ECC residency: y/n?

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dairyqueen

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Hey fellow DVMs! I'm looking to get some feedback on pursuing ECC residency. It seems like a lot of people recommend against pursuing ECC and instead pursue a job in ER both because of QOL and salary. I'd love to hear from some ECC residents about your choice to pursue residency and/or feedback from some criticalists if we have any here. Is there truly a salary payoff after all the extra training? Is QOL better than working strictly an ER position? I just don't feel that ER / relief is a solid long-term plan for me. Thanks in advance!

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Hey fellow DVMs! I'm looking to get some feedback on pursuing ECC residency. It seems like a lot of people recommend against pursuing ECC and instead pursue a job in ER both because of QOL and salary. I'd love to hear from some ECC residents about your choice to pursue residency and/or feedback from some criticalists if we have any here. Is there truly a salary payoff after all the extra training? Is QOL better than working strictly an ER position? I just don't feel that ER / relief is a solid long-term plan for me. Thanks in advance!
Disclosure: I am currently a full time senior ER clinician at a corporate hospital that also has ECC residencies among other specialty internship/residencies, so I'll give you my take on it all based on my experience at this place. This certainly would not apply to all hospitals.

QOL will vary quite a bit. In my hospital, CC only takes overnight transfers and referrals from primaries from 7a-4p. If the primary didn't call first, it arrives at 4:01p, or they just plain don't want it, it gets dumped on me on ER. They are far better protected from being stuck late or overloaded with cases than we ER doctors are at the same hospital. In one of the sister hospitals, the CC service will leave by 2pm on weekends if they are in a lull, leaving me to receive anything else they would otherwise have taken in addition to all other ER cases. So where I'm at, the grass often seems greener on the other side.

You'd get paid crap as a resident, but can make quite a nice salary in private practice - academia, probably not so much. My DACVECCs earn commission on their own cases in addition to the cases their residents are taking lead on. When you think about it....each hospitalized case that stays for more than 24 hours and actually gets a good workup is going to be $3-5,000, getting higher as patients stay longer or are sicker. A DKA will easily hit 5-7000 by discharge, higher if it stays a really long time. . I'd estimate that our CC service has 10-15 inpatients as a daily average. on top of receiving That is a lotttt of money. I believe our specialists make 20% production on commissionable charges, but we don't have the same contract as ER docs so I don't know the full details, but they are certainly earning more than most ER docs in the area. How much more, or how much less, would depend on whatever your ER contract/pay structure would be. I get straight salary and probably make 1/3-1/2 of the boarded CC's without having an intern and resident on my service to do client comms, paperwork, etc. The highest ER salary I've heard of in my area is 200k with production, and that clinic also has their ER doctors doing surgery (we don't at my clinic..thank jeebus).

TLDR: IMO, the salary of a criticalist can be bomb in private practice. For academia, you could fairly easily look up the salaries of clinicians at public institutions - when I had looked out of curiosity a few years ago, most of the clinicians at my vet school were earning 80-120k/year with no production regardless of specialty. That's kind of salary is almost guaranteed for ER, so in that sense, it may not be super beneficial to specialize. QOL will depend highly on how your clinic functions.

It is also worth mentioning (this is something that I feel strongly about given my current situation) that as an ER doc you will honestly be doing a lot of the same level of medicine as a criticalist/CC resident without the pay. If a referred case gets here at 4:01pm, it's on me, regardless of how near-death it is. I run more codes than the CC service does. I am taking care of CC's patients overnight when they are home sleeping. We don't wait for CC to return in the morning to start treating a DKA. From my point of view, if you can stomach 3 years of $30,000, the extensive reading outside of work, and sitting for boards, I would recommend you strongly consider getting boarded. You'd get better pay for very similar cases/workflow compared to ER. However, that only really applies for private practice. If you dream of academia, it may not be worth it.
 
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Disclosure: I am currently a full time senior ER clinician at a corporate hospital that also has ECC residencies among other specialty internship/residencies, so I'll give you my take on it all based on my experience at this place. This certainly would not apply to all hospitals.

QOL will vary quite a bit. In my hospital, CC only takes overnight transfers and referrals from primaries from 7a-4p. If the primary didn't call first, it arrives at 4:01p, or they just plain don't want it, it gets dumped on me on ER. They are far better protected from being stuck late or overloaded with cases than we ER doctors are at the same hospital. In one of the sister hospitals, the CC service will leave by 2pm on weekends if they are in a lull, leaving me to receive anything else they would otherwise have taken in addition to all other ER cases. So where I'm at, the grass often seems greener on the other side.

You'd get paid crap as a resident, but can make quite a nice salary in private practice - academia, probably not so much. My DACVECCs earn commission on their own cases in addition to the cases their residents are taking lead on. When you think about it....each hospitalized case that stays for more than 24 hours and actually gets a good workup is going to be $3-5,000, getting higher as patients stay longer or are sicker. A DKA will easily hit 5-7000 by discharge, higher if it stays a really long time. . I'd estimate that our CC service has 10-15 inpatients as a daily average. on top of receiving That is a lotttt of money. I believe our specialists make 20% production on commissionable charges, but we don't have the same contract as ER docs so I don't know the full details, but they are certainly earning more than most ER docs in the area. How much more, or how much less, would depend on whatever your ER contract/pay structure would be. I get straight salary and probably make 1/3-1/2 of the boarded CC's without having an intern and resident on my service to do client comms, paperwork, etc. The highest ER salary I've heard of in my area is 200k with production, and that clinic also has their ER doctors doing surgery (we don't at my clinic..thank jeebus).

TLDR: IMO, the salary of a criticalist can be bomb in private practice. For academia, you could fairly easily look up the salaries of clinicians at public institutions - when I had looked out of curiosity a few years ago, most of the clinicians at my vet school were earning 80-120k/year with no production regardless of specialty. That's kind of salary is almost guaranteed for ER, so in that sense, it may not be super beneficial to specialize. QOL will depend highly on how your clinic functions.

It is also worth mentioning (this is something that I feel strongly about given my current situation) that as an ER doc you will honestly be doing a lot of the same level of medicine as a criticalist/CC resident without the pay. If a referred case gets here at 4:01pm, it's on me, regardless of how near-death it is. I run more codes than the CC service does. I am taking care of CC's patients overnight when they are home sleeping. We don't wait for CC to return in the morning to start treating a DKA. From my point of view, if you can stomach 3 years of $30,000, the extensive reading outside of work, and sitting for boards, I would recommend you strongly consider getting boarded. You'd get better pay for very similar cases/workflow compared to ER. However, that only really applies for private practice. If you dream of academia, it may not be worth it.
I'm absolutely fascinated by a clinic that has the criticalists getting production but not the ER docs. What's the justification for that?
 
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Just want to second what @pinkpuppy9 said! My goals at this point (as a 4th year) are to do an ECC residency and from my discussions with clinicians and residents which, keep in mind, asking people who have done a residency about whether or not it's worth doing a residency definitely leads to some bias lol, it seems like criticalists have a better QOL (protected hours). The pay from what I hear is comparable in terms of the years you potentially put in: a 1st year criticalist probably makes the same as someone who has been an ER doc for 4-5 years but I think that heavily depends on the hospital and your contract. My biggest reason for doing a residency is QOL in terms of I won't just be put on swing shifts or overnights forever. From what I understand (and pinkpuppy9 please correct me if I'm wrong) ER docs usually work swing or night shifts for at least quite a few years before they can work day hours and that's not the worst thing in the world but it's not what I want. I want to work that 7a-7p shift 3-4 days a week. The way I see it, you pay dues either way in terms of residency (poor pay, long hours, crazy schedule) or ER doc (long hours, crazy schedule, 5-7 years to get established and get to call the shots with your hospital). If other people have experiences please share them because this is something I debated over the past year but other people probably have great insight on ER stuff :)
Good luck!
 
ER docs usually work swing or night shifts for at least quite a few years before they can work day hours
My hospital has 24/7 ER (1 ER doc/shift, day shift is 8-6, night is 6-8). We have people who are specifically hired for which shift they want. We currently have 2 ER docs that cover Monday through Friday days and us GPs cover Sunday and random holes during the week. Then we currently have 3 night docs with 1 new grad in training for nights. So at least for my hospital, if you are a new grad wanting day ER, you're trained for day ER.
 
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My hospital has 24/7 ER (1 ER doc/shift, day shift is 8-6, night is 6-8). We have people who are specifically hired for which shift they want. We currently have 2 ER docs that cover Monday through Friday days and us GPs cover Sunday and random holes during the week. Then we currently have 3 night docs with 1 new grad in training for nights. So at least for my hospital, if you are a new grad wanting day ER, you're trained for day ER.
Thanks for the insight! Really appreciate the new perspective, didn't know this was out there :)
 
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Thanks for the insight! Really appreciate the new perspective, didn't know this was out there :)
I truly think it's hospital dependent! Especially right now when hospitals need people for essentially every shift. With our night docs, they only work 8-10 days a month. So I think they try to make it appealing to get that covered.
 
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Thanks for the insight! Really appreciate the new perspective, didn't know this was out there :)
My hospital, too. Actually our two most experienced/long term docs are full time night doctors!

Then we've got two others who do swing/overnight mixtures, and two (both newer) docs who do completely day work. And our criticalist who takes care of hospitalized patients and consults, haha.

We actually pointedly don't like to put the newer people on overnight because there's so much less support - in both staff and extra docs around for a second opinion, and you're responsible for everything incoming and in hospital (which can be a lot).
 
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because there's so much less support - in both staff and extra docs around for a second opinion,
I wont even do alone Sundays until after the first of the year. Have 10 more weekday/Saturday ER shifts before they leave me to my own devices.
 
I'm absolutely fascinated by a clinic that has the criticalists getting production but not the ER docs. What's the justification for that?
TBH I have never gotten a straight answer, and I keep asking. It's interesting, as other markets in the same corporation have ER docs on production. It has been insinuated that the concern would be that giving ER production would take away from the specialists' paycheck, as we would be more likely to initiate bigger workups, do send-out labs (we aren't really 'allowed'do anything we can't run in house, we don't do FNA/cytos, we don't do surgeries beyond lac repairs and the occasional enuc, etc.), etc. that we normally have the specialists do. I don't know if that is the only factor, but I bet it plays a role. They do track my production anyways though, so I can see how much I earn them relative to how much I am paid 🥴
My biggest reason for doing a residency is QOL in terms of I won't just be put on swing shifts or overnights forever. From what I understand (and pinkpuppy9 please correct me if I'm wrong) ER docs usually work swing or night shifts for at least quite a few years before they can work day hours and that's not the worst thing in the world but it's not what I want.
Highly depends on what ER clinic you end up at, and what their needs are! When I was looking for a job at the end of my internship (I really only looked at one hospital in MI and the hospital I interned at, same company though), the MI one basically said they had an opening on the night shift and I could take that until something opened up for day. The hospital I interned at rotates shifts every 3 weeks - not necessarily having you flip from day to night each time, but there's variety - and were not going to have me strictly night always. My hospital takes preferences in account too, as some people really love swing/night. I elected to stay with my internship hospital for that reason. Working strictly nights for who knows how long would have harmed my marriage. Not to mention I am one of those people that cannot really function normally as a daywalker on weekends if I'm on nights, so I would have had zero QOL despite being around my family/lifelong friends with that MI hospital.

Right now I am 100% days, and this year has been 50-60% weekends. Any swing/nights I've done were because I picked the shift up - we have open shifts every single day for each shift in all 3 hospitals we work at. This is really the only way we can increase our paycheck, but you could technically work every single day all year and make $1200-1300 per extra shift (which is low compared to some rates I've seen)!
 
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TBH I have never gotten a straight answer, and I keep asking. It's interesting, as other markets in the same corporation have ER docs on production. It has been insinuated that the concern would be that giving ER production would take away from the specialists' paycheck, as we would be more likely to initiate bigger workups, do send-out labs (we aren't really 'allowed'do anything we can't run in house, we don't do FNA/cytos, we don't do surgeries beyond lac repairs and the occasional enuc, etc.), etc. that we normally have the specialists do. I don't know if that is the only factor, but I bet it plays a role. They do track my production anyways though, so I can see how much I earn them relative to how much I am paid 🥴
My immediate reaction to this is "haha **** that" tbh.

As if you guys have so little to do you're going to start spending a bunch of time working up non time-sensitive things. I just very much hope your salary is consistent with what you can see for your production... and not to rock your boat, but with the absolute shortage of ER vets, if you're not happy with your salary I'd just point out that it's a great time to push, haha.

Right now I am 100% days, and this year has been 50-60% weekends. Any swing/nights I've done were because I picked the shift up - we have open shifts every single day for each shift in all 3 hospitals we work at. This is really the only way we can increase our paycheck, but you could technically work every single day all year and make $1200-1300 per extra shift (which is low compared to some rates I've seen)!

Basically it sounds like you're getting paid the same for a relief shift at your (assumed candy-owned, expensive specialty hospital) what I end up making (w/ production) at my small town ER. Where I bet our prices are at least a third cheaper and I knew I was choosing to make less so I could work in the environment I personally wanted. That's something.
 
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My immediate reaction to this is "haha **** that" tbh.

As if you guys have so little to do you're going to start spending a bunch of time working up non time-sensitive things. I just very much hope your salary is consistent with what you can see for your production... and not to rock your boat, but with the absolute shortage of ER vets, if you're not happy with your salary I'd just point out that it's a great time to push, haha.



Basically it sounds like you're getting paid the same for a relief shift at your (assumed candy-owned, expensive specialty hospital) what I end up making (w/ production) at my small town ER. Where I bet our prices are at least a third cheaper and I knew I was choosing to make less so I could work in the environment I personally wanted. That's something.
Yep, definitely candy owned!

I signed a 2 year contract with a pretty unfortunate non-compete (that is effective for two years AFTER I leave) before COVID hit and increased our ER caseload by 1000000000000x. So I'm a bit stuck until next August, but starting to look around. I found out that I get paid about 1/2 of what I could be making at the ER down the road, where the docs get a higher base plus production. I really do like most of the people I work with though, so it's a bit conflicting.

Leaving this company would require me/hubs to move, because I basically can't work at any ER within driving distance of our house. We're thinking about it, also applying to zoo stuff this year so who knows what will happen with that.

I am curious to see what happens with the candy-hospitals in the next several years. I'm currently in Tampa which is home-base for the company, so I don't know about any other markets. I've only been here for 2.5 years now, but my company has essentially had a monopoly on specialty/ER care in the area for a loooong time. Two privately owned ERs just popped up, VEG is growing, and there are a few urgent care-type chains coming into the area. We haven't seen a dip in caseload, but I do send a lot of clients to other ERs for continued care since we are by far the most expensive place in town. Some of my specialists are getting worried about how much our prices are increasing relative to how many patients we end up referring elsewhere or back to the primary clinic.

At the same time, every ER/urgent care in the area refers to us for the really sick stuff, so I guess it goes both ways.
 
Some of my specialists are getting worried about how much our prices are increasing relative to how many patients we end up referring elsewhere or back to the primary clinic
This is starting to happen at my hospital, though for the more extensive diagnostics that GPs/ER docs do. Our abdominal ultrasounds are now the same price as a local traveling radiologist and we're not comfortable with that. Meanwhile, 1 VEG has opened and another is opening soon. They pay everyone better from reception to doctor, so there's low key concern of further staff loss (we've lost 2 long term techs and 4 docs in the last year and new hires stay a week).

Depending on what the relief overnight doc reports back when she starts at VEG, I might abandon ship too. Who knows.
 
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This is starting to happen at my hospital, though for the more extensive diagnostics that GPs/ER docs do. Our abdominal ultrasounds are now the same price as a local traveling radiologist and we're not comfortable with that. Meanwhile, 1 VEG has opened and another is opening soon. They pay everyone better from reception to doctor, so there's low key concern of further staff loss (we've lost 2 long term techs and 4 docs in the last year and new hires stay a week).

Depending on what the relief overnight doc reports back when she starts at VEG, I might abandon ship too. Who knows.
We have lost a handful of our most experienced techs to VEG, no docs yet. We have lost one doc to a privately owned ER down the road from one location, another to UrgentVet.

In terms of pricing, VEG cheaper than us, but not significantly. Usually when I am recommending a $6-8,000 ex-lap, VEG is going to be more like 4-6/5-7. I guess in literal terms that is a lot of money, but we have boarded surgeons whereas VEG doesn't. For the most part, no clinic in my area is able to help the people that have $500 for a surgical case unless they have a pDVM willing, who is also open.

I mean, we charge $3-4,000 for a cystotomy, emergent or not. Most clients are more than happy to have me pass a catheter/do a decompressive cysto to by them time so they can get to their primary the next day, who's probably going to do it for under $1500. There are some things we just charge too damn much for.

VEG is recruiting aggressively right now nationwide. The better pay sounds good, I honestly don't know too much about their overall culture. I have heard that at least one tech that has left us for them was not impressed, and that a lot of their claims/recruiting efforts are smoke and mirrors, but who knows. I don't know firsthand. I just think it's crazy that they have clinics witness everything, all the way to their pet's surgery. No thanks!
 
I've heard good things, but from veterinary student externs in the years below me. But nothing from an actual doctor yet. A friend of our relief overnight says there's a definite difference between the VEGs built from the ground up (much better) vs ones bought and then retrofitted (don't transition well). Seems hit or miss for sure.
 
Yep, definitely candy owned!

I signed a 2 year contract with a pretty unfortunate non-compete (that is effective for two years AFTER I leave) before COVID hit and increased our ER caseload by 1000000000000x. So I'm a bit stuck until next August, but starting to look around. I found out that I get paid about 1/2 of what I could be making at the ER down the road, where the docs get a higher base plus production. I really do like most of the people I work with though, so it's a bit conflicting.

Leaving this company would require me/hubs to move, because I basically can't work at any ER within driving distance of our house. We're thinking about it, also applying to zoo stuff this year so who knows what will happen with that.

I am curious to see what happens with the candy-hospitals in the next several years. I'm currently in Tampa which is home-base for the company, so I don't know about any other markets. I've only been here for 2.5 years now, but my company has essentially had a monopoly on specialty/ER care in the area for a loooong time. Two privately owned ERs just popped up, VEG is growing, and there are a few urgent care-type chains coming into the area. We haven't seen a dip in caseload, but I do send a lot of clients to other ERs for continued care since we are by far the most expensive place in town. Some of my specialists are getting worried about how much our prices are increasing relative to how many patients we end up referring elsewhere or back to the primary clinic.

At the same time, every ER/urgent care in the area refers to us for the really sick stuff, so I guess it goes both ways.
Ugh that non compete is horrible. Mine is actually quite big/long, too, but because of my clinic's location there's literally no specialty or emergency clinics within the boundaries - it basically just stops me from opening one, or working for any newly opened ones in closer proximity. I'd say look into the legality, but I imagine candy people are going to have a lot more money to fight something like that than you. Lame.

And it's one of those things where more money doesn't always mean more happiness, but man when things change as ridiculously as they have over the past two years and the pay doesn't... I'd be super annoyed, ha.

Fingers crossed some zoo stuff works out! I know that was your goal before. :D
 
Another ER doc here. I debated a residency and I think it depends on your goals. If you love managing an ICU, overseeing other doctors and having more input on practices/protocols then going forward with a residency makes sense. If your primary love of ecc is the initial figuring it out piece of receiving or surgery then potentially a ER doc position is a better fit. As far as schedule I think it is very hospital dependent— we have day (icu or receiving) , swing ( receiving), and overnight shifts ( icu and receiving)at our main hospital and just day and overnight at satellite — where you are responsible for both the inpatients and incoming cases. All our doctors rotate through the shifts in month blocks slanted toward their preference. Ie I like nights so work more nights, some prefer swing etc. Salary wise you do eventually make more as a criticalist but have to basically make scratch for three years. Also keep in mind that finishing and passing boards is not guaranteed.

Feel free to PM if you want more info.
 
Hey fellow DVMs! I'm looking to get some feedback on pursuing ECC residency. It seems like a lot of people recommend against pursuing ECC and instead pursue a job in ER both because of QOL and salary. I'd love to hear from some ECC residents about your choice to pursue residency and/or feedback from some criticalists if we have any here. Is there truly a salary payoff after all the extra training? Is QOL better than working strictly an ER position? I just don't feel that ER / relief is a solid long-term plan for me. Thanks in advance!
I’m in a similar boat as well. I talked with my dacvecc mentor about some of these concerns- QOL, salary, being put in a specific corner. She reminded me that the demand of dacvecc’s is very high kind of nationwide (there’s high demand for ER docs true, but just about every speciality hospital is advertising for criticalists) so in terms of negation power, a residency really does improve that side of things and you can kind of carve out what you want to do.

So there are dacveccs at my hospital who do ER surgery because they like it and they’re good at it, and this way they don’t have to call in a surgeon who already has a full day scheduled for the following day. She told me there are dacveccs who do primarily ER, some who do ICU only, and some who do a combination of everything. So that’s another reason I’m going forward with residency, the ability of choice
 
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Hey everyone, is there a positive in jumping in straight into an ECC specialty internship straight out of school rather than doing a SA rotating internship? The goal is ECC residency, and the opportunity to do an ECC internship straight out of school has presented itself. I'm leaning towards it because I'm not really into some of the other specialties (like onco or ophtho), and am just in love with internal med and ECC. Would it be doing me a disadvantage when applying to residencies to not have a rotating internship? Or would it be a leg up having done a specialty internship?
 
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Totally forgot I posted this, thank you all SO much for your answers! This is so helpful. I've applied for the match but who knows what will happen from here! :clap:
 
The decision of doing an ECC residency or not to do one is looming in my head as I'm gearing up for an internship year. I understand how ER docs are paid, simply because you make production off of diagnostics you do, but how does a criticalist make their production if they are just managing inpatients all day? At school, most inpatients will remain on fluids and get an occasional cbc/chem, but I would think that doesn't compare to the production an ER doc would make. Anyone have any insight on that?
 
Hospitalization charges (especially at high level intensive inpatient monitoring fees), inpatient treatments, procedures (tubes, ventilation, dialysis, etc.), and repeat labs add up. Plus consult fees, etc. Its not uncommon for hospitalization charges alone to be $1,000+ per inpatient per day even for “minor” illness (and by that I mean the dog is sick, yes, but not like criticalist-required level sick). But tagging @cdo96 for additional insight.
 
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The decision of doing an ECC residency or not to do one is looming in my head as I'm gearing up for an internship year. I understand how ER docs are paid, simply because you make production off of diagnostics you do, but how does a criticalist make their production if they are just managing inpatients all day? At school, most inpatients will remain on fluids and get an occasional cbc/chem, but I would think that doesn't compare to the production an ER doc would make. Anyone have any insight on that?
Hospitalization charges (especially at high level intensive inpatient monitoring fees), inpatient treatments, procedures (tubes, ventilation, dialysis, etc.), and repeat labs add up. Plus consult fees, etc. Its not uncommon for hospitalization charges alone to be $1,000+ per inpatient per day even for “minor” illness (and by that I mean the dog is sick, yes, but not like criticalist-required level sick). But tagging @cdo96 for additional insight.
Hi yes, this is all accurate. So criticalists are one of the lower paid specialities for this reason. Jayna’s absolutely right, the costs add up for sure. While we (being criticalists, not just baby just manage in-patients, there’s hospitalization fees involved that can be profound. Plus if they’re sick enough to need a criticalist, they’re usually stacking up other fees (heat support per hour, oxygen per shift/ high flow nasal O2 per hour, etc). Other things that some criticalists do is ultrasound, surgery, endoscopy (FB retrieval). It all depends on your comfort/ expertise level, but can adds to your skill set and production.

The simple fact is, nowadays you can realistically make more as an ER doc. But there’s a ton that residency teaches you about it all. I’ve definitely thought about working as an ER doc after residency if I decide I don’t want to stay in CC, but I know regardless I’m going to be well trained in both
 
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