Duke vs UTSW - URGENT pls help!

[lostinthesauce12]

Hii my situation is like this: I was recently accepted off the waitlist for DukeMed, before which I had initially planned to attend UTSW as an OOS student. My boyfriend is a current MS2 at UTSW, and we've been dating for about 3 years (1 in-person, 2 long-distance). I'm currently debating where I should go for medical school because I feel like I'm basically choosing between my relationship and my career(?)

Duke
Pros

• Higher ranking so might be better for competitive specialties (I'm interested in derm)
• True P/F grading for preclinicals (no AOA)
• P/F grading for clinical (although I heard that residency programs can still see comments from clinicals)
• Dedicated three years of research so good for competitive specialties
• Big college campus vibes (e.g lots of facilities, a nice gym, etc.)
• Students in each graduating year all seemed really close (smaller class size)

Cons

• Basically no true connections to the area
• Heard that Durham is very college-town (would prefer a more "real" city environment)
• Durham is not super diverse?
• Test every other Monday during MS1 = stress (although it is P/F)
• Would have to do long distance with my bf for a VERY long time (assuming we don't attend the same residency program)

UTSW
Pros

• I'll be with my boyfriend for at least 2 years, which is a huge emotional support (don't have other family otherwise)
• Already familiar with the area and know people at the school
• Strong matching back into the home program (would be nice to match back into UTSW for dermatology)
• Dallas is a pretty nice city
• Everything is TX is hella cheap so I'm saving that $$$

Cons

• Independent medical center so there aren't as many facilities for students (e.g worse gym, library, etc.)
• P/F preclinicals but grades matter for AOA
• Graded clinicals (honors system)
• My boyfriend might match somewhere else in two years in which we would have to do long-distance again (he is trying to match optho)

Comparing the med school curriculums, I definitely prefer Duke but I realize that if I attend Duke it'll be challenging for my relationship to continue since my bf and I cannot couple match and UTSW & Duke are located very far apart. With no guarantee that we'll end up in the same place for residency + med school is busy = it'll be even harder to continue long-distance as we are currently doing.

If I attend UTSW, it'll be easier for both of us to match back into UTSW. However, I'm afraid that I'm being naively optimistic by underestimating the difficulty of matching back into UTSW if I attend UTSW (ideally we would both stay at UTSW for residency and not have to do long-distance again).

I tentatively decided to go to UTSW (haven't officially committed yet), but now I'm afraid that I might regret it in the future (I was looking through DukeMed's Instagram accounts and thinking about what could have been). That said, I also really don't wanna give up my relationship either because I see a future (e.g marriage) with my bf. Regardless, please let me know what you think!

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[chilly_md]

Is UTSW’s overall COA cheaper for you? OOS tuition is lower than most school’s regular tuition and they often give them IS tuition actually through a scholarship if I remember right.

I don’t think deciding to go there is hindering your career. It is a renowned school.

 

[lostinthesauce12]

Is UTSW’s overall COA cheaper for you? OOS tuition is lower than most school’s regular tuition and they often give them IS tuition actually through a scholarship if I remember right.

I don’t think deciding to go there is hindering your career. It is a renowned school.

Haha actually Duke is slightly cheaper by a couple thousands just because they gave me a scholarship that matches UTSW's in-state tuition price! I think UTSW is still an amazing school - I'm just scared with STEP 1 becoming P/F that the difference between the schools might help with me matching into something really competitive like derm

 

[chilly_md]

Haha actually Duke is slightly cheaper by a couple thousands just because they gave me a scholarship that matches UTSW's in-state tuition price! I think UTSW is still an amazing school - I'm just scared with STEP 1 becoming P/F that the difference between the schools might help with me matching into something really competitive like derm

That's pretty nice then. I think you'll be much more likely to match into Texas from UTSW. Especially if you weren't a TX resident before (maybe you grew up there and moved or attended a Texas undergrad though). I see them as both prominent institutions, and I don't think attending Duke would be the difference maker in whether you match into a competitive specialty. They vary based on student interest from year to year, but for whatever it's worth, Duke had 4 derm matches while UTSW had 8 (4 of them within TX). Duke has a smaller class size but seems like the rate is about the same.

 

[LoveCoffee]

I would choose the career, but I'm very lucky to have a boyfriend who isn't in medicine and is able to follow me, so take my opinion with a grain of salt. I do, however, deeply understand how important having that person there can be though. That being said, I know some med students who have made long-distance work for similar reasons and it sounds like the two of you have been making it work for you too. There's facetime, visits, and you're going to be so busy with your classwork that the time will fly by. If the relationship is meant to be, it will be and you have many years ahead to enjoy time with the boyfriend. However, if you make this choice based off a relationship and then it doesnt work out, you'll always regret not making the career choice. Duke is a really special program and if you feel good fit there, I don't think you should give that up. Good luck in your decision! If you think having your boyfriend with you as a support system and that could help you succeed more at UTSW then I could totally see that being a great reason to choose that program, UTSW is still great so you can't go wrong. But I think you should choose what the best thing is for you and trust your boyfriend and relationship to be OK.

Edit: A lot of subsequent comments have pointed out pros of UTSW. My point about career vs relationship was based on OPs post RE thinking Duke would be better for their career. If UTSW is equal or better for OP's career goals then I would urge them to go with that, my main point though was not to put the relationship above the medical education and future opportunities. When I said if it's meant to be it will be, I mean if the relationship means that much, you will both put in the work to make distance work for you in the short term and you will get back to one another in the long term, I didn't mean you can ignore the relationship and have it pan out like mangowolf implied. But like wysdoc, I am wary of making decisions for relationship that might or might not last - I heard a story about a guy (friend of my mom) who picked a T50 over a T5 for his girl and then found out she had been cheating on him a week later, he got lucky and he found out so soon that the T5 took him back but that story always pops up in my head when I hear about people making big choices based on relationships. Again, good luck to OP and whatever decision you make I know it will all work out.

 

[wysdoc]

I'm going to agree with @LoveCoffee about this in most respects.

How deep are the talks you and your boyfriend have had about this? Which part of your relationship has been in-person (the 3 years ago part, or the most recent 1 year part?)
What if you found out he has been seeing someone else the whole 2 years you were long-distance but you had picked your school to be in his school? Awkward to the 3rd power and miserable.
Couples matches are only really a thing when you're both applying at the same time, and he's two years ahead of you. Would needing to match in his city limit your options?

Time for some serious conversations, but before that, serious soul-searching about what YOU want.

 

[lostinthesauce12]

I would choose the career, but I'm very lucky to have a boyfriend who isn't in medicine and is able to follow me, so take my opinion with a grain of salt. I do, however, deeply understand how important having that person there can be though. That being said, I know some med students who have made long-distance work for similar reasons and it sounds like the two of you have been making it work for you too. There's facetime, visits, and you're going to be so busy with your classwork that the time will fly by. If the relationship is meant to be, it will be and you have many years ahead to enjoy time with the boyfriend. However, if you make this choice based off a relationship and then it doesnt work out, you'll always regret not making the career choice. Duke is a really special program and if you feel good fit there, I don't think you should give that up. Good luck in your decision! If you think having your boyfriend with you as a support system and that could help you succeed more at UTSW then I could totally see that being a great reason to choose that program, UTSW is still great so you can't go wrong. But I think you should choose what the best thing is for you and trust your boyfriend and relationship to be OK.

Hi thanks so much for sharing your thoughts - I really appreciate it! I think I'm just afraid of chasing my career to the point where I give up the other things I value in life. However, I do really like the Duke curriculum, especially since it seems a lot more chill than UTSW's curriculum, so I'm just stuck. I'll definitely give it more thought, and I appreciate your words of wisdom nonetheless!

 

[lostinthesauce12]

I'm going to agree with @LoveCoffee about this in most respects.

How deep are the talks you and your boyfriend have had about this? Which part of your relationship has been in-person (the 3 years ago part, or the most recent 1 year part?)
What if you found out he has been seeing someone else the whole 2 years you were long-distance but you had picked your school to be in his school? Awkward to the 3rd power and miserable.
Couples matches are only really a thing when you're both applying at the same time, and he's two years ahead of you. Would needing to match in his city limit your options?

Time for some serious conversations, but before that, serious soul-searching about what YOU want.

Hiii thank you for responding to my thread - I really do appreciate it!

My bf and I talked a lot about this, and he definitely understands what I'd be giving up to be there with him. I do honestly trust my bf 100% so I hope he hasn't been seeing someone else too haha, as we've discussed marriage and what we'd want in the future.

I think my main concern is residency. We agreed that if I go to UTSW he would do his utmost best to remain at UTSW for residency for optho (e.g ranking it as his number 1 pick). While I have full confidence in him and his abilities, I know that optho is very competitive and matching is not guaranteed by any means, especially matching to a specific program. Ideally, we'd both stay at UTSW for residency but I know the chances of that happening are still slim.

I guess what's making me hesitate about this choice is that if I were to attend Duke, the likelihood that we'd end up in the same residency program would be even smaller. At that point, it would be nearly 10 years of long-distance, which doesn't seem desirable at all. I guess I'm just truly understanding how difficult relationships are in medicine, especially when both parties are both in medicine 😭

 

[voxveritatisetlucis]

UTSW is a good school. you can match derm from there. Duke may be slightly easier but you’ll have to work hard from both to match derm since it’s tough to match from anywhere. If I recall correctly, most people take research years now for derm, even from top schools.
However, overall, I’m never one for making decisions based on a bf/gf (based on past experience). Wife or fiancé, then maybe, but statistically speaking, most relationships end. One shouldn’t make career decisions based on something that may end anyway. Even if you do stay together (at utsw), it could cause resentment if you don’t match derm.

 

[mangowolf]

It kind of depends how in love you are with Duke, and it doesn't really seem like you love it - more like a sense of FOMO /wanting to make a decision based on what most other premeds make their decision by (i.e. high ranking) and also because of the P/F clinicals, which is definitely a consideration. but, i do have thoughts:

- the ranking difference between Duke and UTSW is really not that big. ik some people think it's a T5 because of the US whatever ranking but in all honesty the two are easily comparable, and no adcom is going to think "wow Duke is so much better than UTSW." if we were talking say, Hopkins and UTSW i would say there might be an edge, but even then it's not an *overwhelming* difference
- if you want derm you will have to work your ass off no matter where you go. you are more likely to match derm from UTSW performing well than if you were at Duke and performing slightly less well. the question has to be: which school do i think will set me up best for success? is it Duke where I have a smaller class size, P/F and a cool campus vibe, or is it UTSW where my boyfriend will be close by?
- you are serious about this relationship so I assume if you choose Duke you will continue to find ways to make long distance work. yes, long distance can work but it is HARD and it will be even harder when you are both in medical school with lives that don't align, time zone differences, clinical rotation schedules that come in last minute so it's impossible to plan trips, etc...don't forget the $$ of plane tickets to them. Also, don't underestimate how much of your life and friendships that you miss out on when you're flying to see a boyfriend over the weekend. you miss out on social events, bonding with classmates, etc. which also will impact your well-being and ability to do well at Duke. from my experience, LDRs can make both parties become a bit isolated from the worlds they're currently in, because half of their mind is in another state.
- it's easy enough for people to say "oh if it's meant to be, it will work out anyways with a boyfriend so just choose the career. if it doesn't work out then it wasn't meant to be." sorry but that's bull****, relationships are not mystical bonds that are either doomed to fail or blessed to survive. a relationship is WORK; love is WORK, and you can't just kick your relationship to the side and hope that it will work out, and then justify it not working out after the fact because you did not prioritize it. maybe the relationship WAS "meant to be," but you didn't nurture it enough and therefore lost it. people who say "never prioritize your partner over your career" are also the people who do not realize that love and relationships take an extraordinary amount of sacrifice. if you continually ONLY prioritize your career, prestige, and academic success, that is a recipe for loneliness. that being said, there are ways to go to Duke and still keep your relationship...but it will take an enormous amount of work. in fact, you could think of the choice this way: you can either make an up-front sacrifice (i.e. go to UTSW, turn down higher ranked school) to make the relationship easier later on, or choose to make sacrifices as you go (go to Duke but then have to spend money, lose time with friends to visit him, etc).
- people say you may regret it if you choose UTSW but break up with your boyfriend -- this is true. but regret goes both ways. would you regret it if you went to Duke, had a slightly more prestigious but similar experience than you would have at UTSW, and ended up breaking up with your boyfriend due to distance -- you would look back with regret and always wonder, what if I nurtured my relationship more? what if i made more sacrifices for the people i love? would i be less lonely and isolated as I feel right now? would i have had a life and a family with him? at the end of the day, only you know how what this relationship is. strangers on the internet are more likely than not going to tell you to ignore your boyfriend and partner because you don't have a ring on your finger yet. but marriages and engagements end, too. tons of people get divorced all the time. does that mean when you're married, you don't make any sacrifices for your spouse, because "hey we are likely to get divorced anyways?" Relationships don't just need work, they also need a little bit of blind-eyed optimism and faith.
- can you make this decision without resenting your partner? are you at a place and are you ready to make choices for someone you love knowing the uncertainties that come with this decision? would three years with your boyfriend be worth turning down Duke, even if you don't end up at the same place for residency?

sorry, i know this is just a lot of questions and "what-ifs," but I hope some of this thought process is helpful. I really feel for you and know this is a difficult decision to make, and at times it almost feels like an identity crisis / coming of age crisis (Am I the type of person who chooses love or prestige? Happiness or achievement? Am I old enough to even choose a relationship over a career? etc.) I want to assure you that whether you go to Duke or UTSW your career will be incredible and you WILL be an incredible doctor, it just may take slightly more work to get to a certain residency or specialty at UTSW. and conversely, if you really love your boyfriend and are committed, your relationship will be ok, but it will take a lot more money, sacrifice, and work to make it happen if you go to Duke. you just have to decide which sacrifice you want to make.

 

[wetconcrete]

Agreed with many of the points mangowolf made above. I also think it's worth noting that while Duke's med school has a higher overall USNWR ranking, UTSW's hospital actually is much better regarded in dermatology (Doximity residency ranking in derm is generally top 10 compared to Duke at ~45). This would translate to the quality of research and the strength of letters you would be able to get in derm research.

 

[KendallJennerSniperLady69]

I don't have much to add, but I would HIGHLY encourage you to PHYSICALLY visit both schools and see where you would picture yourself happiest. Do NOT rush your decision. Stick to the things you find more concrete rather than "vibes" or "feels".

I was deciding between multiple T20 schools last year, and got off the waitlist at one school that I am now attending. I got really fatigued with my original commit to enroll decision, that I spent less effort looking into the waitlist school. Essentially, I didn't visit the school and talk to as many people (things I did for the other schools I previously researched for CTE) as I should have simply because I was tired.

I was told by multiple people on this forum that "you can't go wrong" w/ any of the schools since they were all T20s, and there also seems to be a big emphasis on following "vibes" on this forum, which I find is complete bull**** since schools have been affected by COVID these past 2-3 years and because the "vibe" depends heavily on the class you enter with, which can change drastically from year to year. I got really good vibes from the school I'm now attending, but now that I'm almost done with MS1, I can tell you that I have felt varying levels of regret over my decision almost every week that I've been here.

Hindsight is 20/20, but I think that if I have taken the time to visit the school, I would have ended up somewhere different.

If you need more time to decide, please email the schools. I was too afraid of being pushy and didn't want to fight the 5(?) day deadline the waitlist school gave me when I really should have in order to get a better sense of things.

 

[mangowolf]

I don't have much to add, but I would HIGHLY encourage you to PHYSICALLY visit both schools and see where you would picture yourself happiest. Do NOT rush your decision. Stick to the things you find more concrete rather than "vibes" or "feels".

I was deciding between multiple T20 schools last year, and got off the waitlist at one school that I am now attending. I got really fatigued with my original commit to enroll decision, that I spent less effort looking into the waitlist school. Essentially, I didn't visit the school and talk to as many people (things I did for the other schools I previously researched for CTE) as I should have simply because I was tired.

I was told by multiple people on this forum that "you can't go wrong" w/ any of the schools since they were all T20s, and there also seems to be a big emphasis on following "vibes" on this forum, which I find is complete bull**** since schools have been affected by COVID these past 2-3 years and because the "vibe" depends heavily on the class you enter with, which can change drastically from year to year. I got really good vibes from the school I'm now attending, but now that I'm almost done with MS1, I can tell you that I have felt varying levels of regret over my decision almost every week that I've been here.

Hindsight is 20/20, but I think that if I have taken the time to visit the school, I would have ended up somewhere different.

If you need more time to decide, please email the schools. I was too afraid of being pushy and didn't want to fight the 5(?) day deadline the waitlist school gave me when I really should have in order to get a better sense of things.

this is a really interesting perspective, could be helpful if you were willing to share what points made you choose your current school and what things you regretted not looking into before - like did you choose your current school mainly based on prestige, did you not evaluate curriculum/mentorship closely enough, etc...

edit: just wondering, what does physically visiting a school do for you? like how does being able to picture yourself being happy at a certain geographic place differ from the ~vibes~ of the school, beyond feelings of not wanting to be in a certain rural area, hating a big city, etc.

 

[srirachamayonnaise]

Duke is a solid t10, but UTSW is a solid no.1 in Texas. Given how in-state favorable TX is, I would go with UTSW if your goal is match there. Home program advantage is REAL.

 

[srirachamayonnaise]

I don't have much to add, but I would HIGHLY encourage you to PHYSICALLY visit both schools and see where you would picture yourself happiest. Do NOT rush your decision. Stick to the things you find more concrete rather than "vibes" or "feels".

I was deciding between multiple T20 schools last year, and got off the waitlist at one school that I am now attending. I got really fatigued with my original commit to enroll decision, that I spent less effort looking into the waitlist school. Essentially, I didn't visit the school and talk to as many people (things I did for the other schools I previously researched for CTE) as I should have simply because I was tired.

I was told by multiple people on this forum that "you can't go wrong" w/ any of the schools since they were all T20s, and there also seems to be a big emphasis on following "vibes" on this forum, which I find is complete bull**** since schools have been affected by COVID these past 2-3 years and because the "vibe" depends heavily on the class you enter with, which can change drastically from year to year. I got really good vibes from the school I'm now attending, but now that I'm almost done with MS1, I can tell you that I have felt varying levels of regret over my decision almost every week that I've been here.

Hindsight is 20/20, but I think that if I have taken the time to visit the school, I would have ended up somewhere different.

If you need more time to decide, please email the schools. I was too afraid of being pushy and didn't want to fight the 5(?) day deadline the waitlist school gave me when I really should have in order to get a better sense of things.

Vibe is total BS.

 

[lostinthesauce12]

It kind of depends how in love you are with Duke, and it doesn't really seem like you love it - more like a sense of FOMO /wanting to make a decision based on what most other premeds make their decision by (i.e. high ranking) and also because of the P/F clinicals, which is definitely a consideration. but, i do have thoughts:

- the ranking difference between Duke and UTSW is really not that big. ik some people think it's a T5 because of the US whatever ranking but in all honesty the two are easily comparable, and no adcom is going to think "wow Duke is so much better than UTSW." if we were talking say, Hopkins and UTSW i would say there might be an edge, but even then it's not an *overwhelming* difference
- if you want derm you will have to work your ass off no matter where you go. you are more likely to match derm from UTSW performing well than if you were at Duke and performing slightly less well. the question has to be: which school do i think will set me up best for success? is it Duke where I have a smaller class size, P/F and a cool campus vibe, or is it UTSW where my boyfriend will be close by?
- you are serious about this relationship so I assume if you choose Duke you will continue to find ways to make long distance work. yes, long distance can work but it is HARD and it will be even harder when you are both in medical school with lives that don't align, time zone differences, clinical rotation schedules that come in last minute so it's impossible to plan trips, etc...don't forget the $$ of plane tickets to them. Also, don't underestimate how much of your life and friendships that you miss out on when you're flying to see a boyfriend over the weekend. you miss out on social events, bonding with classmates, etc. which also will impact your well-being and ability to do well at Duke. from my experience, LDRs can make both parties become a bit isolated from the worlds they're currently in, because half of their mind is in another state.
- it's easy enough for people to say "oh if it's meant to be, it will work out anyways with a boyfriend so just choose the career. if it doesn't work out then it wasn't meant to be." sorry but that's bull****, relationships are not mystical bonds that are either doomed to fail or blessed to survive. a relationship is WORK; love is WORK, and you can't just kick your relationship to the side and hope that it will work out, and then justify it not working out after the fact because you did not prioritize it. maybe the relationship WAS "meant to be," but you didn't nurture it enough and therefore lost it. people who say "never prioritize your partner over your career" are also the people who do not realize that love and relationships take an extraordinary amount of sacrifice. if you continually ONLY prioritize your career, prestige, and academic success, that is a recipe for loneliness. that being said, there are ways to go to Duke and still keep your relationship...but it will take an enormous amount of work. in fact, you could think of the choice this way: you can either make an up-front sacrifice (i.e. go to UTSW, turn down higher ranked school) to make the relationship easier later on, or choose to make sacrifices as you go (go to Duke but then have to spend money, lose time with friends to visit him, etc).
- people say you may regret it if you choose UTSW but break up with your boyfriend -- this is true. but regret goes both ways. would you regret it if you went to Duke, had a slightly more prestigious but similar experience than you would have at UTSW, and ended up breaking up with your boyfriend due to distance -- you would look back with regret and always wonder, what if I nurtured my relationship more? what if i made more sacrifices for the people i love? would i be less lonely and isolated as I feel right now? would i have had a life and a family with him? at the end of the day, only you know how what this relationship is. strangers on the internet are more likely than not going to tell you to ignore your boyfriend and partner because you don't have a ring on your finger yet. but marriages and engagements end, too. tons of people get divorced all the time. does that mean when you're married, you don't make any sacrifices for your spouse, because "hey we are likely to get divorced anyways?" Relationships don't just need work, they also need a little bit of blind-eyed optimism and faith.
- can you make this decision without resenting your partner? are you at a place and are you ready to make choices for someone you love knowing the uncertainties that come with this decision? would three years with your boyfriend be worth turning down Duke, even if you don't end up at the same place for residency?

sorry, i know this is just a lot of questions and "what-ifs," but I hope some of this thought process is helpful. I really feel for you and know this is a difficult decision to make, and at times it almost feels like an identity crisis / coming of age crisis (Am I the type of person who chooses love or prestige? Happiness or achievement? Am I old enough to even choose a relationship over a career? etc.) I want to assure you that whether you go to Duke or UTSW your career will be incredible and you WILL be an incredible doctor, it just may take slightly more work to get to a certain residency or specialty at UTSW. and conversely, if you really love your boyfriend and are committed, your relationship will be ok, but it will take a lot more money, sacrifice, and work to make it happen if you go to Duke. you just have to decide which sacrifice you want to make.

Hi thank you so much for your detailed thoughts - I think these were really important points to consider. I completely agree with you that relationships are a lot of work, and I don't believe in the whole "trust in your relationship and it'll work out" thought process either. The way you put it in terms of up-front vs later sacrifice was really helpful, and I appreciate the way you spelled it out for me. I'll definitely give this more consideration!

 

[lostinthesauce12]

Agreed with many of the points mangowolf made above. I also think it's worth noting that while Duke's med school has a higher overall USNWR ranking, UTSW's hospital actually is much better regarded in dermatology (Doximity residency ranking in derm is generally top 10 compared to Duke at ~45). This would translate to the quality of research and the strength of letters you would be able to get in derm research.

Hi thanks so much for letting me know! Would Doximity generally be considered pretty credible in terms of its rankings?

 

[lostinthesauce12]

Long winded bull..... Duke can get you where to go. It is harder for your bf to match than you, that's the truth. You will have more flexibility if you go to Duke. I am sure your specialty choice and perhaps his is likely to change anyway. What do you really know at this point Duke can help you decide. Raleigh is very diverse and fun to live. Unless you are ready for marriage now, don't make this decision based on a variable that may not be significant, especially when you can match more easily than him. I think you would regret not attending Duke. It is a better choice.

Hi I appreciate your input - thanks so much! Do you think that Duke will provide a significant edge over UTSW in terms of derm matching though? By reputation and research output rankings on Doximity, it seems like UTSW does seem better ranked than Duke (although idk if this is credible/accurate for residency ratings). Given that I would be happy to stay at UTSW for residency/fellowship, do you think Duke is much better still?

I think you raise incredibly valuable points, but I just don't want to be someone who sacrifices everything to match/advance their career. That may make some people happy, but I know that climbing the ivory tower by tossing aside my meaningful relationships will most likely leave future me regretful. That's why I think it's important for me to believe that Duke's advantage over UTSW is significant enough to justify me going there. Please let me know if that makes sense haha

 

[ujsc]

Hi I appreciate your input - thanks so much! Do you think that Duke will provide a significant edge over UTSW in terms of derm matching though? By reputation and research output rankings on Doximity, it seems like UTSW does seem better ranked than Duke (although idk if this is credible/accurate for residency ratings). Given that I would be happy to stay at UTSW for residency/fellowship, do you think Duke is much better still?

I think you raise incredibly valuable points, but I just don't want to be someone who sacrifices everything to match/advance their career. That may make some people happy, but I know that climbing the ivory tower by tossing aside my meaningful relationships will most likely leave future me regretful. That's why I think it's important for me to believe that Duke's advantage over UTSW is significant enough to justify me going there. Please let me know if that makes sense haha

Rereading the quote, I think it is best to mention that I thought explanation was too long and very one sided. That is what I meant and wasn't meant to be disrespectful.

All the points raised have merits but you should go with the facts. 1) You will have more options to match at whatever specialty you choose, 2) Duke is cheaper for you, and 3) I am sure your SO will wait to advance your career if it is meant to last. A wait of 2 more years won't be too bad especially if you keep in touch by Zoom and visiting him on vacation weeks. I personally wouldn't put my interests above a SO who has a chance to go to a better school. I have more faith in the relationship than that. Besides, he is pretty busy already, isn't he by going through rigors of med school. There is alot of comradery from classmates that can make things less lonely.

In my opinion, the advantage is significant enough especially since specialty is unknown until you go through process. What if you change specialty choices? then what school would give you the most options...Duke IMO.

Best wishes to a prosperous new career while maintaining your SO relationship.

 

[wetconcrete]

Hi thanks so much for letting me know! Would Doximity generally be considered pretty credible in terms of its rankings?

Yeah, it's pretty credible in terms of its rankings. From what I've heard, it's pretty comparable to USNWR for med schools - there might not be a big difference in #7 vs #10, but there's a big difference in T10 vs T50, T20 vs T80, etc.

If you browse by specialty, the rankings are generally what people think of in terms of the top programs. For example, IM has MGH/UCSF/Hop/BWH at the top, optho has Jackson/Wills/Iowa/Hop, peds has CHOP/Boston childrens/Cinci/UW, neurosurg is UCSF/Barrow/Hop/UW, etc. If you compare the top programs by specialty mentioned on forums and by doctors to the Doximity reputation rankings, they're roughly similar.

 

[voxveritatisetlucis]

Regions are important to think about too.

They’re equally rated in Texas, I would imagine with UTSW having a slight edge

In the mid Atlantic and New England (ie, where there is a large concentration of hospitals and therefore residencies), Duke has a much better reputation.

For peer schools, I would say that Duke is with Columbia, Yale, Weill etc.

UTSW peer schools are UCLA, Northwestern, Mayo, Chicago

There isn’t really much of a difference but the former are bona fide top 10 whereas the others are T15-T20. Both more than good enough to get derm.

 

[mangowolf]

Rereading the quote, I think it is best to mention that I thought explanation was too long and very one sided. That is what I meant and wasn't meant to be disrespectful.

All the points raised have merits but you should go with the facts. 1) You will have more options to match at whatever specialty you choose, 2) Duke is cheaper for you, and 3) I am sure your SO will wait to advance your career if it is meant to last. A wait of 2 more years won't be too bad especially if you keep in touch by Zoom and visiting him on vacation weeks. I personally wouldn't put my interests above a SO who has a chance to go to a better school. I have more faith in the relationship than that. Besides, he is pretty busy already, isn't he by going through rigors of med school. There is alot of comradery from classmates that can make things less lonely.

In my opinion, the advantage is significant enough especially since specialty is unknown until you go through process. What if you change specialty choices? then what school would give you the most options...Duke IMO.

Best wishes to a prosperous new career while maintaining your SO relationship.

Lol, sorry it was too long for you, I generally don’t edit my own SDN posts for concision. Feel free not to read the post if you don’t have the time

Agreed it was one-sided but mainly because I was trying to provide alternative perspective to the previous posters before me who were primarily supportive of OP attending Duke….

We seem to primarily disagree on the point that Duke actually gives a significant advantage to matching other specialties compared to UTSW, tbh. If OP was asking should they go to UCSF/Hopkins or UTSW that would be a different story. Duke isn’t really that much better than UTSW as you’re making it sound.

 

[mangowolf]

Regions are important to think about too.

They’re equally rated in Texas, I would imagine with UTSW having a slight edge

In the mid Atlantic and New England (ie, where there is a large concentration of hospitals and therefore residencies), Duke has a much better reputation.

For peer schools, I would say that Duke is with Columbia, Yale, Weill etc.

UTSW peer schools are UCLA, Northwestern, Mayo, Chicago

There isn’t really much of a difference but the former are bona fide top 10 whereas the others are T15-T20. Both more than good enough to get derm.

yea, this is the point I was trying to make in my post, being T10 vs T20 really doesn’t matter that much, at that point it’s about how you perform and I think OP should just choose the school they think they will be happiest at. I heavily leaned towards UTSW as the tone of the post sounded like OP wanted to go to UTSW and just wanted confirmation they would not be missing out on a whole lot if they turned down Duke…and I don’t think they would really be missing out on much….

Will a program director look at an app and think “OP went to UTSW/Northwestern instead of Duke/Cornell, ewwww” LOL no, those schools likely all blend together. Does Duke offer significant advantages in research or letters etc…also no…maybe the only thing is that it’s slightly cheaper but that’ll be offset by price of flight tickets lol.

 

[voxveritatisetlucis]

I agree but would offer on caveat. If OP ever decided to leave clinical medicine (consulting, venture capital etc.), Duke would make it easier than UTSW

 

[ujsc]

yea, this is the point I was trying to make in my post, being T10 vs T20 really doesn’t matter that much, at that point it’s about how you perform and I think OP should just choose the school they think they will be happiest at. I heavily leaned towards UTSW as the tone of the post sounded like OP wanted to go to UTSW and just wanted confirmation they would not be missing out on a whole lot if they turned down Duke…and I don’t think they would really be missing out on much….

Will a program director look at an app and think “OP went to UTSW/Northwestern instead of Duke/Cornell, ewwww” LOL no, those schools likely all blend together. Does Duke offer significant advantages in research or letters etc…also no…maybe the only thing is that it’s slightly cheaper but that’ll be offset by price of flight tickets lol.

I believe Duke also has a superior program in teaching it's med students. One thing that wasn't discussed was it's small individualized class size. I know several in program and they all think it is top notch. The original OP preferred UTSW for reasons that were personal. I prefer to look at it logically and still believe it is a superior school for all the combined reasons I mentioned. It is just my opinion, but NC is a pretty fun place to live as well.

 

[lostinthesauce12]

I believe Duke also has a superior program in teaching it's med students. One thing that wasn't discussed was it's small individualized class size. I know several in program and they all think it is top notch. The original OP preferred UTSW for reasons that were personal. I prefer to look at it logically and still believe it is a superior school for all the combined reasons I mentioned. It is just my opinion, but NC is a pretty fun place to live as well.

Hi thank you so much for your thoughts - I truly appreciate it! I definitely agree with you that I personally do think Duke has a better program, especially in terms of what I'm interested in (I think Duke's huge opportunities for research would allow me to not take a research year for derm, which is super important).

I think it really boils down to whether I'm willing to work harder at UTSW to get similar results with my SO there, or would I much rather wholeheartedly chase my career. I'll definitely give it more thought, but I appreciate this perspective as well!

 

[ujsc]

Hi thank you so much for your thoughts - I truly appreciate it! I definitely agree with you that I personally do think Duke has a better program, especially in terms of what I'm interested in (I think Duke's huge opportunities for research would allow me to not take a research year for derm, which is super important).

I think it really boils down to whether I'm willing to work harder at UTSW to get similar results with my SO there, or would I much rather wholeheartedly chase my career. I'll definitely give it more thought, but I appreciate this perspective as well!

Two years isn't that long a time. It won't mean your whole heart is dedicated there. Couples give and take at different points depending on need. Think of it as possibly making things possibly more flexible for you both to share a similar locale in residency. It would be your last great adventure before you settle down for good. Raleigh is pretty fun and has awesome diverse cuisine. I went to UNC and had a blast.

 

[lostinthesauce12]

Two years isn't that long a time. It won't mean your whole heart is dedicated there. Couples give and take at different points depending on need. Think of it as possibly making things possibly more flexible for you both to share a similar locale in residency. It would be your last great adventure before you settle down for good. Raleigh is pretty fun and has awesome diverse cuisine. I went to UNC and had a blast.

I think if it were just two years, I'd be pretty tempted to go to Duke. I think the issue is that because we both don't know where we will be for residency, it complicates the entire situation.

Assuming that my bf most likely won't match to Duke optho or UNC optho (since optho is just competitive so it's hard to definitively say where you want to go), it would be at least 4 years of long-distance. If I attend a separate residency program afterward, it'll be probably closer to 8 years of long-distance.

I think me going to UTSW would at least give us a greater chance of ending up together in the same place for residency due to the home program advantage. That said, nothing is definitive in this situation either, and we both may not be able to match to UTSW. And because Duke is such a nice opportunity with a curriculum that I like, I'm really struggling to make a decision haha

 

[ujsc]

I think if it were just two years, I'd be pretty tempted to go to Duke. I think the issue is that because we both don't know where we will be for residency, it complicates the entire situation.

Assuming that my bf most likely won't match to Duke optho or UNC optho (since optho is just competitive so it's hard to definitively say where you want to go), it would be at least 4 years of long-distance. If I attend a separate residency program afterward, it'll be probably closer to 8 years of long-distance.

I think me going to UTSW would at least give us a greater chance of ending up together in the same place for residency due to the home program advantage. That said, nothing is definitive in this situation either, and we both may not be able to match to UTSW. And because Duke is such a nice opportunity with a curriculum that I like, I'm really struggling to make a decision haha

Why don't you think you can match in Texas? Duke's name carries alot of weight not just in NC. It is way early to know for sure what residency specialty you'll be in anyway. It is best not to overthink either. It is your call to make. Best wishes on making the right choice. You will be fine with either choice I am sure. If you choose UTSW, you will open another spot for someone else at Duke. Either way you will bring happiness.

 

[JohnJacobJingleheimer]

Regions are important to think about too.

They’re equally rated in Texas, I would imagine with UTSW having a slight edge

In the mid Atlantic and New England (ie, where there is a large concentration of hospitals and therefore residencies), Duke has a much better reputation.

For peer schools, I would say that Duke is with Columbia, Yale, Weill etc.

UTSW peer schools are UCLA, Northwestern, Mayo, Chicago

There isn’t really much of a difference but the former are bona fide top 10 whereas the others are T15-T20. Both more than good enough to get derm.

Agree with this, although I think those peer schools might be a bit generous for UTSW. I think of it more alongside Emory, Baylor, Case, UNC, UVA. But just splitting hairs really lol.

Duke overall certainly has a decisive edge reputation wise. How tangible that edge will be come match is a whole different story, and, like vox said, will vary from a place like Texas to NYC.

 

[deleted1136715]

Long time lurker here - never bothered to make an account until just now. Your post and the resulting comments actually motivated me to make an account to specifically reply to you since I have had extensive experience at both institutions (PM for details) and I was afraid you were being misguided by some of the following comments.

I want to push back on the notion that Duke is the "better program." It certainly has the slight edge in pure reputation but that's about it. Most students I know at Duke are extremely stressed and overworked. They do have great things to share about the program, but have a lot of gripes as well (as you mentioned tests every other Monday stress a lot of the students out and there is a weird competitive academic culture among students). The idea that it is easily the "better" program just isn't true. With that, I noticed you said you would have to "work" harder at UTSW. From my experiences and people at both schools, I also believe that is untrue. Students at Duke definitely work extremely hard and are stressed. That being said, my connections at UTSW have also mentioned that it's tough at times. But they echo that students get amazing training. More or less they are the same program and will give you the same training and opportunities. You'll have to grind basically the same amount to get to where you want to go at Duke and UTSW. So with that I want to push back on the idea that you're even choosing between your career or relationship. Either school, either situation - your career is basically in the same position (an amazing one!) because they more or less have the same positive and negatives.

I think the only difference between these two schools is the reputation component among pre-meds and people that care about rank. Which is completely fair to choose a school for - it's okay to be honest that you care about reputation for the sake of reputation (a lot of people do). In the long run this reputation isn't likely to impact your matching chances at all because the schools are close enough (specifically in Texas and home matching, where I would argue UTSW is actually better - as you can make relationships and connections with the people that are going to evaluate your application UTSW). But I would almost say the decision is choosing between school reputation for the sake of reputation vs your relationship/support system and not one that involves your career or impacts your future. Feel free to PM for details!

 

[BritainKittenMittens]

This is an incredibly hard choice, and I can see people making decisions either way.

If it were me, I'd probably go with Duke, unless you're sure you're going to marry this person like next year. Like you mentioned, P/F for clinicals takes off a lot of stress. And that a school is okay with doing it most likely means that it doesn't see its students having trouble matching. Only schools with big match energy can do this (at least for now), and that also speaks to the reputation of Duke.

You're (probably) young. You have an idea of what things will be like, match back into this, marry this person. But things change. You might realize the person is not for you. You might change specialties, decide you want to do academia or realize you don't want to match back into TX. The Duke name is big in medicine--and outside of medicine, important if you decide not to practice. If you decide to do business/ health care consulting, the firms will be recruiting MDs from Duke which also has a solid MBA program if you want to do a dual degree.

Also I wouldn't worry so much about matching back to the exact same residency school. If he's targeting cities, there will be multiple chances to be in the same area. If he's matching back to UTSW, I'm sure there are many residencies in Dallas.

You gotta go with your gut on this one, but Duke is an amazing opportunity.

 

[hydroflaskhomie]

Hello! I made a similar choice and I followed my career. I think you have to think about what you might regret not going for the most, and in this case I think that might be Duke.

My bias is that I didn't love UTSW. It felt too big and the campus was not great IMO.

 

[BritainKittenMittens]

With that, I noticed you said you would have to "work" harder at UTSW. From my experiences and people at both schools, I also believe that is untrue. Students at Duke definitely work extremely hard and are stressed.

I had a friend of a friend at Duke that was very stressed too, but I think that might be because of the condensed 1-year pre-clinical curriculum. Not sure what UTSW is like, but getting through that in a year frees up so much time for research later on, which is helpful for matching in competitive specialties.

 

[deleted1136715]

I had a friend of a friend at Duke that was very stressed too, but I think that might be because of the condensed 1-year pre-clinical curriculum. Not sure what UTSW is like, but getting through that in a year frees up so much time for research later on, which is helpful for matching in competitive specialties.

UTSW is a 1.5 preclinical so not too much of a difference and has a lot of research opportunities built into the curriculum. A lot of the people I know at Duke directly told me that what also contributes to Duke students' stress is the academic culture there which is kind of gunnery and competitive. But to be transparent I have heard similar things from the people I know at UTSW. So my point was basically both schools are great and are basically similar.

A lot of the replies and sentiment on this thread was assuming the OP would be choosing between career or relationship. And imho, since the schools are actually much more similar than people think (with UTSW being better in someways and Duke being better in others) the OP isn't actually directly impacting their "career future" at all - just choosing between the other variables at each school (like fit, culture, social scene, location, support system proximity, etc) which could still mean Duke might be a better fit!

 

[lostinthesauce12]

Hello! I made a similar choice and I followed my career. I think you have to think about what you might regret not going for the most, and in this case I think that might be Duke.

My bias is that I didn't love UTSW. It felt too big and the campus was not great IMO.

Haha yea to be honest I didn't really love UTSW's location (seen it while visiting my bf a few times) since it doesn't really have any other "nice" student facilities that Duke has.

 

[ujsc]

It is also way too hot. I like the spring like weather in Raleigh Durham area!

Well you have heard all possible scenarios and feedback. Time to make the call..

 

[lostinthesauce12]

Hiii just wanted to make an update post here after everyone was so kind as to give me advice! I ended up choosing UTSW, although the choice was definitely not easy.

I think a massive part for me was that whenever I envisioned myself at Duke, there was an insurmountable amount of dread and regret. Even with its beautiful campus, fancy facilities, and excellent curriculum, something was missing for me. Overall, I was just not excited about the prospect of attending Duke despite all it had to offer. That said, I wasn't particularly excited about UTSW either (and I'm still not entirely excited); I think this entire decision-making process really (unfortunately) put a damper on my excitement about going to medical school. However, I had a feeling that I would be okay with UTSW in the long-run, and this was something I couldn't confidently say about Duke.

I struggled with this decision in the beginning because I feel like my self-worth has been heavily tied to my academic achievement/success all my life. I was initially drawn to Duke because it gave me just that: a sense of value in how I saw myself. Yet, when I truly think about what made me happy in undergrad, it was never the ranking of my school or the letters on my transcript but the people I grew to love and cherish. Throughout this process, I realized that the momentary feeling of pride from saying "I attend DukeMed" simply wasn't worth the love and support I have received and would continue to receive from my boyfriend.

Although I don't know what will happen during residency, I want to be able to grow with my bf during my first years of medical school. The amount of joy, laughter, and love that my bf brought me in the last few years is irreplaceable in my heart. (We also seriously discussed our future and agreed that we are definitely heading towards marriage haha). And so, even if it's just for two years, I want to confidently say that I chose my own happiness. And frankly, for me, the amount of prestige and career advantage that Duke has to offer cannot trump that.

 

[LoveCoffee]

I think this entire decision-making process really (unfortunately) put a damper on my excitement about going to medical school.

Oof - I really feel that one.

Glad you made the choice you feel best about - best of luck to you in the very exciting future you have ahead!!

 

[skeptastic]

Oof - I really feel that one.

Glad you made the choice you feel best about - best of luck to you in the very exciting future you have ahead!!

I felt that as well. The process wears you down. I've had to regroup several times and remind myself that, even at 42, this is the path I chose, and it is what I truly want. Mortality and exhaustion can wreak havoc on one's psyche and motivation. The process is brutal and purposely weeds out those who might not have it in them to survive the rigor. In the end, any one of us that gains medical school acceptance is fortunate beyond words. Whether one's options are UTSW vs. Duke or TCOM vs. CCOM, it is a privilege to have an opportunity to become a medical student and eventual doctor. The struggle can undoubtedly make you forget how fortunate you are, though.

 

[lostinthesauce12]

I felt that as well. The process wears you down. I've had to regroup several times and remind myself that, even at 42, this is the path I chose, and it is what I truly want. Mortality and exhaustion can wreak havoc on one's psyche and motivation. The process is brutal and purposely weeds out those who might not have it in them to survive the rigor. In the end, any one of us that gains medical school acceptance is fortunate beyond words. Whether one's options are UTSW vs. Duke or TCOM vs. CCOM, it is a privilege to have an opportunity to become a medical student and eventual doctor. The struggle can undoubtedly make you forget how fortunate you are, though.

Haha you're totally right! I think I just didn't expect being in such a fortunate position would cause me so, so much stress, especially because I felt like I was nowhere near this stressed during applications/interviews. But I definitely feel grateful to have been even provided such an opportunity! It really gave me the opportunity to introspect and examine what I want from life, rather than what I have been taught to want.

 

[mangowolf]

Hiii just wanted to make an update post here after everyone was so kind as to give me advice! I ended up choosing UTSW, although the choice was definitely not easy.

I think a massive part for me was that whenever I envisioned myself at Duke, there was an insurmountable amount of dread and regret. Even with its beautiful campus, fancy facilities, and excellent curriculum, something was missing for me. Overall, I was just not excited about the prospect of attending Duke despite all it had to offer. That said, I wasn't particularly excited about UTSW either (and I'm still not entirely excited); I think this entire decision-making process really (unfortunately) put a damper on my excitement about going to medical school. However, I had a feeling that I would be okay with UTSW in the long-run, and this was something I couldn't confidently say about Duke.

I struggled with this decision in the beginning because I feel like my self-worth has been heavily tied to my academic achievement/success all my life. I was initially drawn to Duke because it gave me just that: a sense of value in how I saw myself. Yet, when I truly think about what made me happy in undergrad, it was never the ranking of my school or the letters on my transcript but the people I grew to love and cherish. Throughout this process, I realized that the momentary feeling of pride from saying "I attend DukeMed" simply wasn't worth the love and support I have received and would continue to receive from my boyfriend.

Although I don't know what will happen during residency, I want to be able to grow with my bf during my first years of medical school. The amount of joy, laughter, and love that my bf brought me in the last few years is irreplaceable in my heart. (We also seriously discussed our future and agreed that we are definitely heading towards marriage haha). And so, even if it's just for two years, I want to confidently say that I chose my own happiness. And frankly, for me, the amount of prestige and career advantage that Duke has to offer cannot triumph that.

so very happy for you - I think the excitement of med school will come back soon when you have some more time post-decision. wishing you all the love, happiness and fulfillment in the world!

 

[123OkayGoogle]

You couldn’t have gone wrong tbh. There should still be a lot of pride to say you’re going to UTSW. That’s an amazing school. I’m jealous lol

 

[frlbd2]

I know I'm late but I just wanted to point out that in the latest residency program director rankings (which are behind a paywall lol!), UTSW was ranked as the best school in TX (#17) with Duke being at #11. Aka very small difference in prestige, and the gap is closing in my opinion. Glad you were able to choose what was best for you! Oh btw, see you at UTSW in August!

 

[lostinthesauce12]

I know I'm late but I just wanted to point out that in the latest residency program director rankings (which are behind a paywall lol!), UTSW was ranked as the best school in TX (#17) with Duke being at #11. Aka very small difference in prestige, and the gap is closing in my opinion. Glad you were able to choose what was best for you! Oh btw, see you at UTSW in August!

Haha excited to meet you then!! <3