EM PD - Ask Me Anything

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I am a current M1 at an US allopathic school. I am very interested in EM, but my school does not have an EM residency program. There is not even a EM residency in the city. How can I set myself up for mentoring and enough SLOE's? My school averages 10-12 EM matches every year so they all find a way to make it work, I'm just not sure how to go about it since I won't have any possibility of doing EM rotations until the very end of M3/beginning of M4. I have heard that I shouldn't expect a SLOE out of my first EM rotation because I will have so much to learn that I won't be as impressive as I hopefully will be by the next rotations... would you agree with this?

Thank you for your help, it is greatly appreciated!

I agree with what was said in the post below. If your school has an EM interest group, I'd talk to the 4th years that matched recently about what they did. You can get tons of online advice in general for applying to EM. But for specifics of scheduling for your school, its probably best to talk to the people locally that went through it.

As for SLOEs, you can absolutely get a SLOE from your first EM rotation as a 4th year. The SLOE has a section that specifically tries to address this, asking is this the students 1st, 2nd, 3rd, etc rotation in EM. Students in July are not judged with the same expectations as students in November, at least in my opinion.

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What do the top 10 candidates on your rank order list look like on paper and in person? Does it change from year to year?

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What do the top 10 candidates on your rank order list look like on paper and in person? Does it change from year to year?

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They have mostly Top 10% sloes. The majority rotated with us and got a top 10% SLOE from our institution. All of them are generally outstanding people and fit in well with our facutly/residents when they rotate or come to interview. Other than that, its all over the place. You'll find people with research, no research, national committees, no organization involvement, high board scores, low board scores... its really variable. The two constants are, excellent clinical performance and personable people that fit in well with the team. That doesn't change year to year.
 
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Is the distribution of SLOE rankings that you see skewed at all? ie, do more than 10% of candidates have top 10% SLOEs, do fewer than 33% have bottom 33% SLOEs, etc.
 
Definitely skewed, but depends on the institution.

Its usually something like this:

# of SLOEs 20

Top 10% - 5
Top 1/3 - 8
Mid 1/3 - 6
Low 1/3 - 1

You'll see like 40-50% of the people are top 1/3. The top 10% are exclusive, but still usually more than 10%. The majority of the candidates are top 1/3 and mid 1/3, with only a few (or sometimes zero) rated as low 1/3.

That's just a hypothetical example. Some programs are much better than others at sticking to a true statistical distribution.
 
Definitely skewed, but depends on the institution.

Its usually something like this:

# of SLOEs 20

Top 10% - 5
Top 1/3 - 8
Mid 1/3 - 6
Low 1/3 - 1

You'll see like 40-50% of the people are top 1/3. The top 10% are exclusive, but still usually more than 10%. The majority of the candidates are top 1/3 and mid 1/3, with only a few (or sometimes zero) rated as low 1/3.

That's just a hypothetical example. Some programs are much better than others at sticking to a true statistical distribution.

How do those "tiers" correlate to grades (H/HP/P)? For example, is there ever a top 10% without honors?
 
How do those "tiers" correlate to grades (H/HP/P)? For example, is there ever a top 10% without honors?

It's hard, because some places actually grade and other places are just pass/fail. And many osteopathic schools use a different grading system than the traditional H, HP, P grading system (ABCDE or percentage grade). So grading can be all over the place. But on the SLOE it asks what the grade was and uses the H, HP, P system. So what I do is develop an internal grade based on the H, HP, P system (regardless of what the school's system is that I have to fill out for the school).

I think for the most part, yeah, it lines up pretty well. You'll see Honors being mostly top 10 and HP mostly top 1/3 as a rough estimate, but it doesn't always correlate. From a students perspective, if I had 3 SLOEs and was only going to post two on ERAS, then it would make the most sense to post the two SLOEs from the rotations with the highest grades.
 
I think a more interesting question is I'd love to know is, how do different program's SLOE rankings actually correlate to their match list in the end. Are people who were pegged top 10, top 1/3, mid 1/3, etc in the SLOEs actually getting slotted in those places on the match list in the end? For us, it definitely holds pretty true, but I'd love to know if that's true everywhere. It'll never be completely accurate however, since students rotate with you and you don't know their full story or have their complete record. So sometimes a top 10% can fall completely off the list if there is a major red flag you didn't know about. And someone who rotates early and you think is maybe a top 1/3 might turn out to be an all star on subsequent rotations and move further up the list by the time they come to interview. All in all though, I'd say the SLOE ranks are pretty accurate to the final rank categories, give or take some exceptions.
 
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When asked about "Why EM?", how much should one downplay (or be open about) their ADHD? Of course it's the joke that everyone in EM is ADHD, but what if you actually are and don't take meds and EM is the perfect environment for you? Random schedule, patients show up with anything and everything, actual emergencies that you have to do stuff about, constant multi-tasking, help with re-direction by nurses/techs/patients, etc.
 
When asked about "Why EM?", how much should one downplay (or be open about) their ADHD? Of course it's the joke that everyone in EM is ADHD, but what if you actually are and don't take meds and EM is the perfect environment for you? Random schedule, patients show up with anything and everything, actual emergencies that you have to do stuff about, constant multi-tasking, help with re-direction by nurses/techs/patients, etc.
Piggybacking off his question.... what if you are ADHD AND you take meds?
 
When asked about "Why EM?", how much should one downplay (or be open about) their ADHD? Of course it's the joke that everyone in EM is ADHD, but what if you actually are and don't take meds and EM is the perfect environment for you? Random schedule, patients show up with anything and everything, actual emergencies that you have to do stuff about, constant multi-tasking, help with re-direction by nurses/techs/patients, etc.
I'm not in EM, but this seems like the absolute worst possible answer to that question.
 
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I'm not in EM, but this seems like the absolute worst possible answer to that question.

Worse than money and chicks? Or better yet, "easy hours, just triage everything, go home and get paid"? Your hyperbole aside I obviously like EM for other reasons, but the reality is it's perfect for people actually with ADHD. I guess I can just list all the reasons why it's great and not specifically mention ADHD.
 
I don't know if it truly is great for people with legitimate ADHD. I mean, you are literally interrupted every 5 minutes in the ED. There are constant distractions. If you had out of control ADHD, I'd imagine that would lead to considerable number of errors. It already does for people without ADHD. Not saying people with some ADHD tendencies don't find EM attractive and flock to EM, but I do think that people with legitimate ADHD that's uncontrolled could find it difficult.

As for bringing it up, there is no reason to. Medical stuff is off limits, however, not if you bring it up. So if you start talking about out of control ADHD in your interview, then its fair game for them to discuss. If its never brought up, they'll never know.

Now do people bring it up? Sure, all the time, jovially. Usually saying something in answering "why EM" to say "it seems like most ED docs have a little bit of ADHD" etc.
 
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Where do you see the field of EM in 10 years? Any changes in technology/treatment/etc. that you foresee?
 
Can you compare/contrast what it's like to supervise residents versus supervising PAs?
 
Where do you see the field of EM in 10 years? Any changes in technology/treatment/etc. that you foresee?

I have no clue where medicine is going, but I'm certain it'll change. People don't consume medicine like they used to. In the past, people cared who their doctor was. Now it doesn't matter. Patients look at medical care like any other good/service. There is no "brand loyalty". They want to go wherever is the most convenient for them, and where they perceive they got the best service. What this means is, primary care has to change drastically or its going to die. No one is willing to wait for an appointment. Ever. If people are sick, they come to the ED or an urgent care rather than see their doctor the next day. There is no incentive to wait, because they don't care who takes care of them. People want their care dealt with, and they want it done immediately.

That has obviously led to an abundant abuse of the ED. ED's aren't for emergencies. They are for the occaisional emergency, mixed in with a huge amount of things that could be / should be dealt with on an outpatient basis. We have gotten so efficient at working things up and coming to an answer in the ED, not only do patients not want to wait for the primary doc, but primary docs don't want to wait for stuff. There's no need to await pre-authorization for testing. Just send the patient to the ED and have them find out what's going on.

This is obviously not news. This has been an ongoing process since before I went into residency. But its only now that we are reaping the problem with the system that was setup this way. Like any 24 hour operation, ED's are expensive places to run especially when you consider all the resources and ancillary services that go into keeping a 24 hour ED afloat. And the federal govt mandates EDs to see and stabilize people regardless of ability to pay, so paying customers are subsizing the 30% or so of people who aren't paying for their care. This leads to healthcare that is unbelievably expensive to obtain in the ED. Being seen for an earache at the PCP or urgent care will lead to a sizably smaller bill than being seen for the same earache in the ED. But the ED is open at all times. You don't need an appointment. And cost doesn't matter. Medicaid patients have no co-pays. Uninsured patients just won't pay. And people with insurance are often willing to pay the pricey co-pays for the convenience of being seen at their convenience, not the convenience of their PCP.

No matter how much we try to disincentivize ED visits from an insurance standpoint, people keep flocking to the ED for care. When you couple this with an aging society that absolutely wants to have every possible medical procedure until they die at 100, and you realize the cost of the healthcare system will quickly become unsustainable in this country.

So where will we be in 10 years? I honestly don't know. I think eventually the federal govt could takeover healthcare much like Canada, and at that point will try to restrict ED use because of how expensive it is. 10 years? 20 years? Never? Who knows. This is just pure speculation.

Back to what I said earlier though about primary care needing to change or die. What I do see technologically that is going to revolutionize primary care is E-visits. Almost everyone has a smart phone. And its not like a good physical exam is honestly necessary to triage most things. One solution to people wanting to be seen right now, and having no patience to wait, will be the rise in telemedicine. I can envision a day where you get entered into a wait list while you are at home, and your PCP will call you for an E-visit where they will "examine you" by getting some biometric vital signs through your phone/watch/wifi enabled bp cuff, etc and will interview you. And for all the simple stuff, they will e-prescribe your meds. No visit. No wait time. Less office overhead. I think this is going to be a big growing industry in medicine. How much of it will eat into our business in the ED? Who knows. But it will kill urgent cares IMO.
 
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Can you compare/contrast what it's like to supervise residents versus supervising PAs?

You are trying to get me killed on this forum here, aren't you?

Ok to answer the question, it depends on your job. Junior midlevels are tougher to work with and require a lot of supervision, just like an intern, but they don't progress anywhere as fast as a resident (obviously). It can take years for a midlevel to get independently functional to where they are really trustworthy in the ED. On the other hand, once they get to that point, midlevels with years of ED experience are far easier to work with than a PGY1 obviously. I know that's going to offend some people, but I'm sorry, I've worked with midlevels at every stage of my career and I can tell you, the ones with a bunch of years of experience are absolutely terrific at their job. Do they still need my help sometimes to run a case by me? Sure. Absolutely. They know their limitations, but for the most part, they are excellent at their job. So if you had to supervise a PA with 5-10 years of experience over a brand new intern, I think that's a no-brainer to pick the mid-level if you are looking at just having an easy shift.

On the other hand, you don't do academics just to have it easy (no seriously, you don't). An experienced PA who is knocking out abd pain cases and suturing lac's isn't exactly going to need my help. There's not going to be a ton of discussion about the case. There's little teaching at that point of their career. That's not rewarding to me. I like to teach, discuss cases, supervise, etc. So I prefer to work with residents, strictly because I like that give and take interaction better than just overseeing someone knock out a bunch of straight forward cases.

The ED is a big place and I think mid-levels definitely have a role. But they aren't replacing us any time soon.
 
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You are trying to get me killed on this forum here, aren't you?

Haha, no! Was trying to ask a legitimate question in the least loaded way possible. My motivation for asking was that I like working with people, talking about patients' presentations and fine-tuning workups... and I love teaching... So you'd think academics would be a great fit, right? But there's more to academics than just those two things, and if those are the main two things I'm looking for, I'm wondering how I might find ways to scratch that itch in the community. Your answer is very helpful, thanks!
 
Haha, no! Was trying to ask a legitimate question in the least loaded way possible. My motivation for asking was that I like working with people, talking about patients' presentations and fine-tuning workups... and I love teaching... So you'd think academics would be a great fit, right? But there's more to academics than just those two things, and if those are the main two things I'm looking for, I'm wondering how I might find ways to scratch that itch in the community. Your answer is very helpful, thanks!

A great job to consider for someone like you, who loves to teach clincally but doesn't want to go to conference, do research, lecture, etc.

Consider a clinical (not core) faculty position in a residency. You'll get to work with resident clinically, and while you won't get paid academic time, you won't have to go to conference or meet any ACGME requirements regarding research. It's like any other ED job, all you have to do is your shifts, but you still have the advantage of having residents to work with and teach.
 
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A great job to consider for someone like you, who loves to teach clincally but doesn't want to go to conference, do research, lecture, etc.

Consider a clinical (not core) faculty position in a residency. You'll get to work with resident clinically, and while you won't get paid academic time, you won't have to go to conference or meet any ACGME requirements regarding research. It's like any other ED job, all you have to do is your shifts, but you still have the advantage of having residents to work with and teach.
That's excellent - Didn't realize that was an option at all. Thank you!
 
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A couple questions
1) Do you have a personal statement for the VSAS application? And if so how important is it?
2) Do you still interview people for residency who turn down an away or have to send a polite email explaining a conflict (b/c another program accepted them later, but you don't necessarily now that since the email says date conflicts)?
3) I'm starting my personal statement....or planning to, but it is daunting. I've been told to just keep the personal statement not memorable you are golden. Is this true?
4) If you think you are interested in one fellowship over another, should/can this be the focus of your personal statement? I have an idea of what I want to do, but I don't necessarily want to chose my program based on it because I'm open minded.
 
1) Do you have a personal statement for the VSAS application? And if so how important is it?

I don't know. We don't use VSAS. Maybe someone else who's recently used VSAS can answer this. As for how important it is, I'm assuming not that important because its not really that important in terms of being part of the residency application.

2) Do you still interview people for residency who turn down an away or have to send a polite email explaining a conflict (b/c another program accepted them later, but you don't necessarily now that since the email says date conflicts)?

Yeah. I give people the benefit of the doubt. Its not often that we have a rotation cancellation, but if there is a decent reason, then I have no problem extending an interview.

3) I'm starting my personal statement....or planning to, but it is daunting. I've been told to just keep the personal statement not memorable you are golden. Is this true?

Personal statements are memorable about 10% of the time. 5% because they are unique and great, 5% because they are epicly bad or poorly written. The other 90% say some version of the exact same thing and are forgotten 10 min after you read them. Do not sweat this part of the application. Just make sure it's not filled with poor spelling and poor grammar.

4) If you think you are interested in one fellowship over another, should/can this be the focus of your personal statement? I have an idea of what I want to do, but I don't necessarily want to chose my program based on it because I'm open minded.

I think its reasonable and a good thing to mention future plans/goals. I see many people mention that they want to do academics, or work in a rural community hospital, or potentially pursue a fellowship in EMS/Tox/Critical Care/etc. I think it's more than reasonable to state your long-term goals in the personal statement.
 
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Thank you for taking the time to do this. We all really appreciate it.

For DO applicants planning to apply to ACGME programs what are your thoughts on taking the USMLE Step 1 and/or 2 in addition to COMLEX? Specifically, is there a certain score on the USMLE at which an applicant would be significantly hurt or helped?
 
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Thank you for taking the time to do this. We all really appreciate it.

For DO applicants planning to apply to ACGME programs what are your thoughts on taking the USMLE Step 1 and/or 2 in addition to COMLEX? Specifically, is there a certain score on the USMLE at which an applicant would be significantly hurt or helped?

My personal belief is that no one should be "required" to take two sets of board exams. There are good studies to show a linear correlation between COMLEX and USMLE, and board scores just aren't that critical of the piece of information that you have to delineate between a 225 and a 230, so I think it's perfectly fine to just try to extrapolate a comlex for comparison sake. So we don't require students to take both sets of boards, and I can't see any situation where we ever will.

That being said, I certainly can't speak for every program, and I know you'll get different answers this question depending on which program you ask. I think if you were certainly looking at applying at highly competitive programs and university-based programs, then you definitely should take the USMLE. If you're looking at more community based EM programs, you'll probably be fine with just comlex.

As for what scores to target. In 2016 the average step one score was 233. So I would say any score over to 240 is definitely going to help in programs that put a lot of weight in board scores. 220-240 is extremely good odds for being matchable. 210-220 still had a 90% match rate in 2016. 200-210 match rate for EM was more like 70% or so. Still doable, but now you're running more of a risk of not matching. No one likes to see board failures. So that's the first thing. After that I'd say if you're 200-220, you can still match but you can't be picky and need to apply broadly because thats the range where the scores might hinder you a bit.
 
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What would you recommend is the best way to get into academic EM after residency?

What factors in the most: degree, school prestige, residency prestige/type, etc?
 
I know the average Step one score for EM is 230-240 but what is the sentiment when students have 255+, AOA etc? Do you automatically think backup or do you see enough of such students for it to be fairly normal?

How long would you say it takes the average med student to get up to speed and just know their way around and what is expected of them, especially for those who weren't scribes etc before?

Do you like the adrenaline pumping injuries more, less or the same as the "boring" injuries? Do you think it is important to like both to be an EM physician?
 
Also posted in WAMC, got answers, but didn't want to distract from the purpose of that by continuing a convo about my special case:

Considering a switch to EM (from IM) with 252 step 1 and mix of H/HP/P grades. The problem is I'm 2 mos. off cycle due to a elective step 1 delay (wanted to hit a cut off for upper tier IM programs at the time).

Because of this, I won't be able have any EM exposure until September which is extremely, if not disqualifying, late according to the EM gurus on SDN/Reddit/my school. For this reason, I'm considering taking an extended 10 mo. LOA to get back on cycle, losing a net of one year. This LOA would start after surgery ends in late August and would be used to take Step 2CK in a month and then focus on EM research projects/doing any clinical ED work if I'm allowed to. One of my longtime mentors is actually an EM clinical faculty working at a hospital I did a summer externship with in the area so I'm planning on contacting him as well.

Other paths I could imagine are the following:

1) Similar to the one stated above but apply to only EM/research programs/transitional years (think I saw a few on my school's match list) to bolster my future application while still completing medical school on a normal schedule with my EM SubI in Sep and Step 2 CS in October. A possible benefit would be that by doing this, I'll have a more acceptable route to EM as opposed to having a gap in medical education. The con with this is uprooting myself to an entirely new environment to take the gamble of spending an extra year and end up not matching EM at the end of it which would be terrifying.

2) Biting the bullet and applying this year. This would go against my nature because I don't like to go into things with disadvantages from the get-go and rely on good breaks. I also can not re-organize my schedule to pull my EM subI up because I've already completed my elective (CCU) which is one thing past students who delayed Step had been able to do (and even then it was hard). I also want to do this right and hopefully end up with at a program I'll be happy at, not just any program.

3. I think this option probably gives me the highest chance of matching but would be financially unattractive. I could basically ask my school to give me a 5th year (so no LOA) and basically get EM experience where I could rotate in the EDs for several months as opposed to one depending on what my school's options are. The huge problem with this is obviously tuition but I think this option would look most favorable to PDs who don't like years off. This would probably be the best option if I can't find any 1-year EM research programs that combine research with additional EM rotations/training.
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Edit: not sure if those 1 year EM/research programs exist and even if they do, not sure if they'd be helpful/practical. It sounds like surgery TYs are the way to go?
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Goes without saying but please don't withhold any critical thoughts . I would much rather know now what the major obstacles will be before I make this decision, rather than finding out after I take major steps to accomplish this transition.
 
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Also posted in WAMC, got answers, but didn't want to distract from the purpose of that by continuing a convo about my special case:

Considering a switch to EM (from IM) with 252 step 1 and mix of H/HP/P grades. The problem is I'm 2 mos. off cycle due to a elective step 1 delay (wanted to hit a cut off for upper tier IM programs at the time).

Because of this, I won't be able have any EM exposure until September which is extremely, if not disqualifying, late according to the EM gurus on SDN/Reddit/my school. For this reason, I'm considering taking an extended 10 mo. LOA to get back on cycle, losing a net of one year. This LOA would start after surgery ends in late August and would be used to take Step 2CK in a month and then focus on EM research projects/doing any clinical ED work if I'm allowed to. One of my longtime mentors is actually an EM clinical faculty working at a hospital I did a summer externship with in the area so I'm planning on contacting him as well.

Other paths I could imagine are the following:

1) Similar to the one stated above but apply to only EM/research programs/transitional years (think I saw a few on my school's match list) to bolster my future application while still completing medical school on a normal schedule with my EM SubI in Sep and Step 2 CS in October. A possible benefit would be that by doing this, I'll have a more acceptable route to EM as opposed to having a gap in medical education. The con with this is uprooting myself to an entirely new environment to take the gamble of spending an extra year and end up not matching EM at the end of it which would be terrifying.

2) Biting the bullet and applying this year. This would go against my nature because I don't like to go into things with disadvantages from the get-go and rely on good breaks. I also can not re-organize my schedule to pull my EM subI up because I've already completed my elective (CCU) which is one thing past students who delayed Step had been able to do (and even then it was hard). I also want to do this right and hopefully end up with at a program I'll be happy at, not just any program.

3. I think this option probably gives me the highest chance of matching but would be financially unattractive. I could basically ask my school to give me a 5th year (so no LOA) and basically get EM experience where I could rotate in the EDs for several months as opposed to one depending on what my school's options are. The huge problem with this is obviously tuition but I think this option would look most favorable to PDs who don't like years off. This would probably be the best option if I can't find any 1-year EM research programs that combine research with additional EM rotations/training.
--------
Edit: not sure if those 1 year EM/research programs exist and even if they do, not sure if they'd be helpful/practical. It sounds like surgery TYs are the way to go?
--------

Goes without saying but please don't withhold any critical thoughts . I would much rather know now what the major obstacles will be before I make this decision, rather than finding out after I take major steps to accomplish this transition.
I don't think a 5th year of med school is any less of a potential red flag than a research LOA. What do other people think about this?
 
What would you recommend is the best way to get into academic EM after residency?

What factors in the most: degree, school prestige, residency prestige/type, etc?

Residency prestige matters if you want to get hired to work at a prestigious residency. If you want to work in a community EM residency, it generally won't matter where you go. This is a big time generalization, there are some University based programs out there using locums and community based places that are fully staffed that its hard to get a job at. In general, many residencies hire their own graduates at least to some extent. Much like residency, if you have a very specific place or want to work somewhere prestigious, the bar will be high. If you just want to work in academics in general, its not hard to get into.

Things that help are common sense stuff. ACGME mandates faculty research/publications, and especially out in the community researchers aren't easy to come by. So if you get some research under your belt as a resident (if it interests you) you won't have trouble finding a job. Take on a teaching role with junior residents and students. Being a chief resident is always nice to see.
 
I know the average Step one score for EM is 230-240 but what is the sentiment when students have 255+, AOA etc? Do you automatically think backup or do you see enough of such students for it to be fairly normal?

Nah, I was AOA as a third year and had crazy boards and I went into EM back when it wasn't popular and people looked down at you more. IM attending once told me "what a waste". LOL. When I see someone with outstanding boards, AOA, etc I just assume they are a good candidate, nothing more. There's a field out there for everyone, and thats just not dictated by how you score on a test. So I don't really question a students motivations regarding being a backup honestly. To do EM, trying to schedule 2-3 EM rotations and get 2 SLOEs... that's usually proof enough to me that a student wants to do EM. If I see something in an application like a LOR from another specialty that states the student is planning on doing ortho or something, then I'll bring it up in the interview.

How long would you say it takes the average med student to get up to speed and just know their way around and what is expected of them, especially for those who weren't scribes etc before?

I think it takes at least a week to be honest. Mainly having an idea about how to present patients efficiently. I think people can really do themselves a favor and educate themselves beforehand on some basic EM topics (first page of the thread I listed which complaints to have a good EM ddx for) and watching some videos about presenting in the ED.

Do you like the adrenaline pumping injuries more, less or the same as the "boring" injuries? Do you think it is important to like both to be an EM physician?

Both. I love critical care cases, but I also love the mystery of the undifferentiated patient. There's patients where you have no time to think and you rely on fast thinking and just reacting. Then there are patients that you have to sit down and think about the "mystery" using your slower thinking skills. I think both are very important to being a good EM doc. If you are nothing but an adrenaline junkie, you're going to be sorely disappointed in that most patients you see aren't dying right in front of you. If you like more mundane stuff and are terrified of sick people, you are going to be constantly terrified that something sick is coming in. It goes both ways. I think for people that want to do EM, it's helpful to enjoy both types of cases.
 
Also posted in WAMC, got answers, but didn't want to distract from the purpose of that by continuing a convo about my special case:

Considering a switch to EM (from IM) with 252 step 1 and mix of H/HP/P grades. The problem is I'm 2 mos. off cycle due to a elective step 1 delay (wanted to hit a cut off for upper tier IM programs at the time).

Because of this, I won't be able have any EM exposure until September which is extremely, if not disqualifying, late according to the EM gurus on SDN/Reddit/my school. For this reason, I'm considering taking an extended 10 mo. LOA to get back on cycle, losing a net of one year. This LOA would start after surgery ends in late August and would be used to take Step 2CK in a month and then focus on EM research projects/doing any clinical ED work if I'm allowed to. One of my longtime mentors is actually an EM clinical faculty working at a hospital I did a summer externship with in the area so I'm planning on contacting him as well.

Other paths I could imagine are the following:

1) Similar to the one stated above but apply to only EM/research programs/transitional years (think I saw a few on my school's match list) to bolster my future application while still completing medical school on a normal schedule with my EM SubI in Sep and Step 2 CS in October. A possible benefit would be that by doing this, I'll have a more acceptable route to EM as opposed to having a gap in medical education. The con with this is uprooting myself to an entirely new environment to take the gamble of spending an extra year and end up not matching EM at the end of it which would be terrifying.

2) Biting the bullet and applying this year. This would go against my nature because I don't like to go into things with disadvantages from the get-go and rely on good breaks. I also can not re-organize my schedule to pull my EM subI up because I've already completed my elective (CCU) which is one thing past students who delayed Step had been able to do (and even then it was hard). I also want to do this right and hopefully end up with at a program I'll be happy at, not just any program.

3. I think this option probably gives me the highest chance of matching but would be financially unattractive. I could basically ask my school to give me a 5th year (so no LOA) and basically get EM experience where I could rotate in the EDs for several months as opposed to one depending on what my school's options are. The huge problem with this is obviously tuition but I think this option would look most favorable to PDs who don't like years off. This would probably be the best option if I can't find any 1-year EM research programs that combine research with additional EM rotations/training.
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Edit: not sure if those 1 year EM/research programs exist and even if they do, not sure if they'd be helpful/practical. It sounds like surgery TYs are the way to go?
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Goes without saying but please don't withhold any critical thoughts . I would much rather know now what the major obstacles will be before I make this decision, rather than finding out after I take major steps to accomplish this transition.

I would encourage you to just finish med school. Do what you can to match in EM. You almost certainly still will. You are only 2 months behind. 2 months. To take a year off or do another year of med school because of being 2 mo behind is insanity to me. Worst case scenario, you don't match in EM and you do a transitional year. Still better than doing another year of med school. To me, if I saw a student like you that took a year off or did another year of med school because of something like this, I'd consider it a major red flag. EM is a field about decisiveness.

Get another fall elective. Get a SLOE from the Sept rotation. Apply more broadly than you otherwise would have. Stop caring about prestige. You'll get in somewhere.
 
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Wow. I think gamerEMdoc has done a completely bang up job! I support that- so as someone who has engaged the gambit years ago, and using similar strategies, I think that advice is spot on.
 
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What sort of advice would you give to someone reapplying to EM and how do you view the reapplicant as you are reading through our files? What's something that would stand out to you to decide to ask a reapplicant to interview?

Had more than enough interviews this past cycle but still had to SOAP into a surgery prelim. No red flags, and I'm a socially normal person, lol. I reached out to most programs I interviewed at for feedback, and the handful that got back to me essentially said they were surprised I didn't match, nothing wrong with my app or interview, and a few even said I was ranked competitively, but it was just an even more competitive year. They strongly encouraged me to reapply.

I know it'll be a rough ride next cycle, as it is even more difficult to match the second go-round, but EM is what I want to do, and I would kick myself if I didn't give it at least another try.

Thanks for any input!
 
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I think you did the right thing. If you definitely want to do EM, I think it makes sense to go the prelim route, and try again, as opposed to taking an FP/IM residency, then immediately trying to switch residencies. With the prelim route, your PD knows you are just there for the year, and can actively help you in your quest to persue an EM residency.

I think taking an IM/Surgery prelim year, especially if you can get one at a place with an EM program, is ideal. I personally prefer surgery prelims over IM when it comes to preparing people for an EM residency. But being at a place with an EM residency should take precidence if someone ever finds themselves scrambling.

In terms of how we view reapplicants, we view them just like anyone else. Their application isn't viewed any differently on our end. I can't speak for every program, but we don't place any negatives on being a re-applicant. We did rank highly and matched one of our surgery prelims this year and have matched people who've done prelim years in the past elsewhere.

As for what might come up in the interview, I think invariably you'll get questions about "what happened last year" and "what if anything did you learn from not matching last year" type questions. And I'm sure you'll be asked about your experiences as a prelim. You'll want to get a letter of support from your prelim PD. Otherwise, I think you'll find your interviews to be pretty similar to your interviews the previous year.
 
As for what might come up in the interview, I think invariably you'll get questions about "what happened last year" and "what if anything did you learn from not matching last year" type questions. And I'm sure you'll be asked about your experiences as a prelim. You'll want to get a letter of support from your prelim PD. Otherwise, I think you'll find your interviews to be pretty similar to your interviews the previous year.

To provide a little insight as I just reapplied and matched after a surgery prelim

I found that I was asked at ever single interview day at least once why I didn't match, if not several times. Most of the time it was the typical interview question style, sometimes it was a more person "I am very curious, please tell me your story". Other questions I got were directly tailored to my experiences being a resident and I felt that my answers and convictions were stronger. That all being said, the interviews were more or less the same.
 
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How helpful would an away rotation in November be if I am very interested in that specific program? How late is too late for this type of situation?
 
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How helpful would an away rotation in November be if I am very interested in that specific program? How late is too late for this type of situation?

It's definitely helpful. Its after SLOE season and might not help you elsewhere, but if you are a good student, it will definitely benefit your chances at that individual program.
 
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Personality fit question: I am a new 4th year and only decided to do EM a few months ago. Since then, I've only been able to shadow 2-3 shifts in the ED and this is what I'm basing my life decisions on...No previous ED experience either. I have EM AIs and aways set up for the summer (and a backup residency choice if I end up not liking EM) but my question is: what kind of qualities describe a good EM physician?
I understand its hectic and busy, and sometimes I feel that I will not fit in because I can get overwhelmed when theres too much going on. Is this ability to juggle an acquired skill, or do you find that most interns already have that personality trait?
 
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Personality fit question: I am a new 4th year and only decided to do EM a few months ago. Since then, I've only been able to shadow 2-3 shifts in the ED and this is what I'm basing my life decisions on...No previous ED experience either. I have EM AIs and aways set up for the summer (and a backup residency choice if I end up not liking EM) but my question is: what kind of qualities describe a good EM physician?
I understand its hectic and busy, and sometimes I feel that I will not fit in because I can get overwhelmed when there's too much going on. Is this ability to juggle an acquired skill, or do you find that most interns already have that personality trait?

The ability to juggle a ton of different patient care issues at once is certainly not something most interns start with. It takes years to be able to learn to to more effectively multitask in the ED. If you aren't overwhelmed as a resident at times, then you aren't pushing yourself hard enough. So I wouldn't worry about not being able to juggle a large number of clinical tasks at once as a starting intern. Most interns, if not all, can't do that when they start.

As for qualities that I think help make a good EM physician:

1. Ability to work with a team. Unlike other fields of medicine where the doctors are treated like gods by staff, you are just another member of the team in the ED. Nurses, techs, midlevels, docs... all are working toward a common goal. This team mentality clicks with many people that want to go into EM. But I've seen people who are on the more egotistical side struggle with it at times.
2. Adaptability. You may not be able to juggle a million clinical things when you start, that's not expected. But you have to be someone who can try and think on the fly, and remain flexible. If you always HAVE to be in bed by 10pm or else... you will hate EM.
3. Intrigue vs fear of the unknown. This is perhaps, in my opinion, what attracts many to EM, and is terrifying to those that hate it. So many consultants hate the undifferentiated patient without a firm diagnosis. Once a diagnosis is made, they can go about working it up further, but the patient that presents undifferentiated with no tests... that's what separates us from them. Alternatively, the average EM doc hates the idea of rounding every day on a patient that's already been worked up and figured out. We love the intrigue and the mystery of figuring it all out. Very different mentality than most fields I've found.
4. Sense of humor. Look, we deal with some of the worst segments of society, and see some of the most horrific things many specialties will never see. Having a way to balance the stress of the job by being able to laugh at times with your colleagues and team members really is important.
5. People person. Half of what we do sometimes is talking people down from the ledge, convincing the drug seeker to leave without narcotics, calming the drunk guy down without having to sedate them, getting the hospitalist to admit a weak 90 year old with ambulatory dysfunction but with normal labs, and convincing the mom of the 3 year old with a temp of 99 and a runny nose they don't need abx. You can be the smartest guy/girl in the room, but if you don't relate well to the patients, families, and consultants, you won't be efficient. Being efficient means getting the patients/families/consultants to buy into the plan you set for them.
6. Comfort with procedures. No one expects you as a student to go put in a chest tube. But you need to be comfortable doing simple procedures on people, because you are going to get called to do much more dangerous stuff to people in the future. So its really helpful to know that you like/aren't afraid of doing procedures. If you are terrified just to suture someone as a student, or if you are frozen in fear by the idea of putting in a line or intubating someone as an intern, then its the wrong field for you.
7. Constant life long learner. I think this is true for all fields, but our field encompasses a little bit of every field of medicine so the shear daunting amount of information goes on and on and on...
8. Family/Spouse support. This doesn't apply to the single folks out there. But I can tell you I hear all the time that EM is a "lifestyle" field, and its not true. Shift work has significant physiologic effects on you, and will reek havic with your social life. Sure, you may have a day off, but if you slept until 5pm because you worked the night shift, then you are awake all night because you can't go back to sleep, your "day off" amounts to you being awake at 4am while your whole family sleeps. Dealing with shift work is way, way, way harder many realize, especially as you get older. How I felt doing shift work at age 25 was way different than at age 35. As you get older it just gets harder and harder to do. So those of you with spouses/families have to buy in to your career choice, and understand that this field is a major inconvenience to their lives and most certainly always will be assuming you are working a full time EM job.


I mean, those were the main things I could think of off the top of my head. I'm sure there is plenty more.
 
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Hello gamerEMdoc! I'm a non-US IMG attending a caribbean med school who just took Step 1 and got in the 200-210 range. I've spoken with an advisor at my school who basically said to give up on becoming an ER physician, because I won't match for two reasons: 1. Due to my low STEP 1 score and 2. because I'm not an American. I worked in a level 1 trauma center as a scribe for a year, and I know I want to go into EM. I'm hoping to compensate with doing above average on Step 2 CK, getting great Letters of Recommendation, and excelling in clinical rotations. I just started M3 rotations in NYC

I had a few questions:

Should I just give up on EM, and pursue something else?

Are there any suggestions you have in continuing through rotations?

Is there anything in particular as a non-US IMG that you would recommend for me?

I really appreciate any advice you have.
 
Hello gamerEMdoc! I'm a non-US IMG attending a caribbean med school who just took Step 1 and got in the 200-210 range. I've spoken with an advisor at my school who basically said to give up on becoming an ER physician, because I won't match for two reasons: 1. Due to my low STEP 1 score and 2. because I'm not an American. I worked in a level 1 trauma center as a scribe for a year, and I know I want to go into EM. I'm hoping to compensate with doing above average on Step 2 CK, getting great Letters of Recommendation, and excelling in clinical rotations. I just started M3 rotations in NYC

I had a few questions:

Should I just give up on EM, and pursue something else?

Are there any suggestions you have in continuing through rotations?

Is there anything in particular as a non-US IMG that you would recommend for me?

I really appreciate any advice you have.

While not a PD, I will point to the 2017 match numbers which showed that out of 2047 EM positions, only 20 were filled by non-US IMGs. Of the larger pool of all independent applicants, which includes US IMGs and other groups who have a higher likelihood of matching, 106 matched out of 506 who listed EM as their only choice and 246 who applied to multiple specialties and listed EM as their first choice.

Nobody will tell you that you shouldn't apply at all. That said, nobody will tell you that you have a high likelihood of success. The optimists will tell you that as long as you apply to other specialties as well that you can apply to EM and at least roll the dice. That said, applying to EM requires a commitment of time and resources (multiple rotations in EM, getting SLOEs, etc.) that even in the best circumstances (rocking Step 2CK, getting stellar SLOEs) will still confer a very low likelihood of matching. Being a non-US IMG Caribbean grad with a low Step 1 score, you are at very high risk of not matching into any specialty at all. Maximizing your chances at a less competitive specialty instead of utilizing your limited resources on a Hail Mary into EM may also be in your best interest.
 
Hello gamerEMdoc! I'm a non-US IMG attending a caribbean med school who just took Step 1 and got in the 200-210 range. I've spoken with an advisor at my school who basically said to give up on becoming an ER physician, because I won't match for two reasons: 1. Due to my low STEP 1 score and 2. because I'm not an American. I worked in a level 1 trauma center as a scribe for a year, and I know I want to go into EM. I'm hoping to compensate with doing above average on Step 2 CK, getting great Letters of Recommendation, and excelling in clinical rotations. I just started M3 rotations in NYC

I had a few questions:

Should I just give up on EM, and pursue something else?

Are there any suggestions you have in continuing through rotations?

Is there anything in particular as a non-US IMG that you would recommend for me?

I really appreciate any advice you have.

While not a PD, I will point to the 2017 match numbers which showed that out of 2047 EM positions, only 20 were filled by non-US IMGs. Of the larger pool of all independent applicants, which includes US IMGs and other groups who have a higher likelihood of matching, 106 matched out of 506 who listed EM as their only choice and 246 who applied to multiple specialties and listed EM as their first choice.

Nobody will tell you that you shouldn't apply at all. That said, nobody will tell you that you have a high likelihood of success. The optimists will tell you that as long as you apply to other specialties as well that you can apply to EM and at least roll the dice. That said, applying to EM requires a commitment of time and resources (multiple rotations in EM, getting SLOEs, etc.) that even in the best circumstances (rocking Step 2CK, getting stellar SLOEs) will still confer a very low likelihood of matching. Being a non-US IMG Caribbean grad with a low Step 1 score, you are at very high risk of not matching into any specialty at all. Maximizing your chances at a less competitive specialty instead of utilizing your limited resources on a Hail Mary into EM may also be in your best interest.

I think CliveStaples pretty much sums it up. Unfortunately the odds are not in your favor as a non-US IMG even with stellar scores. You are going to be fighting a major uphill battle and trying to get into EM, and if you put all your resources towards matching in EM you certainly run the risk of not melting in your back up. If you have some stellar them rotation somewhere and they want to rank you, then by all means, I'd still rank the longshot, but I certainly wouldn't go putting all my eggs in the EM basket.
 
How do you think you'll be incorporating the new video interview into your rank list this year?

What is your take on the current system of a July/August/September bottleneck for SLOEs? If you had the freedom to redesign the system, how would you go about it?

I ask the latter questions because as a middle-of-the-road DO applicant I'm feeling the frustrating insecurity of unfilled potential-SLOE rotation slots in the summer because of the backup of everyone applying to eleventybagillion July/August aways, so all my VSAS apps just look like they are eternally "pending host institution review". Its disheartening, because it feels like I'm precluded from pursuing EM before I even have the chance to show I can perform on an audition. Do you think the current setup in EM is a bottleneck by design? Or am I missing the point of it altogether? Is there a better way for the system to function?
 
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How do you think you'll be incorporating the new video interview into your rank list this year?

What is your take on the current system of a July/August/September bottleneck for SLOEs? If you had the freedom to redesign the system, how would you go about it?

I ask the latter questions because as a middle-of-the-road DO applicant I'm feeling the frustrating insecurity of unfilled potential-SLOE rotation slots in the summer because of the backup of everyone applying to eleventybagillion July/August aways, so all my VSAS apps just look like they are eternally "pending host institution review". Its disheartening, because it feels like I'm precluded from pursuing EM before I even have the chance to show I can perform on an audition. Do you think the current setup in EM is a bottleneck by design? Or am I missing the point of it altogether? Is there a better way for the system to function?
I'm having the exact same issue.....I was able to snag a rotation late (Oct/Nov), but otherwise very little luck.
 
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How do you think you'll be incorporating the new video interview into your rank list this year?

What is your take on the current system of a July/August/September bottleneck for SLOEs? If you had the freedom to redesign the system, how would you go about it?

I ask the latter questions because as a middle-of-the-road DO applicant I'm feeling the frustrating insecurity of unfilled potential-SLOE rotation slots in the summer because of the backup of everyone applying to eleventybagillion July/August aways, so all my VSAS apps just look like they are eternally "pending host institution review". Its disheartening, because it feels like I'm precluded from pursuing EM before I even have the chance to show I can perform on an audition. Do you think the current setup in EM is a bottleneck by design? Or am I missing the point of it altogether? Is there a better way for the system to function?

I doubt we would plan on incorporating anything about the video interview this year. It's in a trial phase. I don't know any program is going to put a bunch of weight in something that is completely unproven right now.

I totally agree about sloe season, because it really kills DOs. Allopathic students generally have a home ED rotation. So they can essentially did guaranteed an EM month early on to get their first sloe. Then all they have to do is find a second institution to rotate. It's much harder for most DOs, since they need to essentially secure two away rotations from the start.

One of the other issues is, students do so many rotations. I've met plenty of DO students who do as many as 5 EM months. I don't blame those students, I realize that those rotations get them a foot in the door to interview. But it also creates a problem, in that there is already not enough rotation spots to go around for everyone to begin with.

I don't think there is an easy way to fix the system. Some type of standardized system would be great that matched students into rotations to ensure each student only got 2-3 rotations. But who would even run this, and who would pay for it, and also, it would just create angst of yet another match. VSAS at least is a bit more standardized then a free-for-all, but there's downsides to it in the cost is often passed on to the medical student, and many programs don't use VSAS.

I wish there was an easy answer on rotations, but unfortunately there isn't. And it really is way tougher on DOs to secure two or three good ACGME away rotations.
 
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How do you view applicants who state a desire for fellowship training that invariably takes therm out of the ED? ie, CCM, EMS
 
How do you view applicants who state a desire for fellowship training that invariably takes therm out of the ED? ie, CCM, EMS

I think fellowships are a great thing for the people that are interested in them, but they certainly aren't for everybody. In the end, EM fellowships are not very competitive. Even as a community EM program, one that just switched AOA to ACGME last year, we placed one graduate last year in a critical care fellowship. And we have a resident graduating next year who wants to do an EMS fellowship and is getting recruited by ridiculously big name places, many of which don't even fill their fellowship position every year.

In the end, I support the residents who want to do fellowships, and the residents that dont. I support the residents who want to go into academics, and the ones that we just want to work in the community and never teach. EM has a ton of variety, and in the end I think most program leadership just want their residents to have a happy career after they finish residency. And that means letting them pursue the things that they will find fulfilling in their career, rather than trying to shoehorn people into your own preconceived notion of what makes a good career.
 
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While not a PD, I will point to the 2017 match numbers which showed that out of 2047 EM positions, only 20 were filled by non-US IMGs. Of the larger pool of all independent applicants, which includes US IMGs and other groups who have a higher likelihood of matching, 106 matched out of 506 who listed EM as their only choice and 246 who applied to multiple specialties and listed EM as their first choice.

Nobody will tell you that you shouldn't apply at all. That said, nobody will tell you that you have a high likelihood of success. The optimists will tell you that as long as you apply to other specialties as well that you can apply to EM and at least roll the dice. That said, applying to EM requires a commitment of time and resources (multiple rotations in EM, getting SLOEs, etc.) that even in the best circumstances (rocking Step 2CK, getting stellar SLOEs) will still confer a very low likelihood of matching. Being a non-US IMG Caribbean grad with a low Step 1 score, you are at very high risk of not matching into any specialty at all. Maximizing your chances at a less competitive specialty instead of utilizing your limited resources on a Hail Mary into EM may also be in your best interest.

I think CliveStaples pretty much sums it up. Unfortunately the odds are not in your favor as a non-US IMG even with stellar scores. You are going to be fighting a major uphill battle and trying to get into EM, and if you put all your resources towards matching in EM you certainly run the risk of not melting in your back up. If you have some stellar them rotation somewhere and they want to rank you, then by all means, I'd still rank the longshot, but I certainly wouldn't go putting all my eggs in the EM basket.

Thank you both for your insight. It appreciate your perspectives. I definitely won't be putting all my eggs in one basket, considering the 20/2047 chance... I guess a follow up question is do you have any suggestions for a similar specialization, that would be more attainable?

I've only been exposed to EM, and I think I'm most attracted to it because of the schedule variability, and being able to see a wide range of cases.
 
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