo's points.

I've visited the US dozens of times and have lived there for several years.

I find that many Canadians engage in blind bashing of the US out of sheer nationalism which I find disgusting and hypocritical.

Many Canadians who are proud of Canada don't even have enough knowledge of Canadian history and American history or even current events to back up their argument why Canada is superior to the US.

 

[QM6]

Hey prettymean,

At first glance I'd agree with you, that the draw of "Talking to Americans" is simply that it makes mean fun of Americans. But when you actually watch the show, the vast majority of the amusing stuff isn't because of not knowing some detail about Canada, but just the sheer folly of the question itself. Like legalising insulin, or moving to a 24-hour day. Put anyone in that situation, American or otherwise, and it's funny. When any world leader - particularly one who claimed not to be stumpable on other leader's names - goofs about the PM of his next-door neighbour and largest trading partner, it's funny.

That's kind of why I was asking about if there was an American equivalent of "Talking to Americans". I imagine there wouldn't be much material of Canadians falling for stuff like the Arizona seal hunt or being ignorant about American facts and trivia, but more of the sheer "duh!" humour. Which leads me to...

Hey moo,

I'm afraid I have to disagree with you on the ignorance (I don't mean to use the word with any negative connotation there) going both ways. Canadians are much more aware of American places, politics, history and personalities than vice-versa, that's just a factor of American media crossing the border. (And yes, Canadians do get into American geography, history and literature in elementary and high school, but I don't think that's the main way we keep tabs on the US.) You don't see Americans getting into stuff like Degrassi or CBC news or other fine Canadian programming, so of course Americans' knowledge of Canada will be limited. So what? Nothing I'm going to get into a fit over.

And yeah, perhaps our foreign policy doesn't win much points or grab much attention with the US. So what? It wins points with Canadians and Canadian interests abroad, like it's supposed to. Again, no sleep lost here.

The traditional relationship between the US and Canada is that Canada doesn't get much, if any, attention from Americans. That's why I find this thread so damn amusing - seeing all this attention for once! All this digging in on the Canada-bashing, all based on anecdotal or superficial treatments of the subject.

For example, to bash our tax system and social safety net because it just throws money to people on welfare, misses the point entirely. To say Canada has "no culture" means you're looking in the wrong place (or that you're looking too hard)... it's the Classic Canadian Cultural Conundrum, no one ever figures it out, most Canadians included. I mean, I did Canadian Studies in undergrad, and it only barely makes sense.

I don't think Canadians and Americans are all that different. We get on pretty well. A lot of our values are pretty much the same - not all, but a lot. And it's because we're so alike, that the differences we do have become so shockingly apparent. But when we do diverge, suffice it to say, we'll do our things our way, you'll do your things your way.

 

[moo]

QM6 I appreciate your insightful comments. But I can't agree with you here:

And yes, Canadians do get into American geography, history and literature in elementary and high school, but I don't think that's the main way we keep tabs on the US.

Do we really learn about American geography and history in high school? I certainly didn't. At least it wasn't in any of the required social studies courses I took in high school. I don't think there's anything wrong with that though. If you're in Canada you should be expected to learn about Canada, and not about America.


Americans do know a lot about Canadians. Maybe it's because I am in an academic environment with highly educated people, but when my classmates found out I was from Canada, they were all pretty receptive and seemed to know quite a bit about Canada. My best friend here is very in tune with Canadian politics (even knew when we got a new PM). We've had numerous discussions on the Canadian health care system in our ethics and health care policy classes.

With respect to culture, I don't know whether this is a function of the type of friends I had in Canada (high school friends, immature, unwilling to grow up) versus the friends I have in med school now but it just seems that my friends here are a lot more "cultured" in that they know a lot about art, classical music, etc. Again, this is probably a huge leap of faith but judging from the friends I have here, with the ones back home, it seems that Americans are indeed more "cultured." Perhaps this is a product of their "liberal arts" education, where in college they take all these arts-type courses, whereas in Canada, once you enter college you are forced to take a very narrowly focused course of study. As an example, I don't think I took more than 6 arts courses, simply because I did not have room for more in my program.

And as for Canadian culture itself, I'm not sure what you can define that as. Americans have hamburgers, apple pie, Hollywood, "all those modern buildings" (as a couple in Ireland once told me), etc. There really isn't a "Canadian dish," you know what I mean? Canada has hockey, but is hockey really still a Canadian game? The rest of the world has caught up and the US did beat Canada in the WJs this past year.

 

[Dr.BadVibes]

Americans do know a lot about Canadians. Maybe it's because I am in an academic environment with highly educated people, but when my classmates found out I was from Canada, they were all pretty receptive and seemed to know quite a bit about Canada. My best friend here is very in tune with Canadian politics (even knew when we got a new PM). We've had numerous discussions on the Canadian health care system in our ethics and health care policy classes.

Actually, my friend and I wanted to see if this was true, so every American traveller we met while we were backpacking, we asked them a simple question, "what is the capital of Canada"....we were astonished by the lack of knowledge from these people....only about 3-4 people got it right.....there was even one girl who did her masters in political science at Columbia and she didnt know....gimme a break!

Again, this is probably a huge leap of faith but judging from the friends I have here, with the ones back home, it seems that Americans are indeed more "cultured." Perhaps this is a product of their "liberal arts" education, where in college they take all these arts-type courses, whereas in Canada, once you enter college you are forced to take a very narrowly focused course of study. As an example, I don't think I took more than 6 arts courses, simply because I did not have room for more in my program.

I dunno, I did a Honours Bachelors degree in Chemistry, Political Science and Latin American studies in Toronto....I dont think that is a narrowly focused course of study.....

By the way QM6, your last post was very good...well said!

 

[QM6]

Hey moo,

Even though my main point (as you quoted earlier) was that Canadians' knowledge of America is by far via cultural and media exposure and not formal education, we actually had a fair amount of American exposure in school.

We in Saskatchewan had to know the 50 states and their capitals in grade 4 "Sciences humaines" (I was in French immersion, that's what we called history and geography). In grade 11 was supposed to be "Histoire du monde" (I'm sure you can figure that one out), but about 75% of that was American history - it was just way more interesting, since Americans have all those wars! Our English literature classes all through high school had lots of American works, esp in my AP English class (since that's an American exam).

(Aside - Yeah, I grew up in Saskatchewan... seeing that post above about the horror of having to practice in the Canadian Prairies was absolutely hilarious. Damn! I mean, you guys make it sound like it's barren inhuman Siberia or something. Oh, the dread, the horror of life in Saskatchewan! Guys - it's not bad at all.

There's about a million people in SK, and while that doesn't sound like much, when Canada's only about 30 million we carry a lot more relative clout and importance than if we were, say, a state of a million people in the American midwest. Little prairie Saskatchewan invented socialised medicare, and the rest of Canada jumped on the idea. Now it's one of the things that brings all Canadians together.

It's hardly a desolate, boring place to be - far from it. In these parts, it's Americans that drive up to shop and revel in the "big city urban-ness" of it all. But I digress.)

But like I said, more practically speaking, our factual and cultural knowledge of the US is simply by the programmes that come across the border. We know that your Sheriffs and Judges are elected, by watching stuff like American Justice and Law and Order. We see people like Governor Pataki doing a press conference on CNN, and catch that the State Capitol's in Albany, not NYC.

We even catch local stuff, like when Eminem's movie "8 Mile" came out, I knew the reference, 'cause our NBC affiliate's from Detroit: WDIV, Where Local News Comes First. 90% of Canadians live within 100Km of the border, so we catch a lot of your local airwaves.

It just doesn't work the other way. Canadian media exposure and penetration into the US is practically nil. Moo, I'm afraid I think your sampling of Americans knowledgeable about Canada is biased in the academic setting. I hate having to use personal experience to back my argument up (usually on SDN bringing up anecdotes only disproves anything you say), but from my own travels most Americans are politely clueless on Canada. Usually friendly, sometimes even (unnecessarily) apologetic, but clueless all the same.

Americans in border states, New England, the West Coast and even Florida often know more than most (What's the fourth largest Canadian city? Los Angeles - all those expats. What's the third largest Quebec city in the winter? Miami - all those vacationers.). Some cities like San Antonio or Shreveport might vaguely know Canada from the CFL's ill-fated expansion back in the 90s. But outside of these, most have no idea. Nothing I hold against anyone, but it's just the way it is. Out of sight, out of mind.

Another part of it is simply our differing perceived roles in the world. When the US acts on the world stage, it's in a very grand and conspicuous manner. The State of the Union address is as much for Americans as it is the rest of the globe. Canadians are much more low-key: our Throne Speech doesn't get much press abroad, and our international contributions usually happen in the context of another international body that gets the credit.

Over 500 million people around the world have experienced peacekeeping at work, but the laurels go to the UN, less so Canada. Canada led the way in a global ban on land mines, establishing an international court of justice, ensuring accessible drugs for the Third World, the list goes on; again, first billing goes to international bodies, not Canada. That's just the way we work - we believe in international cooperation and multilateralism; single-handedly waving our colours and getting our name out isn't a big deal.

Anyhoo, Canadian culture... here's a crash course on how I try to get it. To understand it, you have to throw out your preconceptions on what culture is and what it's for. Like you said moo, American culture is easy to evoke as the sum of its products - apple pie, Hollywood, burgers. It's an exclusionary definition - these things are American and nothing else. Similarly, most other cultural imagery is exclusive: baguettes and floppy berets are exclusively French. Buttered scones and tea is exclusively British.

Canadian culture, on the other hand, is defined by inclusion. It's the idea that all cultures can be "Canadian", simply by virtue of geography and citizenship. Those of you who don't buy this argument (which is most people) don't, because while other "conventional" cultures rally their members by uniformity, Canada unifies in diversity. No one else has the same approach. (Well, maybe Singapore and Switzerland to some extent - not nearly to the same level we take it though.) It's an idea where we don't have to simplify our identity into one national dish, or one national sport, or even one national language - and we're perfectly fine and secure with that.

What we all do have in common, is an understanding that we're all part of something bigger than our immediate communities. Someone famous, prolly someone Canadian, said that we're a "community of communities". Everyone has their place, and everyone has a role to play in making the whole stronger. Programmes like socialised medicare, education benefits or resource equalisation stem from this vision of community. It's a vision so strong and so common to everyone, that even when things look rough for these systems, everyone still supports them through and through.

Sound vague? I think so too. But it works! We all manage to get by without too much angst over who we are. We know we're not British or French, and we definitely know we're not American... it all just makes sense.

And avingupta, thanks for the props!

(And anyone who actually read this insanely-long post... thanks for reading.)

 

[canuck MD]

Double props to you QM6 (...even if you do go to Queens he..he..he....We kicked your butts at MedGames....)

L8R

Ottawa Meds 2006 Rule hehehe

 

[QM6]

Oh, one more thing, I just caught this post (insert joke about Canadians being slow on the take):

Originally posted by flighterdoc
The way that history is handled is funny, too. In case the point passed the Canadians, the war of 1812 (between the US and the british) was pretty much a win for the US. The memorials at the RMC, Ft. Frontenac, etc seeme to think that it was perhaps a win for the brits, or at least a draw. Sorry, no.

Just an aside (and not to start a war here!), the way we learn the War of 1812, it was an American attempt to finally, utterly conquer Canada. Seeing as how we're still here, we figure we won. And when you figure at the time, the US had about 7 and a half million people, Canada about 500 thousand - even more lopsided than it is today (300 v 30 million) - we won good. =)

The sticking point is this - over the course of the war, land went back and forth. We burned down Washington, then later you burned down York (Toronto). Quid pro quo, until 1814 with the Treaty of Ghent. By that point, we'd actually won a bunch of land, and British territory extended south of where it was before the war started. But under the Treaty, we agreed to return the borders back to the status quo of 1811, and the British gave up any further claims to American soil. So you could say that while the US lost the war, we lost the peace.

Obviously I don't have my high school history texts anymore (and if I did they'd be in French anyway), but there's this Canadian book "Bastards and Boneheads" by Will Ferguson that captures the difference in the way we both perceive North American history. Of course, being the busy med students you are, you're not actually going to go and find it, so why don't I just quote it here:

The most dramatic encounter of the entire war occurred just outsite of Boston harbour, when, in a titanic Clash of Bastards, the British frigate Shannon, under Captain Philip Broke, met the newly refitted American warship Chesapeake, under Captain James Lawrence. In a gesture full of wartime swagger, the British captain Broke issued a formal challenge:

'As the Chesapeake appears now ready for sea, I request you will do me the favour to meet the Shannon with her and try the fortune of our respective flags. Choose your terms but let us meet.'

Lawrence's sense of honour would not allow Broke's invitation to go unanswered. On June 1, 1813, the Americans sailed out to meet the Shannon. And so began one of the greatest single-ship battles in maritime history.

The Shannon crashed in alongside the Chesapeake, and Broke's men swarmed over the sides and onto the American deck. In just 15 minutes of sabre sparks and musket fire, more than 220 men were either killed or wounded. Lawrence died in battle, and Broke was seriously wounded. But under the dauntless Nova Scotian seaman William Wallis, the Shannon's men captured the Chesapeake and towed it back to Halifax, where crowds lined the shore to cheer their triumphant return.

From the battle of the Shannon and the Chesapeake came Lawrence's famous last words. As he lay dying, he cried out, 'Tell the men to fire faster and not to give up the ship; fight her till she sinks.' And from this came the motto of the US navy: 'Don't give up the ship!' (The obvious irony that Lawrence's men most certainly did give up the ship, and in a most humiliating fashion, has never seemed to bother the Americans.)

Anyway, all water under the bridge now, and if you guys want to say you won too, fine by me. =)

I will take exception though to the bit about our "pretend military" and being "insane" on bilingualism - just because our priorities don't mesh with yours doesn't justify the perjorative language. Like I said, we do our things our way, you do your things your way.

 

[moo]

Hey Qm6, nice posts.

I'm gonna make this quick cuz I gotta run to class.

We never learned any American history. In fourth grade we were learning about the Inuits and by eleventh grade we were learning about the history, government and geography of Canada. You could've taken a world history class your senior year of high school but that was not required.

I have to disagree with you on Canadian culture. The issue of diversity, while a rallying cry for many is also one reason that many have used as a reason for Canada not to be a country. Remember the 95 referendum in Quebec? Anyway, my point is not that diversity is not good, but that the way that Canada has approached it is short-sighted. New Canadians do not assimilate into the customs and ways of their new home. If you think that's fine, then I'm not going to argue with you, but the truth is, people only end up communicating within their own race and fail to embrace the "diversity" that the government so wants to create. And you know, I'll even admit that I was guilty of only associating with my own race. Not because I wanted to but because I think it was just so convenient. (You go with the crowd.) In high school and at UBC the Indians hung out with the Indians, Chinese with the Chinese, white people with the white people, etc. Whereas in med school in Chicago (and there is a large Asian population at our school, about 50% are Indian/Asian), all of a sudden my friends are not only Asian, but two of my closest friends are Indian and Jewish. The "cliques" I see are not separated by race but by personalities, who gets along with whom, etc. I don't know whether this is a product of Canadian society but I suspect that this has some bearing.

 

[flighterdoc]

Originally posted by QM6
Oh, one more thing, I just caught this post (insert joke about Canadians being slow on the take):



Just an aside (and not to start a war here!), the way we learn the War of 1812, it was an American attempt to finally, utterly conquer Canada. Seeing as how we're still here, we figure we won. And when you figure at the time, the US had about 7 and a half million people, Canada about 500 thousand - even more lopsided than it is today (300 v 30 million) - we won good. =)

The sticking point is this - over the course of the war, land went back and forth. We burned down Washington, then later you burned down York (Toronto). Quid pro quo, until 1814 with the Treaty of Ghent. By that point, we'd actually won a bunch of land, and British territory extended south of where it was before the war started. But under the Treaty, we agreed to return the borders back to the status quo of 1811, and the British gave up any further claims to American soil. So you could say that while the US lost the war, we lost the peace.

Obviously I don't have my high school history texts anymore (and if I did they'd be in French anyway), but there's this Canadian book "Bastards and Boneheads" by Will Ferguson that captures the difference in the way we both perceive North American history. Of course, being the busy med students you are, you're not actually going to go and find it, so why don't I just quote it here:



Anyway, all water under the bridge now, and if you guys want to say you won too, fine by me. =)

I will take exception though to the bit about our "pretend military" and being "insane" on bilingualism - just because our priorities don't mesh with yours doesn't justify the perjorative language. Like I said, we do our things our way, you do your things your way.

Wow, such different versions of history. First of all, the war of 1812 wasn't between Canada and the US, it wasn't even between the US and "British North America". It was between the US and Britain, the superpower of the day - and the battles on the great lakes were a minor part of it.

It was Oliver Hazard Perry who said "don't give up the ship" after the USS Lawrence was destroyed in battle (due primarily to the cowardace of the USS Niagra's captain), Perry rowed over to the Niagra, took command and carried the day against Barclay, the british commander. For more information, read http://www.smithsonianmag.si.edu/smithsonian/issues95/jan95/erie.html


BTW, when I make judgements about Canadas military capability, it's a professional judgement - not relative priorities. I am a retired military officer (USAF Lt Col), and have spent more time in formal schooling learning to be a military analyst than I will learning to be a doctor, plus 22 years of experience in the military. And, I made my analysis after discussing (during my trip to Kingston, etc) with serving Canadian military officers, who explained the policies that make them question why Canada has a military. The missions the Canadian defese forces are structured for have essentially no capability to defend Canada from any threat, perceived or otherwise).

They also (and the news reports on CBC while I was there) told while the Canadian forces don't have basic protective equipment (body armor, functioning vehicles in Afghanistan, etc) they spend a large percentage of the budget on everything bilingual - to satisfy a relative minority of the population. Thats what I call insane.

 

[QM6]

Hey moo,

First, thanks for the props. I'm glad to actually put this Canadian Studies stuff from undergrad to some use!

I guess we'll just have to disagree on how we see cultures play out in Canada, that's fine. Would it surprise you that I'm a first-generation Canadian of Asian extraction? Well, it shouldn't - but I guess my experience just played out differently from yours, for whatever reason. Who knows why. 30 million people, 30 million stories.

About the French fact, I think we're still kinda unsure if it should have special protections, powers and political considerations, or if it's now merely one of many cultures that make up Canada today. I lean towards the first view myself, and so do many Quebec nationalists. The difference is, I trust Canada as a federal whole to respect special provisions for French, whereas separatists hold that only a sovereign Quebec (which represents only a subset of French Canada) can really guarantee their cultural continuity.

Part of why I trust that federal Canada will protect the role of French even today leads me to...

Hey flighterdoc,

I'm glad to hear about your background in the military. I'm kind of approaching the subject from the other way you did - I got my background in Canadian Studies first, then joined the military as a lowly Acting Sub-Lieutenant in the Canadian Navy. (I'm sure you guys have a similiar programme in civilian schools, where you get into med school, and once you're in, the military offers tuition and instrument coverage, a salary and a signing bonus.)

What it means is, I appreciate the responsibility our government takes in leading and shaping Canada's national identity. Nation-building is the subtext to many federal programmes, like equalisation payments, health and social transfers, and yes, bilingualism in the military.

You can argue the military utility in spending our limited resources on translations and double-printing runs, and from that perspective, I totally agree with you. I've seen how our priorities play out, and what we could/should be paying more attention to. But, I also see the point in why our priorities are the way they are - and I don't feel too bad about it.

That is, I don't feel too bad about it right now. Perhaps once I'm out in the field, I'll feel differently. (But based on what I heard in yesterday's Throne Speech, I'm actually pretty optimistic about our military's future.)

As for the War of 1812 thing - I'm shocked that not only is our interpretation different, but we even differ on the facts of the battle! Wow. Anyway, your own US Navy biography on James Lawrence seems to agree with the story I quoted above at least:

Captain Lawrence, mortally wounded by small arms fire, ordered "Don't give up the ship" as he was carried below. However, his crew was overwhelmed by British boarders shortly afterwards. James Lawrence died of his wounds on 4 June, while Chesapeake was being taken to Halifax, Nova Scotia, by her captors.

According to the US Navy history site, I gather that Commodore Perry's phrase was actually "We have met the enemy and they are ours", also a War of 1812 quote:

In the War of 1812, Perry constructed and commanded a fleet of American warships on Lake Erie. When his flagship Lawrence was shattered and sinking in the Battle of Lake Erie, Perry fired her last effective gun, took his battle flag, and rowed across shot-splashed waters to Niagara where he fought on to victory, and reported, ?We have met the enemy and they are ours."

The Navy site goes on to say that Perry's win allowed the US to negotiate "favorable terms" at Ghent... by that it must mean not actual concessions to the US, but simply the return to the 1811 status quo like I mentioned in my last post. Like you said, the battles on the Great Lakes were a relatively minor part of the war - the real history (at least for the Canadian schoolbooks) happened on the Atlantic coast, like the Shannon and Chesapeake off Boston harbour.

Anyway, glad to hear you enjoyed your trip to Kingston and Canada flighterdoc, and thanks for all the great discussion everyone!

 

[driedcaribou]

Originally posted by QM6

That is, I don't feel too bad about it right now. Perhaps once I'm out in the field, I'll feel differently. (But based on what I heard in yesterday's Throne Speech, I'm actually pretty optimistic about our military's future.)

When most of the experienced military members have quit due to disgust and budget cuts throughout the years, there is a huge hole of military experience that is created.

No matter how much money we put back into our military, you will never ever buy that experience back.

I may only be a lowly Corporal in the Reserves for the Canadian military, but even I can see (and have heard from more experienced troops) how squalid we have become.

The average Canadian citizen has such a negative view of our military and militaries in general (especially on the West Coast), it's not surprising why there is such a lack of support for the military.

I have to agree with the points Lt Col flighterdoc made.

I hear Canadians blindly criticise negatively about Americans but after working with some of their troops, everyone is an individual. You meet good people and bad people.

When we first got to Afganistan, our military had to rely on a lot of equipment the US graciously lent us.

Our government just makes some really really bad decisions.

The most extreme example of horrible spending in the Canadian military is the sex-change they paid for some NCO awhile back.

Do you know that the Land Force basic training for Reservists are so tight on funding that physical training is no longer mandatory every morning?

That's just plain pathetic.

 

[CatsAreKillers]

Originally posted by flighterdoc
As far as prejudice, try going to Quebec (the hinterlands, say the south-east shore of the St Lawrence) and stopping in a store. Nobody speaks english, their french is awful (I can get by in Paris, but not Quebec?), and go out of their way to be a-holes to anglophones. And stupid? How many francophone homes have a book in them? Except for a bible, perhaps - very few. They're prejudiced against everyone, even their own countrymen.

And how many francophone homes have you actually been in? Talk about a bigotted over-generalization.

Perhaps they have reasons for not being over enthusiastic to see tourists from the U.S.

 

[flighterdoc]

Originally posted by CatsAreKillers
And how many francophone homes have you actually been in? Talk about a bigotted over-generalization.

Perhaps they have reasons for not being over enthusiastic to see tourists from the U.S.

On that trip, 8. On others, probably a cumulative 20 or so.

And, if it's an overgeneralization, it was pointed out to me by my Canadian friend. I would have never noticed, myself.

What data do you have to support a different conclusion?