"Doctors make $50,000 to $150,000 for a few hours of work"

[naus]

Here's a New York Times commentator today getting the highest number of recommendations on an article about lowering health care costs:

http://opinionator.blogs.nytimes.com/2011/08/02/slashing-the-price-of-health-with-common-sense/

#3: "I am amazed that no one talks about reducing the cost of health care by paying surgeons and other specialists a reasonable amount for their work. Granted physicians are highly skilled and intelligent people, but lets get real. No one deserves to be paid $50,000 or $100,000 for a few hours of work . . . even for 8 hours of work on a demanding operation. Plus, the exorbitant costs of medical testing and special procedures is ridiculous. When we look at the itemized hospital bills and see how much the various services cost, it is legalized robbery. The medical professionals and insurance companies work in cahoots to rip off the patients and the public."​

Unbelievable. Just unbelievable. We are really failing in educating our patients about the economics of health care and how much we actually get paid for the hours we put in. We should also have cleaner bills in the future, instead of being forced to jack up our bill just so that we will be reimbursed 20% of it.

---

Members don't see this ad.

 

[cbrons]

”

 

[SMCmedicine]

Where do these numbers come from? 50-100k for a few hours of work. They must be basing it on some previous situation.

 

[womp]

Where do these numbers come from? 50-100k for a few hours of work. They must be basing it on some previous situation.

Probably the total bill before negotiated rates and way before the surgeon's cut.

 

[rollelephants]

The point of these posts is that public opinion can screw with your livelihood if you keep sticking your head in the sand. Physicians have been far too aloof about these things, not helped by specialization, and it's beginning to really hurt the profession.

Of course most patients don't hate us. But if there's a sizeable contingency that feels you're making $50k every two hours, and the louder they get, then when the time comes to cut Medicare reimbursement to providers, fewer people are going to shed a tear.

 

[hrandani]

If nothing else, doctors need to start being a lot more involved in billing and costs. It's not what any of us signed up for, but it's a massive part of the healthcare problem. Sending someone out for lab work / MRI and then they find out that their insurance no longer covers it, and they are on the hook for a few grand is an enormous, horrific problem for 90% of patients.

This is one of the reasons why I support government health care, while I doubt it will be all roses for physicians, at least patients would always know what costs will / won't be covered in advance. I would trade a chunk of income for not having to deal with a dozen insurance companies, as well.

 

[ArcGurren]

The point of these posts is that public opinion can screw with your livelihood if you keep sticking your head in the sand. Physicians have been far too aloof about these things, not helped by specialization, and it's beginning to really hurt the profession.

Of course most patients don't hate us. But if there's a sizeable contingency that feels you're making $50k every two hours, and the louder they get, then when the time comes to cut Medicare reimbursement to providers, fewer people are going to shed a tear.

I agree, despite explaining very patiently and calmly to numerous people that I've come across, people still seem to believe that your average family doc makes 10,000 dollars a week off of their office visits and that surgeons are heavily overpaid for their 14 hour workdays and numerous surgeries. Welcome to the court of public opinion where the stupid and uneducated have a much bigger voice than they should.

 

[Rollo]

Alas, NY Times has proved something more ridiculous than the paper itself: its readers!

 

[deleted393595]

Welcome to the court of public opinion where the stupid and uneducated have a much bigger voice than they should.

A wise man once told me something very profound a long time ago: "Two things are infinite. The universe ... and human stupidity."

 

[DrBowtie]

If nothing else, doctors need to start being a lot more involved in billing and costs. It's not what any of us signed up for, but it's a massive part of the healthcare problem. Sending someone out for lab work / MRI and then they find out that their insurance no longer covers it, and they are on the hook for a few grand is an enormous, horrific problem for 90% of patients.

This is one of the reasons why I support government health care, while I doubt it will be all roses for physicians, at least patients would always know what costs will / won't be covered in advance. I would trade a chunk of income for not having to deal with a dozen insurance companies, as well.

You know the patient could......call their insurer to find out the OoP cost.

 

[surftheiop]

lol we are spoiled by browsing a forum that is primarily made of pretty well educated people. Read the comments at the bottom of any online news article and you will be fearing for humanity.

 

[D elegans]

lol we are spoiled by browsing a forum that is primarily made of pretty well educated people. Read the comments at the bottom of any online news article and you will be fearing for humanity.

So true.

 

[armybound]

Hmm, I wonder which field I can go in to and make $250,000/week doing 1 case per day. Sign me up for that

 

[NeuroChris]

Hmm, I wonder which field I can go in to and make $250,000/week doing 1 case per day. Sign me up for that

damn right son, get me some of that cheese

 

[Ortho Guy]

It would be nice to have an organization that all physicians belonged to that could reply to things like this.

We need a PR firm.

 

[DrBowtie]

It would be nice to have an organization that all physicians belonged to that could reply to things like this.

We need a PR firm.

The problem is that there are opposing interests within medicine and even within specialties. There isn't a unified medicine lobby which is why its relatively weak compared to the ANA.

 

[seelee]

The quote in the OP is simply a reflection of the wisdom of the mob (not the "don corleone" one, but the "tar and feather" one). A significant amount, if not an outright majority, of the population are various shades of idiot who think in terms of "sound bites" and "bumper stickers". Most of them couldn't formulate a coherent argument if their lives depended on it.

 

[AestheticMed]

It would be nice to have an organization that all physicians belonged to that could reply to things like this.

We need a PR firm.

Lobbyists right?

 

[kcin]

Alas, NY Times has proved something more ridiculous than the paper itself: its readers!

this guy <3

 

[Mattchiavelli]

too bad hospital bills don't include a breakdown of administrative costs

"$700 to pay someone to walk around holding a folder and deciding the font for a warning poster no one will read because it will be placed next to 65 other placards

$400 to have someone hold an opinion gathering session no one involved with patient care will attend b/c they are too busy caring for patients"

 

[AlexMorph]

too bad hospital bills don't include a breakdown of administrative costs

"$700 to pay someone to walk around holding a folder and deciding the font for a warning poster no one will read because it will be placed next to 65 other placards

$400 to have someone hold an opinion gathering session no one involved with patient care will attend b/c they are too busy caring for patients"

lol

 

[gettheleadout]

The problem is that there are opposing interests within medicine and even within specialties. There isn't a unified medicine lobby which is why its relatively weak compared to the ANA.

So how do we change public opinion? A new lobbying organization?

 

[anbuitachi]

So how do we change public opinion? A new lobbying organization?

Agreed. View on the doctor profession is getting more and more negative by the decade. Doctors simply dont do enough to defend themselves and as time passes, the common folks get the wrong impression and start putting blame on the drs.

 

[michaelrack]

This is one of the reasons why I support government health care, while I doubt it will be all roses for physicians, at least patients would always know what costs will / won't be covered in advance. I would trade a chunk of income for not having to deal with a dozen insurance companies, as well.

I think you are going to get your wish.

 

[The Angriest Bird]

The ultimate failure is that "money" has been such a taboo throughout medical education, starting with medical school, ending with residency/fellowship. Everyone who dares to touch the topic is instantly labeled as "greedy" or "don't care about patient". No other profession is like this.

We are all grown-up mature adults who have families to support, not to mention the six-figure loans. Doctors, attendings, medical school teachers, need to learn how to talk about medical economics, including their own incomes, in a professional and matter-of-fact way. A robust profession is one that does the job and demands appropriate compensation, and I don't know why some people would like to make medicine the exception.

 

[Gigantron]

11-15 years of your life training - Check
Acquiring enormous debt - Check
Liability incurred during medical practice - Check

Yet the general public likes to think that doctors are greedy and overpaid?


*don't mind me I'm just a guest*

 

[The Angriest Bird]

A surgeon wakes up in the mid of the night, driving to the hospital to take out an inflamed appendix.

Paid: $500

I saw the bill.

 

[circulus vitios]

The average person is incorrigibly stupid, news at 11.

 

[thepoopologist]

The average person is incorrigibly stupid, news at 11.

Yes, they see one side of an issue. Their side.

 

[AbbyNormal]

I don't feel too sorry for my physician. At my last office visit I was covered with poison ivy and he charged $135 to say yes, it is poison ivy and prescribed some po hydrocortisone. I had to pay half the cost of that office visit.

 

[Bacchus]

I don't feel too sorry for my physician. At my last office visit I was covered with poison ivy and he charged $135 to say yes, it is poison ivy and prescribed some po hydrocortisone. I had to pay half the cost of that office visit.

Welp, that's the going rate for an OV these days and feel better in knowing that you paid out of pocket directly to the physician, probably 25-35 dollars more... but the majority went to him. Your insurance paid the crotchety front-end of the office and raging bitch back-end of the office.

At least your money went to the good guy.

Edit: And be happy he didn't send you to a dermatologist "just to be sure."

 

[AbbyNormal]

Welp, that's the going rate for an OV these days

Really?? I guess I am lucky that I am healthy then.

 

[turkeyjerky]

I don't feel too sorry for my physician. At my last office visit I was covered with poison ivy and he charged $135 to say yes, it is poison ivy and prescribed some po hydrocortisone. I had to pay half the cost of that office visit.

Why'd you go to the doctor then?

 

[AbbyNormal]

Why'd you go to the doctor then?

Hydrocortisone cream wasn't working and from previous times when I had poison ivy I knew the po hydrocortisone works quickly. Maybe could have called and asked him to phone in a Rx for me but I never thought an office appt for poison ivy would cost that much.

 

[armybound]

A woman at church yesterday who just had a baby was saying it must be nice being an anesthesiologist, since he got paid $2500 for doing her epidural.

People clearly don't understand that 100% of your bill doesn't go directly in to a doctor's bank account.

 

[elmariachi]

idiots NYT readers assume it's all going to the doctor.

Well what do you expect from a rag whose editorial board has endorsed every Democratic presidential nominee since 1960?

 

[michaelrack]

Hydrocortisone cream wasn't working and from previous times when I had poison ivy I knew the po hydrocortisone works quickly. Maybe could have called and asked him to phone in a Rx for me but I never thought an office appt for poison ivy would cost that much.

In addition to making the dx (relatively easy), the doc had to assess (given your particular medical history) the risk of treatment with oral steroids- including hyperglycemia and psychotic reactions, and be prepared to deal with them. Both can happen, even with po hydrocortisone, and even in a relatively healthy person.

It wasn't just "an office appt for poison ivy"

 

[WellWornLad]

I always wondered why my insurance company sent me unitemized bills from the hospital. I guess it's just to say "hey, look at all this money we're shelling out for you!" In which case, it does the insurance company no good to either itemize the bill, or explain the difference between quoted and negotiated rates.

In addition to making the dx (relatively easy), the doc had to assess (given your particular medical history) the risk of treatment with oral steroids- including hyperglycemia and psychotic reactions, and be prepared to deal with them. Both can happen, even with po hydrocortisone, and even in a relatively healthy person.

It wasn't just "an office appt for poison ivy"

Moreover, it's not the doctor's fault that you decided to schlep to the office with an obvious case of poison ivy. He'd probably rather be doing something more interesting too, you know.

 

[D elegans]

Moreover, it's not the doctor's fault that you decided to schlep to the office with an obvious case of poison ivy. He'd probably rather be doing something more interesting too, you know.

Uninteresting diagnosis fee: $50

 

[luisfigo]

I was reading a bit of Thomas Sowell, the economist, who included an anecdote about having someone do a street painting for him, either of the backdrop of the city setting or something else. After finishing extremely quickly the guy said the price of the painting was $200 or so bucks, just making up a number. Sowell asked him why it was so much when it took him only a few minutes and the painter replied, yes, but it took me 25 years to be able to do it.

The point is that the physician compensation, like the price of the painting, or the cost of prescription drugs has much more to do with the sacrifices, preparation, and years poured into a project, product, or service than the actual raw cost of materials or the minutes/hours spent it takes to do a certain service. The average layperson, or liberal for that matter, will never understand things like the prices of goods or services in terms of the cost that went into those products. This is why they will always complain about the ceo salaries/physician salaries when they do not understand the sacrifices/stresses/years of ones' life that was put into training to be able to make or perform that good or service.

 

[isoquin]

lol we are spoiled by browsing a forum that is primarily made of pretty well educated people.

To which forum are you referring?

I was reading a bit of Thomas Sowell, the economist, who included an anecdote about having someone do a street painting for him, either of the backdrop of the city setting or something else. After finishing extremely quickly the guy said the price of the painting was $200 or so bucks, just making up a number. Sowell asked him why it was so much when it took him only a few minutes and the painter replied, yes, but it took me 25 years to be able to do it.

The point is that the physician compensation, like the price of the painting, or the cost of prescription drugs has much more to do with the sacrifices, preparation, and years poured into a project, product, or service than the actual raw cost of materials or the minutes/hours spent it takes to do a certain service. The average layperson, or liberal for that matter, will never understand things like the prices of goods or services in terms of the cost that went into those products. This is why they will always complain about the ceo salaries/physician salaries when they do not understand the sacrifices/stresses/years of ones' life that was put into training to be able to make or perform that good or service.

you took my example!!! darn.

 

[Rollo]

The point is that the physician compensation, like the price of the painting, or the cost of prescription drugs has much more to do with the sacrifices, preparation, and years poured into a project, product, or service than the actual raw cost of materials or the minutes/hours spent it takes to do a certain service. The average layperson, or liberal for that matter, will never understand things like the prices of goods or services in terms of the cost that went into those products. This is why they will always complain about the ceo salaries/physician salaries when they do not understand the sacrifices/stresses/years of ones' life that was put into training to be able to make or perform that good or service.

And that is why the article was posted on NY Times, and not something more sensible like WSJ.

 

[ArcGurren]

And that is why the article was posted on NY Times, and not something more sensible like WSJ.

I don't disagree with the general feeling in this thread, but anyone who thinks the WSJ is a sensible product is deluding themselves. It's run by Rupert Murdoch who by all accounts is the biggest partisan hack the world has ever known.

 

[Rollo]

I don't disagree with the general feeling in this thread, but anyone who thinks the WSJ is a sensible product is deluding themselves. It's run by Rupert Murdoch who by all accounts is the biggest partisan hack the world has ever known.

Good point but majority of WSJ editors and authors are pretty decent and make sense. It's tough enough finding a unbiased source of news and editorials as it is but in my book, WSJ comes pretty close.

 

[Bacchus]

A woman at church yesterday who just had a baby was saying it must be nice being an anesthesiologist, since he got paid $2500 for doing her epidural.

People clearly don't understand that 100% of your bill doesn't go directly in to a doctor's bank account.

If she only knew. The anesthesiologist billed in 15 minute increments, possibly $150/15 minutes for a highly-populated, well-negotiated area. Where I just did anesthesia, private insurance was paying about $45/15 minutes. Epidurals for labor (not spinals) aren't done because the man-power to watch the patient to make sure there are no ill-effects far superceded the benefit of billing for an epidural during labor.

My point: she's crazy.

 

[mrwesticles]

Holy crap! 100 grand for just one surgery? He must be talking about how much the surgery itself costs, which we certainly one 100% of goes into the pocket of the surgeon.

 

[thecalccobra]

Holy crap! 100 grand for just one surgery? He must be talking about how much the surgery itself costs, which we certainly one 100% of goes into the pocket of the surgeon.

I worked with an Electrophysiologist last week and each afib/aflutter ablation he does, the hospital charges the insurance company $80-100k. He probably averaged 6 a week and that's not including the pacemaker/defribillator insertions he did for which the hospital charged about the same. Each ablation took 2 hours average and the pacemaker insertions took 30 minutes.