Does being a psychiatrist change you?

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Ludwig2000

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Of course, technically it could be argued that every experience we have, as plastic-brained yumans, changes us. But for the purposes of discussion, what do you guys make of the suggestion that there is something about Psychiatry in particular, that changes a person? To look behind the curtain of human experience, to unmask the facades of normality. To see the arbitrary chemical substrates of mood and experience that change capriciously with pharmaceuticals. To witness the cruelties of transgenerational traumas, that like an Oedipal curse, regenerate into reality precisely because people attempt to escape them.

Me? I think it’s a buncha BS, I’ve always been this way

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I think it allows me to identify maladaptive behaviors and tendencies in others that I once considered "normal"...if that makes sense. I can't help but see it everywhere now; in friends, family, significant other, etc. The hard part is keeping my mouth shut and not point it out haha.
 
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I think it allows me to identify maladaptive behaviors and tendencies in others that I once considered "normal"...if that makes sense. I can't help but see it everywhere now; in friends, family, significant other, etc. The hard part is keeping my mouth shut and not point it out haha.
“zomg are you psychoanalyzing me right now” confirmed
 
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I found residency training to be pretty impactful. The depth of my understanding of how hard life can be for a human has certainly reinforced and broadened my overall compassion for others regardless of what their particular struggle is. I contrast this with my wife's experience in residency as a surgeon, and it certainly changed her differently than it changed me. I also (appropriately) got knocked down a peg and score lower on narcissism inventories now.

During my child training, seeing the horror inflicted upon children somehow made me more interested in doing anything I can to care for them rather than sour me to human existence. From what I've heard from others, I may be in a minority with my response to this all. I see some positive societal shifts with less acceptance around child abuse and hope to see a lot more of that before my career is over.
 
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Being a physician has changed me, and learning more about psychology and philosophy has changed me.

Psychiatry, it's self, has been underwhelming.
 
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My ability to empathize with others has only been strengthened, including other specialties. Others are often terrified at the perceived power a psychiatrist holds, when the reality is far less interesting.

I recognize behavioral patterns quickly in others, but the real power comes from letting go of that.
 
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I think it allows me to identify maladaptive behaviors and tendencies in others that I once considered "normal"...if that makes sense. I can't help but see it everywhere now; in friends, family, significant other, etc. The hard part is keeping my mouth shut and not point it out haha.

This, SO much. It's not even conscious psychoanalyzing, it's just a lot easier to recognize various personality traits, signs of anxiety, etc. It doesn't help that I have a specific interest in personality disorders and spend a lot of time actively looking for those traits.

Unfortunately, I think I fall more in the opposite area of Merovinge. I certainly have more awareness and empathy for the horrible things some people have been through and still go through and I'm more grateful for my life in general. At the same time, I'm a lot less empathetic and have less tolerance for complaints about minor stressors. It may be an effect of having my outpatient year of residency during the first year of the pandemic, but I'm actually a less patient person than I used to be.
 
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Definitely.
You gain so many people and listening skills, and an ability to connect with people. There's also a greater understanding of yourself. More empathy towards yourself and other people. The effects are tangible on all aspects of your life.

It is also very useful in identifying "difficult" traits in other people and running away when you sense the red flags.
And yes, I AM "psychoanalyzing" my dates, which made it a lot easier to save time for both of us when needed.

At the same time, I'm a lot less empathetic and have less tolerance for complaints about minor stressors. It may be an effect of having my outpatient year of residency during the first year of the pandemic, but I'm actually a less patient person than I used to be.

I am not sure if this is about empathy or patience, but sometimes you get a sense what all of this is heading to and hence perhaps the low tolerance that comes with that.
 
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I am not sure if this is about empathy or patience, but sometimes you get a sense what all of this is heading to and hence perhaps the low tolerance that comes with that.

I get what you're saying, but I am legitimately less patient with people outside of patients and honestly just don't care about a lot of the smaller things that I used to. On the positive side of that, it has made me a more assertive person which has been very helpful as I definitely had a problem saying no to others when I was younger.

I will admit that there is likely a major confounding variable, as I became a parent in my first month of residency which I'm sure has also played a significant role in those changes.
 
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Yes, it did. Some of my observations...

First that I find it easy to be silent. I was always a chatterbox and sometimes I still am. But at some point in my training I realized I had learned how to be silent. I do not need to fill silence with words to soothe anxiety or awkwardness. I enjoy just being with other people and not talking more than I used to.

Second, I'm not sure if this was psychiatry or the high volume, high stress aspects of my residency program. My reactivity decreased profoundly. This my family noticed during some recent times of loss. Somewhere along the way, through call shifts and therapy training, I just... became far more able to just go with the flow in many situations. I probably would have stroked out midway through pgy2 year if I didn't break through to some previously unknown inner source of equanimity.
 
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Having a kid trivializes a lot of life's b********
Lol but also at the same time, certain things that were once trivial take on outsized importance. Like you find yourself thanking God for sparing your sanity because the child finally had that big poo, or like, you find yourself trying to move heaven and Earth to find that one stuffie or lovie they lost in the house.

Which in a way, the power these little things hold itself simplifies your life and makes you care less about other small ****.

But yeah also I find myself caring less about some things, like, I'm sorry I can't help you, an adult, adult your life rn, I have a stuffie to find!
 
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Lol but also at the same time, certain things that were once trivial take on outsized importance. Like you find yourself thanking God for sparing your sanity because the child finally had that big poo, or like, you find yourself trying to move heaven and Earth to find that one stuffie or lovie they lost in the house.

Which in a way, the power these little things hold itself simplifies your life and makes you care less about other small ****.

But yeah also I find myself caring less about some things, like, I'm sorry I can't help you, an adult, adult your life rn, I have a stuffie to find!
One of my favorite lines ever! Captures an essential and important truth about our work so well. When that stance is conveyed to patients, they often start getting their stuff together or they go find someone else who will feel sorry for them. Either way, it’s a win.
 
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I think it may have made me a bit more cynical about the world in general, given that I spend so much of my time immersed in settings where trauma and the general cruelty and indifference of humans toward one another is constantly at the fore. It has also made it hard to take small things about life seriously. I used to stress about everything and now I'm just like, eh, it will probably be fine, most things don't matter anyway. I think these are common responses of people who deal with these sorts of issues on a regular basis though, and aren't unique to psychiatry.

Perhaps what is more psych related is my tendency to be rather cut and dry with interpersonal conflict. I just don't have patience for it anymore. I used to be rather conflict-averse and would twiddle my thumbs and avoid difficult conversions for weeks or months. Now I deal with things rather proactively and immediately and it has really helped me in either maintaining healthy interpersonal relationships or ending those that are not healthy.
 
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Second, I'm not sure if this was psychiatry or the high volume, high stress aspects of my residency program. My reactivity decreased profoundly. This my family noticed during some recent times of loss. Somewhere along the way, through call shifts and therapy training, I just... became far more able to just go with the flow in many situations. I probably would have stroked out midway through pgy2 year if I didn't break through to some previously unknown inner source of equanimity.
Oh absolutely this. After all the threats of physical/sexual violence, being barricaded in a room by in irate family member, threats to my family (that they had no way of knowing mind you), I am so much less reactive now. That's a blessing for me but certainly is a trade off. I know at times I almost come off a bit cold despite being born a pretty bubbly and overly emotionally reactive person.
 
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I think it's changed me less than it hasn't, if that helps.
 
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Could you expand on this? In what ways has it been underwhelming

Gladly. First, I am artificially separating out the psychological stuff - learning about boundaries, CBT techniques with moment-to-moment real life application, ect.

Most of all I am putting psychodynamic insights aside, which has been a huge avenue of personal growth and change that I credit more to the field of psychology than psychiatry.

I guess I might have better said that psychopharmacology, which I was so excited about as a medical student, has had little impact on me save disenchantment. It's the psychological side if things that have left me a changed person.
 
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Oh absolutely this. After all the threats of physical/sexual violence, being barricaded in a room by in irate family member, threats to my family (that they had no way of knowing mind you), I am so much less reactive now. That's a blessing for me but certainly is a trade off. I know at times I almost come off a bit cold despite being born a pretty bubbly and overly emotionally reactive person.
It doesn't even phase me at this point, life is way too short to live in fear. That's probably one big positive change most people will get from the field- it really builds a sense of assertiveness in the face of difficult or even terrifying situations. At this point if someone broke into my house I'd probably just be like
reaction-shame.gif
 
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I guess I might have better said that psychopharmacology, which I was so excited about as a medical student, has had little impact on me save disenchantment. It's the psychological side if things that have left me a changed person.

Interesting, in terms of efficacy and/or availability of treatments?
 
Interesting, in terms of efficacy and/or availability of treatments?
I don't mean to criticize the psychopharmacologic project. I only mean to say applying treatments with an effect size if 0.3 has not been a soul-shaking experience for me.
 
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I don't mean to criticize the psychopharmacologic project. I only mean to say applying treatments with an effect size if 0.3 has not been a soul-shaking experience for me.

True for antidepressants but I’m certainly impressed by our juggernauts i.e lithium and clozapine. And even the other antipsychotics at time.
Perhaps it’s not a coincidence that the worse the side effect profile the more impressive our drugs seem to work.

But in general I agree what I find challenging, rewarding and had the most impact outside of clinical practice has not been “pick the drug” part.
 
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Of course, technically it could be argued that every experience we have, as plastic-brained yumans, changes us. But for the purposes of discussion, what do you guys make of the suggestion that there is something about Psychiatry in particular, that changes a person? To look behind the curtain of human experience, to unmask the facades of normality. To see the arbitrary chemical substrates of mood and experience that change capriciously with pharmaceuticals. To witness the cruelties of transgenerational traumas, that like an Oedipal curse, regenerate into reality precisely because people attempt to escape them.

Me? I think it’s a buncha BS, I’ve always been this way
I am learning to be more ok with people disliking me and disagreeing with me. I have a “fawn” response due to a history of small t trauma, so I’ve always wanted people to like me and for everyone to agree because it felt “safer.” Well, if we pleased every patient lots of patients would be dead.
 
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Psychiatric training equipped me with tools for interpersonal interaction that have really allowed me to optimize my relationships with others. It turned out that techniques that I learned as therapy tools - positive reinforcement, empathetic reflection, Socratic questioning, rolling with resistance, sitting with open hands, etc - work really really well in regular life too. I'm a way better parent, spouse, and coworker than I would have been without these tools.
 
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I get what you're saying, but I am legitimately less patient with people outside of patients
I'm more on this end of things, as well. Patients (and other administrative/clinical headaches) definitely drain my patience reserve over the course of the day and, by the time I'm done, I'm not particularly interested in letting people waste my time.
 
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Lol but also at the same time, certain things that were once trivial take on outsized importance. Like you find yourself thanking God for sparing your sanity because the child finally had that big poo, or like, you find yourself trying to move heaven and Earth to find that one stuffie or lovie they lost in the house.

Which in a way, the power these little things hold itself simplifies your life and makes you care less about other small ****.

But yeah also I find myself caring less about some things, like, I'm sorry I can't help you, an adult, adult your life rn, I have a stuffie to find!
And you start to realize why those things really aren't so "trivial" to all of those other folks we used to roll our eyes at...

I'm more on this end of things, as well. Patients (and other administrative/clinical headaches) definitely drain my patience reserve over the course of the day and, by the time I'm done, I'm not particularly interested in letting people waste my time.
I think the pandemic has done more than psychiatry per se to change this in me. My BS tolerance is infinitesimal, and my threshold for letting an F-bomb fly has decayed to the Roy Kent level.
Ted Lasso Talking About Me GIF by Apple TV+
 
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3 years into attendinghood I oddly enough feel both more cynical and optimistic.
 
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I would like to say of course not! Why would being a psychiatrist change me? In reality, after 40 or plus years of being a psychiatrist, it is a real part of my identity. I'm not sure I wish this were not true (pardon the double negative). It has become who I am and my path in life includes all experiences including being a psychiatrist. There are probably other things I could be less proud of, but I will own being a psychiatrist with pleasure. I may have probably done worse if you ask my wife, how ever, I'm not sure what this would look like. I may still do better, but I'm not ashamed of this part of my existence.

All of you MS4s within my thousand of applications, defy your parents with tenacious authority of your goals. Do what your heart needs to do or you will always regret it. Become a psychiatrist if you want to. You have already satisfied your family by getting into medical school. I'm not naïve about these things. I have been there and did this already. You only have one life to mess up, so this is your last chance to be the rebel that is never any good. This unconventional decision might be the best one you can ever imagine. The reading is better and the work is interesting and will always be unexpected. This is much better than memorizing algorithms and antibiotic spectrums. I'm an unabashed fan of psychiatry.

Expand your mind and do what you want to. If you choose the job you want to do , you will never have to work. I have been happy for what will soon be half a century and it is because psychiatry rocks. If you don't have the guts to do this, enjoy family medicine. Psychiatry is really the way to go and the economics say so. It isn't an acquired taste, if you don't like it don't go here. If you can do it and like it, don't worry about your troglodyte professors who bad mouth psychiatry. Do what your heart tells you to do. Individuate enough to be selfish and make this decision in a centric manor. Medical students tend to have difficulty individuating compared to the mean of young adults. They are uncomfortable doing anything that could be looked at as acting out, what ever that is measured by. I say go for it and get into psychiatry. You will not regret it for nearly as long as your parents might. If you can tolerate this, or even better, enjoy this, psychiatry might be for you.
 
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I think the pandemic has done more than psychiatry per se to change this in me.
I think this is also another huge confounding factor for me. Most of my outpatient year was during the height of the pandemic, and my experience was very different from those in the classes before and even after me. It definitely played a role in the types of jobs I was/am willing to do and idk that I can ever really look at outpatient the same again.

It also made it extremely obvious how terrible people in general are at coping to major change, even when they had no prior major mental health issues. I already found treating anxiety as the primary problem burdensome, but after outpatient year during COVID I have become somewhat apathetic towards anxiety in general. Now, I am much less likely be the person that listens to all of someone's worries or acts as the reassuring figure than I used to be.
 
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Outpatient psychiatry is where most of the work is and we have a definite lost generation in training. I you were able to measure success in mental health treatment and use a denominator that would show benefit over effort, outpatient would win. Our lack of satisfaction in realizing this is a reflection of our bias. Inpatients improve the most, but most of impairment isn't that devastating.
 
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On a personal level, our work does create some insight into maladaptive defenses in others and ourselves.

But beyond that, every interaction of significance should definitely change you and the other party to the dyad. This is something I've been cognizant with regard to therapy, but it applies to any job where there is significant contact with people. By significant contact, I mean regular contact with swaths of the public where you are continuously exposed to the spectrum of the good, bad, and the ugly of humanity.

If your work does not change you, you are not growing and evolving, just phoning it in. In our field, that likely means hitting the refill button several times an hour as if manning the Burger King drive thru or online NP clinic, or putting everyone on the ward on Haldol.

I feel the challenge is to be aware of the negative changes in order to either weed them out or reincorporate them into positive changes.
 
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3 years into attendinghood I oddly enough feel both more cynical and optimistic.

Your comment rang true with me, though I would say "tougher" or "more integrated my shadow and also more receptive to Jungian psychobable," rather than cynical.

Out of curiosity, is cynical the term you would stick with?
 
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Gladly. First, I am artificially separating out the psychological stuff - learning about boundaries, CBT techniques with moment-to-moment real life application, ect.

Most of all I am putting psychodynamic insights aside, which has been a huge avenue of personal growth and change that I credit more to the field of psychology than psychiatry.

I guess I might have better said that psychopharmacology, which I was so excited about as a medical student, has had little impact on me save disenchantment. It's the psychological side if things that have left me a changed person.

I find the opposite. Many contributions credited to "psychology" are actually from some of the great psychiatrists. Those contributions are quite useful in clinical psychiatry.

If you are disappointed at the effect size of psychotropics, it's likely a function of a less severe/personality patient population. Because carpet bombing certain psychiatric conditions with FGAs has a very large effect size.
 
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I would like to say of course not! Why would being a psychiatrist change me? In reality, after 40 or plus years of being a psychiatrist, it is a real part of my identity. I'm not sure I wish this were not true (pardon the double negative). It has become who I am and my path in life includes all experiences including being a psychiatrist. There are probably other things I could be less proud of, but I will own being a psychiatrist with pleasure. I may have probably done worse if you ask my wife, how ever, I'm not sure what this would look like. I may still do better, but I'm not ashamed of this part of my existence.

All of you MS4s within my thousand of applications, defy your parents with tenacious authority of your goals. Do what your heart needs to do or you will always regret it. Become a psychiatrist if you want to. You have already satisfied your family by getting into medical school. I'm not naïve about these things. I have been there and did this already. You only have one life to mess up, so this is your last chance to be the rebel that is never any good. This unconventional decision might be the best one you can ever imagine. The reading is better and the work is interesting and will always be unexpected. This is much better than memorizing algorithms and antibiotic spectrums. I'm an unabashed fan of psychiatry.

Expand your mind and do what you want to. If you choose the job you want to do , you will never have to work. I have been happy for what will soon be half a century and it is because psychiatry rocks. If you don't have the guts to do this, enjoy family medicine. Psychiatry is really the way to go and the economics say so. It isn't an acquired taste, if you don't like it don't go here. If you can do it and like it, don't worry about your troglodyte professors who bad mouth psychiatry. Do what your heart tells you to do. Individuate enough to be selfish and make this decision in a centric manor. Medical students tend to have difficulty individuating compared to the mean of young adults. They are uncomfortable doing anything that could be looked at as acting out, what ever that is measured by. I say go for it and get into psychiatry. You will not regret it for nearly as long as your parents might. If you can tolerate this, or even better, enjoy this, psychiatry might be for you.
What do you say to the medical student who could be described as recalcitrant? The bell curve is wide. Asking for a friend.
 
Becoming a psychiatrist specifically hasn't changed me a ton, not nearly to the same degree as becoming a doctor. I would say that medicine and intern year changed me the most, turning me into an impatient person towards everyone outside of the clinic room. Since then I lament having to entertain or socialize with people, and want to get to the part where we simply understand each other or find that we don't like each other and there's no point - psychiatry training has made it faster for me to get to that point, which probably has its pros and cons.

This bothers me the most with my interactions with family. I am not sure if I had more external impatience with family in the past, but I can say the internal impatience amplified following the stress of med school and intern year. It also seemed to ruin much of my social skills and confidence as well, but these have at least gradually come back.

All the other stuff you guys are mentioning (e.g. not caring what people think, cutting others slack, not being bothered by small things as much) I got that from aging into my 20s prior to medicine. The benefits of being career changer/non-trad.

The pandemic sucked though. Training during the pandemic was terrible, especially being on inpatient medicine, critical care, and EM rotations. It sucked. I have not recovered, and I don't know when I will. To be fair having more children also happened around that time, so who's to say what's burning me out more.

As an attending, I find it all a bit anticlimactic. The goals I had even leaving residency seem to be much harder to accomplish, adjusting to new people, personalities and part of the country is draining, and having young children and elderly parents to take care of fills any waking moment not spent at work. I never had any expectations for the "marvels" of psychopharm or the "insight" of psychology, so for me I was pleasantly surprised by some of it in training and never had to grapple with the disappointment that others have experienced.

...
During my child training, seeing the horror inflicted upon children somehow made me more interested in doing anything I can to care for them rather than sour me to human existence. From what I've heard from others, I may be in a minority with my response to this all. I see some positive societal shifts with less acceptance around child abuse and hope to see a lot more of that before my career is over.

So interestingly my child psych experiences in med school overlapped very much with this and its mainly why I chose my current career path. It also taught me that the personal psychological anguish that I feared I would experience in psychiatry wasn't nearly as bad as I thought, even when faced with the horror of children with immense trauma.

At the same time, I'm a lot less empathetic and have less tolerance for complaints about minor stressors. It may be an effect of having my outpatient year of residency during the first year of the pandemic, but I'm actually a less patient person than I used to be.

It didn't bother me as much as you (maybe because outpatient year was a welcome break from the chaos of medicine, EM, and ICU that I was coming from during the early days of the pandemic), but I will say the pandemic certainly exposed the lack of tolerance to change in many people. A lot of people seemed to have very limited healthy coping mechanisms for mild to moderate stressors, and nothing seemed to exemplify that more than the pandemic. To be fair, I also think that in medicine we are hammered to be more dynamic and accommodate to having less control of the environment around us (maybe a byproduct of MS3-4) so it may just be a lot more obvious to us.
 
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I think when you see a ton of sick people in general, in any specialty, it can be really hard to see healthy people appear to struggle and offer genuine empathy. I guess what works for me is to realize we're all at different levels in life and a patient's particular place may be distressing to them even if it isn't to someone else.

It really helps me see how a heart attack to one person could be as debilitating as a med school exam to another, even if the thought is preposterous.
 
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More mindful to not project my own issues to others, generally more mindful/empathic me thinks
 
A lot of people seemed to have very limited healthy coping mechanisms for mild to moderate stressors, and nothing seemed to exemplify that more than the pandemic.
I'm imagining the many patients I've seen since residency (Trump era) and especially since the Pandemic whose symptoms are primarily how overwhelmed/anxious they get from just watching mainstream news...
 
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I'm imagining the many patients I've seen since residency (Trump era) and especially since the Pandemic whose symptoms are primarily how overwhelmed/anxious they get from just watching mainstream news...

I think the 24/7 headlines designed to snag attention catastrophizing everything news cycle is one of the worst things to happen to society.
 
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I think the 24/7 headlines designed to snag attention catastrophizing everything news cycle is one of the worst things to happen to society.
How bad is it?

Read ahead to find out.
 
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Another thing I thought of: I really appreciate how psychiatry taught me to recognize when people are trying to manipulate me. Of course, actually not falling victim to that manipulation is still a work in progress.
 
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This psychiatrist thought they would never change...until they saw this...!

News at 11.
20 things you should grill your psychiatrist about... And 20 things they'll never tell you (and you'll never guess why)!
 
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I'm imagining the many patients I've seen since residency (Trump era) and especially since the Pandemic whose symptoms are primarily how overwhelmed/anxious they get from just watching mainstream news...

This was huge to me and would intermittently just kill my faith in humanity. The level of intolerance towards others I encountered from patients during outpatient year was itself depressing, even from people who were previously "healthy". I found myself fairly dismayed at how often I'd hear people (from all political sides) expressing hatred or disgust towards others just because of a single view or affiliation, and I was noticing these views and hearing these statements outside the office much more. I'm sure this was amplified by the pandemic, but I can relate to Hallowman in the sense that I just find myself caring less about socialization as politics has become a primary (and for some people only) topic of conversation in those I've interacted with. I actually ended up liking the CMHC we worked at far more than our VA or academic center clinics as those individuals actually had problems that couldn't be resolved by just turning off the 5 o'clock news.
 
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I agree with those who felt that the pandemic and/or med school changed them more than psych training. During the pandemic, I was working in the hospital; aside from going to work, I isolated from everyone for about 12 months (mostly out of fear that I would give my loved ones COVID while in a pre or asymptomatic state of infection) and it was very, very depressing. I was not going to compromise on isolating myself, and I almost left residency. I realized how meaningful it was to me (and I'm guessing to other people) to see loved ones in person, and the importance of physical touch - even something as simple as a handshake. It helped me realize how much situational factors can contribute to depressive symptoms.
Now I value spending time with my family more and I find myself to be MORE patient with them because I realize that I have a limited time with them, any of us could die on any given day, and I need to cherish them.
I feel that medical school made me an infinitely more anxious and less fun person (though perhaps this was just aging). Psychiatry has maybe made me a little more sad, because I realized how prevalent antisocial and narcissistic tendencies are, and how these personality disordered people have abused others and ruined people's lives. Also I realized that you can't really trust people in general.
 
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Changed me tremendously.

I see myself as more of my job than I am the mere human being I was before the job. In some ways this made me greater. In other ways lesser. Great: I'm a respectable physician, I do good work for the community, it pays well and doing something I believe in. This greater-vs-lesser isn't 50-50. IT's way more pros than cons.
Less: Cause I take the job very seriously I let a lot of other things that would make me feel content fall by the wayside. I have to often times remind myself I'm just a human being and need to do the human stuff.

E.g. If I take time off to enjoy myself I feel bad that I don't treat people. I think of the people I could've helped that I didn't help.
It's not completely bad cause I do enjoy the work, but if it's only work I do sometimes feel my soul suffer.

The job consumes me but at the same time I'm so lucky. Very few people could have a job that so positively impact so many people, pays well, and is so enjoyable (or consuming).

Sometimes in the Batman comics they mention that Bruce Wayne doesn't call himself Bruce in his head, he calls himself Batman cause he thinks he's more that than human. This can be good or bad depending on how you see it. Certainly bad if the person's working too hard.
 
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