End of Affirmative Action: Implications for Pain

[MitchLevi]

College and medical school admission’s tests can’t be racist anymore than (2+2 = ?) can

Yes...Haven't you heard standardized tests can be racist?

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[Chrish]

Bigger issue is class, rather than race. As I mentioned in other thread, people who get into Ivey league schools or medical schools in general have parents who are affluent and educated. These children are trained for success from day one. They have role-models to follow and $$ help from parents to pursue research/ impressive extracurriculars.

Compare that to students who grew up in low-income households, had no guidance from parents or other family members, and didn’t have financial resources to devote themselves to outside things that would make themselves competitive for the applications.

This is America. Anyone can be financially successful by working hard yada yada. But getting into competitive schools/ specialties is whole another ballgame. Your family’s financial status, connections and your parents’ education level will play a huge part in determining your success. Let’s not pretend for a second that these things don’t matter.

As things stand, competitive specialties (medicine/ dental) or highly ranked undergraduate schools will become even more exclusive to those who come from affluent/ educated background.

 

[bedrock]

Yes...Haven't you heard standardized tests can be racist?

Lol.

It’s funny that once affirmative action might go away, that elite liberal institutions starting deciding that standardized tests might be racist?

They are not perfect, but such tests are one of the few methods to objectively establish someone’s competence, without any personal bias?

And the liberal elites all have a stroke at such an anti American idea of
“the best person should win”…..

With affirmative action going away, hopefully that will happen much more often in this country.

 

[epidural man]

Bigger issue is class, rather than race. As I mentioned in other thread, people who get into Ivey league schools or medical schools in general have parents who are affluent and educated. These children are trained for success from day one. They have role-models to follow and $$ help from parents to pursue research/ impressive extracurriculars.

Compare that to students who grew up in low-income households, had no guidance from parents or other family members, and didn’t have financial resources to devote themselves to outside things that would make themselves competitive for the applications.

This is America. Anyone can be financially successful by working hard yada yada. But getting into competitive schools/ specialties is whole another ballgame. Your family’s financial status, connections and your parents’ education level will play a huge part in determining your success. Let’s not pretend for a second that these things don’t matter.

As things stand, competitive specialties (medicine/ dental) or highly ranked undergraduate schools will become even more exclusive for those who come from affluent/ educated background.

I’m not sure I agree.

I was looking at Gasworks at the job listing - and not one said “must have graduated from Harvard or Cornell.”

In fact, I suspect they don’t care if you did med school in Mexico - as long as you are US licensed.

I’ve always found it funny people want to get into or go to prestigious schools. I’ve never understood it. I’d put my Organic Chen teacher up against any of those ivy teachers.

 

[Chrish]

I’m not sure I agree.

I was looking at Gasworks at the job listing - and not one said “must have graduated from Harvard or Cornell.”

In fact, I suspect they don’t care if you did med school in Mexico - as long as you are US licensed.

I’ve always found it funny people want to get into or go to prestigious schools. I’ve never understood it. I’d put my Organic Chen teacher up against any of those ivy teachers.

I said any med school in general or highly ranked undergrad schools.

 

[Dr. Ice]

To feed off my last statement. Experience is paramount followed closely by personality. Like it or not until the bots actually do take over (prob way sooner than the nay sayers think) human connection does still matter. Empathy, social communication, not typing while you interview patients, even if it means you will have to do notes until your eyes bleed. This stuff matters. Someone can put in wires and metal all through patients, maybe I can’t do it, but many of them come to see me after all that crap fails. Humanity doesn’t come from Harvard. In fact, the gold label is only good for professions in which you can’t check your ego at the door…

 

[hyperalgesia]

To feed off my last statement. Experience is paramount followed closely by personality. Like it or not until the bots actually do take over (prob way sooner than the nay sayers think) human connection does still matter. Empathy, social communication, not typing while you interview patients, even if it means you will have to do notes until your eyes bleed. This stuff matters. Someone can put in wires and metal all through patients, maybe I can’t do it, but many of them come to see me after all that crap fails. Humanity doesn’t come from Harvard. In fact, the gold label is only good for professions in which you can’t check your ego at the door…

I'm tempted to add "culture" to experience and personality. Some of the cultures people come from pound the common sense out of people and replace it with rote memorization. It works great for test scores but is catastrophic in the real world.

 

[Agast]

I'm tempted to add "culture" to experience and personality. Some of the cultures people come from pound the common sense out of people and replace it with rote memorization. It works great for test scores but is catastrophic in the real world.

Oh boy, then you’re moving away from giving extra points for being from a certain ethnicity, to taking away extra points for being a member of a certain ethnicity

 

[anonperson]

Bigger issue is class, rather than race. As I mentioned in other thread, people who get into Ivey league schools or medical schools in general have parents who are affluent and educated. These children are trained for success from day one. They have role-models to follow and $$ help from parents to pursue research/ impressive extracurriculars.

Compare that to students who grew up in low-income households, had no guidance from parents or other family members, and didn’t have financial resources to devote themselves to outside things that would make themselves competitive for the applications.

This is America. Anyone can be financially successful by working hard yada yada. But getting into competitive schools/ specialties is whole another ballgame. Your family’s financial status, connections and your parents’ education level will play a huge part in determining your success. Let’s not pretend for a second that these things don’t matter.

As things stand, competitive specialties (medicine/ dental) or highly ranked undergraduate schools will become even more exclusive to those who come from affluent/ educated background.

Sure those things ( affluence/connections) can matter but this is one of the few countries where if you actually work hard and use some common sense, you can achieve a reasonable amount of wealth within a generation or two.

A decent number of people succeed without any family connections and attend ::gasp:: state schools and do fine in life. They may not become president of the United States but they will live very comfortable lifestyles.

If you want to know true corruption, go to any third world country. Spots to elite engineering and medical schools are outright paid for.

The bigger issue is not class or race.

It's culture.

It's something that liberals don't really want to address but certain cultures place high importance on the following:

Pursuing Education
Avoiding out of wed lock children
Avoiding drugs/excess alcohol use

Not surprisingly, when you follow those simple ideas, you actually do well for yourself.

Some people refuse to follow common sense and want to wallow in their misery and continue to complain.

 

[hyperalgesia]

Oh boy, then you’re moving away from giving extra points for being from a certain ethnicity, to taking away extra points for being a member of a certain ethnicity

It's just an observation about culture, not ethnicity. Anyway, no I don't think you should add/subtract points.

 

[Pain Applicant1]

Why not?

Data has shown - when trying to parse out race difference in performance - that the ONLY factor that separates IQ, performance, etc., is study time. Clearly Asians are studying more than everyone else.

If you watch PBS for any short perior of time, they will have some program that shows a patient say "I just want a doctor that looks like me." I don't understand this in the least. I have NEVER considered what my doctor looks like. What I want is a doctor that knows the most. A doctor that is correct in their decision making, and diagnostic abilities. A doctor that is as smart as a whip! (A doctor who is caring I guess helps to - but obviously race, gender, sex-preference never influence if a person is a good person and kind.)

How does one get a doctor like that? They take the cream of the crop with regards to ability to study, ability to learn, ability to assimilate complex knowledge. If we don't pick the best to attend the universities, we don't get the best product.

Am I wrong in that assumption?

It seems to me that to make sure we have a more representative base in the end product - is not to pad the numbers to make it look like that - but to increase studying at the beginning of the cycle. To do otherwise is hacking at the leaves.

"There are a thousand hacking at the branches of evil to one who is striking at the root."

Henry David Thoreau

No, people are different. IQ is mostly, but not completely, influenced by genetics and anything that measures the G factor will reflect this. Everyone has different capabilities. There's no shame in this and it doesn't mean anyone's life is more or less valuable than anyone else's but this is reality.

We're all different and we all evolved to whatever was admirable in our culture throughout time. Usually, what was admirable was what led to a better chance for survival, not much different than today.

There are numerous examples but just to give one you can check out the Bajau people. These people had to learn how to fish by diving to aid in their survival so they evolved to have bigger spleens which allows them to hold their breath for over 5 minutes. I'd be dead if I did that.

 

[Pain Applicant1]

It is true but I still feel very bad for that gazelle when the hyenas tear it apart.

NatureisMetal is a “must follow” on Instagram.

Believe you me, the gazelle has a much better life than factory-farmed cattle. I'd feel worse for them. Let's not even get into mass-produced chicken/turkey and cheese from dairy cows.

 

[Ducttape]

Sure those things ( affluence/connections) can matter but this is one of the few countries where if you actually work hard and use some common sense, you can achieve a reasonable amount of wealth within a generation or two.

A decent number of people succeed without any family connections and attend ::gasp:: state schools and do fine in life. They may not become president of the United States but they will live very comfortable lifestyles.

If you want to know true corruption, go to any third world country. Spots to elite engineering and medical schools are outright paid for.

The bigger issue is not class or race.

It's culture.

It's something that liberals don't really want to address but certain cultures place high importance on the following:

Pursuing Education
Avoiding out of wed lock children
Avoiding drugs/excess alcohol use

Not surprisingly, when you follow those simple ideas, you actually do well for yourself.

Some people refuse to follow common sense and want to wallow in their misery and continue to complain.

Unfortunately you have been sold this idea and you believe it. This was the case - in the past. Americans are now much less likely to be socially upwardly mobile than 20 years ago and lag other first world countries nowadays in this context.

 

[SSdoc33]

it is interesting now that affirmative action has been effectively erased, that there seems to be a push to eliminate legacy admissions to schools -- as this overwhelmingly favors white students.

id be ok with it, but that is a huge chunk of change that the elite colleges will not get if alumni know that their contributions will only be for the improvement of the school, and not so your kid has a better chance to get in.

 

[MitchLevi]

id be ok with it, but that is a huge chunk of change that the elite colleges will not get if alumni know that their contributions will only be for the improvement of the school, and not so your kid has a better chance to get inin.

Too bad...So sad.

 

[Fpg1245]

it is interesting now that affirmative action has been effectively erased, that there seems to be a push to eliminate legacy admissions to schools -- as this overwhelmingly favors white students.

id be ok with it, but that is a huge chunk of change that the elite colleges will not get if alumni know that their contributions will only be for the improvement of the school, and not so your kid has a better chance to get in.

Kind of figured they’d go after that. Gotta get soemthing out of this. NYT already published workarounds like using income as a surrogate for race.

Can’t expand the class sizes though can’t have that.

 

[hyperalgesia]

it is interesting now that affirmative action has been effectively erased, that there seems to be a push to eliminate legacy admissions to schools -- as this overwhelmingly favors white students.

id be ok with it, but that is a huge chunk of change that the elite colleges will not get if alumni know that their contributions will only be for the improvement of the school, and not so your kid has a better chance to get in.

It's just the typical politician/media game of calling attention to hypocrisy. But there's no legal framework for requiring private schools to change their legacy policies. Some schools might jump on the bandwagon to virtue signal and get publicity but they're not gonna change.

Remove their tax-exempt status. I don't like paying for their old-boys network.

 

[Pain Applicant1]

College and medical school admission’s tests can’t be racist anymore than (2+2 = ?) can

You're joking but some argue that math is racist. Google is math racist, etc and you'll see. A problem that comes up is when school funding is increased yet the math score needle barely budges. Many make the argument that test score discrepancies between different groups are mainly due to funding discrepancies but there's a lot of data that shows this isn't the case. Data can point both ways but when it points in this direction you have to come up with a reason and it's much easier to blame the test.

Seattle Schools Propose To Teach That Math Education Is Racist—Will California Be Far Behind?

California’s latest K–12 test scores were released earlier this month. Despite spending 26 percent more per pupil after inflation since 2011, test scores remain low, and improvement is proceeding at a glacial pace. Just 40 percent of California schoolchildren are proficient at math. What should...

www.hoover.org

https://www.washingtonpost.com/outlook/2021/12/08/racism-our-curriculums-isnt-limited-history-its-math-too/

 

[BobBarker]

Mother cows for beef cattle have great lives. They’re babies that go to the feed lot? Not as much.

 

[cowboydoc]

Mother cows for beef cattle have great lives. They’re babies that go to the feed lot? Not as much.

Trump advisory chairman buys bull named America for record $2.1m

I can guarantee this bull is living a great life!

 

[anonperson]

Unfortunately you have been sold this idea and you believe it. This was the case - in the past. Americans are now much less likely to be socially upwardly mobile than 20 years ago and lag other first world countries nowadays in this context.

I believe it because I live it along with numerous friends and family members.

People can attain a very nice standard of living in this country with some common sense and reasonable hard work in the United States.

That was true 20 years ago and it's true now.

Best country in the world. I was watching fireworks with my wife and kids last night just thinking of that as well.

The United States doesn't have the amount of handouts like some other first world countries but those are not sustainable. You think countries like Sweden or Norway could even function if they had the degree of immigration like the United States?

Those countries are flipping out because immigrants are there.

 

[Pain Applicant1]

Mother cows for beef cattle have great lives. They’re babies that go to the feed lot? Not as much.

I must respectfully disagree with you. Getting bred annually and then having your calf stolen/kidnapped/weaned from you is not a great life.

Also, if they get sold, it gets even worse.

 

[Ducttape]

um... immigrants actually increase GDP of a country.

taken from a republican president's website:

Benefits of Immigration Outweigh the Costs

As the debate surrounding immigration heats up, the contributions immigrants make remain an economic boost we cannot overlook.

www.bushcenter.org

When immigrants enter the labor force, they increase the productive capacity of the economy and raise GDP. Their incomes rise, but so do those of natives. It’s a phenomenon dubbed the “immigration surplus.”

How has social mobility in the U.S. changed in recent decades? | World Economic Forum

there is a graph in there, which appears confusing, but the gist of it is that each successive generation has become increasingly less likely to earn more than their parents.

The American Dream is less of a reality today in the United States, compared to other peer nations - Equitable Growth

The rate of upward absolute income mobility in the United States has declined substantially over the past 50 years.

equitablegrowth.org

Contrary to the self-conception that the United States is the “land of opportunity,” relative social mobility—the likelihood of a child born to low-income parents climbing to the top of the income distribution as an adult—is low in the United States, compared to many European countries. The United States also has a distinctive welfare state, with less social insurance and lower labor union penetration than most other high-income countries. Instead, the United States relies on consumer credit for many expenses that other countries cover through social insurance programs.

compared to EU countries, it seems the Danes do worse, but others - UK, Finland, Norway, Netherlands - do much better.

your example of you doing better may be the anomaly not the norm.

 

[cowboydoc]

um... immigrants actually increase GDP of a country.

taken from a republican president's website:

Benefits of Immigration Outweigh the Costs

As the debate surrounding immigration heats up, the contributions immigrants make remain an economic boost we cannot overlook.

www.bushcenter.org

How has social mobility in the U.S. changed in recent decades? | World Economic Forum

there is a graph in there, which appears confusing, but the gist of it is that each successive generation has become increasingly less likely to earn more than their parents.

The American Dream is less of a reality today in the United States, compared to other peer nations - Equitable Growth

The rate of upward absolute income mobility in the United States has declined substantially over the past 50 years.

equitablegrowth.org

compared to EU countries, it seems the Danes do worse, but others - UK, Finland, Norway, Netherlands - do much better.

your example of you doing better may be the anomaly not the norm.

These two points seem contradictory. Your previous posts suggest the "American Dream" was somehow dashed in the past 20 years. People no longer have opportunities and need the government to provide for all their needs, etc. Yet, immigration creates more income for all and there is more immigration to the US than any other country by far.

If the US is a vast food desert with no opportunity, then why is it clearly the most desired country for immigration on the planet?

 

[Ducttape]

these are 2 separate points.

one point is that the American dream of reaching a higher SES has become less of a reality and less likely to occur in the US than in other first world countries. the myth that one can pull oneself up by their bootstraps is a myth that has become harder to justify over the past 20 years.

oh yes, there are some examples of people who have been able to do so - but it is an exceedingly few people, leaving the vast majority of poor, regardless of how hard they work, of never improving their SES.

===

my other point is that immigration helps the country as a whole and raises GDP for the entire country.

===
in terms of your last comment - immigrants are in a different position than US citizens. someone living in a 3rd or 4th world country and escaping prosecution even death is in a much different situation and mindset than a lower SES individual who sees little opportunity to improve their lot in life, but is no fear for their actual existence...

 

[anonperson]

these are 2 separate points.

one point is that the American dream of reaching a higher SES has become less of a reality and less likely to occur in the US than in other first world countries. the myth that one can pull oneself up by their bootstraps is a myth that has become harder to justify over the past 20 years.

oh yes, there are some examples of people who have been able to do so - but it is an exceedingly few people, leaving the vast majority of poor, regardless of how hard they work, of never improving their SES.

===

my other point is that immigration helps the country as a whole and raises GDP for the entire country.

===
in terms of your last comment - immigrants are in a different position than US citizens. someone living in a 3rd or 4th world country and escaping prosecution even death is in a much different situation and mindset than a lower SES individual who sees little opportunity to improve their lot in life, but is no fear for their actual existence...

Immigrants from East Asia and South Asia are doing fine. They work hard, promote education, promote stable families and not surprisingly they do reasonably well.

Besides, the premise that kids need to out earn their parents to achieve success doesn't make sense.

I'm looking at quality of life. I see people with cars, flat screen TVs, smart phones, access to unlimited information at their fingertips that was unheard of 30 years ago

From your second link " Is the American Dream over", a graph midway down shows that since 1967, the upper middle class has increased while lower middle class has decreased. Low income has stayed consistent while middle class has decreased.

What's wrong with that? More upper middle class families. That's a win.

 

[cowboydoc]

these are 2 separate points.

one point is that the American dream of reaching a higher SES has become less of a reality and less likely to occur in the US than in other first world countries. the myth that one can pull oneself up by their bootstraps is a myth that has become harder to justify over the past 20 years.

oh yes, there are some examples of people who have been able to do so - but it is an exceedingly few people, leaving the vast majority of poor, regardless of how hard they work, of never improving their SES.

===

my other point is that immigration helps the country as a whole and raises GDP for the entire country.

===
in terms of your last comment - immigrants are in a different position than US citizens. someone living in a 3rd or 4th world country and escaping prosecution even death is in a much different situation and mindset than a lower SES individual who sees little opportunity to improve their lot in life, but is no fear for their actual existence...

So poor people by US standards can't work hard to improve their SES, but those who experience more substantial hardship in other parts of the world will gladly give up what little they have to come to the US to vastly improve their lot and raise the tide for all the surrounding ships?

I'll grant you there is vast room for improvement. We can, and should, knock down barriers that limit the opportunity for the growth of some people groups. Creating excuses and victims is not the answer IMO. Equal opportunity =/= equal outcomes. The data you present suggests the system allows opportunity for those who don't choose to be victims.

I'm biased, since "the system" allowed me to make an order of magnitude more than my family income growing up. Few of my peers went to college, but the ones who worked diligently are doing well as truckers, mechanics, farmers. Relative pay for all of us is less than it was a generation ago, but we all experience a very high standard of living, in terms of having "stuff." Since WW2, the standard of living has burgeoned in the US. I don't think maintaining that rate of growth is realistic, or necessary for a high standard of living.

 

[Dr. Ice]

Bros..Ducttape is wired by the patients he sees all day. Contrary to what he wants to believe is his own reality..that is what it is, and yet he will wait one full day to look up obscure articles and then methodically come up with reasons why his rationale is the most intellectual and empathic one. Humans are flawed by our experiences. That’s why we are unsustainable as a species

 

[Ducttape]

So poor people by US standards can't work hard to improve their SES, but those who experience more substantial hardship in other parts of the world will gladly give up what little they have to come to the US to vastly improve their lot and raise the tide for all the surrounding ships?

I'll grant you there is vast room for improvement. We can, and should, knock down barriers that limit the opportunity for the growth of some people groups. Creating excuses and victims is not the answer IMO. Equal opportunity =/= equal outcomes. The data you present suggests the system allows opportunity for those who don't choose to be victims.

I'm biased, since "the system" allowed me to make an order of magnitude more than my family income growing up. Few of my peers went to college, but the ones who worked diligently are doing well as truckers, mechanics, farmers. Relative pay for all of us is less than it was a generation ago, but we all experience a very high standard of living, in terms of having "stuff." Since WW2, the standard of living has burgeoned in the US. I don't think maintaining that rate of growth is realistic, or necessary for a high standard of living.

its not that they cant, but it is that the odds are stacked against them/us all.

the system allowed for your generation and mine to improve our SES. that is not the case now for not only lower SES as a whole but for millenials as a whole.

and why is relative pay less for us, but is much higher for the ultra rich? why is there such a burgeoning income gap between the lower and middle class with the highest brackets (not ours, but the 1%ers)


we tell those of lower SES status - of which blacks and hispanics make up a disproportionately high percentage - to pick them selves up, yet barriers are placed all throughout.

this is not about creating excuses. this is looking at the system critically and try to pinpoint the root causes for why certain groups of individuals do poorly and to try to remove those barriers.

Bros..Ducttape is wired by the patients he sees all day. Contrary to what he wants to believe is his own reality..that is what it is, and yet he will wait one full day to look up obscure articles and then methodically come up with reasons why his rationale is the most intellectual and empathic one. Humans are flawed by our experiences. That’s why we are unsustainable as a species

when i leave work, im done with these forums. in some ways, posting information here is akin to work. so thats why a lot of posts are delayed until the next day. the articles are easy to find and they rarely take any time to find. partly because i had already seen them.

i admittedly do see a different side of America that the rest of you will never see.

 

[Chrish]

I see immigrant families coming here with nothing and becoming millionaires in two decades. US provides probably the easiest road to wealth accumulation due to abundant opportunities anywhere in the world.

But my original point still stands; if your goal is to get into med school or investment banking, people who come from upper socioeconomic class will have a significant advantage over those who had a modest upbringing. Denying it would be disingenuous.

Becoming wealthy person via hard work vs going into competitive white-collar field are two separate issues.

 

[hyperalgesia]

Good points...

 

[BobBarker]

Geezus. If all of your posts are done at work then you must be seeing like 8 patients a day.

 

[bedrock]

Geezus. If all of your posts are done at work then you must be seeing like 8 patients a day.

sounds like 1/3 medicaid patients are showing for their appointments. About average...

 

[hyperalgesia]

Geezus. If all of your posts are done at work then you must be seeing like 8 patients a day.

I never post at work. While you are alternating between doing the choo choo to feed the future of humanity and apologizing to your wife for past mistakes, I shift between posting useless garbage on sdn and deciding on my next vacation. Get it straight man!