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i echo the sentiments that the mere fact this debate is going on on the path discussino boards is a bad sign
Does pathology have a chance?
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From the spin pdf posted earlier "38% of the graduates consider the job market good." Spin as in trying to paint the job market in a better light than it is.
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In my program, the fellows have found jobs. They told me the job market wasn't good in my area due to the number of residency training programs here, so that's why they are moving to another state.
This is in contrast to other fields (you know which ones I'm talking about)where you can find a job most anywhere, including popular metropolitan cities.
This is in contrast to other fields (you know which ones I'm talking about)where you can find a job most anywhere, including popular metropolitan cities.
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Contrast this with Canada, where the pathology job market is EXTREMELY favorable. In ontario, a path gets an average salary of 330k and there are openings almost everywhere. In NFLD, there are talks of increasing pathology pay to 350k in order to attract more people to that province, and to the field in general.
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Are you kidding? It's true that some places do use you for whatever the partnership track is and then let you go. If you entertain a contract somewhere with a partnership track, ask how many people don't make it to partner and ask for contact information from them. If they refuse move on, if it's a long list contact them and see why... blah blah. the list from this group is short. People who are hired here make parnter, they have no interest in getting someone used to the office and then letting them go. Other places might or might not.
The hours for the new guys are a little longer, because they aren't as efficient yet.. everyone has the same case sign out load and comparable responsibilities. Apparently though I'm at the only office in the entire land that seems to treat their pathologists in a way that I think is fair. (I don't buy this for a minute btw)
What's unbelieveable is that you're saying any 5 year track is a travesty.. what's not a travesty? Partner from day 1? 7 figure signing bonuses? a 100%assurance that you're going to be partner on Day one of month 61 no matter what? You're own massage therapist in your office 8 hours a day incase your neck hurts while you're over the scope?
This is what makes so many people not take the doom and gloom arguments seriously (myself included to an extent..it's definitely not as bad as you say and and it's definitely not perfect). There are things happening that should concern everyone. But claiming that everything is a travesty when it's clear that some people are doing very well and are happy with their situation - and not just the leaders of CAP and similar organizations (which we all agree are 100% evil, completely out to dupe all of us, have IQ's of 50, are deliberately trying to end the field of pathology by 2015, and lying about everything they ever talk about) - makes it very easy to discount everything else said about what are probably real problems.
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You can not be serious. I too have seen groups offering 5 year partnership tracks. That is ridiculous. Indeed here is an ad for a urologist for a 1 year partnership track:
http://www.indeed.com/job/One-year-...cian-Search-in-Cleveland,-OH-516d94e1d1cc7e2d
From MIS physician services:
"I tell my clients that three years is the maximum acceptable period. Lately I've been getting a lot of 12 and 18 months periods before partnership. For some groups, if they can see that the candidate is an especially attractive physician, they will end up giving them an immediate partnership."
http://www.mdjobexchange.com/consultantDetail.aspx?Mode=13
However with the glut of pathologists we now have low paying academic programs offering 5 year partnership tracks. What a joke!
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If the argument here is that the job market sucks because you can't get 1 year to partner contract I guess my perception of reality is slghtly unaligned to yours.
If I was a slave my income would be 0, not sure what I'd have to multiply with to get to a partners salary. I know what they started at 5X my current 4th yr salary and that they are making from 1/4 to 1/6 the partners here depending on what other gigs the partners have going on (M.D. for small labs in surrounding areas that aren't part of the practice). If those fractions are too small, say 1/10 the partners.. then I'd be thrilled to be wrong. Though from what I've been told and unless my mentors are lying these are good approximations.
If you want to get that information I'd invite you to apply to the group.. they have adds in several journals for a central Florida practice looking for a hematopathologist.
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That's handy.. I might suggest that maybe if they change the length they might get some candidates that they like more. It really didn't seem unreasonable to me to make 1/4 mil for 5 years right out of fellowship. But then I think maybe to really be a good pathologist - at least in the eyes of the posters here - I need to dial up the sense of entitlement a few notches from where I had it set this morning.
The really sad thing here is not the screwing. In any glut, exploitation is to be expected. What gets me is the resignation, as if pathology's race to the bottom is an act of God, get over it, that's life, stop complaining, what did you expect?
I dunno. How about a radiologist's expectation? How about an anesthesiologist's? How about any number of other physicians' expectations? Why the hell not?
The issue here is not that we should be grateful we're not squatting next to our mudhuts, okay? I think we can all stipulate here and now that as doctors we are privileged people across the board.
The issue is what is WRONG with pathology and what CAN and SHOULD be done about it. I'm sorry, Yaah, but pathologist supply is not the result of some sober complex calculation by pathologists far wiser than us. It is a number pulled out of the collective asses of pathology residency directors looking for cheap scut and **** research help, and it has nothing whatsoever to do with demand, CAP powerpoint presentations notwithstanding. It is not an act of God to be changed at one's peril.
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Trust me, a good chunk of those people are quite incompetent. If all you do is spend your time studying for a standardized exam all the while churning out ****ty case reports, likely written by an attending, you're hardly working on any type of other skills. Seen it. It's everywhere...
Which takes me to point #2, and I'm going to exaggerate a little, but not by much ("It's funny... because it's true.")...
Just like the AIGs of the world, these types of medical students/residents have a sense of entitlement. And just like AIG, they lack common sense, imagination, or the appropriate work ethic. They think they did their part by just getting into med school. Once there, they have been handed everything on a silver platter, starting with knowledge, in the form of nice, spiral-bound, bite-sized chunks, carefully tailored to not upset their sensitivities, coasting on the abuse and prejudice of IMGs they work along side (if you can call it that), knowing full well that they're not under the same amount of scrutiny. But I digress, and will probably derail this thread into another direction entirely. They simply lack any sort of world experience. They've spent their entire lives in academics, surrounded in part by dysfunctional attendings, overbearing nurses, patients who abuse them and the system, and the medical system in general. They don't know anything else, so have nothing to compare their experiences to. So they say to themselves, "I'm not going to be like that" or "This doesn't apply to me" or anything else that allows them to live in denial.
I too pray that a good chunk of the people I work with somehow fail along the line. They should simply not be allowed to practice medicine. Unfortunately, they pass those standardized tests, often with flying colors. But that does not good pathologists make.
Flames away.
Ps. ITT... OP good troll, is good.
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These are all better posts, this is a better discussion. I would ask people to please keep personal attacks and quips out of it - that doesn't help and it just hurts your argument.
To some of the earlier posts, I would add the following:
Someone asked why the "content" people (to paraphrase) aren't here posting. That's how internet forums work. The majority of posters will be pissed off about something (to varying degrees). Those that are content have less impetus to visit and contribute. Have you all seen the anesthesia forum? There are numerous threads about the CRNA issue, the maltreatment of new hires, the difficulty of finding an honorable group to work for, etc. Even the radiology and derm forums have more negative than positive posts, it seems sometimes.
The group I am joining is very transparent. I already know what every senior partner made last year (because they all made the same, basically). I also know precisely how long it takes to get there (and it is not 5 years) and what incremental increase there is until it equalizes. But I agree that this provides evidence of a weaker job market for many - they also seem to have a long lineup of potential candidates who want to work there. Is my group really in the top 5% of places to work?
I think Giovoni makes a good point, which others have made before, that expectations play a major role here. There is also a lot of overestimating the relative greatness of other fields. People use their own biases to evaluate any discussion. Healthcare as a profession is changing a lot.
Part of the problem with this discussion, and with every time this comes up, is that there is not a lot of compromise. The accusations of "naivete" and "innocence of youth" invariably come up as if to cut off all debate and discussion. You know what? You guys don't really have all the answers. I have spent the last few years asking real pathology graduates and attendings what they think of the field and their own job prospects. The answers I get are, in general, far more optimistic than I see here. It isn't all peaches and cream of course. Many people are disgruntled, many have issues that they complain about, but that is true of EVERY field. It may be relatively more true in pathology, I don't have great data on that. For some reason my comments that the job market is not great in general keep getting ignored. I agree there is an oversupply of pathologists - a lot of it stems from weaker training programs churning out graduates.
One of the most common statements about the job market I hear from graduates is, "I had heard the job market was really bad, but everything worked out great for me." At some point one has to admit that these aren't completely random isolated situations (just as those having trouble are also not random isolated situations). I agree that the disgruntled element is important to listen to. But I disagree that cutting off contact with national organizations is the way to make your point. Nor is raising hell the way to make your point.
And by the way, we can't call a 2004 study "out of date" while continuously citing something from 1999. That's a weak debate tactic.
+1
To some of the earlier posts, I would add the following:
Someone asked why the "content" people (to paraphrase) aren't here posting. That's how internet forums work. The majority of posters will be pissed off about something (to varying degrees). Those that are content have less impetus to visit and contribute. Have you all seen the anesthesia forum? There are numerous threads about the CRNA issue, the maltreatment of new hires, the difficulty of finding an honorable group to work for, etc. Even the radiology and derm forums have more negative than positive posts, it seems sometimes.
The group I am joining is very transparent. I already know what every senior partner made last year (because they all made the same, basically). I also know precisely how long it takes to get there (and it is not 5 years) and what incremental increase there is until it equalizes. But I agree that this provides evidence of a weaker job market for many - they also seem to have a long lineup of potential candidates who want to work there. Is my group really in the top 5% of places to work?
I think Giovoni makes a good point, which others have made before, that expectations play a major role here. There is also a lot of overestimating the relative greatness of other fields. People use their own biases to evaluate any discussion. Healthcare as a profession is changing a lot.
Part of the problem with this discussion, and with every time this comes up, is that there is not a lot of compromise. The accusations of "naivete" and "innocence of youth" invariably come up as if to cut off all debate and discussion. You know what? You guys don't really have all the answers. I have spent the last few years asking real pathology graduates and attendings what they think of the field and their own job prospects. The answers I get are, in general, far more optimistic than I see here. It isn't all peaches and cream of course. Many people are disgruntled, many have issues that they complain about, but that is true of EVERY field. It may be relatively more true in pathology, I don't have great data on that. For some reason my comments that the job market is not great in general keep getting ignored. I agree there is an oversupply of pathologists - a lot of it stems from weaker training programs churning out graduates.
One of the most common statements about the job market I hear from graduates is, "I had heard the job market was really bad, but everything worked out great for me." At some point one has to admit that these aren't completely random isolated situations (just as those having trouble are also not random isolated situations). I agree that the disgruntled element is important to listen to. But I disagree that cutting off contact with national organizations is the way to make your point. Nor is raising hell the way to make your point.
And by the way, we can't call a 2004 study "out of date" while continuously citing something from 1999. That's a weak debate tactic.
kluverB said:
+1
The situation where the senior partners make their salaries known to junior hires is unheard of. I doubt yaah they ever showed you their "books",If they did well you are at a very unique practice. If they said anything less than a million for a half decent practice they lied through their teeth.
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Just wondering, what is your standard of living in Canada making 350K? How much of it goes to taxes, cost of living ect What do you actually walk home with at the end of the year and what can you buy with that money?
5 years to partnership does sound a bit ridiculous. For those who enter med school late, they will be in their early 40s when they find out they can't make partnership. I was checking out other forums, and just happened to find an ophthalmologist posting about 1-2 years to partnership. That sounds far more reasonable. just my 2 cents...
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I agree, it's the whole senior partner to associate relationship that makes me sick in pathology. It's the vacation time, the money, and the manipulative uncertainty. It is unique to pathology and it is a function of the oversupply. Other fields are much much faster to partner. The two specific examples of peers that I personally know (one ortho, one rads) got instant partnership in the location of their choosing.
There are only two things you and me can do to change it: 1) don't take a job when you get a whiff of a rat during your interview; 2) don't do the same when you are a partner (pay it forward).
There is an oversupply in the private practice market, but not in the academic market, which is where BU Pathology has probably got his sense of things (and why he looked for published articles to support his perspective - the exploited usually do not have a voice).
There are only two things you and me can do to change it: 1) don't take a job when you get a whiff of a rat during your interview; 2) don't do the same when you are a partner (pay it forward).
There is an oversupply in the private practice market, but not in the academic market, which is where BU Pathology has probably got his sense of things (and why he looked for published articles to support his perspective - the exploited usually do not have a voice).
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so private practice pathologists at only half decent practices should be making a million $ a year?
I think this is quite delusional...
name another specialty of medicine where physicians at half decent practices pull in a million per year. it doesnt happen anywhere... maybe the top spine surgeon or something like that but not all physicians at half way decent practices. this tread is absurd
I think raider was referring to senior partners in a successful pathology practice.
I hate to break it to you, but you have no idea--truly, no idea--the kind of bucks an exploitive pathology practice can rake in for senior staff. Even many (rapidly-vanishing) non-exploitive practices, I am lucky and fortunate to say.
But as long as you set your sights for crap, that is what you shall receive.
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I don't know what stage in your training you are at, but either you are sheltered from real world medical economics or you are not very far along in training.
Many fields of medicine can easily make a million a year. For some specialties, it is more transparent. Pathology is a field where there are many 'hidden' sources of revenue...e.g. technical component type stuff, where a fairly substantial sum of money can be made and yet is not readily apparent to an outsider or even an associate. Even the more obvious revenue sources, like 88305 or immunos, can be very difficult for someone to quantitate. Throw in some molecular tests or lab fees or frozen section coverage and pretty soon you have a substantial chunk of change.
Partnership money is like fight club...no one talks about it. People will give you a range, but no one lets you have a look at their 1040.
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I don't care how smart you think you are.. you just revealed yourself as one of the single most dangerous physicians I've ever met. The absolute minimum requirement for competence in any field, especially in pathology when you actually ARE one of the most important part of a patient's care, is to know your limitations, actually believing you have none is no safer than putting a loaded gun into the hands of a 2 year old and just seeing what happens. If you and people with similar attitudes have a hard time getting work, or what you think you deserve.. then things are definitely not all bad.
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Who is ignoring? I am not ignoring anything. It's great that people are participating. I am not really sure why I respond to you, since you continually pick and choose what you choose to respond to, and you seem to enjoy "challenging" me and attempting to prove my naivete or ignorance. I'm not really going to play this game with you. It is not worth it. If you don't want to believe me, I can't help you. You're probably going to continue not believing me no matter what I say.
As far as how come "not one private practice guy" has anything good to say, well, it's not like we have an n of 50 here. For one thing, I already mentioned that the disgruntled tend to post more than the content. And like I said, I have met plenty of private practice people who do have good things to say (many don't have great things to say, but most of their cautionary notes are about avoiding unethical groups and learning to successfully establish yourself in practice as well as navigate the current health care environment). They don't post here, that doesn't mean their opinions are invalid. I'm sure you think, however, that they are lying to me or they are delusional, or more likely I am misreading them because I am so starry-eyed and childlike. Perhaps you guys have been unsuccessful about avoiding unethical groups. Perhaps you have made mistakes in your early career. Perhaps you were unprepared for your first real job. I have been trying my best to minimize these things as I go through my training, I would hope others would do the same. I do not anticipate a completely smooth ride with no difficulties ever. But I also do believe I have found a place to work where I will be treated as a partner and with respect. These places do exist, I assure you. I'm sorry I don't have your vast knowledge. We all can learn from those who have been there before - but part of being successful is learning who to listen to, who to trust, and who not to.
I do agree with you all totally that there are many exploitative practices out there. I have heard about them, I have talked to people who have dealt with them or worked for them. It is a travesty that these things happen. I hope that none of you are participating in perpetuating them, but somehow I wonder if when you get to that stage, you will avoid it. But just because there are some exploitative practices does not mean that 95% of practices are exploitative.
I'm sorry. I didn't realize we were in the presence of such greatness. Surely everything I have learned up to this point is irrelevant if you tell me different.
Ironic to find a grammatical error in the middle of your rant about how close to God you are. Careful, if your head gets any bigger it's going to hurt when someday you have to pull it out of your arse!
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i wasnt debating the potential for that kind of cash, just the fact that raider made it sound like all paths at HALF DECENT practices should be pulling in a mill a year...
but a i am stickin to my guns when i say this tread has devolved into the absurd...
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if are really as good as you say you are then why waste your precious time posting in the student doctor network??
Yaah,
I wish nothing ,but the best of luck for you in your professional life. However, I disagree strongly that the market situation in pathology is good.I think it needs much improvement before it can be termed "decent". I think residency programs should quit training inadequate/uninterested people and not use them as warm bodies to gross and do scut work. They should only take people who show real aptitude and interest. Once there are few and very talented pathologists the "oldies" will think twice before doing their evilness and new hires will have real bargaining power.
I wish nothing ,but the best of luck for you in your professional life. However, I disagree strongly that the market situation in pathology is good.I think it needs much improvement before it can be termed "decent". I think residency programs should quit training inadequate/uninterested people and not use them as warm bodies to gross and do scut work. They should only take people who show real aptitude and interest. Once there are few and very talented pathologists the "oldies" will think twice before doing their evilness and new hires will have real bargaining power.
Podstan "just hang tight for a couple of years. I was certainly mediocre at best in 1st year histology and never even considered pathology as a career. I didn't particularly enjoy looking at normal tissue under the microscope, but after 2nd year pathology when diseases were introduced and things came together, I was hooked."
Dude, we are on the opposite sides of the spectrum ( I excelled in histology and still love looking at normal tissue under the scope to see if I can find something out of the ordinary) and I will leave it at that.
Dude, we are on the opposite sides of the spectrum ( I excelled in histology and still love looking at normal tissue under the scope to see if I can find something out of the ordinary) and I will leave it at that.
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All I have ever said is that it is decent for many applicants, but not for all. Because it is. If a lot of people are telling me it is decent, I'm not going to tell all of them they are wrong. Just like if a lot of people tell me it's bad, I'm not going to tell them they're all wrong.
I agree very strongly with that point. Unfortunately I think programs depend too much on resident participation. Many would be able to function just fine without residents, but it is hard, once you get residents involved, to function with a partial load. Some have the cache to not have to compromise too much, others don't. Personally, I think the ACGME or whoever accredits residency program is a bit too lenient in deciding who to allow to continue training residents. They have so many rules and regulations, so many hoops to jump through, and so many criteria to fulfill, yet strangely every program seems to manage to fulfill them adequately.
It's like HESC previously stated, if you're so hot and obviously "THE SINGLE MOST IMPORTANT PHYSICIAN IN THE HOSPITAL", then why are you on SDN? And what's more, why are you spending the time to go back and read previous posts by a medical student and respond personally. Seriously, you're not fooling anyone, so I reiterate by saying pull your head out! Hang in there sport, I'm sure mama's proud and one of these days they'll descend and you'll be a real boy!
"I was top of the class, excellent USMLE (267, 262) score and wanted to be able to be the person whom you went to when you did not know what it was? I trained at the best places ,with the best people and when you are at the scope with me (no matter who you are and no matter how many bs papers you have written) I will be the person who gets the right diagnosis first"
That's cute. Anyone can anonymously say "I was top of the class and scored 267 on USMLE"...all we can tell from that is that you're a pompous SOB, and as many have stated, board scores and grades don't make the pathologist. Don't get me wrong, I'm not downplaying scores/grades, but without communication skills, etc. you're no better than many of the IMG's that are forced to scramble.
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lol!!
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Does somone need a blanket and a warm glass of milk to calm their nerves?
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I AM the GreaTEST PatholoGIST that EVER EXISTS!
I CHAllENGE ANYone TO a UNknoWN Slidez DUEL!
I CHAllENGE ANYone TO a UNknoWN Slidez DUEL!
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Words to live by.
Raider I hope you will continue to post here. Without seasoned folks like you this forum will die. Don't mind the haterz.
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This is the single most entertaining post that I've seen on SDN. Raider please don't quit posting here, man seriously.
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Word. Raider, I resonate with everything you say. Though I'm at the beginning of things, I see that there is a serious problem with "hedging" on your decisions. Nothing more to add other than you have a young alpha here paying close attention to your wisdom and hopes that you stick around.
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What? Seriously? If you're going to ask him out to dinner or something, go on and do it Betty!
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If you are serious about this, contact ALEXA BOER KIMBALL --- she is a dermatologist at Harvard who studies the dermatology workforce as her primary research interest. She may be able to give you ideas on how to get started.
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I'd rather ask yo mamma to dinner
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Interesting, I assume you think you're a Howard Roark. And yet instead of doing your job without assurances from colleagues and younger trainees that you're the greatest thing since sliced bread you're here telling us all how magnificent you are. If you really were anything like Roark you'd never be on this board. You'd be working with all your time regardless of what's happening in pathology and regardless of what other people think of your skills/opinions. If you really are making bank, and really fancy yourself a Roark then you have no need of the rest of pathology to change, you are practicing pathology paraphrasing Roark 'without anyone to stop you.' You say you trained with the pathology equivalent of Henry Cameron and now should be off taking over the world. Instead you're here proclaiming your greatness, and dolling out advice on a job market that, since you're the pathologic manifestation of Howard Roark is working perfectly for you. If you really are a Roark and advocating the rest of us becoming him as well we don't need a path shown and we don't need mediocre pathologists kept out of the profession through closing down programs, the Roarks will rise and the Keatings will fall and according to Rand that's exactly how it should be. We should all be finding our own way without regard to you and without your advice since if any of us take it, according to Roark's thinking, we would be tarnishing our own self reliance.
Roark never claimed to always be right, he never needed to claim that, because his self reliance and absolute certainty of his creative goals didn't need outside validation. He just worked, built, created and didn't compromise on his creations. And yet here you are, using a text that you clearly don't understand to try to get all of us to come to your side.. because you somehow need those of us who agree with you on your side.
Roark destroyed the work bastardized by Keating not because he thought it was wrong... but because it wasn't ALL his work. If you were actually reasonable enough to have a discussion of whether a pathology diagnosis is a personal sacred sacrament which is sullied and made somehow dirty by consulting other colleagues in cases that are challenging (which I realize is moot since you believe no slide from any situation is a challenge to you) it would probably be an interesting discussion. I think it's a bit disingenuous to hold up a fictional character meant to be an absolute philosophical archetype as an actual model to practice pathology.
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She's way too hot for you, my friend. Unfortunately she's way out of your league so you should stick to sucking up to anonymous narcissistic internet posters like Raider. Take luck!
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This is beautiful analysis, your former English or literature professor would be proud of both your recall of the book and the message it conveyed. As the English would say, your comments were "spot on". While I have never really enjoyed Ayn Rand (it is difficult to enjoy a novel that. . . goes. . . on. . . forever) I may have to read her again. Then again, someone who wrote "The Virtue of Selfishness" may be too self-centered to provide any insight.
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Just as an aside, it's always bothered me that people like to use quotes from random dead people as if said ancient person was the ultimate authority on the subject at hand.
So strange. In all likelihood Mr. Swift though very highly of himself, to the point of annoyance, and he had to come up with a reason why people really didn't like him. And, ah ha! He comes up with "I'm genius". 
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Either you are a troll or the most pompous a** ever in pathology. Oh, and you are a crappy pathologist as well. If you think that you figured everything out by the end of residency/fellowship, then you are such a bad pathologist that you don't even have an inkling as to what you don't know.
Go ahead and keep referencing Ayn Rand if it makes you feel better.
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You seem to have more than enough time to answer each attach personally and are doing a great job of it, but then again as the best pathologist in the world I would expect no less.
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Since a moderator was called on to intervene...
The thread shows signs of degenerating outside of the realm of any useful discussion, but nothing out of the ordinary workings of the forum has occurred. raider, I think you will find that if you stop responding, the "personal attacks" will magically disappear as the thread falls off the front page.
As usual, us mods would like to call your attention to the Report Post function (the triangular red/white icon under each poster's name) if you are not already aware of it.
The thread shows signs of degenerating outside of the realm of any useful discussion, but nothing out of the ordinary workings of the forum has occurred. raider, I think you will find that if you stop responding, the "personal attacks" will magically disappear as the thread falls off the front page.
As usual, us mods would like to call your attention to the Report Post function (the triangular red/white icon under each poster's name) if you are not already aware of it.
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BTW, you are the same troll who started this asinine thread
:http://forums.studentdoctor.net/showthread.php?p=5798711#post5798711
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I don't think anything here has crossed the line, when you consider the entire thread in context. I would second what deschutes said.
