EM Malpractice: Airway Disaster

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Was the initial doc (who placed the King airway) negligent?

  • Yes

    Votes: 5 21.7%
  • No

    Votes: 18 78.3%

  • Total voters
    23

bbc586

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Interesting case about an EM doc and a respiratory arrest gone wrong. Attempted nasal intubation in a hallway bed with no meds, hospital banned docs from using paralytic, finally got a King airway in place. Transferred to another hospital, lawsuit ended up being more about the transfer than the management.

Case 6: Respiratory Arrest – medmalreviewer

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Not by a long shot. Plenty of data shows that ETT is not the end all be all, and if the King was oxygenating and ventilating, it was the appropriate airway.

I'm not a fan of the decadron, but that had no effect on the outcome.
 
Negligent? No. Prepared to manage this critically ill patient? Also no. Nasal intubation without meds, beta blockade peri-arrest, lorazepam boluses as a primary sedation strategy... lolwut.
 
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Two major issues with the initial care of the patient, to me, were attempting a blind nasal intubation in the hallway (seriously, wtf?) and then transferring the patient within a definitive airway. It seems like there was no attempt to replace the King with an ETT here. At the very least I would have extensively documented my reasoning for deferring this. My issue is the doc didn't even try to replace--seemed like they got the king and then decided to move on. (I don't think this should have persisted to attempting a cric or just never transferring a patient)

institutional malpractice for not having paralytics available.

The best part of their case is how it outlined in painful detail how difficult it is to transfer some patients. Part of me was hoping it would be successful in order to prompt places to streamline their processes
 
Made me thankful for our system transfer center and recorded lines...
 
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In the end the lawsuit was dismissed. You could have done everything right and still ended up sued.
 
Do we think ER doc #1 violated EMTALA? Based on transferring doc’s version of events?

I don't. Not the way the transcript reads at least.
Using a recorded lines for stuff like this really takes the guess work out. I'm not sure what was going on with the cardiologist in all this...

Both sides In the actual suit go so far as to even acknowledge that Dr H never refused.
 
Two major issues with the initial care of the patient, to me, were attempting a blind nasal intubation in the hallway (seriously, wtf?) and then transferring the patient within a definitive airway. It seems like there was no attempt to replace the King with an ETT here. At the very least I would have extensively documented my reasoning for deferring this. My issue is the doc didn't even try to replace--seemed like they got the king and then decided to move on. (I don't think this should have persisted to attempting a cric or just never transferring a patient)

institutional malpractice for not having paralytics available.

The best part of their case is how it outlined in painful detail how difficult it is to transfer some patients. Part of me was hoping it would be successful in order to prompt places to streamline their processes
If I failed ETT x3, got a supraglottic that was ventilating, and was transferring from one of my rural centers, I would not likely attempt ETT again and the fact that I already failed three times is clear documentation.
 
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Two major issues with the initial care of the patient, to me, were attempting a blind nasal intubation in the hallway (seriously, wtf?)

Def a situation I'd never want to be in, but the doctor shouldn't be blamed for the patient being in a hallway bed - that's a system failure.
 
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I don't. Not the way the transcript reads at least.
Using a recorded lines for stuff like this really takes the guess work out. I'm not sure what was going on with the cardiologist in all this...

Both sides In the actual suit go so far as to even acknowledge that Dr H never refused.

Yeah that’s why if you really want someone transferred you have to be aggressive. When they suggest another avenue state you strongly feel their facility is most appropriate and ask them point blank if they are refusing the patient. It’s a yes-no question.

“I’m happy to take the patient but...”

“Great! I’m happy to transfer the patient!”
 
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institutional malpractice for not having paralytics available.

Not necessarily. Maybe they didn't have EM-trained docs (FP's, IM, moonlighters) and their intubation success rates were abysmal.

Personally I think one can harm more by having paralytics available without ability to intubate with reasonable success rates.

Hallway nasal intubation is a first. Thankfully I've never seen that attempted in our 160,000 volume ER. Somebody could've been moved out of a room quicker than grabbing a Nasotrol tube.
 
I would hope that an FM doc wouldn't try an awake nasal intubation. Or even know they exist. But hey, good on him for trying?
Although lopressor for CHF might be malpractice.
 
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Weird case but I'm glad everything got dropped. I wouldn't consider anyone negligent. I'm glad I don't work in that hospital though...
 
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Oh never mind I thought you guys meant heart failure in general since every chf pt of mine is on a beta blocker
 
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This is a caution to any Doc who works at these outlying places without extensive EM experience. Bad things happen and you better be prepared/experienced to care for the patient that crashes without any other specialists help.

Pay may be good, 99.9% of the time things will go well. But there will be some days where you need some real EM time under your belt. Best to learn difficult situations where there are experienced EM docs and other specialists around you.
 
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This is a caution to any Doc who works at these outlying places without extensive EM experience. Bad things happen and you better be prepared/experienced to care for the patient that crashes without any other specialists help.

Pay may be good, 99.9% of the time things will go well. But there will be some days where you need some real EM time under your belt. Best to learn difficult situations where there are experienced EM docs and other specialists around you.
Say it again brother
 
This is a caution to any Doc who works at these outlying places without extensive EM experience. Bad things happen and you better be prepared/experienced to care for the patient that crashes without any other specialists help.

Pay may be good, 99.9% of the time things will go well. But there will be some days where you need some real EM time under your belt. Best to learn difficult situations where there are experienced EM docs and other specialists around you.
I agree. But the problem is usually that pay isn't good. Pay usually sucks, which is why they get the assassins and people who can't get credentialed at other places. The kind of people who would attempt to awake nasal intubate overweight CHF patients in the hallway prior to BiPAP or CPAP.
 
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I agree. But the problem is usually that pay isn't good. Pay usually sucks, which is why they get the assassins and people who can't get credentialed at other places. The kind of people who would attempt to awake nasal intubate overweight CHF patients in the hallway prior to BiPAP or CPAP.

Which is why a professional experienced EM PA is 2nd only to an EP in these settings.
 
dude this isn't about you
I'm glad you have a good grasp of the obvious.

The lawsuit brings up several good topics to discuss, one if which is appropriate staffing in remote EDs, which is what my comment was about.
 
Which is why a professional experienced EM PA is 2nd only to an EP in these settings.

How did you come to that conclusion? A professional experienced PA still needs a physician and is not 2nd they complement. If you didn't do a residency or have MD or DO behind your name you are in a different role.
 
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How did you come to that conclusion? A professional experienced PA still needs a physician and is not 2nd they complement. If you didn't do a residency or have MD or DO behind your name you are in a different role.
I think an experienced, professional PA is often a better Emergency Medicine clinician than a FP doc (or other specialty) who doesn't have significant (recent) EM experience.
 
I think an experienced, professional PA is often a better Emergency Medicine clinician than a FP doc (or other specialty) who doesn't have significant (recent) EM experience.

The problem is there is no way to really quantify how much "experience" is sufficient for safe solo practice outside of a structured residency program given that the quality of on the job "experience" can vary widely depending on your practice setting. A PA who sat in fast track or urgent care for 15 years isn't necessarily more qualified to do medicine in a critical access hospital with no backup.

Truthfully, I think rural medicine should be its own training pathway. The needs of a rural community generally call for a physician who can cover the clinic, the hospital and the ER - which in theory would be FM however as it stands most FM training isn't sufficient to be a good EM provider.
 
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I agree. But the problem is usually that pay isn't good. Pay usually sucks, which is why they get the assassins and people who can't get credentialed at other places. The kind of people who would attempt to awake nasal intubate overweight CHF patients in the hallway prior to BiPAP or CPAP.

I always do awake nasal intubation no matter what. Saves on need for s much staff and medication. Just like a foley.

Deep breath, push, and it’s in


What can go wrong???
 
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If I failed ETT x3, got a supraglottic that was ventilating, and was transferring from one of my rural centers, I would not likely attempt ETT again and the fact that I already failed three times is clear documentation.

Caveat: I’m a resident, would love to be corrected if I’m off base here.

While it’s a lot better than nothing, I’m not sure that supraglotic airway was doing much. Admittedly it got her rosc but from skimming the documentation her peak o2 sat was 82% with the king in place. When she arrived after transport her saturation was allegedly reading at 40%. The limited history she gave the rural doc was basically “I don’t have obstructive airway disease, I’ve never smoked, never had asthma or copd.” She then suffered what sounds like hypoxic respiratory failure, apnea and cardiac arrest.

Presumably he was giving lopressor (wtf?) because he thought the patient was in flash pulmonary edema and wanted to reduce afterload (or to make sure there was one less witness to this whole debacle by killing her remaining inotropy).

It seems like having some more effective positive pressure in the system would have been a good idea both for the hypoxia and the need to reduce her preload.

While I agree his 4th attempt to intubate was probably not what was going to save her, calling a flight crew in (who has drugs to rsi, and maybe is a little better at intubating) ASAP might have helped her.

I don’t think the receiving doc committed malpractice.

The combo of blind nasotracheal intubation in hallway, 3xfailed intubation, questionable supraglotic airway placement, and bb this patient seem way closer to malpractice to me, though it seems murky. She certainly did not seem optimally prepared for transport
 
There are multiple documented sats >92% with the king. Of course, no way to know if they are real or not.
CPAP and NTG could have fixed all of this, but oh well.
 
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There are multiple documented sats >92% with the king. Of course, no way to know if they are real or not.
CPAP and NTG could have fixed all of this, but oh well.

Gotcha, that makes more sense then. Wouldn’t try to replace that if seemed effective, especially with zero backup of any sort.
 
2nd warning. Never agree to work in any ER that does not have RSI meds avail. Sorry. Seriously. WTF.

How the F*** am I supposed to control an airway without RSI meds. Let them get hypoxic/hypercapnic where they will not be able to fight me?

My Last shift would be when I ask for RSI meds and am told they can't carry it.
 
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I think an experienced, professional PA is often a better Emergency Medicine clinician than a FP doc (or other specialty) who doesn't have significant (recent) EM experience.

The problem is there is no way to really quantify how much "experience" is sufficient for safe solo practice outside of a structured residency program given that the quality of on the job "experience" can vary widely depending on your practice setting. A PA who sat in fast track or urgent care for 15 years isn't necessarily more qualified to do medicine in a critical access hospital with no backup.

Truthfully, I think rural medicine should be its own training pathway. The needs of a rural community generally call for a physician who can cover the clinic, the hospital and the ER - which in theory would be FM however as it stands most FM training isn't sufficient to be a good EM provider.

Dudes...we've been down this road like 15 times. We all know each and every turn.
 
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Sucks real bad for the first EM doc to be put in that position by the system, but the doc also made some poor decisions. How much this is system induced is unclear since we dont know what equipments/drugs the doc had at his disposal.
Like many of you said, doing blind nasal intubation in the hallway without backup in awake patient is a terrible idea. Giving metoprolol in a pericode patient is also a terrible idea. I also do not support the use of 5mg of midaz, and lorazepam in a patient who is cyanotic. And the cardiologist who told him to contact outpatient cardiologist is ******ed

W regards to the pulse ox, a pulse ox reading of 40 is not reliable. Lot of things could be causing it.
 
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Which is why a professional experienced EM PA is 2nd only to an EP in these settings.
I think an experienced, professional PA is often a better Emergency Medicine clinician than a FP doc (or other specialty) who doesn't have significant (recent) EM experience.

This is a subforum in the physician-resident category.

There are also boarded ED docs who do only glide or ones who work in the VA etc.
And as a PA your job is to see the coughs and colds that shouldn't have even come in. How much exp do you have in airway management??
 
Actually, my job is to practice emergency medicine.

Tubed a malampatti 4, no neck no chin, bloody airway after local EMS placed LMA wasnt ventilating last week. Graduate of Levitans difficult airway course for physicians, and I often practice hundreds of miles away from tertiary care.

And I peruse these boards because I am, indeed, a student of emergency medicine. Any other questions kiddo??
 
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Actually, my job is to practice emergency medicine.

Tubed a malampatti 4, no neck no chin, bloody airway after local EMS placed LMA wasnt ventilating last week. Graduate of Levitans difficult airway course for physicians, and I often practice hundreds of miles away from tertiary care.

And I peruse these boards because I am, indeed, a student of emergency medicine. Any other questions kiddo??
And?? You're still a PA. There are family docs across the country who do difficult intubations on a daily basis. There are very few midlevels doing difficult procedures. Not to mention that doing a procedure is one thing but knowing when to do it and how to manage complications down the road are critical missing parts on the midlevel's end. And then you have the enormous difference in knowledge gaps when it comes to medical management.
How much critical care have you done? How much film have you read? Are you missing anything on EKGs? Do you have solid hands on experience in ob? The list can go on and on. It's easy to think you're competent when you aren't even aware of what you don't know.
 
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And?? You're still a PA. There are family docs across the country who do difficult intubations on a daily basis. There are very few midlevels doing difficult procedures. Not to mention that doing a procedure is one thing but knowing when to do it and how to manage complications down the road are critical missing parts on the midlevel's end. And then you have the enormous difference in knowledge gaps when it comes to medical management.
How much critical care have you done? How much film have you read? Are you missing anything on EKGs? Do you have solid hands on experience in ob? The list can go on and on. It's easy to think you're competent when you aren't even aware of what you don't know.

...says the medical student who doesn't even know if they'll have a job come July.

The reality is neither is really equivalent to a residency trained and board certified EM physician and ultimately, whether you're IM/FM trained, a PA or an NP you're still less than ideal to be practising emergency medicine unsupervised. There really is not a substitute.

With that said, these petty back-and-forths from insecure medical students and midlevels doesn't add anything to the discussion. Please cut the crap or find a new subforum to span.
 
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...says the medical student who doesn't even know if they'll have a job come July.

The reality is neither is really equivalent to a residency trained and board certified EM physician and ultimately, whether you're IM/FM trained, a PA or an NP you're still less than ideal to be practising emergency medicine unsupervised. There really is not a substitute.

Agreed. I wish I had the full education & residency of a BC EP. But on the other hand, there will never be BC EPs working in the areas I mostly work in.
 
...says the medical student who doesn't even know if they'll have a job come July.

The reality is neither is really equivalent to a residency trained and board certified EM physician and ultimately, whether you're IM/FM trained, a PA or an NP you're still less than ideal to be practising emergency medicine unsupervised. There really is not a substitute.

With that said, these petty back-and-forths from insecure medical students and midlevels doesn't add anything to the discussion. Please cut the crap or find a new subforum to span.
The point you're missing is that midlevels shouldn't even be considered for independent ED practice. That was the major counterargument.
And yes, unlike them.. me and virtually 100% of med students are fully aware of our training level appropriate limitations. We don't memorize some algorithms and assume we know everything.
 
We can have the discussion, but keep it professional. People start calling each other names, I'm going to start handing out dings.
 
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There are family docs across the country who do difficult intubations on a daily basis...
Probably not. A truly difficult intubation is not terribly common. To see a truly difficult airway daily you would have to be in a high volume center, doing primarily airway management. Family med docs aren't responsible for airway management in those centers.
 
Probably not. A truly difficult intubation is not terribly common. To see a truly difficult airway daily you would have to be in a high volume center, doing primarily airway management. Family med docs aren't responsible for airway management in those centers.
Huh? I'm saying across the entire nation, difficult airways do happen in places staffed by FMs with no real back up (or any) nearby. What happens when Bob the 300lber with no neck and a huge beard gets severe angioedema and is brought into ruralville ER?

Though of course those places get much fewer airways let alone difficult ones.
 
Huh? I'm saying across the entire nation, difficult airways do happen in places staffed by FMs with no real back up (or any) nearby. What happens when Bob the 300lber with no neck and a huge beard gets severe angioedema and is brought into ruralville ER?

Though of course those places get much fewer airways let alone difficult ones.

I mean that's pretty rare, and truthfully alot of the time Bob doesn't do to well.

Let's be honest - do you really think someone who intubates <10x a year as an attending and got likely <50 tubes as a resident is suddenly gonna be successfully tubing 300lb angioedema patients in the boonies? prob not.
 
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I mean that's pretty rare, and truthfully alot of the time Bob doesn't do to well.

Let's be honest - do you really think someone who intubates <10x a year as an attending and got likely <50 tubes as a resident is suddenly gonna be successfully tubing 300lb angioedema patients in the boonies? prob not.
But it does happen and it's not just limited to that exact scenario obviously lol. Pretty much any crashing patient with difficult anatomy requires skill.

Anyway, I have more tubes than that as a med student and you can get plenty if you're at an unopposed residency. But that's true on the frequency/year.
There are airway courses though which are very worthwhile according to ED docs on this forum.
When I did a rural EM rotation, it was all FM docs who were older and unless all of them (and the nurses) were lying, they had numerous difficult airways over the years and 3 of them had done crics.
 
Thanks for posting. A very interesting case. Makes me happy I don't have to manage airways.

Kind of sad these threads turn into arguments over midlevels and med students.
 
I am EM boarded out of residency x 18 yrs. Worked in Level 1 trauma/crash/take everything, 60K community flagship hospital with every specialty imaginable, Middle of nowhere Ers where they were just difficult to staff. You name it, I have or would be comfortable working there.

I believe I have had 3-5 intubation in my life where gas had to come and help me when I could not get it. I probably would have eventually gotten most but they were available.

I don't think many EM docs sees that many difficult airways in their careers. If they are having trouble regularly intubating someone, it likely has to do with the tuber.

Anyhow..... Carry on with the APC vs FM pillowfight.
 
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