EM---> STICU fellowship

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IdontTakeCall

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Posted this in anesthesia but got no responses, I was looking through the websites for the anesthesia/surgery shock trauma fellowships, specifically in the southwest, and wondering, is it possible to get a spot at one of these 1 or 2 year fellowships as a boarded EM doc? I know of attendings who have done anesthesia CC fellowships and are now SICU attendings out here on the east coast, but I'm looking to move towards texas after residency. anyone have any input on those chances? And i know you can currently only sit for the boards as EM--> IM based CC but board cert is less important to me as being able to get a fellowship spot/job as an a STICU attending.

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We have two EM trained physicians here at VCU who did critical care fellowships at Shock Trauma. Both work here in the ED and as ICU attendings. It's definitely possible, due to the low fill rate of the surgical CC fellowships.

EDIT: sorry, I looked at your post again and it's now unclear whether you're asking if EPs can do surgical CC fellowships, or if they can do them in the west. If my response was off topic I apologize.
 
There are a couple EM grads at Wash U doing CCM fellowships through surgery/anesthesia, but they've told me that supposedly they'll do enough MICU rotation that the IM department will sign off and say they're eligible to take the IM CCM boards. Also, if you can find a fellowship with a bunch of neuro ICU time, you can take the neuro critical care boards.
 
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That somewhat answers my question. I was looking to do a one year shock trauma CC fellowship but whether im SICU or AnesthICU or MICU boarded is irrelevant as long as its a form of critical care. There are just far more surgical/anesthesia one year spots than 2 year MICU spots around the country. I would prefer to only do the one year in either Texas or Florida but if i HAD to do 2 year MICU that would probably be ok. Was just curious if the anesthesia and surgical CC one year fellowships take EM boarded fellows, particularly in texas and florida. Thanks for the input.
 
The issue is that you can't take the surgery or anesthesia CCM boards if you did an EM residency. On the other hand, the surgery and anesthesia programs historically are more receptive to EM trained physicians. I think there's a program in Florida that specifically recruits EPs.
 
Yeah the board certification isn't a major problem to me. If for instance, UTexas medical center @ houston were to give me a CC spot post EM, and I was then able to get a job as an attending intensivitst at a hospital in Texas while doing part time EM attending shifts, then I would be a happy man.
 
Yeah the board certification isn't a major problem to me. If for instance, UTexas medical center @ houston were to give me a CC spot post EM, and I was then able to get a job as an attending intensivitst at a hospital in Texas while doing part time EM attending shifts, then I would be a happy man.

check into university of florida, gainesville. just type into google and you will see the whole web page dedicated to fellowship for ED folks. That is where I am now, and am enjoying it a good bit. It is anesthesia/EM fellowship. You can get boarded through European critical care boards (takes 2 year fellowship to do written and oral).

Throughout my fellowship I do some time down in the ED also (4 blocks ED, 9 blocks ICu). You rotate through Trauma ICU (20 beds), Gen Surg ICU (20 beds, includes transplant, panc/bili service, ent, and a few other hodgepodge services), BURN icu (8 beds), and Neuro ICU (30 beds). You also have elective time you can do MICU.

so its a bit complicated at this time, there is actually no ABIM/ABEM agreement right now, but the thought is that it is being worked on and you can get board certification through medicine once that comes out. The program is currently waiting for this to pan out to see if we can work something up with the medicine folks to board through them, but I'm not counting on anything really at this time.

So to your question about working, that obviously depends on how the staff feels you perform, but it seems a good chance that if the program trains you, you will be able to work at the same hospital.

I'm not sure what I'll do when I finish, but I think it will be possible to work half in the ED and half in all the ICU's I mentioned above +/- MICU.
 
so its a bit complicated at this time, there is actually no ABIM/ABEM agreement right now, but the thought is that it is being worked on and you can get board certification through medicine once that comes out. The program is currently waiting for this to pan out to see if we can work something up with the medicine folks to board through them, but I'm not counting on anything really at this time

This is actually incorrect. The ABIM ABEM agreement exists and there is abundant public confirmation of this from both ABIM and ABEM. ABIM and ABEM recently even released a brief historical timeline of the various stages the agreement went through, culminating in approval by BOTH the boards of directors of ABIM and ABEM (http://www.abim.org/news/critical-care-medicine.aspx).

What is actually being worked on right now is a formal ABMS proposal, which will be reviewed by both the boards of directors of ABIM and ABEM prior to submission to ABMS. After submission to ABMS, this proposal will need to make its way through committee prior to final approval. Once ABMS approves, this will be a done deal. If you speak to members of the ABEM board of directors, they seem quite confident that this will get through ABMS.

I am hoping that there is no blocking by the ABA or ABS at the ABMS level, since neither seems likely to grant EM trained fellows access to their CC exams anytime soon.

In the hoped for event of ABMS approval of ABEM as a co-sponsor of IM CCM, it is unclear what will constitute acceptable crendentials for grandfathering. There is extremely little public information on this issue. Some have reported that both the ABA and ABS have requested there be no grandfathering availability to EM graduates who have completed surgical or anesthesia critical care programs (http://www.medscape.com/viewarticle/725660).
 
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Posted this in anesthesia but got no responses, I was looking through the websites for the anesthesia/surgery shock trauma fellowships, specifically in the southwest, and wondering, is it possible to get a spot at one of these 1 or 2 year fellowships as a boarded EM doc? I know of attendings who have done anesthesia CC fellowships and are now SICU attendings out here on the east coast, but I'm looking to move towards texas after residency. anyone have any input on those chances? And i know you can currently only sit for the boards as EM--> IM based CC but board cert is less important to me as being able to get a fellowship spot/job as an a STICU attending.

It is likely that as long as fill rates remain relatively low in surgical CC and anesthesia CCM programs, there will be opportunities for EM trained candidates to find their way in as fellows in a variety of geographic locations based on individual candidate merits (person known to program, etc.) and the relative undesireability of the position to sugery/anesthesiology candidates.

However, the issue of getting hospital credentialing to practice as an ICU attending remains a thorny one. I am not sure why you would want to forego potential ABMS certification by planning on doing a surgical/trauma CC fellowship in a future where ABMS certification will likely be available by the IM CCM route. In large cities and desireable practice locations, hospitals generally want board certification or eligibility in order to grant privileges. In the past, many EM CCM people used the European "boards" (EDIC) to satisfy this requirement. However, acceptance of EDIC is totally at the discretion of the hospital credentialing committe. David Farcy (a Univ. of Maryland Shock Trauma grad) has discussed his own problems with maintaining ICU credentials at his hospital despite having the EDIC. From what I recall now, the credentials committee basically indicated that only US certification would be counted. On the other hand, if you are willing to practice in a smaller hospital/less desireable location, they may grant you privileges anyway given that much of the ICU care in these settings is delivered by non-CCM trained physicians. Of course, you do realize that the clear majority of ICUs in the USA are mixed medical/surgical/neuro ICU out in the community setting?

Which brings me to my final point. Most medical students and many EM residents falsely assume that ONLY surgical CC/anesthesia CCM trained people work in SICUs. Leaving aside the fact that most community mixed ICUs are covered by pulm/CCM or IM CCM trained intensivists, if intensivists are even available, plenty of IM CCM people work in dedicated SICUs. It's a numbers game (the clear majority of intensivists in the US are IM trained, surgical CC and anesthesia CCM folks are comparatively much fewer) and a dollars game (why put surgeons and anesthesiologists to work in the ICU when the OR is more lucrative). I know several IM CCM trained attendings who work in SICUs, CTICUs, neuroICUs and transplant ICUs. I will say that dedicated trauma ICUs almost always have non-IM CCM primary attendings.

So, how do you comfortably work in a surgical type ICU as an IM CCM person? You train in a CCM fellowship with a multidisciplinary focus. Many IM CCM fellowships are multidisciplinary in nature (Univ. of Pittsburgh, Stanford, Montefiore Medical Center, Mayo, Cleveland Clinic, SLU/St. John's Mercy, etc.). Some are even heavily SICU based (Mt. Sinai in NY).

As long as EM residents continue to take surgical CC or anesthesia CCM spots even without any hope of access to their certification exams, there is little impetus for the ABS or ABA to change anything.
 
Critical Care Subspecialization in Emergency Medicine

Evie Marcolini, MD FAAEM; Michael Winters, MD FAAEM
Posted: 09/14/2010

Abstract and Introduction

Introduction

The American Board of Emergency Medicine (ABEM) recently announced an agreement with the American Board of Internal Medicine (ABIM) to co-sponsor internal medicine (IM)/critical care medicine (CCM) certification (www.abem.org/public). This agreement provides emergency medicine (EM) residency graduates access to training in two year critical care fellowships sponsored by internal medicine (IM) programs. As a result, EM graduates will be eligible for certification in IM/CCM. The American Boards of Surgery and Anesthesiology have declined pursuit of a similar agreement and requested there be no grandfathering availability to EM graduates who have completed surgical or anesthesia critical care programs.

This agreement is a landmark step in ABEM's pursuit of critical care board certification. Some in the EM community do not favor the agreement that ABEM has brokered with ABIM, inasmuch as it does not benefit those who have trained in surgical/anesthesia-sponsored fellowships and it makes the surgical/anesthesia critical care fellowships less competitive for future emergency medicine graduates. To understand and fully appreciate the agreement that has been made, it is important to review the parallel development of EM and critical care as board certified specialties. This summary is based on an article by Somand and Zink, published in Academic Emergency Medicine in 2005.[1]

In 1961, Dr. James Mills, a general practitioner in Arlington, Virginia, opened the first full-time EM practice. By 1968, the American College of Emergency Physicians (ACEP) was formed. At the same time, the concept of a critical care unit (CCU) was coalescing as an evolution from the post-anesthesia care unit. In 1970, the Society for Critical Care Medicine (SCCM) was founded. One of the 29 physicians who founded SCCM was Dr. Peter Safar, an anesthesiologist and leader of the critical care movement, whose definition of critical care was a triad of 1) resuscitation, 2) emergency medical care for critical illness or injury and 3) intensive care. Today the clinical distinctions of care are blurred, because the general lack of ICU beds requires longer stays in the ED for many critically ill patients, requiring emergency physicians to call on their critical care knowledge base and skills frequently.

In 1972, ACEP, SCCM and the University Association for Emergency Medical Services formed the Federation for Emergency and Critical Care Medicine, the purpose of which was to promote EM and CCM within the American Medical Association (AMA). This union helped ACEP win the designation of a provisional section on emergency medicine by the AMA in 1973, but the collaboration prematurely dissolved as EM and CCM each continued to seek primary board recognition. The hosts of the AMA-sponsored Workshop Conference on Education of the Physician in Emergency Medical Care, held in Chicago in 1973, agreed that EM training followed by a critical care fellowship was highly desirable. As a result of discussions at this conference, SCCM accepted two years of EM residency as a prerequisite for admission to a critical care fellowship.

ABEM was formed in 1976. Three years later, it was approved as a conjoint (modified) board of ABMS, making EM the 23rd medical specialty in the United States. This was indeed an accomplishment, but its stature as a conjoint board precluded the board from issuing certificates of special qualifications. At the same time, CCM was also pursuing primary board status. Its first attempt failed, so critical care was designated as a multidisciplinary subspecialty of the existing primary boards: anesthesia, internal medicine, pediatrics and surgery. The task of reaching consensus among the four primary specialties on training and testing criteria for primary board status proved to be too much. In 1983, ABIM withdrew from the Joint Committee on Critical Care Medicine and submitted a separate application to certify its own subspecialists. The other specialties followed suit, leading to the creation of four subspecialties having certification processes for critical care subspecialty board certification, with no accommodation for ABEM diplomates to sit for critical care board certification.

In 1986, in keeping with the goal of pursuing CCM as a subspecialty of EM and considering the breakup of critical care subspecialty into four different boards, ABEM modified its pursuit and applied for a certificate of added qualification to ABMS. IM and pediatric leaders opposed the certification because they "viewed the critical care issue as a way for EM to get 'the camel's nose under the tent' of inpatient medicine and worried that if EM were granted the ability to train in CCM, inpatient care by emergency physicians could someday follow.[1] ABIM proposed a combined EM/IM training program to provide an avenue for EM physicians to pursue critical care board certification and announced plans to apply for an added certification in "emergency internal medicine." ABEM decided to put the critical care issue on the back burner and pursue primary board certification through ABMS. ABMS had clarified that a conjoint board was allowed to issue certificates of added qualification but not special qualification. In 1987, ABEM gained unanimous approval of its application for primary board status from the ABMS executive committee, but a small majority of the full delegation rejected the application. Not only did ABEM miss its goal of primary board status, but critical care certification remained on hold, and ABEM watched the boards of internal medicine and pediatrics continue to pursue subspecialization in emergency internal medicine and emergency pediatrics.

Realizing a pivotal point for EM, the president of ABEM, Dr. Judith Tintinalli, and its executive director, Dr. Benson Munger, went to the ABIM summer conference. They realized that concessions needed to be made to preserve the ability of ABEM to become a primary specialty, so they assured ABIM that ABEM had no interest in inpatient care, agreed to the principle of combined EM/IM and EM/Pediatrics programs, and withdrew the application for certificates of added qualification in critical care. As a result, ABIM reversed its opposition to primary board status for ABEM, and in 1989 ABEM was approved by ABMS as a primary board, bringing to fruition two decades of effort.

Critical care has been defined as the delivery of medical care to "any patient who is physiologically unstable, requiring constant and minute-to-minute titration of therapy according to the evolution of the disease process."[2] It has been shown that staffing ICUs with dedicated intensivists saves money, reduces mortality and shortens length of stay. The Leapfrog Group, a voluntary organization that leverages health care purchasing power to influence quality and affordability, has as one of its quality and safety practices staffing of ICUs by intensivists. This group acknowledges that EM physicians who have completed a critical care fellowship meet the definition of intensivist.

Currently, there are 155 EM residencies with 4,981 filled positions. These graduates will compete with 22,829 graduates of 381 IM residencies for 33 IM-sponsored CCM fellowships. Programs that train EM graduates in critical care have 20 to 24 slots specifically intended for emergency physicians. In addition, there are six more slots in programs that do not specifically intend emergency physician enrollment. These slots are not all in IM-sponsored critical care programs, so many graduates understand they will not be eligible for board certification. Of the CCM fellowship programs open to emergency physicians in 2008–2009, affiliations were as follows: 8 EM, 23 surgery, 14 medicine and 20 anesthesia.

Two other options are open to emergency physicians who have completed a critical care fellowship. The European Society of Intensive Care Medicine (www.esicm.org) allows American emergency physicians to sit for the European Diploma in Intensive Care Medicine in Europe, and the United Council of Neurologic Subspecialties (www.neurocriticalcare.org) allows fellowship-trained emergency physicians to sit for subspecialty certification in neurocritical care through either a fellowship or practice track. This practice track availability will be offered only through 2012.

Emergency medicine and critical care share a long and dynamic history in patient care as well as the pursuit of ABMS recognition. Physicians interested in combining a career in emergency medicine and critical care medicine sit on the cusp of a monumental movement that is gaining interest as well as importance; as the population ages, U.S. legislators struggle to reform health care, and critically ill patients spend longer times in EDs. Emergency physicians interested in critical care medicine now have the opportunity to continue toward a goal that was set when the specialty of EM was founded.

  1. Somand D, Zink B. The influence of critical care medicine on the development of the specialty of emergency medicine: a historical perspective. Acad Emerg Med 2005; 12:879–883.
  2. Brilli RJS. Critical care delivery in the intensive care unit: defining clinical roles and the best practice model. Crit Care Med 2001; 29:2007–2019.
 
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It is likely that as long as fill rates remain relatively low in surgical CC and anesthesia CCM programs, there will be opportunities for EM trained candidates to find their way in as fellows in a variety of geographic locations based on individual candidate merits (person known to program, etc.) and the relative undesireability of the position to sugery/anesthesiology candidates.

However, the issue of getting hospital credentialing to practice as an ICU attending remains a thorny one. I am not sure why you would want to forego potential ABMS certification by planning on doing a surgical/trauma CC fellowship in a future where ABMS certification will likely be available by the IM CCM route. In large cities and desireable practice locations, hospitals generally want board certification or eligibility in order to grant privileges. In the past, many EM CCM people used the European "boards" (EDIC) to satisfy this requirement. However, acceptance of EDIC is totally at the discretion of the hospital credentialing committe. David Farcy (a Univ. of Maryland Shock Trauma grad) has discussed his own problems with maintaining ICU credentials at his hospital despite having the EDIC. From what I recall now, the credentials committee basically indicated that only US certification would be counted. On the other hand, if you are willing to practice in a smaller hospital/less desireable location, they may grant you privileges anyway given that much of the ICU care in these settings is delivered by non-CCM trained physicians. Of course, you do realize that the clear majority of ICUs in the USA are mixed medical/surgical/neuro ICU out in the community setting?

Which brings me to my final point. Most medical students and many EM residents falsely assume that ONLY surgical CC/anesthesia CCM trained people work in SICUs. Leaving aside the fact that most community mixed ICUs are covered by pulm/CCM or IM CCM trained intensivists, if intensivists are even available, plenty of IM CCM people work in dedicated SICUs. It's a numbers game (the clear majority of intensivists in the US are IM trained, surgical CC and anesthesia CCM folks are comparatively much fewer) and a dollars game (why put surgeons and anesthesiologists to work in the ICU when the OR is more lucrative). I know several IM CCM trained attendings who work in SICUs, CTICUs, neuroICUs and transplant ICUs. I will say that dedicated trauma ICUs almost always have non-IM CCM primary attendings.

So, how do you comfortably work in a surgical type ICU as an IM CCM person? You train in a CCM fellowship with a multidisciplinary focus. Many IM CCM fellowships are multidisciplinary in nature (Univ. of Pittsburgh, Stanford, Montefiore Medical Center, Mayo, Cleveland Clinic, SLU/St. John's Mercy, etc.). Some are even heavily SICU based (Mt. Sinai in NY).

As long as EM residents continue to take surgical CC or anesthesia CCM spots even without any hope of access to their certification exams, there is little impetus for the ABS or ABA to change anything.

My main reason for Surgical/anesthesia CC fellowship over an IM based CC was that the former are one year fellowships and the latter are 2 year. With little kids and 350k in student loan debt I want as few extra years at resideny/fellow salary as possible, given the fact that even though I will be a fully licensed EM attending once I start the fellowship, I will probably not have much time to moonlight for cash given the # of hours/week in a CC fellowship. Also, the # of programs across the country for anesthesia plus surgery is significantly higher than IM CC unless you add in the pulmonary/cc 3 year fellowship which I am neither interested in nor eligible for. Bottom line is I want training in multidisciplinary ICU medicine post EM with an emphasis on shock trauma patients with as few years of post residency training as possible. I am not as worried about the hand on nature of the fellowship per say as being an EM attending I will have done a million intubations and CVCs and whatnot. I just want good training to run an ICU and be eligible to run the ICU given my past EM pathway.
 
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