Employment Questions

[Firik]

I want to learn a little more about things I should do before signing a job offer. Ideally, I would go over the contract with a lawyer and try to negotiate the contract. Realistically, I do not want to spend >$1,000 (guess) for attorney fees.
Also, I want to know a little bit about how did you decide to choose one practice over the other.
What about some suspicious signs you had? For example, having a zoom interview and then getting an offer doesn't raise a red flag? I was the one suggesting to tour their clinic and get to know their docs. Another one, committing for three years, really?
It is a corporate job.
I am a bit puzzled, since I like a lot of things about the offer, but I do feel a bit suspicious and don't want to rush into things and then regret them.
I would appreciate advice on helping make the process clear.

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[Faefly]

some dentists I talked to were saying "a contract only protects the people who hire you" and we are better off without a contract for the first few months.. Then we can sign one if we like the place we are at. If not we can easily leave, while in case of contracts we have to give a notice well in advance and other conditions. So for new grads, no contracts might be better for a short term.

 

[allDAT]

Don't sign a contract without getting the help you need from an attorney. It should be lest than 2 days of your pay as a dentist....

You need to get used to the idea of spending a few grand without much grief. You'll soon see that every time you turn around, it's a few thousand for this, a few thousand for that. Just part of the deal for dentists.

The problem new grads often get into:

large non competes
long periods of notice
agreeing to a draw against future earnings
lots of other weird stuff

basically - the deck is stacked against you in favor of the employer and mosts dentists that will employ new grads are nut cases anyways.

 

[allDAT]

If you can't get an attorney's help, try and find a place that will let you work without a contract.

 

[Docortho1212]

You’re not signing your life away on these contracts. Make sure you have guaranteed minimum that you agree with and a percentage of monthly production. (Corporate and DSO def make you sign a contract)

Usually these contracts can be terminated at Will by either party. So I don’t think you need a lawyer. Just negotiate what you want/need or find a office that will.

 

[Docortho1212]

Don't sign a contract without getting the help you need from an attorney. It should be lest than 2 days of your pay as a dentist....

You need to get used to the idea of spending a few grand without much grief. You'll soon see that every time you turn around, it's a few thousand for this, a few thousand for that. Just part of the deal for dentists.

The problem new grads often get into:

large non competes
long periods of notice
agreeing to a draw against future earnings
lots of other weird stuff

basically - the deck is stacked against you in favor of the employer and mosts dentists that will employ new grads are nut cases anyways.

Are you referring to independent contractor work?

 

[charlestweed]

IMO, hiring a lawyer is a waste of money. Ever since I came to the US in 1986, I only asked a lawyer for help once….and that was to help me write a will for my young family. I didn’t hire anybody to look at the contracts when I got new jobs, when I opened an office from scratch, when I purchased an existing office, when I negotiated the lease with the landlords, when I negotiated with a GP to let me share his office space etc.

The corp recently approved my request for a salary increase but they also asked me to sign a new contract extension. The contract is only 1/2 a page long it says that I have to give them a 90-day written notice when I quit. And if I don’t, I will have to pay $500/day in fine…..but not exceeding $10,000. I signed it without any hesitation. To many of my colleagues, a 90-day notice is a big deal but to me, it’s not. When the corp manager knows that you want to leave, they usually don’t want to keep you for 90 days….they usually find someone to replace you right away. There’s no reason for any employer to keep an un-motivated associate dentist who plans to leave and is not willing to produce for a long time. That’s what happened to my friend. He gave the corp a 90 day notice and the corp found another orthodontist to replace him within a week.

I prefer to work at a place that has no written contract. I like to work for the corps because their contracts are very simple….and reasonable.

Just keep in mind it’s harder to negotiate with an employer when you are a new grad and have zero experience….when you have nothing to show him/her. I remember when I applied for my first job (I wanted to moonlight during my GPR training), most places asked me how many years of experience I had. I told them I was a new grad. And they told me straight that they only hired someone who has 1-2 years of experience. The same thing happened to my sister after she graduated.....it took her about a month to get a job.

 

[allDAT]

Are you referring to independent contractor work?

Not really. Kinda a gray area though because a lot of dentists are mistakenly forced to be a 1099 instead of a W2 so it applies to both in a sense that my advice would be that we if you’re presented with a contract, just get a lawyer to help you review it. Don’t pay them to negotiate for you though.

 

[charlestweed]

W2 employees are more expensive (and more headaches) for the owner dentists because they have to provide benefits like health insurance, 401k, holiday pays, sick pays, over time hours (if work over 8 hours) etc. They have to follow the labor laws. They can’t just fire an associate dentist any time if he/she is slow and incompetent. To fire an employee here in CA, you have to have 3 write ups to demonstrate that a person is an unfit employee. Most owner dentists are small business owners. They can’t afford to hire W2 associate dentists like the large Corps.

Getting paid W2 is, of course, more preferable but there are not very many places that offer you this, especially if you are a new grad who has zero experience.

 

[Firik]

The contract is 13 pages long, nowadays that's typical I've heard, with a 2-year commitment otherwise you payback a sign-on bonus; however, I am not sure of other repercussions if you quit earlier than 2 years. This is why I thought of a lawyer to know what I'm getting into. Actually, I was able to negotiate from three years into two years. There is also a 90 notice clause and guaranteed base pay.
What are some repercussions you know of if you quit before your contract? Pay a fine or be sued?
I feel like without a contract you can be fired and you can't get compensation.

 

[allDAT]

The contract is 13 pages long, nowadays that's typical I've heard, with a 2-year commitment otherwise you payback a sign-on bonus; however, I am not sure of other repercussions if you quit earlier than 2 years. This is why I thought of a lawyer to know what I'm getting into. Actually, I was able to negotiate from three years into two years. There is also a 90 notice clause and guaranteed base pay.
What are some repercussions you know of if you quit before your contract? Pay a fine or be sued?
I feel like without a contract you can be fired and you can't get compensation.

Probably not going to be a job you want. I’d never agree to a 2 year commitment without working there first. Then decide if it’s a good spot or not.

90 days is too long. Agree to no more than 60 but 30 for you and 14 for the employer is fair.

Sign on bonuses…not a fan. I’d prefer a higher daily guarantee. The bonus locks you in and you’ll be returning it with after tax dollars if things go south. I like sign on bonuses from the government, not private practices or corporate ones.

what happens is you violate your contract? It’s variable - depends how upset everyone is, what state laws are in play, etc.

 

[Orth0]

W2 employees are more expensive (and more headaches) for the owner dentists because they have to provide benefits like health insurance, 401k, holiday pays, sick pays, over time hours (if work over 8 hours) etc. They have to follow the labor laws. They can’t just fire an associate dentist any time if he/she is slow and incompetent. To fire an employee here in CA, you have to have 3 write ups to demonstrate that a person is an unfit employee. Most owner dentists are small business owners. They can’t afford to hire W2 associate dentists like the large Corps.

Getting paid W2 is, of course, more preferable but there are not very many places that offer you this, especially if you are a new grad who has zero experience.

But aren't there more tax advantages to getting hired as an independent contractor?

 

[Blueshirts]

But aren't there more tax advantages to getting hired as an independent contractor?

Ya, for the employer.

 

[charlestweed]

But aren't there more tax advantages to getting hired as an independent contractor?

I think it’s more beneficial for someone (like me) who has his own office and works P/T for corp as an independent contractor to supplement his income. With my own office, there are a lot of nice deductions that I can make on a Schedule C that I might not be able to if I were a W2 employee at the corp . There’s not much you can write off if you are a 1099 worker and don’t have an office.

Look. The reason the employers hire you as an independent contractor is they want to save money on things like social security, worker comp insurance, unemployment insurance, PTO, health insurance etc. As an independent, you have to pay your own taxes…. all the social security and medicare taxes. If you are an employee, your employer pays part of the social security medicare taxes.