"Dog tracking" walking

[Apollyon]

I've looked all over the intarwebz and not found an answer. First, are any of you aware of the term "dog tracking" as refers to the back end of cars when out of alignment? The rear end move to one side or the other, and the vehicle moves forward obliquely due to this. This is called "dog tracking", and so called as dogs do the same thing. Thus is the crux of my post.

One thing I found online was that, if you ask a vet, they'll often declare that this does not exist, or they immediately go to something ortho.

Our dog is a rescue, almost a year old. He's mostly Jack Russell, and with a little beagle in him. He is healthy. Completely. When he walks, he will assume a conformation where his butt moves to the left a little, but he still moves in a straight line - if you looked down on him, instead of a rectangle, he would be formed like a parallelogram. This does not bother him in the least. He has already urinated when he does this, and just walks along.

First, does this make sense? Second, have you ever heard of it? As I have found many people online with the question, but very, very few answers (and even less that had any clarity), I know that I am not alone.

I am not asking for healthcare advice for my dog. I am wondering, academically, why do dogs do this? However, more specifically about my dog, if he has scoliosis, would it manifest in this 10 month old dog, already?

My point is, I see this process, but it clearly does not appear pathological.

Thanks to all for looking, and any erudition that anyone might be able to display.

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[dyachei]

I've looked all over the intarwebz and not found an answer. First, are any of you aware of the term "dog tracking" as refers to the back end of cars when out of alignment? The rear end move to one side or the other, and the vehicle moves forward obliquely due to this. This is called "dog tracking", and so called as dogs do the same thing. Thus is the crux of my post.

One thing I found online was that, if you ask a vet, they'll often declare that this does not exist, or they immediately go to something ortho.

Our dog is a rescue, almost a year old. He's mostly Jack Russell, and with a little beagle in him. He is healthy. Completely. When he walks, he will assume a conformation where his butt moves to the left a little, but he still moves in a straight line - if you looked down on him, instead of a rectangle, he would be formed like a parallelogram. This does not bother him in the least. He has already urinated when he does this, and just walks along.

First, does this make sense? Second, have you ever heard of it? As I have found many people online with the question, but very, very few answers (and even less that had any clarity), I know that I am not alone.

I am not asking for healthcare advice for my dog. I am wondering, academically, why do dogs do this? However, more specifically about my dog, if he has scoliosis, would it manifest in this 10 month old dog, already?

My point is, I see this process, but it clearly does not appear pathological.

Thanks to all for looking, and any erudition that anyone might be able to display.

If his conformation is off it would make sense he would list to one side.

 

[Apollyon]

If his conformation is off it would make sense he would list to one side.

See, this is what I mean. Are you familiar with which I am talking? This isn't some hypothetical - this really happens, and has been happening for a very long time (as the term referring to the broken springs in the back of a car dates back more than 80 years). As a vet, do you know anything concrete about it? If my dog's conformation is off, wouldn't he do it all the time? Because he doesn't. And it isn't that he is "listing to port"; he's upright, but his butt goes sideways.

 

[dyachei]

See, this is what I mean. Are you familiar with which I am talking? This isn't some hypothetical - this really happens, and has been happening for a very long time (as the term referring to the broken springs in the back of a car dates back more than 80 years). As a vet, do you know anything concrete about it? If my dog's conformation is off, wouldn't he do it all the time? Because he doesn't. And it isn't that he is "listing to port"; he's upright, but his butt goes sideways.

Yeah, i mean, his back legs are listing to one side. My guess is that if he concentrates/has a goal, he can walk in a straight line. but if you have a normal dog with normal conformation you should see a regular straight line gait. I've seen orthopedic research with gait tracking for osteoarthritis - it may be worth it to search for something along those lines for normals.

 

[WhtsThFrequency]

I would also say something ortho related - either preferential weight-bearing due to arthritis (which can manifest itself in young dogs in some cases) or a conformational defect, either genetic or something that was instigated by early trauma (being stepped on as a puppy, hit by car, etc). I have seen the latter in horses that were injured as foals. I guess if you wanted to chase zebras you could think neurologic deficit, but that's a stretch to me.

They may not do it all the time because as dyachei said when they concentrate they can move in a correct fashion (if the defect, wherever it is, isn't too bad that is).

 

[Apollyon]

It sounds like you two have never seen a dog do this. Have you? Is this all completely new and foreign? You both (graduate DVMs - not students) sound abstract or theoretical or hypothetical. I wonder if he is just doing it for mechanical advantage due to the leash (we put a harness on our dog, not connected to his collar). I mean, this isn't brain surgery. Just google "dog walks crooked" or similar and you'll get MANY hits.

 

[scb44f]

I think you are being descriptive enough in how the dog is walking (I've seen more than one dog walk like this, so maybe it's already familiar to me). Regardless, I feel those two have given you pretty fair responses. Heck, why do people walk differently? Some walk on their toes, some seem bow legged, some stomp around on their heels, etc. Could be just how they walk in certain situations, could be their conformation, could be arthritis, could be anything. And I think it can only be hypothetical at this point because none of us can know why your dog sometimes walks that way.

 

[DVMDream]

It sounds like you two have never seen a dog do this. Have you? Is this all completely new and foreign? You both (graduate DVMs - not students) sound abstract or theoretical or hypothetical. I wonder if he is just doing it for mechanical advantage due to the leash (we put a harness on our dog, not connected to his collar). I mean, this isn't brain surgery. Just google "dog walks crooked" or similar and you'll get MANY hits.

You sound like you want some flat out answer as to what is causing your dog to walk the way you describe.

The answer is: Nobody here can tell you. It is impossible to know what is going on with your dog via a few words posted on SDN. I can't even get a clear picture in my head of what you are describing (I have an idea, but not a clear enough picture to get a diagnosis or hazard a guess to what is going on) and if you had come to my clinic, I would need to see the dog walk or ask you to video tape it, if the odd gait doesn't occur all the time. It is also against SDN terms of service to diagnose or answer medical questions on the forums (I only say this because you seem to not be ok with the academic discussion that the other two posters have had and seem to want more of a flat out answer for what is going on rather than just a discussion on possibilities).

 

[dyachei]

It sounds like you two have never seen a dog do this. Have you? Is this all completely new and foreign? You both (graduate DVMs - not students) sound abstract or theoretical or hypothetical. I wonder if he is just doing it for mechanical advantage due to the leash (we put a harness on our dog, not connected to his collar). I mean, this isn't brain surgery. Just google "dog walks crooked" or similar and you'll get MANY hits.

I've seen a dog walk like this. not a big deal. You're being condescending for someone who just wants to know for info's sake.

If you think it's the harness, try a different harness (front clip) or leash...

 

[JaynaAli]

My roommate's dog started doing that after she was hit by a car. I know what you're talking about. She didn't do it before the HBC but she does it after. Why? Who knows. Maybe she broke something and it healed funny, maybe it is a residual neuro deficit, maybe it's arthritis and it wasn't related to the HBC at all. She's fine and happy so we don't worry about it. So her butt sways out to the side, big deal. You said you don't want a specific diagnosis and just wonder academically why dogs do that, you've gotten some great answers. You got exactly what you asked for. If you want something more specific, you need to take your dog to a vet and ask someone who can see it in person to work up the case.

 

[WhtsThFrequency]

It sounds like you two have never seen a dog do this. Have you? Is this all completely new and foreign? You both (graduate DVMs - not students) sound abstract or theoretical or hypothetical. I wonder if he is just doing it for mechanical advantage due to the leash (we put a harness on our dog, not connected to his collar). I mean, this isn't brain surgery. Just google "dog walks crooked" or similar and you'll get MANY hits.

I have seen horses do it. I've seen calves do it. But a dog in person, no. But then again, most of the animals I have seen for the last 4 years aren't moving anymore, as per my specialty (pathology)

We both understand what you're describing. But the fact of the matter is without radiographs to rule out anatomical abnormalities, (at least) it is anyone's guess. Of course we sound theoretical - we've been given a question about dog that walks funny with almost no history other than "is healthy", no Xrays, no ortho exam, no bloodwork, no neuro exam, etc. to further investigate the question. And I wonder how many of these other dogs have actually had a full workup, or if they just expect the vet to diagnose on sight and are dissatisfied with our lack of ability to be miracle workers.

Based on the limited info available, conformational defect due to previous trauma or simple genetics are the most likely causes of a gait like that.

 

[cbarne01]

I have seen horses do it.

Often a young or unfit horse will do this and it may become a habit but systematic training of the muscles on both sides can help them to even out over time. IMO, in a dog on a leash? I wouldn't worry if the vet says its fine but I would be aware and note if the posture changes, musculature develops abnormally or if there is uneven wear or damage to the pads of the feet over time.

 

[WhtsThFrequency]

Speaking of young/unfit animals, diet can also result in abnormalities like this as well. Improper Ca/P ratio, excess protein/general overnutrition, or overworking can lead to asynchronous paired bone growth and resulting conformational or gait abnormalities.

 

[WhtsThFrequency]

Anyway though, when all is said and done, it likely won't cause any long term problems unless there is some deep-seated underlying pathology (e.g. juvenile arthritis) or the gait is abnormal enough to put undue stress on certain joints.

 

[Apollyon]

I have seen horses do it. I've seen calves do it. We both understand what you're describing.

My roommate's dog started doing that after she was hit by a car. I know what you're talking about.

I think you are being descriptive enough in how the dog is walking (I've seen more than one dog walk like this, so maybe it's already familiar to me).

The answer is: Nobody here can tell you. It is impossible to know what is going on with your dog via a few words posted on SDN. I can't even get a clear picture in my head of what you are describing (I have an idea, but not a clear enough picture to get a diagnosis or hazard a guess to what is going on) and if you had come to my clinic, I would need to see the dog walk or ask you to video tape it, if the odd gait doesn't occur all the time. It is also against SDN terms of service to diagnose or answer medical questions on the forums (I only say this because you seem to not be ok with the academic discussion that the other two posters have had and seem to want more of a flat out answer for what is going on rather than just a discussion on possibilities).

You want condescending? Here it is: maybe you need to study more.

As for you trying to quote TOS to me, first, as I clearly stated, mine is a general question spurred by a specific example. I'm a pretty good human doctor (just like any other), and I don't see anything wrong with my dog that rings any bells (since nothing is changed, and nothing is abnormal). When he was gagging and retching, I took him to the emergency vets in town, and found the tar that had adhered to his teeth. I told them what I'd see, brought two possible culprits, and let them do their thing. I am just about as smart as the average bear, and what I know is that, when something is different, that's the problem.

Oh, and I have black letter evidence that "longstanding posters can ask medical questions" (and, after 11 years, that's me). However, I am NOT asking a specific question about my dog. I was wondering why something that is so common seems not to have so much attention from the veterinary community (when I referred to googling, it is that there is a preponderance of queries, but a paucity of responses).

if they just expect the vet to diagnose on sight and are dissatisfied with our lack of ability to be miracle workers.

Welcome to my world. However, "visual diagnosis" is heavily present in human medicine, without blood, xrays, or other interventions, and I dare say that, in many cases, animals are better patients, because, unlike many humans, they only signal where it hurts, and don't say vagaries like "it hurts everywhere, and it just hurts, and all the time, and I don't know when it started, and just give me Dilaudid!"

Anyway though, when all is said and done, it likely won't cause any long term problems unless there is some deep-seated underlying pathology (e.g. juvenile arthritis) or the gait is abnormal enough to put undue stress on certain joints.

Although parenthetical to the original question, that is reassuring.

To anyone who felt offended, my apologies, but the admin above is the 4th female SDN admin that, over the past 11 years, has accused me of condescension (I thought dyachei was a female). Do the males just have thicker skin? I don't know.

I thank those of you who have responded, one and all, and will in the future refrain from visiting the vet forum. I won't bother any of my vet colleagues with any intellectual questions. However, you are all free to ask the human docs - over my 11.5 years on SDN, I've seen much more cooperation than comeuppance on the human side, for both the erudite and the inane.

 

[DVMDream]

Your initial question was this:

I am wondering, academically, why do dogs do this?

You want condescending? Here it is: maybe you need to study more.

As for you trying to quote TOS to me, first, as I clearly stated, mine is a general question spurred by a specific example. I'm a pretty good human doctor (just like any other), and I don't see anything wrong with my dog that rings any bells (since nothing is changed, and nothing is abnormal). When he was gagging and retching, I took him to the emergency vets in town, and found the tar that had adhered to his teeth. I told them what I'd see, brought two possible culprits, and let them do their thing. I am just about as smart as the average bear, and what I know is that, when something is different, that's the problem.

Oh, and I have black letter evidence that "longstanding posters can ask medical questions" (and, after 11 years, that's me). However, I am NOT asking a specific question about my dog. I was wondering why something that is so common seems not to have so much attention from the veterinary community (when I referred to googling, it is that there is a preponderance of queries, but a paucity of responses).



Welcome to my world. However, "visual diagnosis" is heavily present in human medicine, without blood, xrays, or other interventions, and I dare say that, in many cases, animals are better patients, because, unlike many humans, they only signal where it hurts, and don't say vagaries like "it hurts everywhere, and it just hurts, and all the time, and I don't know when it started, and just give me Dilaudid!"



Although parenthetical to the original question, that is reassuring.

To anyone who felt offended, my apologies, but the admin above is the 4th female SDN admin that, over the past 11 years, has accused me of condescension (I thought dyachei was a female). Do the males just have thicker skin? I don't know.

I thank those of you who have responded, one and all, and will in the future refrain from visiting the vet forum. I won't bother any of my vet colleagues with any intellectual questions. However, you are all free to ask the human docs - over my 11.5 years on SDN, I've seen much more cooperation than comeuppance on the human side, for both the erudite and the inane.

Now in this post you state that you weren't asking a specific question but want to know why it isn't getting much attention from the veterinary community. Those are two very different questions with two very different answers. The vets that responded to you did give you an academic discussion as to what might cause a dog to do what you described. After they gave you a few responses you then pissed on them and told them they are "being hypothetical" and asked them if they "had really even seen it". Then you tell them that it "isn't brain surgery" just google it. Yeah, that is condescending, very condescending. Both of those posters were very polite, gave you possibilities and then you pissed on them because it wasn't what you are looking for. To be honest, I still have no idea what you are looking for.

The second point I bolded is just showing that you don't understand much of what goes on in vet med, which I would not expect you to. "Visual diagnosis" is heavily present in vet med. Veterinarians are very limited as to what they can and can not do. We are restricted by how much money our clients have on hand as well as a clients' viewpoint as to how much their pet is worth. I can't tell you how many times I have seen vets skip xrays, bloodwork, etc and go with a "most likely" ddx simply because the client does not have the funds. Also, for the most part, animals are good at signalling "only where it hurts" but that is a very bad assumption. Animals in stressed situations can and do cry out or act in pain even if they are not. Certain breeds of dogs are much more "sensitive" than others and some dogs will simply scream out no matter where you touch them. So it can be difficult to localize what is going on. Also, animals can do the opposite where stress actually keeps them from indicating that they are in pain. Some animals are incredibly stoic and you would be hard pressed to get them to respond to pain... a good example of this would the Jack Russell that amputated the first digit of its own toe and was walking around as if nothing happened; he also did not show any pain when you touched that toe.

As for why something that seems common has little attention from the vet community. It is probably due to a variety of reasons. I have a feeling it is probably not as common as you think, but even if it is, most clients do not see a reason to spend hundreds to thousands of dollars to figure out why their dog is walking oddly. This is especially true if the dog is not showing any signs of pain or any functional abnormalities. Are you willing to spend a few hundred to maybe a few thousand dollars to find out exactly why your dog lists to one side? If not, then we can only be hypothetical about what might cause the issue. Veterinary medicine does not have the funding that human medicine does so many things go without being researched or looked into further. It is an unfortunate fact of veterinary medicine. Clients willingness to pay is what allows us to figure things out and often times clients are complaining about the exam fee before we even get to discussing diagnostics.

You are free to ask intellectual questions and have a conversation with us but don't piss on us when all we can do is have a discussion on possibilities or "hypothetical" causes. As for your comment that I should "study more"; this isn't a matter of studying. I can give you a list of ddx for gait abnormalities. This is a matter of taking what someone is describing in words and creating a visual of it. Some people are great at that and some are not. I would rather as a vet tell a client that I am unsure of what they are describing and ask them to video tape/demonstrate it then to just guess that the image I have in my head is correct. The latter one would make me a bad vet while the former one makes sure that I understand my client and what is wrong with my patient.

 

[CanadianGolden]

I think you're talking about crabbing/sidewinding. It's extremely common and caused by the dog having too much angulation behind and not enough in front. In order to not hit his front feet with his hind, he shifts his hind legs to one side slightly. Many dogs, including conformation dogs, are bred to have a lot of rear angulation and not much front because it looks nice (even if that's not what the standard says). The result is that a lot of breed dogs crab. Is this what you mean?


You can find detailed descriptions in a number of sports medicine books and I think in the Sports Med text from Wiley.

 

[Apollyon]

I think you're talking about crabbing/sidewinding. It's extremely common and caused by the dog having too much angulation behind and not enough in front. In order to not hit his front feet with his hind, he shifts his hind legs to one side slightly. Many dogs, including conformation dogs, are bred to have a lot of rear angulation and not much front because it looks nice (even if that's not what the standard says). The result is that a lot of breed dogs crab. Is this what you mean?


You can find detailed descriptions in a number of sports medicine books and I think in the Sports Med text from Wiley.

Dude (or dudette), you're money!

That's it. However, our dog doesn't seem to bump his front and rear legs. Still, that's it!

Thank you!

 

[CanadianGolden]

Dude (or dudette), you're money!

That's it. However, our dog doesn't seem to bump his front and rear legs. Still, that's it!

Thank you!

Sure. If you want more info you can PM me. Most dogs never actually hit their feet because they learned very young how to avoid it--otherwise they would trip every stride.

 

[that redhead]

However, I am NOT asking a specific question about my dog. I was wondering why something that is so common seems not to have so much attention from the veterinary community (when I referred to googling, it is that there is a preponderance of queries, but a paucity of responses).

Probably because, as you yourself pointed out, your dog is otherwise healthy and happy. Why expend a lot of effort in regards to an anomaly (whose cause has been postulated upon by the veterinarians who have responded) that does not have severe consequences to the animal's quality of life? There is still so much to understand about how the body (human or animal) works that a full out investigation into an apparently harmless behavior would be a little silly, don't you think?

 

[Apollyon]

Probably because, as you yourself pointed out, your dog is otherwise healthy and happy. Why expend a lot of effort in regards to an anomaly (whose cause has been postulated upon by the veterinarians who have responded) that does not have severe consequences to the animal's quality of life? There is still so much to understand about how the body (human or animal) works that a full out investigation into an apparently harmless behavior would be a little silly, don't you think?

This is the reason entire industries of human medicine exist. There is SO much "so what?" research that has been done.

 

[that redhead]

This is the reason entire industries of human medicine exist. There is SO much "so what?" research that has been done.

The qualifier there is "human medicine". We over in vet med don't get nearly the amount of attention or money that you all do and an apparently harmless condition in a small subset of dogs isn't going to get the dollars over comparative med efforts or drug developments. Plus I'd rather that money go into a field like behavior that desperately needs more work done.

 

[CanadianGolden]

Conditions like this are actually kind of important in the (newly recognized) college/field of sports medicine and rehab and they matter to performance dogs, working dogs, and other canine athletes. I wouldn't discount an observation made by an attentive owner.

 

[dyachei]

nobody was discounting it

 

[CanadianGolden]

nobody was discounting it

Why expend a lot of effort in regards to an anomaly (whose cause has been postulated upon by the veterinarians who have responded) that does not have severe consequences to the animal's quality of life?

a full out investigation into an apparently harmless behavior would be a little silly, don't you think?

 

[dyachei]

thats not the same as discounting it. We listened to what he had to say and offered reasons why it was not something deeply distressing to us as doctors.

 

[DVMDream]

Conditions like this are actually kind of important in the (newly recognized) college/field of sports medicine and rehab and they matter to performance dogs, working dogs, and other canine athletes. I wouldn't discount an observation made by an attentive owner.

Discounting an observation would be ignoring the owner and telling them that you see nothing wrong. Nobody here is doing that. Not a single person has discounted the observation. Everyone here has given reasons as to what might be causing the abnormality and seeing as this dog is not some performance/working/canine athlete, it is a bit unlikely that an owner will spend the hundreds of dollars for diagnostics to determine *exactly* what is wrong. Sure, you might get one or two clients in a rare moon who want to know everything and will pay out the wazoo to figure out what is going on, but the vast majority of the public coming into a private practice will not. Especially when this "abnormality" is not causing the dog any pain or harming the dog in any way.

Look, I have read through some of your previous posts on these forums and I understand and can tell from them that you are a breeder or have been or work very closely with breeding. You also probably work very closely with people who own dogs that are more likely to be performance/working/athletic dogs... that is great for you. But, the subset of clientele that you are describing is a small subset. In the 7 years I spent working in practice prior to vet school, I saw 2 clients that were breeders. 2 of them. The only "working" dogs I saw were those that were certified therapy dogs (1 of those in 7 years) and the Jack Russel Terriers that a coworker owned (underground dog challenges). And neither of them would spend the money to work up something like what has been described on this thread.

Not a single person here has yet to discount what the OP said, not one. However, you need to realize that things like what the OP described above are going to be largely either ignored by the owner or never looked into further due to the costs to the owner. If you happen to have someone that owns one of those dogs you mentioned and they really want to investigate it, that is great, you always present the options (just like a bunch of us posted on here.... xrays, ct's, mri, etc)... but chances are good that this is a conformational abnormality and if that is the underlying cause, there is very little that can be done for the dog. There is a big difference between people "discounting" what is being said and saying, "it could be x, y, z; we don't know, you could get xrays done, or other diagnostics, ask your vet, but it will likely cost you a decent amount of money."

 

[2CatMatt]

You want condescending? Here it is: maybe you need to study more.

To anyone who felt offended, my apologies, but the admin above is the 4th female SDN admin that, over the past 11 years, has accused me of condescension (I thought dyachei was a female). Do the males just have thicker skin? I don't know.

I thank those of you who have responded, one and all, and will in the future refrain from visiting the vet forum. I won't bother any of my vet colleagues with any intellectual questions. However, you are all free to ask the human docs - over my 11.5 years on SDN, I've seen much more cooperation than comeuppance on the human side, for both the erudite and the inane.

Wow, kind of shocked someone in this day and age would write something that sexist. How old are you? In any case, male here and I can confirm you're condescending. And also kind of a prick.

 

[Apollyon]

Wow, kind of shocked someone in this day and age would write something that sexist. How old are you? In any case, male here and I can confirm you're condescending. And also kind of a prick.

You're a nobody. I have no idea who you are. By calling me a "prick" (from one thread, unless you researched me and selectively cherry picked something of my 16K posts), you are in violation of the TOS, and you should get an infraction (if they are still doing that), as I got an infraction for calling someone else a "prick", and that is transparency and equity. On SDN, you can BE a prick, but you can't call someone else a prick. But I'm not reporting your post.

Regardless, your useless post is a pitch in the dirt. I hope it made you feel better, and boosted your ego. Perhaps some people will "like" your post. I learned my lesson (before you - you didn't show me anything).