EM salary and Obama's plan

[pseudoknot]

Having been there to take kids away from parents, I will tell you that no kid likes to be removed. Even the ones with bruises and broken bones from the beatings will cry when taken away. But it is better for them.

How do you know that it's always better for children to be separated from their parents, even if the parents' only crime is occasional drug use? I doubt there is data available on that. I do know that social workers do removals only as a last resort because of how terrible the foster care system is.

I'm not sure what in the hell point you were trying to make about letting them starve on the street, but congratulations, you've identified your lack of rationality on this topic and merely emote about things.

I don't claim to be perfectly rational. I'm a human being. The Republican war on the poor offends me for a variety of reasons, not least the fact that I was raised by a single mother who was supported by welfare and food stamps, and without those programs I doubt I would have survived, let alone made it to med school. (Not to mention my undergrad scholarship, NIH training grant, and federally supported med school loans. My residency spot will be funded by medicare, as yours likely is.)

---

Members don't see this ad.

 

[Dwindlin]

I don't claim to be perfectly rational. I'm a human being. The Republican war on the poor offends me for a variety of reasons, not least the fact that I was raised by a single mother who was supported by welfare and food stamps, and without those programs I doubt I would have survived, let alone made it to med school. (Not to mention my undergrad scholarship, NIH training grant, and federally supported med school loans. My residency spot will be funded by medicare, as yours likely is.)

Did your mother take her assistance money and buy drugs? I have no problem with my tax money (yes I still work as a student) being used to help people out. I don't enjoy knowing that many of those people are using it for frivolities and illegal substances rather than to get by while trying to get a job (which is really the point of welfare).

 

[Apollyon]

I don't know how many med students I've come across that appear to be communists. Hey, at least it's an ethos, but, once those selfsame med students become paid employees, for the most part, the worm turns pretty quickly.

 

[GeneralVeers]

Did your mother take her assistance money and buy drugs? I have no problem with my tax money (yes I still work as a student) being used to help people out. I don't enjoy knowing that many of those people are using it for frivolities and illegal substances rather than to get by while trying to get a job (which is really the point of welfare).

You have no problem with your taxes, yet you don't like people abusing your tax dollars? Those statements are in contradiction with each other.

Ayn Rand divided the enemy into two classes:

Moochers: Those who propose to represent the "common good" and take money from the productive for their own self-serving interests.

Leeches: Those who go begging for hand-outs to themselves claiming they can't take care of themselves.

Of the two the leeches are more contemptible, but the moochers are far more dangerous.

 

[Birdstrike]

I have no problem with my tax money (yes I still work as a student) being used to help people out..

Let's see how you feel when after years, and years, and years of working for free as a student and resident, when you finally become "rich" and realize you're never going to be "rich" because 50-70% or more of your pay (depending on federal, state, city, local, gas, property taxes, sales taxes, student loans) go to the common good, and you get very little in return from the government (because you're responsible) not to mention the fact that you never get 2/3 of your pay to begin with because your ER patients (who you're treating because you do want to help people) don't pay you (but they still sue you). At this point, maybe, just maybe, you'll see why so many of us are disgruntled and quote Atlas Shrugged. The longer you pull the cart, the less it feels good to be a liberal. I'm just sayin'...

If you can maintain a positive do-gooder attitude after that, my hat's off to you.

 

[GeneralVeers]

The thing that frustrates me most is that the people who espouse the "greater good" concept and want to help everyone aren't satisfied just giving away their own money. They have to TAKE my money and the money of others who disagree with them as well.

If you want to help the poor, then by all means donate, volunteer, and help in any way you feel is appropriate. Stealing from others to make you feel good about yourself is still theft.

 

[Dwindlin]

You have no problem with your taxes, yet you don't like people abusing your tax dollars? Those statements are in contradiction with each other.

I don't see how those are contradicting statements. Just because the system is broke doesn't mean it has to be. So I guess a better way to state it would be I wouldn't have a problem paying taxes assuming they were actually doing some good.

Let's see how you feel when after years, and years, and years of working for free as a student and resident, when you finally become "rich" and realize you're never going to be "rich" because 50-70% or more of your pay (depending on federal, state, city, local, gas, property taxes, sales taxes, student loans) go to the common good, and you get very little in return from the government (because you're responsible) not to mention the fact that you never get 2/3 of your pay to begin with because your ER patients (who you're treating because you do want to help people) don't pay you (but they still sue you). At this point, maybe, just maybe, you'll see why so many of us are disgruntled and quote Atlas Shrugged. The longer you pull the cart, the less it feels good to be a liberal. I'm just sayin'...

If you can maintain a positive do-gooder attitude after that, my hat's off to you.

Only time will tell. Admittedly all this chatter about this book has peaked my interest, never heard of it before frequenting this board. Going to check it out after Step 1.

 

[GeneralVeers]

I don't see how those are contradicting statements. Just because the system is broke doesn't mean it has to be. So I guess a better way to state it would be I wouldn't have a problem paying taxes assuming they were actually doing some good.


Only time will tell. Admittedly all this chatter about this book has peaked my interest, never heard of it before frequenting this board. Going to check it out after Step 1.

Set aside about a month do read it, as it is extremely long. Overall a great read.

 

[pseudoknot]

The thing that frustrates me most is that the people who espouse the "greater good" concept and want to help everyone aren't satisfied just giving away their own money. They have to TAKE my money and the money of others who disagree with them as well.

If you want to help the poor, then by all means donate, volunteer, and help in any way you feel is appropriate. Stealing from others to make you feel good about yourself is still theft.

If you can find a country with a lower tax rate than ours, and a society in which you still want to live, then you ought to go there. If you can't find such a thing, you ought to think about why that is. The taxes are pretty low in Somalia, I hear.

 

[GeneralVeers]

If you can find a country with a lower tax rate than ours, and a society in which you still want to live, then you ought to go there. If you can't find such a thing, you ought to think about why that is. The taxes are pretty low in Somalia, I hear.

Irrelevent. Just because our income taxes are lower than many of the socialist democracies around the world doesn't make them any more moral. Theft is theft, whether you are taking 10% or 50% of my salary by force.

Income and payroll taxes are immoral. If Progressives are really concerned about the plight of the poor, then at the end of every year they can pledge a certain percentage of their salary to be withheld for the purposes of making them feel good about themselves.

 

[pseudoknot]

Income and payroll taxes are immoral.

We'll just have to agree to disagree. It's ironic that the hardcore libertarians are right alongside the old line communists in advocating a society that has never been demonstrated to work in practice.

 

[Birdstrike]

If you can find a country with a lower tax rate than ours, and a society in which you still want to live, then you ought to go there. If you can't find such a thing, you ought to think about why that is. The taxes are pretty low in Somalia, I hear.

Let me follow your logic: "because its worse elsewhere, we should make it worse here". Hmmm. Not for me.

Can I make a suggestion, could you please (without reflexively thinking "but YOU can afford it, I can't") give away 50-70% of every single one of your paychecks, every 2 weeks for the rest of you life without ever getting it back, before this conversation goes any further. I know you guys are young and idealistic and you want to save the world, but please do it with your own money, too. I think $2,000,000,000,000 (2010 Federal Budget = $2 trillion) is enough for our government to help the needy. But....here's a wake up call.....they have no interest in that. They use that money to buy...................


.......votes. Which equal more..........power. Which equals............are you ready:


more............money. For..............THEM.

It really is that simple.

 

[deleted109597]

We'll just have to agree to disagree. It's ironic that the hardcore libertarians are right alongside the old line communists in advocating a society that has never been demonstrated to work in practice.

No society has worked up to this point.

 

[GeneralVeers]

As you can see above it's awlays about spending "other people's money", I suggest that all the Liberals on this forum spend every cent of their own money first helping the poor before they come after my property.

 

[Saladin MD]

Deleted. Never mind, I don't want to join this crapfest.

 

[coldweatherblue]

yeah, I don't really get the point of being pissed off at all of this. Of course politics is complete crap. The gov doesn't care about us. Politicians only say what they want to get elected. blah blah, this is stuff you think about in high-school. Who cares? there's nothing we can do.. it will only bring you down. I remember working construction in the ghetto when i was 15; a crackhead came around asking for money for food; i gave him my only sandwich, and he walked to the street, looked at it, and threw it in the garbage. that's just the way it goes.

on the flip side..

girls are amazing.. getting barreled is free.. medicine is interesting.. my family hasn't been sold into slavery. i'm not doing 10 years in the roman legion... the sun is shining, weather is sweet. I never expected life to be fair. Honestly I'm surprised I made it to 26 without dying from a wound infection, starving or being eaten by wolves. let the people in Gov play their mind games; i'll be playing music with my friends, surfing, and riding as much fresh as possible. PEACE.

 

[deleted65604]

What does "getting barreled" mean? What is "catching fresh"?

 

[coldweatherblue]

They are surfing/snowboarding terms, but take it to mean some kind of inspirational garbage about finding whatever makes you happy and fulfilled, and letting what you cannot control work itself out.

newport was good this morning but not as good as this!

getting barreled

and fwiw I'm a fiscal conservative who disagrees with Gov spending and will fight for every dollar I can get to be adequately compensated for my hard work in order to give my family the best life possible. I expect not to be adequately compensated and I expect to barely be able to pay off my debt, however, it's still a good life. It's easy to lose perspective by focusing on what you want but cannot obtain, when in reality we have very privileged, enjoyable lives compared with all other times in history.

 

[EgotiStick]

I've been liberal all my life, and still to this day believe that social programs should exist to prevent people from being stuck on the floor.

The longer I live, however, I find that the hard-work I've learned to invest in everything just isn't possible by some other people. I don't have a solution better than the current system, and the chunk of my earnings disappearing every month in vane just becomes harder and harder to swallow. Before starting med school, I worked >60 hours a week to pay off debt and create savings before school. Since starting, I've consistently worked ~10-15 hours a week as an M1 and haven't fell off through M2.

It's unfortunate but some people just don't have "it"

 

[Apollyon]

I've been liberal all my life, and still to this day believe that social programs should exist to prevent people from being stuck on the floor.

The longer I live, however, I find that the hard-work I've learned to invest in everything just isn't possible by some other people. I don't have a solution better than the current system, and the chunk of my earnings disappearing every month in vane just becomes harder and harder to swallow. Before starting med school, I worked >60 hours a week to pay off debt and create savings before school. Since starting, I've consistently worked ~10-15 hours a week as an M1 and haven't fell off through M2.

It's unfortunate but some people just don't have "it"

And you've hit the nail on the head. There's that old saw - "if you're not a liberal at 20, you have no heart, and, if you're not a conservative at 40, you have no brain". I, too, was always on the left side of the aisle (but, then again, I was anti-abortion and anti-death penalty - truly "pro-life", so I don't know where that puts me), but, as I now am in practice, and am still neck-deep in debt, "redistribution of wealth" rankles me. I mean, if I can work for it, why can't someone else? Or, alternatively, why can't I put my hand out and get something for nothing?

If all you've ever known is hard work, and that anything worth having is worth working for, versus all you've ever known is sitting at home and getting a check from the government for doing nothing, there's quite a disconnect. We learn from our forebears - parents, parents of friends, family, neighbors, and if what we learn is self-respect and a good work ethic, then good things follow. If what we learn is that "someone else will do it, and then I benefit", well, it ain't brain surgery to figure out the results; however, to spell it out, it's a negative spiral into nothingness.

 

[EgotiStick]

And you've hit the nail on the head. There's that old saw - "if you're not a liberal at 20, you have no heart, and, if you're not a conservative at 40, you have no brain". I, too, was always on the left side of the aisle (but, then again, I was anti-abortion and anti-death penalty - truly "pro-life", so I don't know where that puts me), but, as I now am in practice, and am still neck-deep in debt, "redistribution of wealth" rankles me. I mean, if I can work for it, why can't someone else? Or, alternatively, why can't I put my hand out and get something for nothing?

If all you've ever known is hard work, and that anything worth having is worth working for, versus all you've ever known is sitting at home and getting a check from the government for doing nothing, there's quite a disconnect. We learn from our forebears - parents, parents of friends, family, neighbors, and if what we learn is self-respect and a good work ethic, then good things follow. If what we learn is that "someone else will do it, and then I benefit", well, it ain't brain surgery to figure out the results; however, to spell it out, it's a negative spiral into nothingness.

If only we could create a system of entitlements that didn't leave people feeling so entitled.

Alternatively, though, the sense of entitlement is really becoming a facet of American culture, and I don't think its directly related to the prominence of social welfare programs. Even as a scholarship athlete, where it was clear that you had to work hard to succeed, some former teammates' parents came in to bitch at the coaches about playing time. While the son was in college. As upperclassmen.

And every time the coaches would roll the tape. The parents would leave slamming the door on the way out like they just sat through someone downright blaspheming Jesus. I will never forget that.

 

[docB]

If only we could create a system of entitlements that didn't leave people feeling so entitled.

There are ways to do that. Making sure every entitlement requires a quid pro quo has worked in the past. After welfare reform in the 90s welfare recipients were required to prove they were looking for work. Many just went through the motions but in doing so "discovered" that they could make better money than they expected by working and got jobs. There have been a multitude of other programs aimed at requiring some token labor or effort in order to get benefits.

The reason that these programs have never really caught on is that politicians gain votes by giving people things. We essentially have a situation now and for the past several decades where one party is promising their voters that they will take money from others and give it to them. The other party is promising their constituents that they will help them keep more of their money. The redistributers are winning and soon we will reach a tipping point where more than 50% of the electorate gets more from the government than it pays in. At that point bad things are going to happen.

 

[UnderwaterDoc]

There are ways to do that. Making sure every entitlement requires a quid pro quo has worked in the past. After welfare reform in the 90s welfare recipients were required to prove they were looking for work. Many just went through the motions but in doing so "discovered" that they could make better money than they expected by working and got jobs. There have been a multitude of other programs aimed at requiring some token labor or effort in order to get benefits.

The reason that these programs have never really caught on is that politicians gain votes by giving people things. We essentially have a situation now and for the past several decades where one party is promising their voters that they will take money from others and give it to them. The other party is promising their constituents that they will help them keep more of their money. The redistributers are winning and soon we will reach a tipping point where more than 50% of the electorate gets more from the government than it pays in. At that point bad things are going to happen.

That's why I'm going to pay off my debt as fast as humanly possible, and I will always, always, ALWAYS live within my means. No big-ass house or Ferrari for me, no siree.

 

[cbrons]

One only has to look at "progressive" California to see the future of this country. The state with the most generous social programs, environmental laws, and highest taxes, is also the one with the worst budget problems and crushing infrastructure problems.

Same in Illinois its really a nightmare

 

[sleepymed]

sadly i used to be much more liberal before i started residency. i don't know if residency has made me more cynical, or if residency has just exposed me to a different kind of people, but the amount of people are reasonably healthy who come in on "disability" talking on their iphone who say, "no sorry doctor, i'm too sick to work" have made me jaded. why is a 24 year old on disability????? *IM* baseline sicker.

i am all about giving money to people who need it, i love the fact that working in the er, i don't have to care about how people are going to pay and i don't have to worry as much about their type of insurance status before taking care of them.

but i *would* like to know that people are working on getting out of their "plight." this is probably socialism, but it should be a "job," that check should come in exchange for some sort of work. if you say you can't do something manual, be a paper pusher, etc and then after working there for a while, the office can also serve as a way to help you get a better job. it is not fair to be just "giving away" the money that so many people work hard to earn, those same people who aren't getting iphones because they are living paycheck to paycheck should not have their money spent by somebody else on an iphone.

 

[Birdstrike]

If only we could create a system of entitlements that didn't leave people feeling so entitled..

I'll create it right now. Ready: You work for 2 weeks, you're entitled to a paycheck.

I expect not to be adequately compensated and I expect to barely be able to pay off my debt, however, it's still a good life. It's easy to lose perspective by focusing on what you want but cannot obtain, when in reality we have very privileged, enjoyable lives compared with all other times in history.

Amen to your enjoy life attitude. I also enjoy my life immensely and have it very good. However, I always want to improve the situation for myself and my family. We all need to fight for our rights as physicians. For too long, docs have refused to stand up for themselves out of fear of being called greedy, and instead fight each other and get screwed (you're not a doc yet, you'll know what I mean by this eventually). It doesn't involve that much: Stay informed. Vote. Donate money to politicians. Have respect for yourself and what hard work you've put in and how much you give to society every day. Care. If you expect to be screwed, the powers that be will oblige you and you will be: royally. If you actually fight for your own rights, you may get screwed, but a least you may get dinner and a movie beforehand.

 

[Indryd]

People who believe taxes are immoral/criminal should spend a month using no roads, eating nothing with corn in it, watching no television, not using their phones, not using electricity, not flying or taking trains, etc etc etc

Some of you guys are unreal, seriously.

 

[deleted65604]

and fwiw I'm a fiscal conservative who disagrees with Gov spending and will fight for every dollar I can get to be adequately compensated for my hard work in order to give my family the best life possible. I expect not to be adequately compensated and I expect to barely be able to pay off my debt, however, it's still a good life. It's easy to lose perspective by focusing on what you want but cannot obtain, when in reality we have very privileged, enjoyable lives compared with all other times in history.

Your words seem discordant to me. On one hand, you advocate not being outspoken about political issues, then you describe yourself as a fiscal conservative. Surely, you see some government actions of late that you disagree with.

I realize I'm privileged. I'm a physician for crying out loud. I worked very hard to get there. I believe that even the poorest among us are also privileged. People in this country are guaranteed a warm, dry place to sleep. There are shelters all over every large city doling out free food to whoever wants it. We have free K-12 education, food stamps, subsidized housing, welfare, medicare, medicaid, etc. There are grants and low interest loans from the government for higher education. And yet, people still want more. They actually think it is their right to get it. What percentage of the population of the earth have this safety net? What percentage of the people who have ever lived on the planet had this safety net? 0.0001 percent? Even our poor are privileged.

Read Michael Moore's words:

http://www.jsonline.com/blogs/news/117463643.html

He has the nerve to tell you that even though our country is trillions in debt, that we aren't broke.

Do you believe Michael Moore, or this guy:

http://www.jsonline.com/blogs/news/117463643.html

 

[deleted65604]

People who believe taxes are immoral/criminal should spend a month using no roads, eating nothing with corn in it, watching no television, not using their phones, not using electricity, not flying or taking trains, etc etc etc

Some of you guys are unreal, seriously.

I believe in taxes. I don't believe we should extend even more handouts to the populace right now (given the current massive amount of entitlement programs we have).

I don't believe that it is the governments job to redistribute wealth and make everyone equal. I believe the current amount of redistribution of wealth that our country is engaged in is more than enough.

 

[EctopicFetus]

People who believe taxes are immoral/criminal should spend a month using no roads, eating nothing with corn in it, watching no television, not using their phones, not using electricity, not flying or taking trains, etc etc etc

Some of you guys are unreal, seriously.

Indryd, you are missing the point. I think just about anyone on here would believe that the govt has a role. We each have our opinions but the majority of us dont believe the role involves paying for other people's mistakes. We all have our stories but people who con the system for disability we shouldnt pay for, we shouldnt pay for others health insurance (esp those who can work).

Why does the govt decide taxpayer money is good for solar energy but not for other forms? Why? The govt is corrupt (this is a fact) and the more money they have the more corrupt they will be.

 

[GeneralVeers]

40% of people pay no income taxes or get a net tax payout (though many pay payroll tax). That means that 40% of people utilize the governments services, safety net, and handout but pays nothing into many of those programs. Pretty soon over 50% will be net tax recipients. Democracy dies when people realize that they can vote themselves the material wealth of others.

 

[Lokhtar]

The thing that frustrates me most is that the people who espouse the "greater good" concept and want to help everyone aren't satisfied just giving away their own money. They have to TAKE my money and the money of others who disagree with them as well.

If you want to help the poor, then by all means donate, volunteer, and help in any way you feel is appropriate. Stealing from others to make you feel good about yourself is still theft.

Welcome to civil society - the more you earn, the more obligations you have. Bill Gates won't be going taking the bus (and neither will people making over $500k) because they are taxed more, but they should pay a lot more than the guys making $30k. This Reaganesque fantasy of welfare queens riding BMWs past hard working business owners in a used Honda is not based in reality.

 

[GeneralVeers]

Welcome to civil society - the more you earn, the more obligations you have. Bill Gates won't be going taking the bus (and neither will people making over $500k) because they are taxed more, but they should pay a lot more than the guys making $30k. This Reaganesque fantasy of welfare queens riding BMWs past hard working business owners in a used Honda is not based in reality.

Why should they pay more? Shouldn't the people who use services pay for them?

 

[Lokhtar]

Why should they pay more? Shouldn't the people who use services pay for them?

Some services you ought to pay for individually (like your phone bill). But others, like police protection - and, I believe, healthcare - should be paid collectively for the benefit of everyone and regardless of a particular person's individual economic status.

 

[GeneralVeers]

Some services you ought to pay for individually (like your phone bill). But others, like police protection - and, I believe, healthcare - should be paid collectively for the benefit of everyone and regardless of a particular person's individual economic status.

I agree about police/fire protection. Everyone technically "uses" those services so should pay into them. The same goes for military, currency, and elections. Disagree about healthcare. Most of health is about making personal choices, and one person should not pay for the bad choices of another.

Also, roads, water service, sewer service, schools should be paid for on an individual basis.

 

[ccfccp]

Some services you ought to pay for individually (like your phone bill). But others, like police protection - and, I believe, healthcare - should be paid collectively for the benefit of everyone and regardless of a particular person's individual economic status.

I'm not sure if this is pertinent, but want Uncle Sam to pay for your phone bill? Try Safelink Wireless! https://www.safelinkwireless.com/EnrollmentPublic/benefits.aspx

Meet certain requirements and the taxpayers WILL pay for your phone bill.

 

[bravotwozero]

I'm not sure if this is pertinent, but want Uncle Sam to pay for your phone bill? Try Safelink Wireless! https://www.safelinkwireless.com/EnrollmentPublic/benefits.aspx

Meet certain requirements and the taxpayers WILL pay for your phone bill.

Erm, the link you mentioned specifically said that the program is NOT funded by taxpayers, but by private telecom companies, like tracfone...

 

[Lokhtar]

I agree about police/fire protection. Everyone technically "uses" those services so should pay into them. The same goes for military, currency, and elections. Disagree about healthcare. Most of health is about making personal choices, and one person should not pay for the bad choices of another.

Many healthcare problems do result from bad choices, though not all. Children for example have no choice. Many people with things like cancers had no choice. Secondly, a lot of people in our criminal justice system have also made bad choices, yet we pay for their lawyers and other costs when they get in trouble, and we pay for their protection when they are out and living in society. Certain things are essential in a civil society, things like education, food, water, police, etc. We all need it and we all use it, and its availability ought not be based on your economic situation.

 

[Lokhtar]

On a related note: http://www.boston.com/bostonglobe/e...vermonts_single.html?p1=Well_MostPop_Emailed5

I don't have that much hope for many of the states, but hopefully this catches on. According to him PCPs will see an increase in their earnings...not sure if that will be the case, but we shall see.

 

[deleted65604]

Certain things are essential in a civil society, things like education, food, water, police, etc. We all need it and we all use it, and its availability ought not be based on your economic situation.

We all need food, but the government doesn't pay for everyone's grocery bill. It is nice and sometimes life-saving to have a warm, dry place to sleep, but we don't expect the government to pay everyone's mortgages, or do you? We all would die without water (much more essential than health-care), yet I see no political movements advocating for free utility bills for all Americans. Most of us would be in danger of freezing to death in the middle of the winter if we didn't have electricity or gas to warm our residences. We all need clothes (some of use more than others due to embarrasment and the weather where we live.) Surely, many people would have sore feet without shoes. Shouldn't the government provide free clothes, coats, and foot wear to all? It is hard to chew without good teeth, shouldn't the government provide free tooth cleaning and toothbrushes to all? The government already pays for k-12 education and gives need based grants and low interest (relatively speaking) loans. Where does the gravy-train end for you?

Why are you OK with the government giving free food, housing, utilities only to those under the poverty line, but demand that government give free health care to all?

Do you advocate that we all have EXACTLY the same standard of living, regardless of ability or work ethic?

 

[Lokhtar]

If people were dying of starvation or thirst like they are for lack of access to healthcare, I'd support a system that is collective - and we already have it - like food stamps.

 

[deleted65604]

Do you mean we already have a healthcare system that is collective? Or that we have a social program that is collective?

Food stamps are like medicaid. They are not given to the collective. They are only given to those who can't afford to buy their own food.

Discard the fact that the government really shouldn't be involved in food stamps due to the overwhelming number of soup kitchens that are funded through charitable organizations throughout the country.

 

[Lokhtar]

Do you mean we already have a healthcare system that is collective? Or that we have a social program that is collective?

Well, we do in medicare, but we have other social programs that are collective too.

Discard the fact that the government really shouldn't be involved in food stamps due to the overwhelming number of soup kitchens that are funded through charitable organizations throughout the country.

Been to a soup kitchen? They run out of food all the time. It's nowhere near enough. But we'll disagree here. My parents own a grocery store...things like WIC are crucial for people to be able to feed their families. The federal government absolutely should be involved - I actually think it should be (though it's not now) one of their essential functions.

 

[ccfccp]

Erm, the link you mentioned specifically said that the program is NOT funded by taxpayers, but by private telecom companies, like tracfone...

You're right. My bad. However, I looked into the funding of Tracfone, and this is what I found...

"The Lifeline program is not funded from federal taxpayer dollars, but rather from contributions to the USF by telecommunications carriers collected in part from the Universal Service Charge billed to cell phone users."

In the end, it still gets paid for by everybody else and not the person using the service.

 

[Lokhtar]

Well it's like any other charity - it's voluntary on part of the telecom companies. If you're a stakeholder in the company and you don't like it, I'm sure you can raise a fuss. Many corporations donate money (and in essence, all their customers pay for that donation), for tax purposes, for increasing goodwill toward their brand, or just because they want to.

 

[Hamhock]

I agree about police/fire protection. Everyone technically "uses" those services so should pay into them. The same goes for military, currency, and elections. Disagree about healthcare. Most of health is about making personal choices, and one person should not pay for the bad choices of another.

Also, roads, water service, sewer service, schools should be paid for on an individual basis.

Yes, I think most people agree about police/fire/military/elections (although I think those should be funded differently; that a whole nother thread).

I think healthcare is up for debate.

However, GV, I think you should re-consider "roads, water service, sewer service, schools", as the gov't paying for these actually helps not just everyone, but you specifically (even if you aren't using the service).

I see schools and sewer systems like I do vaccines. I think we should pay for every damn person who is willing to get stuck with MMR, flu, etc. Not only does this help the person receiving the vaccine, but heard immunity helps me and you. No, we are not receiving the service directly, but we should pay for it, no? (don't say each person should pay for it, because we both know that won't happen).

Analogously, I have no problem with public sewer systems. I don't directly benefit when Jack Schmit flushes, but by greatly improved public health and decreased communicable disease, I avoid such great things as cholera.

Schools and roads, you say?

Well the analogy is not as tight, but I think it is there...especially if you are not a physician but some CEO or the like. All the rich business people depend on the infrastructure (which includes both educated workers and roads to distribute goods) to make way more money with this infrastructure in place than they would make without it or than they pay in taxes (even if they didn't drive on these roads and went to private school).

So, yes, I agree with you on many fronts, but I find it frustrating when many libertarians and some strict "fiscal" conservatives (which GV and others here may or may not include themsleves in, but I suspect proudly do) don't recognize how their prosperity is at least partially dependent on the government supporting programs that "don't directly benefit" them and should be "paid for by people who use the services".

Sadly, my analogy above is used by liberals to extend "programs" to the other extreme.

HH

 

[Lokhtar]

I would probably be one of those liberals, but I'd use the same argument for healthcare as you did for education. From a purely economic perspective, it's nice not to worry about your employee's healthcare plans, or not have to worry about your own families' if you want to start a new business, move jobs, etc.

 

[Birdstrike]

I would probably be one of those liberals, but I'd use the same argument for healthcare as you did for education. From a purely economic perspective, it's nice not to worry about your employee's healthcare plans, or not have to worry about your own families' if you want to start a new business, move jobs, etc.

I was at CME course last week and was talking to a doc from Madrid Spain. I asked him, "So, how are things over in Spain?". His answer, "Terrible. The economy has been destroyed, we're bankrupt, unemployment is 20%, taxes are unbearable. We're the next country about to collapse, to be rescued by the European Union. The Socialists have destroyed the country and they want to take more taxes, start more government programs and agencies to make it 'all better'. They keep saying, 'if only you'd let us do this, or do that, or give us a little more money we can fix things.'" I find it quite interesting, that despite the repeated collapse of socialist welfare states one after the other, with not one flourishing, from USSR to East Germany, to Greece, Italy, Portugal and next, Spain, we think that if we're the last domino, we're special, we just won't fall. Some people are content to march right off the cliff as long as they can hold on to the dream that they're fixing all of the worlds ills with their taxes and social programs. There is also never a shortage of people to vote for it either, because of the promise that they'll always make someone with more money than you pay for it. The first country in history to offer freedom to succeed or fail, instead of big brother's guarantee of economic security for all, has immigrants fighting tooth and nail to get in, climb walls, dig tunnels, row boat across dangerous waters to get here. We're the only country in history that has to consider building a "great wall" to keep people out, because people want to get in, not build a wall to keep people from escaping (i.e., Berlin Wall). This is because this was the first country in history to allow its people freedom from government oppression, not because it gave its people the cushiest free ride.

 

[deleted65604]

Well, we do in medicare, but we have other social programs that are collective too.

What national government program do we have that pays for EVERYONE, regardless of economic status? If you use more water, you pay more for your water bill. Use more electricity, you pay more for your power bill.

 

[UnderwaterDoc]

Having lived in a communist country for over 16 years, all I can say about most social programs is that they are crap.

Why? Well because they are too easy to cheat and be taken advantage of. The intent is good - to help people down on their luck to bounce back - but there will always be those who don't care about bouncing back, don't care who is financing their lives.

Obviously there are social services and programs which we all need and use, but healthcare should NOT be one of them. It is not my job to give you my money if all you do is shoot up and get drunk. Maybe instead of handing out welfare checks we should give out essentials, food/water/clothing/shelter, the rest is your job to procure under your own means.

To those wanting to expand social programs and redistribute wealth, I say go live in Cuba for a couple of years, and see how well the redistribution of wealth worked over there.