DrNP and ND programs

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windsurfr said:
I posted previously my concerns about PA/NP's that go directly into training. They do so instead of medical for one of four reasons:

1. They dont want to go to school as long (hours,debt, etc)
2. They dont want the legal responsibilities
3. They want more predictable hours than physicians
4. They couldn't get into medical school

If I a am wrong in this statement, please tell me otherwise.

The problem that I have with the above is that it SELF SELECTS those who are less willing to work hard and learn at a deeper level. They want to know the basics, learn treatment algorithms.... and thats it. They have selected to undergo 5-8 years less training in hopes to attain the same privaleges / title / etc. You may not need molecular genetics or neurophysiology to practice primary care... but the in depth scientific background is important to fundamental understanding of pathophysiology. This is not learned in PA or nursing school.
Again: those of you who went into NP/PA programs did so for one of the above four reasons... therefore in what position are you to demand more?

Hello,
I would say that you are correct about reasons 1, 2, and 3. Most PA's, like myself did not even try to get into medical school. I didn't because of reasons 1 and 3. I fit the bill in terms of prerequisites and grades for entering medical schools and did not take the MCAT. I didn't need to. I don't know if I would have gotten into medical school, as I didn't apply. If you look at the demographics of PA school applicants and Med school applicants, you likely will not find that much difference in grades, prereq's. The difference you will likely see in PA applicants is age being higher and having more medical experience. I think most people who become PA's want to do it, often because of reasons 1, 2, and 3, and because they feel they can practice medicine at a high level without accepting all the responsibility of "being the boss".

I agree that standardized tests are not the only answer. I was not suggesting that we be allowed to take steps 2 and 3 to become doctors without going to medical school, but just as a "better" way to gauge basic medical aptitude.

Pat

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pushinepi2 said:
I really do need to consolidate my loans. :)

Also, I do not plan on jumping out of windows should PAs pass the USMLE. Just a couple of observations. First of all, there's no question that seasoned health care providers could pass the USMLE steps 2 and 3. Nobody should argue that those tests are the gold standard for today's physicians. Rather, they function to "gauge" an individual student's competence. They are MINIMUM standards that graduating students must meet to be considered for licensure. It is up to residency program directors and staff to seek out the higher scores and investigate individual merit. While experienced PAs might not bat an eyebrow at Steps 2 and 3, I'd be willing to bet that the ABEM/AOBEM (board examinations in emergency medicine) would be considerably harder. It is not unheard of for unprepared board eligible physicians to fail one of two parts of their specialty certifying examinations. What I'm getting at is the following: the question of whether PAs could pass the USMLE is unimportant. It is not even relevant to the existence of a medical school monopoly. Again, the exams enforce minimum standards required for eventual graduate training.... To focus on the examination does little to acknowledge the student's particular background. The USMLE is designed to assess the student who has completed two years of training in the basic medical sciences. Nurse practitioners, on the other hand, do not undertake a comprehensive study of biochemistry and are therefore not prepared for the USMLE. Similarly, physicians know little of the process-based approach to health maintenance and care. NPs, PAs, and docs serve different yet complementary roles... the training is necessarily tailored to the needs of each profession.

Emedpa makes several salient points and I do not want to detract from his contribution to the forum. Rather, I'm just trying to move away from equating good medical practice with some standardized test. Good NPs and PAs will most probably practice, "better" medicine than their unseasoned and naive medical student/resident counterparts. That is undisputed. To function as a specialist and to have ultimate responsibility for patient care, on the other hand, requires more investment in training. That is why physicians must complete residency training and choose to focus on a specialty track. Notice the elimination of the general practitioner. Today's GPs are not really generalists in the strictest interpretation of the word. Family practice physicians have to complete 3 years of post graduate education to be board eligible. I cannot argue that board certified family practitioners are far and away the best arbiters of primary care. What is clear, however, is that the family medicine specialist will:
1. get 100% reimbursement from medicare/medicaid
2. be ultimately responsible for patient care
3. pay higher malpractice premiums
4. dictate their own scope of practice
5. Have narcotic prescriptive privileges in all 50 states
6. Have the opportunity for further sub-specialization

Is that worth the three years? That, I think, is the important question.

Hmmmm...


I agree, specialty boards are brutal. It would take quite a seasoned PA with loads of experience to pass specialty boards without residency. I am not suggesting this.
Also, that would take away one of the things that makes being a PA so attractive. The ability to change specialties whenever you want.

Pat
 
pushinepi2 said:
I really do need to consolidate my loans. :)

Also, I do not plan on jumping out of windows should PAs pass the USMLE. Just a couple of observations. First of all, there's no question that seasoned health care providers could pass the USMLE steps 2 and 3. Nobody should argue that those tests are the gold standard for today's physicians. Rather, they function to "gauge" an individual student's competence. They are MINIMUM standards that graduating students must meet to be considered for licensure. It is up to residency program directors and staff to seek out the higher scores and investigate individual merit. While experienced PAs might not bat an eyebrow at Steps 2 and 3, I'd be willing to bet that the ABEM/AOBEM (board examinations in emergency medicine) would be considerably harder. It is not unheard of for unprepared board eligible physicians to fail one of two parts of their specialty certifying examinations. What I'm getting at is the following: the question of whether PAs could pass the USMLE is unimportant. It is not even relevant to the existence of a medical school monopoly. Again, the exams enforce minimum standards required for eventual graduate training.... To focus on the examination does little to acknowledge the student's particular background. The USMLE is designed to assess the student who has completed two years of training in the basic medical sciences. Nurse practitioners, on the other hand, do not undertake a comprehensive study of biochemistry and are therefore not prepared for the USMLE. Similarly, physicians know little of the process-based approach to health maintenance and care. NPs, PAs, and docs serve different yet complementary roles... the training is necessarily tailored to the needs of each profession.

Emedpa makes several salient points and I do not want to detract from his contribution to the forum. Rather, I'm just trying to move away from equating good medical practice with some standardized test. Good NPs and PAs will most probably practice, "better" medicine than their unseasoned and naive medical student/resident counterparts. That is undisputed. To function as a specialist and to have ultimate responsibility for patient care, on the other hand, requires more investment in training. That is why physicians must complete residency training and choose to focus on a specialty track. Notice the elimination of the general practitioner. Today's GPs are not really generalists in the strictest interpretation of the word. Family practice physicians have to complete 3 years of post graduate education to be board eligible. I cannot argue that board certified family practitioners are far and away the best arbiters of primary care. What is clear, however, is that the family medicine specialist will:
1. get 100% reimbursement from medicare/medicaid
2. be ultimately responsible for patient care
3. pay higher malpractice premiums
4. dictate their own scope of practice
5. Have narcotic prescriptive privileges in all 50 states
6. Have the opportunity for further sub-specialization

Is that worth the three years? That, I think, is the important question.

Hmmmm...


agree with above. a residency trained md/do is way ahead of a pa.There is a reson you guys make the big bucks that being said SOME pa's could probably pass the fp written board exam. when studying for pa boards I used fp board materials(swanson's, etc) and practice tests and might have been able to pull a minimum passing score. that is not to say that my skills were/are equivalent just that the fp board exam isn't terribly difficult. other specialties obviously would be much more difficult because pa's are trained mostly in primary care.
 
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emedpa said:
agree with above. a residency trained md/do is way ahead of a pa.There is a reson you guys make the big bucks that being said SOME pa's could probably pass the fp written board exam. when studying for pa boards I used fp board materials(swanson's, etc) and practice tests and might have been able to pull a minimum passing score. that is not to say that my skills were/are equivalent just that the fp board exam isn't terribly difficult. other specialties obviously would be much more difficult because pa's are trained mostly in primary care.

Some excellent discussion here, as always. Its kind of interesting to note that this particular thread parallels so many others going on here at SDN and around the country. The scope of practice definition is central to many of these discussions... I recently stumbed upon the ophthalmology thread where the MDs are going head to heard against the ODs with regard to recent revisions in Oklahoma medical practice laws. While people with medical education tend to be civil and respect the opinions of others, this courtesy seems to fly out of the proverbial window when discussing scope of practice. I find it hard to believe that the optometrists, for example, have patient interest foremost in mind when lobbying for scalpel surgery privileges. With respect to the DrNP degree, physicians are legitimately worried about what consequences will follow the paradigm shift towards doctorate-level nurse clinicians.

Its important to remember that the practice of medicine is contingent upon an integrated health care team. Western healthcare involves all sorts of issues like lack of access, underserved areas, and cost concerns. PAs, NPs, and other physician extenders provide services not otherwise available to a sizeable portion of the population. Consider what would happen to emergency departments nationwide if PAs and NPs were no longer permitted to staff urgent/acute/ fast track areas. A virtual nightmare. Everybody needs to get along.

Also, scope of practice discussions are necessary and are not going to disappear any time soon. Decisions on scope of practice should proceed from a thorough understanding of each health care provider's education. In Coral Springs Florida, there was a time in which chiropractic physicians functioined as primary care providers for the city police department. Though it seems ridiculous from a third-party standpoint, these chiropractors were hired to perform employment physicals for police candidates. I find it hard to believe that any legislator, when presented with the facts of medical education, would advocate for chiropractors to replace MDs/DOs in the primary care setting. Fortunately, local medical lobbies worked hard to educate legislators and the program was summarily terminated.

Independent practice should not take place without physician guidance. There is no question that NPs and PAs deliver excellent primary care without direct physician supervision. Depending on state laws, physician input can be understood as anything from pre-arranged medical protocols to brief on site chart review. The precise type of working environment that exists between the physician and 'extender' is best defined individually. I know the nursing lobby, however, would beg to disagree. Their position paper on independent practice nursing is not to subtle. Check out the DrNP thread on the emergency medicine forum.....

It is probable that rational discussion does little to impart clarity to these interesting discussions. Unfortunately, political and financial gain remains a major motivator for professional societies eager to secure their prospects in a dynamic health care environment. Furthermore, government agencies (Medicaid/Medicare) will listen to virtually anyone promising to lower health care costs while providing a approximately similar level of service.

As an aside, I overheard a specialist talking to a pharmaceutical rep today. The following evidence based conversation took place just outside of the emergency department:

REP: "Jeez! I need to increase my market share. Why is it that ophthalmologists won't prescribe [my drug]?"

DOC: "Don't worry. Just tell the formulary committee that you'll beat [the other drug company's] price by a buck a bottle..."

REP: "Thanks! When would be a good time to schedule lunch?"

Save us from ourselves.

-PuSh
 
HI,
Just wanted to clear some cobwebs....do Dr.NP students do training/ clinical rotations in surgery like MDs/DOs and PAs?


Thanks
Nev :rolleyes:
 
nev said:
HI,
Just wanted to clear some cobwebs....do Dr.NP students do training/ clinical rotations in surgery like MDs/DOs and PAs?


Thanks
Nev :rolleyes:

Dunno. I also don't think training is easily compared from one profession to the next. My school, for example, requires two months of surgery during the third and/or fourth year. My second month was spent on the trauma service where I was responsible for rounding on trauma patients, suturing, staffing the clinics, and assisting in general and trauma cases (fond memories of the bowel runs, of course). This rotation was typically 60-80 hours per week and involved 24 hour call every fourth night. I'm sure other med students can tell similar stories about their surgery clerkships. Questions like these can only be answered if people have an accurate understanding of the clinical curriculum. On the other hand, I'm positive that registered nurse first assistansts (RNFA's) have much more specific surgical experience.
 
emedpa said:
SERIOUSLY, if even 1 pa or np passed step 1-3 of usmle without attending med school what message would that send to the medical education community at large?
you don't need to do 4 yrs of med school and a residency to practice medicine at the highest level......

:laugh:
Anybody could probably pass ANY test if they studied specifically for that test, esp for a year as someone had mentioned. These tests are ment to assess STUDENTS/INTERNS after 1 year of basic science (step I), 1 year of clinical medicine (step II) and 1 year supervised practice (step III) and usually only a few weeks at the most are taken to study. A "seasoned" PA that studied for a year and passed doesnt say much and I doubt anyone would jump out a window. Comparing yourself to a med student prob wouldnt phase any attendings either. If you really want to compare apples and oranges, lets have PA studnets take the step I after their first year, step II after thier second year with the study time constraints that med students have (weeks to prepare). What would be the point of PAs taking it anyway?? It tells nothing about how good or bad your clinical skills are its only good for 1. obtaning license (thats MD) 2. obtating residency (which are only open to MD/DO last time i checked). If you want to practice medicne at "the highest level" then why not go to medical school? :eek:
 
You're a sophomore in college and incredibly naive about the real world.


I disagree with you. He has some valid points. I entered military service as a combat medic and after the service became a paramedic. I just been accepted into a transition Paramedic to an RN program here in Texas (1 year) and am looking forward to it. My initial goal for doing it was to gain more knowledge, because EMT-P is the terminal degree in the emergency services field (lol). But after talking to my RN friends I started seeing myself in that role. But the idea of a nurse does not sit well with my male soldier ego. It took me a little time to stop teasing my 2 combat buddies about becoming nurses. I plan on going further in my studies then just an Associates in nursing. And I would like to know that there will always be something for me more to learn, and something that will recognise my achievment.

There is nothing wrong with wanting a title. We are all different. I would rather be called a medic then a nurse, so would a bunch of ex military guys who are getting into this field (and there is a ton of us). If there is a term that will change what people call me from a nurse to anything else... Practitioner, Doctor, Registered Medic, it makes it just that much more atractive to persue. And every guy out there with a similar backround agrees. So you might be proud to call yourself a Nurse, I'm proud to save lives, but I'd rather be called anything but a nurse. And NO I don't want to go to medical school, rack up $200K in loans, and loose 4 years of income just because someone does not share on opinion of what I should feel like, and what I should want to be called.

Hell, I think I will change my nickname to ParaDoctor... lol!:cool:
 
I disagree with you. He has some valid points. I entered military service as a combat medic and after the service became a paramedic. I just been accepted into a transition Paramedic to an RN program here in Texas (1 year) and am looking forward to it. My initial goal for doing it was to gain more knowledge, because EMT-P is the terminal degree in the emergency services field (lol). But after talking to my RN friends I started seeing myself in that role. But the idea of a nurse does not sit well with my male soldier ego. It took me a little time to stop teasing my 2 combat buddies about becoming nurses. I plan on going further in my studies then just an Associates in nursing. And I would like to know that there will always be something for me more to learn, and something that will recognise my achievment.

There is nothing wrong with wanting a title. We are all different. I would rather be called a medic then a nurse, so would a bunch of ex military guys who are getting into this field (and there is a ton of us). If there is a term that will change what people call me from a nurse to anything else... Practitioner, Doctor, Registered Medic, it makes it just that much more atractive to persue. And every guy out there with a similar backround agrees. So you might be proud to call yourself a Nurse, I'm proud to save lives, but I'd rather be called anything but a nurse. And NO I don't want to go to medical school, rack up $200K in loans, and loose 4 years of income just because someone does not share on opinion of what I should feel like, and what I should want to be called.

Hell, I think I will change my nickname to ParaDoctor... lol!:cool:


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Oddly enough, the fact that I enjoy [and am fairly good at] punching other men in the face does is in no way diminished by the reality that I will be a murse in three months.


I could even wear pink scrubs while I spar.
 
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Oddly enough, the fact that I enjoy [and am fairly good at] punching other men in the face does is in no way diminished by the reality that I will be a murse in three months.


I could even wear pink scrubs while I spar.

Josh... Most of us like being medics. And I do not know any guy who would conciously choose the title of Nurse vs Medic, all things being equal. But like you, I am willing to suffer the fate of un unatractive name they chose. Guess it could be the old world mentality in me. PS if you are in Houston, give me a jingle, I havent had a fight in about 6 month. I'm even willing to wear gloves. Hope we are in each others weight class, because honestly I do not like fighting people smaller then myself (10 years of being a bouncer and people always assume I'm a bully. Couldn't be further from the truth.)
 
Josh... Most of us like being medics. And I do not know any guy who would conciously choose the title of Nurse vs Medic, all things being equal. But like you, I am willing to suffer the fate of un unatractive name they chose. Guess it could be the old world mentality in me. PS if you are in Houston, give me a jingle, I havent had a fight in about 6 month. I'm even willing to wear gloves. Hope we are in each others weight class, because honestly I do not like fighting people smaller then myself (10 years of being a bouncer and people always assume I'm a bully. Couldn't be further from the truth.)

Houston is a hell of a drive but since I have to spend next X-mas with the in-laws in Dallas...

BTW, your hands and fingers are your livelihood, so START WEARING GLOVES! I know it is a difficult change, and I still refuse to wear them while lifting weights, but a necessary one.


Oh, and it's up to us to change people's misconceptions about mursing...I mean being a male nurse. Uh, just nurse.

And being a future FMP or CRMA.
 
And being a future FMP or CRMA.

FYI...as the sister of a crna (he's a guy, too!)...and a 1st year PA student...I would say if you want a long, stable, financially secure life....be a crna.;)

If you want to practice medicine and see all different kinds of situations, and be involved in the whole body...go to PA school...NOT FNP. PA's make more money and have more specialty freedom.

Just my $.02:D
 
Houston is a hell of a drive but since I have to spend next X-mas with the in-laws in Dallas...

BTW, your hands and fingers are your livelihood, so START WEARING GLOVES! I know it is a difficult change, and I still refuse to wear them while lifting weights, but a necessary one.


Oh, and it's up to us to change people's misconceptions about mursing...I mean being a male nurse. Uh, just nurse.

And being a future FMP or CRMA.


I have started wearing gloves for everything about 4 month ago weight training, bag work, etc. Plus I'm 31, so I'm looking to switch more into BJJ type of training, I'm tired of being hit in the face.

On a different note... I welcome the addition of the DrNP degree to the fold. I'm always looking to get better educated. And being recognised as achieving something that says I'm at the top of my game feels good. Plus I see it as for what it is a Doctor of Nursing, not a replacement of the MD fields. It is a different field designed on working with the patients to facilitate change in their healths future so they would not need to go to the MD for drastic measures correction.

Not to mention most NPs who treat patients get the same results as MDs do. Studies have shown that. I'm not sure which university did this study in NY. But it was a 3 year independent project from when the said universities NP program was asked to take over a portion of a hospital to aleviate in the MD shortage. There were no found differences in the owncomes of patients between the two groups (one being NPs and other being MD). We are of course not talking about highly complex operating procedures.
 
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War Medic:

Please include a reference for the study you mentioned. I am aware of studies done to see how PA and MD outcomes differ but none for NP. The NP training is so specific (FNP cannot just work in CC without more training) that I cannot see how this could be a general correlation for NP as a profession. The PA medical model schooling allows for this and I believe that is what smrtmom1 is alluding to (more mobility.) This is not an attack, I am genuinely curious...
 
I have started wearing gloves for everything about 4 month ago weight training, bag work, etc. Plus I'm 31, so I'm looking to switch more into BJJ type of training, I'm tired of being hit in the face.

On a different note... I welcome the addition of the DrNP degree to the fold. I'm always looking to get better educated. And being recognised as achieving something that says I'm at the top of my game feels good. Plus I see it as for what it is a Doctor of Nursing, not a replacement of the MD fields. It is a different field designed on working with the patients to facilitate change in their healths future so they would not need to go to the MD for drastic measures correction.

Not to mention most NPs who treat patients get the same results as MDs do. Studies have shown that. I'm not sure which university did this study in NY. But it was a 3 year independent project from when the said universities NP program was asked to take over a portion of a hospital to aleviate in the MD shortage. There were no found differences in the owncomes of patients between the two groups (one being NPs and other being MD). We are of course not talking about highly complex operating procedures.

You've managed to mix up about 3 or 4 different studies. The one that I think that you are referring to is this one:
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/...Retrieve&dopt=abstractplus&list_uids=10632281

Interesting thing about this was that the original was published in JAMA while the follow up was done in Medical Care Research and Review:
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/..._uids=15358970&query_hl=6&itool=pubmed_docsum

There are number of problems with this study including lack of reliable follow up. Also if you look at this study, look at the letters to the editor in JAMA which make a number of valid criticisms.

Bottom line there has not been a decent properly powered study that shows that independent NP's provide the same care as physicians. There are poorly done studies that show NP's provide the same or better care than residents, but that is hardly a proper comparison. If you know of any studies that show NP's acting independently provide results as good or better than a physician doint the same job please provide it.

David Carpenter, PA-C
 
BTW, your hands and fingers are your livelihood, so START WEARING GLOVES! I know it is a difficult change, and I still refuse to wear them while lifting weights, but a necessary one.

Yep, I dislocated my thumb doing Hapkido and didn't go to the doc until it was too late. Now, every friggin day traumatic arthritis reminds me how stupid I was.
 
Here is the study:







In the early 1960s, the faculty at the University of Colorado's Department of Pediatrics came up with an idea for a new health profession - the nurse practitioner - a registered nurse with advanced academic and clinical experience, who could work independently or as part of a health care team. By 1965, the university had created the first training program for nurse practitioners. Today, almost 40 years later, New York City's Columbia University School of Nursing is working toward a new goal for this field: a Doctor of Nursing Practice (DrNP) degree program.
Nurse practitioners (NPs) normally collaborate with a supervising physician, who assists them in addressing any questions or problems the nurses might encounter. Most NPs work in primary care, but their practices also encompass other specialties. The DrNP degree will help current nurse practitioners (NPs) advance their independent nursing skills by providing more extensive training. "Developing this degree program is about assuring quality," says Mary O'Neil Mundinger, RN, DrPH, a major force behind this project. "Right now, there are no training programs for nurse practitioners addressing in a formal, standardized way the expanded skills that our nurses have taken on over the past decades."
There are other nursing doctorates already in existence. The University of Kentucky grants a Doctor of Nursing Practice (D.N.P.) degree geared toward leadership development. In addition, some universities confer a research-focused nursing Ph.D., but Columbia University's proposed DrNP degree would be the first program specifically tailored to nurse practitioners seeking to refine independent and advanced nursing skills in primary care.
Comparing NP and Physician Services

The process of developing the proposed DrNP program took nearly a decade. In 1993, the faculty at Columbia University's College of Physicians and Surgeons noticed it lacked enough primary care physicians to staff the medical center and asked the university's nursing school faculty to take over two primary care sites. These clinical sites, located at what is now New York-Presbyterian Hospital/Columbia Presbyterian Center, provided health care for the area's low-income Dominican families.
"We agreed to take over the two clinical practices with the condition that the hospital would support us in doing a research study to show the effects, costs, and outcome of our treatment on the patients we served," says Dr. Mundinger. Prior to this study, there had been more than 100 other published clinical studies that indicated no gap in the quality of treatment provided by NPs and the care provided by physicians. But the results of the studies were criticized as invalid because "they weren't part of the gold standard in scientific study design," according to Dr. Mundinger.
In an effort to come up with definitive answers, the nursing school faculty put together a randomized clinical trial using identical clinical locations. "We had the same geography, same square footage, same support staff," says Mundinger. "The difference was that the providers in one site were physicians and the providers in the other sites were my faculty."
The nursing faculty was given admitting privileges to the university hospital "to reduce the variables in the study," Dr. Mundinger explains. Preparation for the trial took approximately one-and-a-half years, and the trial itself was carried out over a two-year period. When the trial was completed, the faculty performed an analysis of the data, and the results indicated there was no gap in the quality of services provided by the nurse practitioners and the physicians.
In 1997, Columbia's School of Nursing opened its first practice in midtown Manhattan for commercially insured patients. The practice was so successful, the school opened an additional practice, and it still holds admitting privileges to the university's medical center.
"In the New York metropolitan area, the primary care practice base is not as robust as other areas of the country on the physician side," explains Thomas Morris, M.D., Columbia University's vice president for Health Sciences, vice dean of College Health Sciences, and vice dean of the College of Physicians and Surgeons, "Advanced practice nurses have identified a natural niche which they are able to fill quite well."
Columbia University's medical faculty has been supportive of the nursing school's efforts, according to Dr. Morris. "The form of advanced practice nursing, and the collaborative efforts between the nurses and members of the medical staff, has varied from one department to another, but it has been tailored to meet the needs of both levels of providers," he notes.
The study's final results, published in the January 2000 Journal of the American Medical Association (JAMA), found that in an ambulatory care situation, patients treated by either nurse practitioners or physicians had comparable outcomes. An editorial in the same JAMA issue however, questioned the study's external validity, or its ability to apply to "other study sites and other populations of patients."
Invading the Realm of PCPs

Since nurse practitioners first entered the scene in 1965, they have gradually taken on responsibilities that were once under the exclusive purview of primary care physicians (PCPs). Some physicians are disturbed at this trend and question whether patients are receiving the same quality of care under nurse practitioners. Perry Pugno, M.D., M.P.H., director of the division of medical education at the American Academy of Family Physicians, a national organization representing family doctors, argues that PCPs have more years of training under their belt, and are more capable of providing quality care than NPs.
"It's well recognized that nursing education does not include the same number of curriculum hours and patient contact time that physician education does," Dr. Pugno says, stressing that PCPs go through four years of medical school and at least three residency years before they practice. If the DrNP program gets approved, he says, NPs pursuing primary care roles would undergo a maximum of four years of graduate education, compared to the seven years primary care physicians go through.
"Since this proposed program appears to be an educational program with substantially less training than what primary care physicians receive, representing NPs as equivalent to PCPs would be disingenuous, and would result in lowering the quality of care provided," says Dr. Pugno.
Not all physicians share Dr. Pugno's view, however. Richard Cooper, M.D., former dean and current head of the Health Policy Institute of the Medical College of Wisconsin, believes that the quality of care offered by NPs is comparable to the care provided by physicians. He also thinks the competition between NPs and PCPs is not cause for concern. "There is no question that nurse practitioners' work overlaps very broadly the workscope of primary care physicians, but that's not entirely the case," says Dr. Cooper. "PCPs tend to treat patients with higher acuity, more complex diseases, and engage in a greater range of tasks and procedures. On the other hand, many patient care responsibilities of PCPs deal with things such as well-baby exams, upper-respiratory infections, mild hypertension, patient education, and nutrition. Many of these things are readily performed and done on a daily basis by NPs."
Competition between NPs and PCPs already exists, Dr. Cooper says, and is probably here to stay. "After all, there's competition among physicians as well," he notes. If this program gets approved, he says, the difference will be that doctors will then compete with NPs who have more years of training in their field.
A higher level of training for nurse practitioners is something that is long overdue, according to the supporters of the DrNP program. "The more sophisticated you make the knowledge base of the clinicians, the higher the level of practice that is achieved. This provides the opportunity to produce very sophisticated clinicians," says Polly Bednash, Ph.D., executive director of the American Association of Colleges of Nursing (AACN), a national organization representing university and four-year-college education programs in nursing.
"The health care system today is so complex that we need the most sophisticated clinicians possible," says Dr. Bednash.
Michael Whitcomb, M.D., senior vice president of the AAMC's division of medical education, also agrees that today's health care academic environments must match professional changes and expectations. "When these advanced practice nurses set up their independent clinics, the faculty at Columbia's school of nursing realized that many of the responsibilities and skills they acquired were things learned by virtue of having been out in practice settings, not things learned during their formal education," Dr. Whitcomb explains. "The faculty concluded that the standards of the educational process leading to this kind of advanced independent nursing practice weren't high enough. This proposed educational program [addresses this problem] by having standards that are high enough to prepare the nurses for independent practice."
Professionals in most fields try to improve their own academic and career standards, and advanced nursing practice shouldn't be an exception, says Dr. Cooper. "It wasn't that long ago when physicians entered practice right out of medical school," he says. "Having a three-year residency is a relatively recent phenomenon. The nursing profession is driving this [push for more years of clinical training] just as the medical education establishment drove medical education to where it is today." Because nurse practitioners hold the highest level of independence of all nursing practices, Dr. Cooper thinks it is inevitable that there will be more programs like the one Columbia is proposing.
But critics also argue that programs emphasizing nurses' independent practice may exacerbate the country's current nursing shortage by redirecting nurses from hospital sites into private practice. "This kind of program does two things to worsen the nursing shortage," says Dr. Pugno. "First, if successful, it would draw people away from other areas of nursing into this doctoral program. Second, it gives the mixed message to young people interested in other nursing careers that being a nurse, as opposed to an NP, isn't big enough."
Dr. Mundinger believes the opposite is true. "Finally, there is credibility to the fact that nursing practice at its highest level merits a doctorate degree," she says. "This can add luster to the attraction of entry-level jobs because it turns this profession into one that goes just as far, and does just as much intellectually, to merit a doctoral degree as the other health professions."
Dr. Cooper also doubts this program could aggravate the nursing shortage. "There are 3.5 million nurses in America," says Dr. Cooper. "In a few years, there will be 100,000 master's level trained nurse practitioners. So one can predict that there might be, at the doctoral level, approximately 25,000 nurse practitioners. These 25,000 NPs out of a total of 3.5 million nurses won't make a big difference."
Nurses choosing to participate in such a program could still be useful hospital staff regardless of the program's emphasis on independent nursing skills, says Christiana Care Health System's president and CEO Charles M. Smith, M.D., a member of the AAMC's Council of Teaching Hospitals administrative board. Graduates of this proposed program could become "sophisticated clinical managers," Dr. Smith believes.
"Because of their training, such nurses might be able to better understand how a hospital's clinical nursing structures could be revised and modified so that more effective use of nursing resources can take place," he says. "Someone who understands well the clinical delivery of a type of care is in the best position to figure out how that might be changed in order to effectively use nursing resources. Ultimately, this could even have an impact on reducing the demand of nursing resources."
In addition to the nursing shortage problem, the prospect of a physician shortage adds another dimension to this discussion. In a Health Affairs article published last January, Dr. Cooper warned readers of a potential physician shortage. Citing that article, Dr. Bednash says that the entrance of better-trained nurse practitioners in the scene could help alleviate this potential problem.
Regardless of whether or not the above prediction materializes, Dr. Bednash believes health care professionals should keep their minds open to innovation and experimentation in their area. "All health professionals share the common goal of having the best health care system possible in this country," says Dr. Bednash. It should be in the interest of health care professionals to be innovative and to make sure the best care is given to the greatest number of people possible, she believes. "This isn't a zero-sum game; there's enough work for everyone, and we should figure out how to best use the finite resources of health professionals to give the best care to the greatest number of people."
 
Here is the study:
lots of stuff cut out
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/...Retrieve&dopt=abstractplus&list_uids=10632281
This is the same study. Look at it critically.

"MAIN OUTCOME MEASURES: Patient satisfaction after initial appointment (based on 15-item questionnaire); health status (Medical Outcomes Study Short-Form 36), satisfaction, and physiologic test results 6 months later; and service utilization (obtained from computer records) for 1 year after initial appointment, compared by type of provider."

The problem with this is that it was too short to see if there were any real outcomes differences. With a total 1300 patients you are unlikely to see any difference at one year and six months. This is what the letters to JAMA say. In addition they did no modeling for health status, coexisting conditions, or medical complexity.

Interestingly enough they did publish two year results.

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/..._uids=15358970&query_hl=6&itool=pubmed_docsum

"This study reports results of the 2-year follow-up phase of a randomized study comparing outcomes of patients assigned to a nurse practitioner or a physician primary care practice. In the sample of 406 adults, no differences were found between the groups in health status, disease-specific physiologic measures, satisfaction or use of specialist, emergency room or inpatient services".

They lost 2/3 of the patients to follow up. Now given the population this is hardly suprising. However, it makes the data totally unreliable which is why it ended up in a much lower tier journal.

You can look at this one here which shows NP's use more resources even when compared to residents:
http://www.acponline.org/journals/ecp/novdec99/hemani.htm

Basically there are no well done studies that show independent NP practice is equivalent to physician status. There are several studies that show that a Physician-NP team provide superior care in diabetes management. There are also several studies that show NP's use more resources for the same outcomes (although several of these are done in the UK where the definition of NP is different).

David Carpenter, PA-C
 
I thought there had to more to it. Be wary of generalized statements b/c often times they are more self-serving than fact-based. I do think that these studies are needed though if done properly.

Thank you for the analysis core0 (David.) BTW, do you work in PA education or politics? You seem very knowledgeable. :thumbup:
 
I thought there had to more to it. Be wary of generalized statements b/c often times they are more self-serving than fact-based. I do think that these studies are needed though if done properly.

Thank you for the analysis core0 (David.) BTW, do you work in PA education or politics? You seem very knowledgeable. :thumbup:

The Politics side. I've been a PA specialty organization president and State chapter president. I have a paper coming out on PA specialty practice. Eventually I would like to get into the educational side. I'm working on my PhD and I have some ideas on how to do outcomes studies. I actually have an interesting idea for a CRNA/Anesthesiologist study on outcomes.

David Carpenter, PA-C
 
. I'm working on my PhD and I have some ideas on how to do outcomes studies.

David Carpenter, PA-C

I think there are so many variables in a NP vs MD type of outcome study. How would a case study response by a variety of practitioners work...to see how each would approach and treat?
 
I think there are so many variables in a NP vs MD type of outcome study. How would a case study response by a variety of practitioners work...to see how each would approach and treat?

Well without giving away my secrets what you need is a huge N. You look at large scale outcomes like death and hospitalization. In the past sorting out the other variables like comorbid conditions had always been the problem. Now there are very sophisticated models that will do this.

David Carpenter, PA-C
 
The Politics side. I've been a PA specialty organization president and State chapter president. I have a paper coming out on PA specialty practice. Eventually I would like to get into the educational side. I'm working on my PhD and I have some ideas on how to do outcomes studies. I actually have an interesting idea for a CRNA/Anesthesiologist study on outcomes.

David Carpenter, PA-C

Very nice David. GI PAs have my respect for sure.:thumbup: :thumbup:

NP studies have to be done separately IMHO. There has been some suggestion of PA/NP vs MD/DO studies but the prerequisite training differences needed to work in certain areas for PAs vs NPs precludes this type of uniformity. I could be wrong...
 
The Politics side. I've been a PA specialty organization president and State chapter president. I have a paper coming out on PA specialty practice. Eventually I would like to get into the educational side. I'm working on my PhD and I have some ideas on how to do outcomes studies. I actually have an interesting idea for a CRNA/Anesthesiologist study on outcomes.

David Carpenter, PA-C

David, as someone looking from outside in, being you are in the PA field, I would say you might be just a tad bit biased:rolleyes:.

The DrNP seems to be viewed not as something that will make nurses better trained, but more as an "how can you call yourself a doctor without the suffering and loans I built up" attitude.
 
David, as someone looking from outside in, being you are in the PA field, I would say you might be just a tad bit biased:rolleyes:.

The DrNP seems to be viewed not as something that will make nurses better trained, but more as an "how can you call yourself a doctor without the suffering and loans I built up" attitude.

Well I do have a bias for PAs, but the beauty of an academic environment is that this is irrelevant. I have an academic advisor who is not a PA (or a provider for that matter) who helps me design the study. Also whether its shows what I think it should show or not it gets published. The peer review process demonstrates that the data and methodology are acceptable.

We need more good studies on the use of NPPs in the delivery of health care. The data is important to not only demonstrate safety, but to show where we need to improve the educational process.

As far as the DNP, I see it as a necessary step for NP programs. Both outside groups that have looked at NP educational models (SBONs and Canadians) have found deficencies in them (particularly in Pharmacology). The DNP is a response in part to these concerns. Also in light of the nursing compact, there is a need to acheive the educational parity necessary for a NP to get licensed in all states. In its original form (1000 hours clinical and courses in Pharm, pathophys and disease process) this provides the necessary educational groundwork to make a competent provider (In my opinion). Unfortunately looking at some of the curriculum posted most of the extra coursework is going to research and nursing theory which is not going to help make the NP more clinically competent. In this case it is about more $$$ and realistically about more power (in an academic sense).

The other issue that has not been addressed is regulation. If you cross index the national provider data bank for NPs using board actions and other actions you see a bimodal distribution with NPs that are under BOM and BON having more disciplinary actions than NPs that are just under BON. Also the discliplinary rate overall is less and falls in the bottom 25% for BOMs. A possible indication that the profession is either unable or unwilling to police itself.

David Carpenter, PA-C
 
I could not read all of the post due to the length of some of the replies and my short attention span.

I am a nurse and a third year medical student and just find it ridiculous to compare nurses to physicians. Nurses do not know what they don't know. I have had a difficult and fun journey from nurse to doctor and i can say without reservation that nurses are not as prepared as physicians to provide the same level of care. So If this repeats a previous post my apologies....

I am all for DNP, NP and everyone else that wants to practice independently to get out there and do it! I don't think in the long term doctors will not lose a single patient. I had a lot of experience as a nurse (army medic) and could see a COPDer walking in a mile a way but I did not have a clue as to the mechanisms and underlying physiology of COPD - I do now and it make a huge difference in developing my differential.

this is getting long...what is the deal with the red headed step child syndrome and the constant need to validate and get "respect" for what you do (sorry red headed step children)??? I went into nursing knowing what I was in for and provide patient care based on the training I received. I thought I knew a lot about medicine until I studied it as a medical student and realized I really did not know as much as I thought I did.....

so if you need respect get a therapist, if you want to practice within your scope and abilities come on in there is plenty of room for everybody.
 
so if you need respect get a therapist, if you want to practice within your scope and abilities come on in there is plenty of room for everybody.

Well said! I am in nursing school and want to go on to be an NP, but I know what my limitations will be and I know (I've got friends who did med school) how much even as an NP I won't know. I'm more than happy to trade working with some supervision (ie NOT being independant!!) for the lifestyle of an NP.

Bryan
 
I could not read all of the post due to the length of some of the replies and my short attention span.

I am a nurse and a third year medical student and just find it ridiculous to compare nurses to physicians. Nurses do not know what they don't know. I have had a difficult and fun journey from nurse to doctor and i can say without reservation that nurses are not as prepared as physicians to provide the same level of care. So If this repeats a previous post my apologies....

I am all for DNP, NP and everyone else that wants to practice independently to get out there and do it! I don't think in the long term doctors will not lose a single patient. I had a lot of experience as a nurse (army medic) and could see a COPDer walking in a mile a way but I did not have a clue as to the mechanisms and underlying physiology of COPD - I do now and it make a huge difference in developing my differential.

this is getting long...what is the deal with the red headed step child syndrome and the constant need to validate and get "respect" for what you do (sorry red headed step children)??? I went into nursing knowing what I was in for and provide patient care based on the training I received. I thought I knew a lot about medicine until I studied it as a medical student and realized I really did not know as much as I thought I did.....

so if you need respect get a therapist, if you want to practice within your scope and abilities come on in there is plenty of room for everybody.

Were you a medic or an RN? Just curious.

The reason why graduate prepared nurses need to validate and fight for respect is because there are always those that want to beat us down. Unless nurses fight the doctors will have complete control of their livelyhood and scope of practice (money and control).

Your are completely right though about there being plenty of room for everybody.
 
I am a nurse and a third year medical student and just find it ridiculous to compare nurses to physicians. Nurses do not know what they don't know. I have had a difficult and fun journey from nurse to doctor and i can say without reservation that nurses are not as prepared as physicians to provide the same level of care.

True and I respectfully will inform you that physicians do not know what they don't know. I say this after being told so by the physicians in my shaman class. After you spend all those years learning, you will still be practicing on the lowest level. I did some work with a physician couple this week who were training with me, both board cert. in FP and psych and he told me what he was learning was much more beneficial than the way he was treating diabetics back home.

Another session starts tomorrow so I'll be gone for awhile...aren't you guys lucky, ha, ha.
 
Unfortunately looking at some of the curriculum posted most of the extra coursework is going to research and nursing theory which is not going to help make the NP more clinically competent.

Columbia's DrNP has only one research course in their program. There are slight differences in curriculum's of different schools, but in all honesty it will be about 10 years before they work out the kinks in the program and get them standardized.
 
True and I respectfully will inform you that physicians do not know what they don't know. I say this after being told so by the physicians in my shaman class.

I can honestly say that this is the funniest thing I have ever read on SDN.
 
True and I respectfully will inform you that physicians do not know what they don't know. I say this after being told so by the physicians in my shaman class. After you spend all those years learning, you will still be practicing on the lowest level. I did some work with a physician couple this week who were training with me, both board cert. in FP and psych and he told me what he was learning was much more beneficial than the way he was treating diabetics back home.

Another session starts tomorrow so I'll be gone for awhile...aren't you guys lucky, ha, ha.

:laugh: I mean no disrespect, but this made me laugh for some reason. Shaman class.
 
:laugh: I mean no disrespect, but this made me laugh for some reason. Shaman class.

No problem. Shamans take their work seriously but not themselves. It's been an interesting three weeks of training this summer.:D
 
the shamman is back! what I don't know - that is the point. There are so many different specialties and I will only specialize in one. I am not sure what your are doing with the "physician couple" and if it is even legal in this country (you still out of country?) It must be difficult to have such a vast understanding of the universe and its sham like possibilities and have to discuss such trivial concerns with us lower level (non psychic/psycho) health care providers.

Good to hear that you are still alive and saving the world from unenlightened health care providers..


Old man
 
No problem. Shamans take their work seriously but not themselves. It's been an interesting three weeks of training this summer.:D

It only takes three weeks to learn to be a shaman? :confused:

I guess there's no thesis requirement. ;)
 
the shamman is back! what I don't know - that is the point. There are so many different specialties and I will only specialize in one. I am not sure what your are doing with the "physician couple" and if it is even legal in this country (you still out of country?) It must be difficult to have such a vast understanding of the universe and its sham like possibilities and have to discuss such trivial concerns with us lower level (non psychic/psycho) health care providers.

Good to hear that you are still alive and saving the world from unenlightened health care providers..


Old man

Missed me didn't you? I've been in several countries this summer but back at home in Dhaka...which is still "out of country."

The levels I was addressing are:

Physical - this is where you work old man with your cutting and pasting, meds etc. and it's you I'd call when that is needed.
Symbolic
Mythic
Energetic

I can work at all four but it's the last two, and especially the last, where your world as you know it gets turned upside down and you join the physicians and other healthcare professionals that are having fun. As one psychologist told me, "talk therapy is now so boring.":laugh:
 
It only takes three weeks to learn to be a shaman? :confused:

I guess there's no thesis requirement. ;)

No, I completed three more weeks of sessions this summer. Like any field, you never stop learning. No thesis as it's experiential...but lot's of homework/client/personal work.

One change I've noticed is that forums such as this one really are boring but I'll try to visit every few weeks when I'm bored. I guess you could say shamanism has had a positive effect on me. :D
 
Missed me didn't you? I've been in several countries this summer but back at home in Dhaka...which is still "out of country."

The levels I was addressing are:

Physical - this is where you work old man with your cutting and pasting, meds etc. and it's you I'd call when that is needed.
Symbolic
Mythic
Energetic

I can work at all four but it's the last two, and especially the last, where your world as you know it gets turned upside down and you join the physicians and other healthcare professionals that are having fun. As one psychologist told me, "talk therapy is now so boring.":laugh:

Hilarious.

On the upside, I'm willing to bet that I wouldn't want any of your patients making appointments with me . . . thanks for bleeding off the crazies from my clinic.
 
No, I completed three more weeks of sessions this summer. Like any field, you never stop learning. No thesis as it's experiential...but lot's of homework/client/personal work.

One change I've noticed is that forums such as this one really are boring but I'll try to visit every few weeks when I'm bored. I guess you could say shamanism has had a positive effect on me. :D

Is there a nurse-shaman certification yet;)?

David Carpenter, PA-C
 
Hilarious.

On the upside, I'm willing to bet that I wouldn't want any of your patients making appointments with me . . . thanks for bleeding off the crazies from my clinic.

What you will not think so funny is the fact that they have already been to you and are not getting relief. Has that sunk in yet? One day you will catch on...maybe.
 
Is there a nurse-shaman certification yet;)?

David Carpenter, PA-C

Nope and FYI, once my contract is up next summer, no more nursing for me.
 
Is there a nurse-shaman certification yet;)?

David Carpenter, PA-C

I did see a nurse certification in "spirituality in medicine". it's an emphasis for 1 of the fnp programs, I forget which one off hand. always good to have around for those exorcisms in the office;"oh spirit of fibromyalgia begone and come back only if you develop a real diagnosis".
 
What you will not think so funny is the fact that they have already been to you and are not getting relief. Has that sunk in yet? One day you will catch on...maybe.


shamman what you don't get is that these "patients" are as nutty as you. The reason they don't get "relief" is because nothing is wrong and they are looking for someone to validate their psychic (edit) pain. If you want to get paid for that - good for you. I will refer all the nutty tree hugging I need chicken bones and bat Guiana to cleanse my soul...This still does not validate you position that we dumb a$$ doctors don't know what we are doing. Just because you dance around someone while chanting gibberish does not make you a health care provider maybe just a sham artist that fleece the mentally ill.

So I do know my limitations - realizing that there are other specialties that could better manage the patient and I should consult compared to the all knowing NP/shamman/PhD (in what???)

now for those health care providers (MD/DO/mid-level/RN/CNA) - we are a team and everyone has an IMPORTANT (i am not better than you) part!!!!

So in actuality - people will find relief in our outdated not quantum physics health care and will be cheated from true relief by your goat skin chaps dance party.:smuggrin::smuggrin:
 
shamman what you don't get is that these "patients" are as nutty as you. The reason they don't get "relief" is because nothing is wrong and they are looking for someone to validate their psychic (edit) pain. If you want to get paid for that - good for you. I will refer all the nutty tree hugging I need chicken bones and bat Guiana to cleanse my soul...This still does not validate you position that we dumb a$$ doctors don't know what we are doing. Just because you dance around someone while chanting gibberish does not make you a health care provider maybe just a sham artist that fleece the mentally ill.

So I do know my limitations - realizing that there are other specialties that could better manage the patient and I should consult compared to the all knowing NP/shamman/PhD (in what???)

now for those health care providers (MD/DO/mid-level/RN/CNA) - we are a team and everyone has an IMPORTANT (i am not better than you) part!!!!

So in actuality - people will find relief in our outdated not quantum physics health care and will be cheated from true relief by your goat skin chaps dance party.:smuggrin::smuggrin:

You still, no matter how many times I repeat it, do not understand that I do not think I'm better than anyone else...at anything. You can not "fix" everyone that comes to your office, nor can I. However, the fact remains that the people that seek me out are your "failures" so don't forget to refer and help them cut down on the years of wandering around lost.

Would you like me to see if one of the "nutty" shaman physicians I know would pm you...or would you prefer a physicist?
 
I did see a nurse certification in "spirituality in medicine". it's an emphasis for 1 of the fnp programs, I forget which one off hand. always good to have around for those exorcisms in the office;"oh spirit of fibromyalgia begone and come back only if you develop a real diagnosis".

Fibromyalgia is very real to the people who have it, including the ones that are bedridden. I'm guessing you might be one provider that is baffled by the treatment of these people. I love these challenges (another reason for your referrals); my wife used to have FMS.
 
Fibromyalgia is very real to the people who have it, including the ones that are bedridden. I'm guessing you might be one provider that is baffled by the treatment of these people. I love these challenges (another reason for your referrals); my wife used to have FMS.

:laugh:

I'm not baffled by the treatment of these people at all.

Psych referral.
 
Fibromyalgia is very real to the people who have it, including the ones that are bedridden. I'm guessing you might be one provider that is baffled by the treatment of these people. I love these challenges (another reason for your referrals); my wife used to have FMS.


shamman must be confused by the real psychiatric component of fibromyalgia then again he has a delusion that his chanting and the use of various herbs cures psychiatric conditions associated with fibromyalgia

hey shamman you never mentioned what you are getting your PhD in???
 
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