Doctors are So Overpaid!

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Rand's basic premise was that no one should do anything for those around them unless they feel like it. In typical fashion, she pretends that all successful people are "self made" and have received zero assistance and support from society at large. She is simultaneously naive and willfully blind. No one over the age of 13 is swayed by her pedestrian prose and cardboard characters.

WTF. We have a philosophy/lit major in our midst! *bows*

When you stop bed wetting your Scooby Doo bunk bed, maybe a dicussion can follow about the responsiblities of citizens and society.

Until then just realize society bends to will of the strong, it always has and always will. Society hasnt and never will be the proactive element.

If the "masses" of Michael Moorians are determined to make American medicine their adversary, then God help them.

If people somehow think that myself and those like me can be defeated and forced into Socialist servitude under a Stalinist Clintonian Universal healthcare model, they are SADLY mistaken. Pen and paper legislation wont cut it, you would need a TON of guns and bullets and the steely nerve to use them and frankly the American people could never stomach a N.Irelandesque conflict at the local hospital on Mainstreet USA.

Members don't see this ad.
 
If people somehow think that myself and those like me can be defeated and forced into Socialist servitude under a Stalinist Clintonian Universal healthcare model, they are SADLY mistaken. Pen and paper legislation wont cut it, you would need a TON of guns and bullets and the steely nerve to use them and frankly the American people could never stomach a N.Irelandesque conflict at the local hospital on Mainstreet USA.

:laugh::laugh::laugh:"Doctor, remove my appendix or a Molotov coctail for you!":laugh::laugh::laugh:

In all seriousness, I'm not a medical professional but I do think you should consider consulting one if you really believe this.:eek:
 
1791-Whiskey Rebellion
image007.jpg


1860-Confederacy fires on Fort Sumter

1918-Battle of Belleau Wood (random historical reference)

1970-Postal Strike ended by National Guard

2008-Clinton is elected, declares Socialist economic model mirroring Europe.

2009-Anarchy in multiple US cities, National Guard stretched thin by 8 years in Iraq are useless to prevent worsening violence.
-Military arms find their way into Anti-Socialist paramilitary hands.

2010-Los Angeles falls to Falange hispanic paramilitary group with help from Central American drug and arms dealers. Southern California is annexed into the new "Republic of Old Mexico". Socialists are driven from Mexico City, over 5 million refugees flee the intense fighting.
-President Clinton is assassinated by her Marine Corps guard detail. VP Obama takes control of the presidency, signs a peace deal to permenantly surrender California, New Mexico, Arizona and a portion of Texas to the rebels. Shortly afterward, he is assassinated by left wing fanatics in the Democratic party. Howard Dean briefly takes office before committing suicide realizing things are hopeless.

2011-NY Stock Exchange bottoms out, Dow Jones below 1000 for the first time in over half a century. Worldwide recession ensues.
-Japanese Prime Minister declares a "New Imperial Order of the Rising Sun" with the goal of creating the most powerful Navy in the world within 5 years.

2012-German unemployment tops 20%. New right wing paramilitary group takes control of the Reichstag, declares a 'Fourth Reich'. Fearing the worst, Israeli commado groups bring over 20,000 European Jews to resettle in Israel in Operation:pegasus Bridge.

2013-Paris falls to Islamic fundamentalists after a vicious 3-day weekend of fighting outside Clichy-sous-Bois. Rest of the world ponders why it took so long for the French army to surrender.
 
The problem, as LADoc alludes to, is that there is always going to be money in health care. The question is, where does this money go? If it doesn't go to doctors, it will be siphoned away by executives, share holders, and other people without a direct link to patient care. It will also go to those holding patent rights on technology, lab tests, etc. It is NOT going to go to a reduction of cost or better insurance for everyone. That's extraordinarily naive. Anyone who thinks medicine can be a part of one great fantastic truly socialist society where health care is free for all and doctors may not get paid as well but "it's worth it because of the benefits to everyone else" is severely delusional. That's what profit-takers and robber barons want you to believe so that they can take the money you aren't taking yourself. And then health care will suffer even more.

Physician salaries are a very low component of health care expenditures, almost to the point of triviality, I would wager. But people who WANT to make money by screwing others over and scrimping on "unnecessary" parts of the deal are going to keep doing this, and they are more than happy to have doctors roll over, take less money, and all that. Because doctors will be the ones who continue to take the blame while they hide and shift the blame around in a minefield of paperwork and legalese.
 
Exactly, in fact by many estimates physican salaries are LESS than 10% of total healthcare expenditures in the US, meaning whatever the explanation of the huge difference between the US costs and Europe is NO WAY able to be explained by differences in pay.

Check this out:http://econlog.econlib.org/archives/2007/08/physician_pay.html

All you would accomplish by cutting physician reimbursements is incur my wrath. Pointless really.

great read:
http://www.aamc.org/newsroom/pressrel/2001/011104a.htm
 
Rand's basic premise was that no one should do anything for those around them unless they feel like it. In typical fashion, she pretends that all successful people are "self made" and have received zero assistance and support from society at large. She is simultaneously naive and willfully blind. No one over the age of 13 is swayed by her pedestrian prose and cardboard characters.

I was pretty smitten at 22 when I first read it.

If you read "The Millionaire Next Door," you'll learn that 90+% of American Millionaires ARE self-made, which is far higher than in the nations that preach equality as the highest calling. In other words, more people rise up from nothing here than anywhere else in the world.
 
Exactly, in fact by many estimates physican salaries are LESS than 10% of total healthcare expenditures in the US, meaning whatever the explanation of the huge difference between the US costs and Europe is NO WAY able to be explained by differences in pay.

Check this out:http://econlog.econlib.org/archives/2007/08/physician_pay.html

All you would accomplish by cutting physician reimbursements is incur my wrath. Pointless really.

great read:
http://www.aamc.org/newsroom/pressrel/2001/011104a.htm

A simpler way of saying it might be that doctor pay could be $0, and we'd still be more expensive than anyone else. We can argue forever about why it costs more here, but the pay of physicians sure isn't it. In fact, I'd be interested to know what percentage of healthcare expenditure is physician salary in each of the European nations. I'll be it's higher in many of them than here. Anyone have that statistic?
 
If the general public thinks I will be making too much and should be paid by foreign standards I have a solution for them. Go ahead and lower my salary to 60-120K Sounds good to me. As long as you agree to work for the salary your job would pay if it were outsourced. :D I think the reduction in costs of products would nicely offset my reduction in salary.

Which ironically wouldn't be the case as the companies and CEOs would just be pocketing difference. Funny how people can see that with their jobs but when it's about doctors all they see is "AAAAHHHHHHH they are making 200K. Pay them less pay them less!!!!!!!!"
 
Rand's basic premise was that no one should do anything for those around them unless they feel like it. In typical fashion, she pretends that all successful people are "self made" and have received zero assistance and support from society at large. She is simultaneously naive and willfully blind. No one over the age of 13 is swayed by her pedestrian prose and cardboard characters.

Fool, have you read the entire novel? Her superior characters receive knowledge and training from other superior characters. Francisco, Galt, Roark... all either went to established private institutes or learned informally from legends. Her heroes certainly do not receive, nor do they need, any help from the average societal joe, as you seem to be implying would be necessary for any of them to be successful. Have the government, or the insurance companies, or the people exploiting the emergency rooms helped me to get to where I am? No! 140,000 dollars of my own money has, though, as well as a great deal of effort.

It isn't that people should only do things "if they feel like it." Her point is that each transaction should benefit both parties equally, and that it should be totally voluntary on both ends. Were doctors to band together and operate independently, privately, and freely, please demonstrate to me how a physician would NEED the insurance companies, the bums, or the GOVERNMENT forcing their hands into service at a predetermined rate if they have any hope of practicing their profession. If you don't think it's wrong for an entire profession to be highjacked, forcefully, by the government, in the name of the "public welfare," then you ought to join a communist party.
 
Fool, have you read the entire novel?

Yes, and it sucks.

Her superior characters receive knowledge and training from other superior characters. Francisco, Galt, Roark... all either went to established private institutes or learned informally from legends. Her heroes certainly do not receive, nor do they need, any help from the average societal joe, as you seem to be implying would be necessary for any of them to be successful.

Way to mix your analogies. My point was that real people don't go "established private institutes" or "learn informally from legends". Real people go to public schools and get Federal loans to pay for college.

Also, in case you hadn't noticed, her "superior characters" are basically cardboard cutouts with zero development throughout the novel. When you're "superior" there's nowhere to go.

Have the government, or the insurance companies, or the people exploiting the emergency rooms helped me to get to where I am? No! 140,000 dollars of my own money has, though, as well as a great deal of effort.

Good for you. Go start a boutique cash business, as is your right. I periodically consider it. We'll see.

It isn't that people should only do things "if they feel like it." Her point is that each transaction should benefit both parties equally, and that it should be totally voluntary on both ends. Were doctors to band together and operate independently, privately, and freely, please demonstrate to me how a physician would NEED the insurance companies, the bums, or the GOVERNMENT forcing their hands into service at a predetermined rate if they have any hope of practicing their profession.

Again, nobody makes you participate. Practice or don't. Take insurance or don't. See Medicare patients or don't. Nobody cares.

What people like you miss is that, just because the system isn't designed to kiss your a$$, that doesn't mean it is inherrently unfair. In fact, it probably makes it more fair, in that it actually attempts to balance a just distribution of health care resources while still providing relatively high compensation to physicians.

Doctors aren't going out of business or leaving the profession in droves. We make a decent living, and we do what we enjoy. Hard to understand what you're so worked up over while still in med school.
 
BTW, if American physicians work 3 times the hours their European counterparts are working:

http://www.jaapa.com/issues/j20060201/articles/letters0206.htm
"A full-time GP is expected to work at least 26 hours per week"

Does it not make sense that they get paid 3 times as much (which is not happening by the way).

We don't judge ourselves against Europeans, we judge them against us.

The correct argument is: "If a European doctor works 1/3 of what we work, does it not make sense that they should make 1/3 the salary?"

And yes, obviously that is true.
 
...just realize society bends to will of the strong, it always has and always will. Society hasnt and never will be the proactive element.
This is utter nonsense and you should know better. Our society caters to its weakest and stupidest denominator, and to argue otherwise is a fool's errand. With the exception of a few members of the "Lucky Sperm Club" who are able to finance their own isolation from the unwashed masses, the most powerful members of our society are, without doubt, the (exponentially-proliferating) class of entitled cretins who suckle from the honeyed teat of Someone Else's Labor.

EDIT: I don't necessarily disagree with your larger argument, but I felt that this assertion shouldn't go unchallenged.
 
... I'm just starting medical school now and while I expected the majority of my classmates to be somewhat liberal in their general outlook on life, I've been astounded at how far left most of them are. Almost everyone I've overheard talking about any aspect of politics, culture, or society has expressed overwhelmingly liberal views. On their Facebook profiles, probably a good 50% of them listed "very liberal" for their political views, with probably another 45% listing "liberal," and most of the remaining 5% divided between "moderate" and "other"--there are literally about 2 who put "conservative". As long as medical schools are going to select for these people, the profession is going to continue on a suicide course...


"Any man in his 20's who is not a liberal has no heart. Any man in his 40's who is not a conservative has no brains."

--Winston Churchill

Most 20 somethings are usually liberal...nature of the beast...
 
"Any man in his 20's who is not a liberal has no heart. Any man in his 40's who is not a conservative has no brains."

--Winston Churchill

Most 20 somethings are usually liberal...nature of the beast...

This quote is out dated.. It applied when people started as naive thinking they are in a mostly good world and later they wisen up. Now most people are the opposite.. They start naive thinking they are in a mostly evil world and later wisen up. So now they start very opinionated and as they grow older they grow wiser and become maliable.
 
Completely 100% true regarding admissions. Adcoms are letting in some of the most liberal people I've ever seen into med school these days, and in droves.

Government run ANYTHING sucks. You want to kill patients? Give us socialised medicine. Free market for life, baby. Socialists, Commies, and Fascists can all go to he!!.

Because health care is a FUNDAMENTAL HUMAN RIGHT! zomg the UN said so!!!!!!!!!!11111!!!1

Seriously, things are never going to get better if medicine is going to be dominated by liberal docs like the internist cited in that article. I'm just starting medical school now and while I expected the majority of my classmates to be somewhat liberal in their general outlook on life, I've been astounded at how far left most of them are. Almost everyone I've overheard talking about any aspect of politics, culture, or society has expressed overwhelmingly liberal views. On their Facebook profiles, probably a good 50% of them listed "very liberal" for their political views, with probably another 45% listing "liberal," and most of the remaining 5% divided between "moderate" and "other"--there are literally about 2 who put "conservative". As long as medical schools are going to select for these people, the profession is going to continue on a suicide course.
 
LADoc00, you rule and this post shows it in so many ways to those who know what to look for. :laugh:

1791-Whiskey Rebellion
image007.jpg


1860-Confederacy fires on Fort Sumter

1918-Battle of Belleau Wood (random historical reference)

1970-Postal Strike ended by National Guard

2008-Clinton is elected, declares Socialist economic model mirroring Europe.

2009-Anarchy in multiple US cities, National Guard stretched thin by 8 years in Iraq are useless to prevent worsening violence.
-Military arms find their way into Anti-Socialist paramilitary hands.

2010-Los Angeles falls to Falange hispanic paramilitary group with help from Central American drug and arms dealers. Southern California is annexed into the new "Republic of Old Mexico". Socialists are driven from Mexico City, over 5 million refugees flee the intense fighting.
-President Clinton is assassinated by her Marine Corps guard detail. VP Obama takes control of the presidency, signs a peace deal to permenantly surrender California, New Mexico, Arizona and a portion of Texas to the rebels. Shortly afterward, he is assassinated by left wing fanatics in the Democratic party. Howard Dean briefly takes office before committing suicide realizing things are hopeless.

2011-NY Stock Exchange bottoms out, Dow Jones below 1000 for the first time in over half a century. Worldwide recession ensues.
-Japanese Prime Minister declares a "New Imperial Order of the Rising Sun" with the goal of creating the most powerful Navy in the world within 5 years.

2012-German unemployment tops 20%. New right wing paramilitary group takes control of the Reichstag, declares a 'Fourth Reich'. Fearing the worst, Israeli commado groups bring over 20,000 European Jews to resettle in Israel in Operation:pegasus Bridge.

2013-Paris falls to Islamic fundamentalists after a vicious 3-day weekend of fighting outside Clichy-sous-Bois. Rest of the world ponders why it took so long for the French army to surrender.
 
The quote is outdated because "liberal" back in Churchhill's day didn't mean a Howard Dean Worship Service at the MoveOn.Org Virtual Meeting hosted by the local Nubile & Curious Drug Club. Well, he was right about the age 40 thing. Apply it to 20 year olds too. Another great cost of healthcare not usually mentioned is that of research & development. Do people honestly think all of our advances and technology comes out of thin air, and that those who do create it, should give it away freely?

People on here say "we'll never have socialised medicine because of so and so lobby". Guys, that's not how it works. Laws are passed with majorities, and if the dems win in 08, combined with picked up seats in the house and senate, the MoveOn.Org wing of the party will crack the healthcare whip so fast, the girly men won't know what do to with themselves. This is why it is utterly important that people vote for the RIGHT people in 08 and beyond.

"Any man in his 20's who is not a liberal has no heart. Any man in his 40's who is not a conservative has no brains."

--Winston Churchill

Most 20 somethings are usually liberal...nature of the beast...
 
"Any man in his 20's who is not a liberal has no heart. Any man in his 40's who is not a conservative has no brains."

--Winston Churchill

Most 20 somethings are usually liberal...nature of the beast...
This quote is out dated.. It applied when people started as naive thinking they are in a mostly good world and later they wisen up. Now most people are the opposite.. They start naive thinking they are in a mostly evil world and later wisen up. So now they start very opinionated and as they grow older they grow wiser and become maliable.
The quote is outdated because "liberal" back in Churchhill's day didn't mean a Howard Dean Worship Service at the MoveOn.Org Virtual Meeting hosted by the local Nubile & Curious Drug Club. Well, he was right about the age 40 thing. Apply it to 20 year olds too. Another great cost of healthcare not usually mentioned is that of research & development. Do people honestly think all of our advances and technology comes out of thin air, and that those who do create it, should give it away freely?

It doesn't really matter to the sentiments being expressed here, but the source of that aphorism is actually unkown, and it was falsely attributed to Churchill long after he had died. This fact is widely known amongst people who study such things. Here's one excerpt among the many available about the misattribution.

The quotation usually attributed to Churchill is, "If you're not Liberal when you're 25, you have no heart. If you're not Conservative when you're 35, you have no brain." However, the attribution is false. There is no record of Churchill ever speaking these words, and it is highly unlikely that he would have because Churchill himself did precisely the opposite. He entered politics as a Conservative and was a Conservative at age 25. He switched to the Liberal Party at age 29 and was a Liberal at age 35. (He returned to the Conservatives at age 49.) Also, his beloved wife, Clementine, was a life-long Liberal, and Churchill would hardly have delivered such an indirect insult to her.

It should also be remembered that "Liberal" and "Conservative" are the proper names of British political parties and do not translate precisely to the left and right wings of the American political spectrum. That is too long a subject for this space, but it can fairly be said that Churchill's political viewpoint and guiding principles did not change radically, despite his twice switching his allegiance. In Churchill's own view, changes in the party, not in himself, compelled his party switches.

However, there is a verifiable Churchill quotation that may be relevant to today's political situation. In 1943 (at the height of World War II, when England's very survival was at stake), he wrote: "The power of the executive to cast a man in prison without formulating any charge known to the law and particularly to deny him the judgment of his peers is in the highest degree odious and is the foundation of all totalitarian government...."

Here's a link to The Churchill Centre. At the top of the home page is another comment on the misattribution.

http://winstonchurchill.org/i4a/pages/index.cfm?pageid=112
 
... On their Facebook profiles, probably a good 50% of them listed "very liberal" for their political views, with probably another 45% listing "liberal," and most of the remaining 5% divided between "moderate" and "other"--there are literally about 2 who put "conservative". As long as medical schools are going to select for these people, the profession is going to continue on a suicide course.


...and if the dems win in 08, combined with picked up seats in the house and senate, the MoveOn.Org wing of the party will crack the healthcare whip so fast, the girly men won't know what do to with themselves. This is why it is utterly important that people vote for the RIGHT people in 08 and beyond.



Think about who we want taking care of us...

A doc who is so far right he can't see straight? These are the guys that are more likely to project their religious-right views on you (the patient), and follow the Pat Robertsons/David Dukes of the world blindly...Do you want this guy/gal trating the gay population and the pregnant teen?

Or the Michael Moore extremists who think health care is a right, and will drain this country drier than it already is w/ free public programs? Try scheduling an elective surgery in their world, or banking 6 figures...

I want the middle guy who gives great care to all, but wants us to pay for our health care...

Certainly it's not that simple, but The RIGHT people want the FCC to regulate my satellite radio, so they can kiss my a$$...The WRONG people want Greenpeace to rule the world...
 
This is utter nonsense and you should know better. Our society caters to its weakest and stupidest denominator, and to argue otherwise is a fool's errand. With the exception of a few members of the "Lucky Sperm Club" who are able to finance their own isolation from the unwashed masses, the most powerful members of our society are, without doubt, the (exponentially-proliferating) class of entitled cretins who suckle from the honeyed teat of Someone Else's Labor.

EDIT: I don't necessarily disagree with your larger argument, but I felt that this assertion shouldn't go unchallenged.
Well said! :thumbup:
 
WOW, comparing me to David Duke, a KKK guy, because I disagree with socialized medicine and am against MoveOn.Org, a radical leftist internet machine? As if that would effect the way I treat any patient, whether it's an HIV patient or a pregnant teen?

You're a real winner there, buddy. The perfect example of throwing ad hominems when you disagree, without addressing the issue at hand. I don't know what you are, other than a non-student, but I'm dang glad I don't work with you.


Way off base Coastie...I don't know you, and wouldn't pretend to know where you fall in the bipartisan spectrum...That wasn't the point

I wasn't comparing you to anyone...

my point was that the extreme on either side could be a problem w/ good medicine in general...

again, not about you, okay?

however, over the last 13 years, I have seen extremely religious nurses, docs, etc. allow their own beliefs to interfere in objective medicinal practice...

There was a header on the front SDN page a while back about pharmacists who think the morning after pill was akin to abortion, and wouldn't dispense it...

I've worked w/ docs who won't wright for it (staunch Catholics, Mormons)...So don't be so naive to think that one's own beliefs couldn't cloud one's (clinical) judgement

I'm not sure what you think I disagree with...I was simply reprinting a quote, and opining about extreme political beliefs in the field of medicine...

It's a fact that wackos like duke and robertson are on the extreme right, and moore and hollywood on the extreme left...

I like my own ideas, somewhere in the middle...

p.s. they are not overpaid
 
Post call....100+ hours a week...let's just edit these posts out. :laugh:

Way off base Coastie...I don't know you, and wouldn't pretend to know where you fall in the bipartisan spectrum...That wasn't the point

I wasn't comparing you to anyone...

my point was that the extreme on either side could be a problem w/ good medicine in general...

again, not about you, okay?

however, over the last 13 years, I have seen extremely religious nurses, docs, etc. allow their own beliefs to interfere in objective medicinal practice...

There was a header on the front SDN page a while back about pharmacists who think the morning after pill was akin to abortion, and wouldn't dispense it...

I've worked w/ docs who won't wright for it (staunch Catholics, Mormons)...So don't be so naive to think that one's own beliefs couldn't cloud one's (clinical) judgement

I'm not sure what you think I disagree with...I was simply reprinting a quote, and opining about extreme political beliefs in the field of medicine...

It's a fact that wackos like duke and robertson are on the extreme right, and moore and hollywood on the extreme left...

I like my own ideas, somewhere in the middle...

p.s. they are not overpaid
 
I don't think doctors are overpaid at all, personally. I do think their operating costs would go down if each office didn't have to pay three or four people to do nothing but argue with the insurance companies.

My liberal anger is at the decision that gave corporations legal personhood without that bothersome problem of dying after eighty years or so that we humans have, and the bloated ticks of corporations that are sitting on healthcare and taking and not giving. I've got nothing against the doctors.

But from the view of a patient, while I don't mind paying what I pay for an office visit, it sucks that I need more (paying out) when I am taking in less in income because I'm sick and can't work. And at that point complaining about the cost is like complaining about the rain or the heat, you know...it's what it is, and not fun, but you endure.
 
can someone post the article please
 
HOW to fix the health care system?

Skip to next paragraph

Alex Nabaum
Easy, liberals say. If Washington would just force cuts in prescription drug prices and insurance company profits, plenty of money would be left over to cover the uninsured.

Conservatives prefer to argue that the answer lies in forcing people to pay more of their own medical costs.

But many health care economists say both sides are wrong. These economists, some of whom are also doctors, say the partisan fight over insurers and drug makers is a distraction from a bigger problem: the relatively high salaries paid to American doctors, and even more importantly, the way they are compensated.

“I always find it ironic that when I go to doctor groups and such, they always talk about the cost of prescription drugs,” said Dana Goldman, director of health economics at the RAND Corporation, a nonprofit research institute in Santa Monica, Calif.

Prescription drugs cost, on average, 30 percent to 50 percent more in the United States than in Europe. But the difference in doctors’ salaries is far larger, Dr. Goldman said.

Doctors in the United States earn two to three times as much as they do in other industrialized countries. Surveys by medical-practice management groups show that American doctors make an average of $200,000 to $300,000 a year. Primary care doctors and pediatricians make less, between $125,000 and $200,000, but in specialties like radiology, physicians can take home $400,000 or more.

In Europe, however, doctors made $60,000 to $120,000 in 2002, according to a survey sponsored by the British government in 2004.

Given the years of training that doctors require and the stress and importance of their jobs, few would disagree that they should be well paid. In addition, with a year of medical school now about $30,000, many doctors leave school deeply in debt. And many doctors would argue that cutting salaries would only persuade talented, college graduates to pursue better-paying professions.

Still, the lower salaries are a significant part of the reason that European countries spend less on health care than the United States does — a fact liberals avoid mentioning when they preach the advantages of a European-style single-payer system.

Americans generally do not seem to mind the fact that doctors are well paid. In public opinion surveys, doctors usually rank as the most trusted professionals. Congress has repeatedly blocked Medicare’s efforts to reduce the amount it pays for each procedure doctors perform, even though overall Medicare payments to doctors are soaring and the cuts are legally required to keep the program’s budget balanced.

The way that doctors are paid may be an even more significant factor driving up costs and may lead to unnecessary care, said Dr. Peter B. Bach, a pulmonary physician at Memorial Sloan-Kettering Cancer Center and a former senior adviser to Medicare and Medicaid.

In the United States, nearly all doctors are paid piecemeal, for each test or procedure they perform, rather than a flat salary. As a result, physicians have financial incentives to perform procedures that further drive up overall health care spending.

Doctors are paid little for routine examinations and very little for “cognitive services,” such as researching different treatment options or offering advice to help patients get better without treatment.

“I don’t have a view on whether doctors take home too much money or not enough money,” Dr. Bach said. “The problem is the way they earn their money. They have to do stuff. They have to do procedures.”

Primary care doctors and pediatricians, who rarely perform complex procedures, make less than specialists. They are attracting a declining percentage of medical students, and some states are facing a shortage of primary care doctors.

Doctors are also paid whether the procedures they perform go well or badly, Dr. Bach said, and whether they are crucial to a patient’s health or not..

“Almost all expenditures pass through the pen of a doctor,” he said. So a doctor may decide to perform a test that costs a total of $4,000 in order to make $800 for himself — when a cheaper test might work equally well. “This is a highly inefficient way to pay doctors,” Dr. Bach said.

Medicare, especially, does not like to second-guess doctors’ clinical decisions, said Dr. Stephen Zuckerman, a health economist at the Urban Institute. “There’s not a lot of utilization review or prior authorization in Medicare,” he said. “If you’re doing the work, you can expect to get paid.”

As a result, doctors have steadily increased the number of procedures they perform on Medicare beneficiaries — and thus have increased their income from Medicare, Dr. Zuckerman said. But the extra procedures have not helped patients’ health much, he said. “I don’t think there’s any real strong evidence of improvements in health status.”

Private insurers like H.M.O.’s are more aggressive than Medicare in second-guessing physicians’ clinical decisions, and they will refuse to pay for imaging scans or other expensive new procedures. Now Medicare and private insurers are moving cautiously to change the current system. Recently, they have proposed pay-for-performance measures that would give doctors small bonuses if their care meets the standards set by national medical organizations such as the American Heart Association.

BUT all those measures are a minor fix, said Dr. Alan Garber, a practicing internist and the director of the Center for Health Policy at Stanford University. Instead, he argues, the United States should move toward paying doctors fixed salaries, plus bonuses based on the health of the patients they care for.

Even in the existing system, some health insurers, notably Kaiser Permanente, already have large networks of salaried doctors. But it would require doctors to give up some of their autonomy and move into larger group practices or work directly for insurers, a step they have been reluctant to take. About 40 percent of doctors are in single or two-physician practices, Dr. Garber said.

Nor is the American Medical Association, which represents doctors, eager for wholesale changes in the system, said Dr. Edward L. Langston, chairman of the A.M.A. board.

Insurance company profits and the rising cost of preventable diseases like diabetes are big culprits in soaring health care spending, Dr. Langston said.

But Dr. Goldman of RAND said that doctors are misleading themselves if they think the current system serves patients’ needs.

For example, if a diabetic patient visits a doctor, he said, “the doctor is paid to check his feet, they’re paid to check his eyes; they’re not paid to make sure he goes out and exercises and really, that may be the most important thing.”

“The whole health-care system is set up to pay for services that are rendered,” he said, “when the patient, and society, is interested in health.”
 
HOW to fix the health care system?

Skip to next paragraph

Alex Nabaum
Easy, liberals say. If Washington would just force cuts in prescription drug prices and insurance company profits, plenty of money would be left over to cover the uninsured.

Conservatives prefer to argue that the answer lies in forcing people to pay more of their own medical costs.

But many health care economists say both sides are wrong. These economists, some of whom are also doctors, say the partisan fight over insurers and drug makers is a distraction from a bigger problem: the relatively high salaries paid to American doctors, and even more importantly, the way they are compensated.

"I always find it ironic that when I go to doctor groups and such, they always talk about the cost of prescription drugs," said Dana Goldman, director of health economics at the RAND Corporation, a nonprofit research institute in Santa Monica, Calif.

Prescription drugs cost, on average, 30 percent to 50 percent more in the United States than in Europe. But the difference in doctors' salaries is far larger, Dr. Goldman said.

Doctors in the United States earn two to three times as much as they do in other industrialized countries. Surveys by medical-practice management groups show that American doctors make an average of $200,000 to $300,000 a year. Primary care doctors and pediatricians make less, between $125,000 and $200,000, but in specialties like radiology, physicians can take home $400,000 or more.

In Europe, however, doctors made $60,000 to $120,000 in 2002, according to a survey sponsored by the British government in 2004.

Given the years of training that doctors require and the stress and importance of their jobs, few would disagree that they should be well paid. In addition, with a year of medical school now about $30,000, many doctors leave school deeply in debt. And many doctors would argue that cutting salaries would only persuade talented, college graduates to pursue better-paying professions.

Still, the lower salaries are a significant part of the reason that European countries spend less on health care than the United States does — a fact liberals avoid mentioning when they preach the advantages of a European-style single-payer system.

Americans generally do not seem to mind the fact that doctors are well paid. In public opinion surveys, doctors usually rank as the most trusted professionals. Congress has repeatedly blocked Medicare's efforts to reduce the amount it pays for each procedure doctors perform, even though overall Medicare payments to doctors are soaring and the cuts are legally required to keep the program's budget balanced.

The way that doctors are paid may be an even more significant factor driving up costs and may lead to unnecessary care, said Dr. Peter B. Bach, a pulmonary physician at Memorial Sloan-Kettering Cancer Center and a former senior adviser to Medicare and Medicaid.

In the United States, nearly all doctors are paid piecemeal, for each test or procedure they perform, rather than a flat salary. As a result, physicians have financial incentives to perform procedures that further drive up overall health care spending.

Doctors are paid little for routine examinations and very little for "cognitive services," such as researching different treatment options or offering advice to help patients get better without treatment.

"I don't have a view on whether doctors take home too much money or not enough money," Dr. Bach said. "The problem is the way they earn their money. They have to do stuff. They have to do procedures."

Primary care doctors and pediatricians, who rarely perform complex procedures, make less than specialists. They are attracting a declining percentage of medical students, and some states are facing a shortage of primary care doctors.

Doctors are also paid whether the procedures they perform go well or badly, Dr. Bach said, and whether they are crucial to a patient's health or not..

"Almost all expenditures pass through the pen of a doctor," he said. So a doctor may decide to perform a test that costs a total of $4,000 in order to make $800 for himself — when a cheaper test might work equally well. "This is a highly inefficient way to pay doctors," Dr. Bach said.

Medicare, especially, does not like to second-guess doctors' clinical decisions, said Dr. Stephen Zuckerman, a health economist at the Urban Institute. "There's not a lot of utilization review or prior authorization in Medicare," he said. "If you're doing the work, you can expect to get paid."

As a result, doctors have steadily increased the number of procedures they perform on Medicare beneficiaries — and thus have increased their income from Medicare, Dr. Zuckerman said. But the extra procedures have not helped patients' health much, he said. "I don't think there's any real strong evidence of improvements in health status."

Private insurers like H.M.O.'s are more aggressive than Medicare in second-guessing physicians' clinical decisions, and they will refuse to pay for imaging scans or other expensive new procedures. Now Medicare and private insurers are moving cautiously to change the current system. Recently, they have proposed pay-for-performance measures that would give doctors small bonuses if their care meets the standards set by national medical organizations such as the American Heart Association.

BUT all those measures are a minor fix, said Dr. Alan Garber, a practicing internist and the director of the Center for Health Policy at Stanford University. Instead, he argues, the United States should move toward paying doctors fixed salaries, plus bonuses based on the health of the patients they care for.

Even in the existing system, some health insurers, notably Kaiser Permanente, already have large networks of salaried doctors. But it would require doctors to give up some of their autonomy and move into larger group practices or work directly for insurers, a step they have been reluctant to take. About 40 percent of doctors are in single or two-physician practices, Dr. Garber said.

Nor is the American Medical Association, which represents doctors, eager for wholesale changes in the system, said Dr. Edward L. Langston, chairman of the A.M.A. board.

Insurance company profits and the rising cost of preventable diseases like diabetes are big culprits in soaring health care spending, Dr. Langston said.

But Dr. Goldman of RAND said that doctors are misleading themselves if they think the current system serves patients' needs.

For example, if a diabetic patient visits a doctor, he said, "the doctor is paid to check his feet, they're paid to check his eyes; they're not paid to make sure he goes out and exercises and really, that may be the most important thing."

Doctors in other industrialized countries also don't work nearly as hard or as long as American doctors. In many EU countries, for example, physicians work hours are limited by law. A surgeon in Germany, for example, may only make the equivalent of $50,000 a year but exactly how hard do you think he works and how willing is he to do the extra cases? The fact is that if you remove the incentive for working hard, you may still have the same number of doctors but they will be doing less work. As a big bolus of whiney, demanding baby-boomers is fixin' to clog the pipes of the health care system, this is not the time to cut the supply of medical service which is what a pay cut will do. Or do you think I'm going to slave away, struggling to see my 2.5 patients an hour for nineteen bucks an hour?

As to making people exercise, how, precisely, does the author of the article propose we do that? I see about 20 patients per twelve hour shift. Most of them need to exercise, lose weight, stop smoking, stop doing drugs, stop beating their wives, girlfriends, kids, and generally change most of their behaviors. Even if I had the inclination there is no way I have time to follow even a small fraction of my patients home and make sure they eat their vegetables.
 
Healthcare in reality is a privilege, never has been a right.

If it was, kids in Africa would get what people in other countries get. But ask any typical middle class failure American if they should drop their living standards so that somebody less fortunate can get something, and the response is "that's so sad" and go back to doing the usual. But they are willing to drop our salaries so they can get free care while drinking bottled waters, buying an I-phone, having cable, two cars, attending sporting events, going on vacations every year, etc. I remember when I grew up that my parents adjusted themselves to the "game" and tried to move up rather than whine and try to change the rules all the time.

They also show up with a grocery list of services to the hospital and start being verbally abusive when they don't get something. There has been more than one situation where I wish I could just say "Shut the F up, you're lucky I'm even trying to get you better when somebody more cooperative is waiting in the ER." More troubling is that even if you save a life but one little thing goes awry, they want to get a lawyer. Doctors are under appreciated in the US by a significant portion of the patient population. It really pisses me off when someone says docs don't deserve their salary especially when their degrees required the knowledge base I had as a 4 year old (a little exaggeration). The "middle class" really needs to learn how to take a lifestyle cut. What if they earned what someone gets in Indian or China for doing a better job? Watch them b3itch.

Let teachers, firefighters, policemen be a good example of what happens when service becomes public and get scrutinized. All three are extraordinarily underpaid in a lot of areas for the important service they provide. Incompetency has creeped in and quality has been marginalized. That's what will happen to docs. Talent will move away cuz America is about working hard and reaping the rewards. It might sound sadistic and elitist, but doctors may need a widespread strike to show how crucial their service is to society.

I don't support this viewpoint because I'm greedy (don't plan on working mad hours = picking anesthesia), but I hate entitlement without putting in time.
 
Any time you say that healthcare is a right you are saying that you have a right to force others to work for you for free. In other words you are advocating slavery.

Food is important too, is that a right? Should we just allow people to walk in and get what they want from the grocery store? Hell no, they need to buy it.

They need to buy their healthcare too.

We have the best healthcare in the world, that's why people in other countries flock to come here when they get sick.

If you want to see what socialized medicine is like look no farther than the VA system. That's socilized medicine lite, and any national system would be much, much worse.
 
Healthcare in reality is a privilege, never has been a right.

If it was, kids in Africa would get what people in other countries get. But ask any typical middle class failure American if they should drop their living standards so that somebody less fortunate can get something, and the response is "that's so sad" and go back to doing the usual. But they are willing to drop our salaries so they can get free care while drinking bottled waters, buying an I-phone, having cable, two cars, attending sporting events, going on vacations every year, etc. I remember when I grew up that my parents adjusted themselves to the "game" and tried to move up rather than whine and try to change the rules all the time.

They also show up with a grocery list of services to the hospital and start being verbally abusive when they don't get something. There has been more than one situation where I wish I could just say "Shut the F up, you're lucky I'm even trying to get you better when somebody more cooperative is waiting in the ER." More troubling is that even if you save a life but one little thing goes awry, they want to get a lawyer. Doctors are under appreciated in the US by a significant portion of the patient population. It really pisses me off when someone says docs don't deserve their salary especially when their degrees required the knowledge base I had as a 4 year old (a little exaggeration). The "middle class" really needs to learn how to take a lifestyle cut. What if they earned what someone gets in Indian or China for doing a better job? Watch them b3itch.

Let teachers, firefighters, policemen be a good example of what happens when service becomes public and get scrutinized. All three are extraordinarily underpaid in a lot of areas for the important service they provide. Incompetency has creeped in and quality has been marginalized. That's what will happen to docs. Talent will move away cuz America is about working hard and reaping the rewards. It might sound sadistic and elitist, but doctors may need a widespread strike to show how crucial their service is to society.

I don't support this viewpoint because I'm greedy (don't plan on working mad hours = picking anesthesia), but I hate entitlement without putting in time.

For the most part I agree with what you said except whats in bold. A firefighter or a police officer with a few years of experience under his/her belt can easily be pushing 100k+ and even more if they're willing to work a few overtime shifts. It also doesn't really take much training or intelligence to be either.

OTD said:
Any time you say that healthcare is a right you are saying that you have a right to force others to work for you for free. In other words you are advocating slavery.

Food is important too, is that a right? Should we just allow people to walk in and get what they want from the grocery store? Hell no, they need to buy it.

They need to buy their healthcare too.

We have the best healthcare in the world, that's why people in other countries flock to come here when they get sick.

If you want to see what socialized medicine is like look no farther than the VA system. That's socilized medicine lite, and any national system would be much, much worse.

Excellent point.

Except patients in the VA are pretty thankful/grateful from what I hear. :)

I think I can best sum it up by saying what people are willing to pay for medicine hasn't kept up for what medical technology is capable of (all those imaging, diagnostic procedures, new medications, etc are expensive), where as doctor salaries have gone down (especially when measured against inflation).
 
In all seriousness, I'm not a medical professional but I do think you should consider consulting one if you really believe this.:eek:


It's quite obvious that you're not a medical professional; if you were, you wouldn't be making the argument, in even a small way, that physicians today are overcompensated.
 
For the most part I agree with what you said except whats in bold. A firefighter or a police officer with a few years of experience under his/her belt can easily be pushing 100k+ and even more if they're willing to work a few overtime shifts. It also doesn't really take much training or intelligence to be either.

Except patients in the VA are pretty thankful/grateful from what I hear. :)

I think I can best sum it up by saying what people are willing to pay for medicine hasn't kept up for what medical technology is capable of (all those imaging, diagnostic procedures, new medications, etc are expensive), where as doctor salaries have gone down (especially when measured against inflation).

For the first point, firemen run into burning buildings especially in the big cities. I don't care about intelligence as much as the level of necessity to society. He||, I think garbage people should be paid more than they do right now. But, all these useless people working desk jobs to shift money from one account to another or balance company checkbooks. Many could be replaced by software. For example, I worked at Xerox out of high school and I created something that took 8 hours worth of clicking and other cr@p and reduced it to like 3-4. That means 1 out of 2 people could be fired on that floor or cut both peoples wages by 1/2. Then, I'm cool. Also, retail like clothing should not be getting competitive wages.

For the second point about the VA, many are grateful because maybe that is the culture they grew up in. They realize that I'm not trying to **** em over. If I truly was, then I wouldn't be in this field. I would be a lawyer instead. But VA patients are not the usual public. Here is another example. I have a patient right now who threw a hissy fit with me for 1/2 hour because he didn't get his psych meds yesterday on day of admission. That's bad but you need to be able to prove that you are on 3 different meds. Nobody is just going to drop 3 benzos because you said so, and then he goes blaming nurses and docs for not trusting him. What pisses me off more is that he has a list on his computer, which he brought with him on the ambulance ride, but he didn't show it to anybody. That would have helped me to create the med rec list and start his soooo desired meds. That is his f'en responsibility, not mine. Medical care starts with the individual. You just don't show up and expect miracle fixes. I can't imagine the catastrophic outcome of generalized care where everyone from druggies to the common entitled a-hole comes in demanding things. Plus, the oath doesn't require me to be a slave to the public. Interestingly, the original oath says no to abortion and not discussing medical knowledge with people outside of the field (which is violated by consent which requires explanation of procedures).

Learning points:

1. Tell patients to keep a wallet size folding card containing medicines with dosage and schedule, PMH/PSH (indicate places of care), and allergies. Write it on the discharge instructions if your institution does not have something standardized. Yet, pts will never keep the card on them particularly the drunks and druggies.

2. Free will should be given importance. Even though not everyone can be a president, they can choose to join in society's productivity or leech of it. This is no longer valued in the US and people point fingers at others instead of themselves. Welcome to commie mentality which failed in practice.

3. When someone tells you that you don't deserve your salary, you ask them how much their education costs, how many years they put in, how much they had to study (probably nothing at all), and how many critical decisions they make? Then, you tell them to go f themselves cuz they are eager to get cr@p for free when they can take a living standards cut.
 
I want to preface this by saying I don't begrudge doctors anything at all. I have a lot of respect for the dedication, hard work, and long hours you put in on a daily basis. I appreciate the sacrifice, and I'm grateful for all the wonderful medical care my family and I have had. And I have no doubt that the system isn't fair.

But what is? Imagine being a 42 year old woman with schizophrenia. Your mental illness has kept you from having stable relationships and jobs, and often keeps you from taking your meds (or maybe it's the side effects of your meds that made you quit). You make maybe $700/month from Social Security. You're probably using, and you smoke cigarettes like a chimney. When you eat, it's PopTarts and HoHos. You look a good 20 years older than you really are.

You get by, but every so often, the many stressors in your life overwhelm you and you can't hold it together anymore. You get TDOd, spend some time in the state hospital, get stabilized. You hadn't paid your rent/caused too much trouble/destroyed property/whatever, so you've been evicted from your overpriced, vermin infested room. Because of your mental illness, you've burned a LOT of bridges with landlords, and no one will rent to you. You have criminal charges pending, so you can't move into subsidized housing...

These are the people I work with. I have a master's in counseling, and I work for a public agency, with people with SMI, most of whom are homeless or about to be homeless. My salary is a whopping 27k a year, about a third of what I made when I worked in IT, before I went back to school. But despite the enormous pay cut, I love my job, and every day I'm reminded just how lucky I really am. Life can really suck. Bad.

You made it through med school, so it's a given that you're intelligent and work hard. You're well educated, and your job affords you plenty of status in the community--people might resent you, but it's because they'd like to be like you. You're generally capable of achieving just about anything you want in life. Whatever your salary, whatever your circumstances, you have much more going for you than most :)
 
Hilarious..

There are 3 necessities, food clothing and shelter. Once we take care of that for the masses get back to me and Ill worry about another liberal hippie agenda of socializing healthcare here.
 
MORE LA! MORE LA! MORE LA!
More believers in free markets begin to chant... MORE LA! MORE LA!... until its eventually a deafening roar.

One of the best scenarios since "GOODWILL HUNTING".
THNAK YOU!
 
The problem is that big government sucks for everyone, patients, doctors, and the 42 year old woman.

The bigger problem is that nobody realizes this until it's too late, but some doctors are waking up to the fact now. Can we fix the system before it goes off into a socialist abyss? I'm not sure. Too many people sucking off the government t*t at this point, I'm afraid.

I want to preface this by saying I don't begrudge doctors anything at all. I have a lot of respect for the dedication, hard work, and long hours you put in on a daily basis. I appreciate the sacrifice, and I'm grateful for all the wonderful medical care my family and I have had. And I have no doubt that the system isn't fair.

But what is? Imagine being a 42 year old woman with schizophrenia. Your mental illness has kept you from having stable relationships and jobs, and often keeps you from taking your meds (or maybe it's the side effects of your meds that made you quit). You make maybe $700/month from Social Security. You're probably using, and you smoke cigarettes like a chimney. When you eat, it's PopTarts and HoHos. You look a good 20 years older than you really are.

You get by, but every so often, the many stressors in your life overwhelm you and you can't hold it together anymore. You get TDOd, spend some time in the state hospital, get stabilized. You hadn't paid your rent/caused too much trouble/destroyed property/whatever, so you've been evicted from your overpriced, vermin infested room. Because of your mental illness, you've burned a LOT of bridges with landlords, and no one will rent to you. You have criminal charges pending, so you can't move into subsidized housing...

These are the people I work with. I have a master's in counseling, and I work for a public agency, with people with SMI, most of whom are homeless or about to be homeless. My salary is a whopping 27k a year, about a third of what I made when I worked in IT, before I went back to school. But despite the enormous pay cut, I love my job, and every day I'm reminded just how lucky I really am. Life can really suck. Bad.

You made it through med school, so it's a given that you're intelligent and work hard. You're well educated, and your job affords you plenty of status in the community--people might resent you, but it's because they'd like to be like you. You're generally capable of achieving just about anything you want in life. Whatever your salary, whatever your circumstances, you have much more going for you than most :)
 
We talk about a free market for entertainers and I think that is wonderful. Why not implement that for healthcare? “You need CABG? That will be $125,000. You can’t afford that out of pocket? Get a loan.”

I am so annoyed with people who b*tch that they can’t afford healthcare while they are smoking a pack of cigarettes and drinking a six pack of beer every day. That is about $8 per day or almost $3000 per year—maybe that would buy some healthcare coverage. I won’t even go into money spent on cell phones, satellite TV (anyone notice how even the worst looking residences always have a DirectTV dish), gambling, ammunition for their 15 firearms, motorcycle/ATV/camper payments and NASCAR and monster truck events.

I really believe the defensive medicine issue is very important. Doctors in Europe don’t have to worry about being sued! They can follow conservative standards of care that work ALMOST as well as our ultra-defensive standards where perfection is expected. The expectation of perfection leads to Americans expecting maximum healthcare and no expense spared for themselves and their family at any age and for any condition. Take a 75 year-old diabetic smoker with COPD to England and try to get CABG performed at an NHS facility . . . they will throw some meds at them, send them out the door and wish them luck. This kind of surgery is performed regularly everyday here in the States.

Many of the healthcare advances and new medications are created here, that is a huge, and in my opinion useful, expense.

We really need to look at ways to increase pay for preventative tests, exams and counseling. If you can bill for harassing a patient AGAIN that they need to exercise, eat and drink less and stop smoking more physicians will do it and eventually some patients will listen to some extent. If you get paid to make sure a patient gets their screening exams/labs/imaging done according to guidelines physicians will work harder to make it happen. These small efforts en masse could make a big difference in overall healthcare costs down the road. Maybe that is idealistic BS, but primary care providers need some way to increase compensation.

My last point: If you think physicians make too much money then go to medical school and become one. It is so easy to make so much money! What a get rich quick scam!

Yah! My 100th post!
 
We talk about a free market for entertainers and I think that is wonderful. Why not implement that for healthcare? "You need CABG? That will be $125,000. You can't afford that out of pocket? Get a loan."

I am so annoyed with people who b*tch that they can't afford healthcare while they are smoking a pack of cigarettes and drinking a six pack of beer every day. That is about $8 per day or almost $3000 per year—maybe that would buy some healthcare coverage. I won't even go into money spent on cell phones, satellite TV (anyone notice how even the worst looking residences always have a DirectTV dish), gambling, ammunition for their 15 firearms, motorcycle/ATV/camper payments and NASCAR and monster truck events.

I really believe the defensive medicine issue is very important. Doctors in Europe don't have to worry about being sued! They can follow conservative standards of care that work ALMOST as well as our ultra-defensive standards where perfection is expected. The expectation of perfection leads to Americans expecting maximum healthcare and no expense spared for themselves and their family at any age and for any condition. Take a 75 year-old diabetic smoker with COPD to England and try to get CABG performed at an NHS facility . . . they will throw some meds at them, send them out the door and wish them luck. This kind of surgery is performed regularly everyday here in the States.

Many of the healthcare advances and new medications are created here, that is a huge, and in my opinion useful, expense.

We really need to look at ways to increase pay for preventative tests, exams and counseling. If you can bill for harassing a patient AGAIN that they need to exercise, eat and drink less and stop smoking more physicians will do it and eventually some patients will listen to some extent. If you get paid to make sure a patient gets their screening exams/labs/imaging done according to guidelines physicians will work harder to make it happen. These small efforts en masse could make a big difference in overall healthcare costs down the road. Maybe that is idealistic BS, but primary care providers need some way to increase compensation.

My last point: If you think physicians make too much money then go to medical school and become one. It is so easy to make so much money! What a get rich quick scam!

Yah! My 100th post!

Did you see the House episode where House is seeing the guy without insurance. "No insurance? Wouldn't want to skimp on the essentials like mp3 players and watches."
 
Did you see the House episode where House is seeing the guy without insurance. "No insurance? Wouldn't want to skimp on the essentials like mp3 players and watches."

Nope, Scrubs is the only medical show I watch. I don't have cable so I rent it when it comes out on DVD. But that does sound funny.
 
Cap salary limits and not eliminate the financial burden? You're going to see brilliant people leave the field in droves. .


they already have.. do you know how many docs have left medicine ... and do you realize how many less people are appling to medical school..
 
Cap salary limits and not eliminate the financial burden? You're going to see brilliant people leave the field in droves. They're too smart and capable of doing anything else they wanted.

they already have.. do you know how many docs have left medicine ... and do you realize how many less people are appling to medical school..

So our future docs will just be dumb. Fitting since our future Americans will just be dumber. It's a downhill slide...
 
... and do you realize how many less people are appling to medical school?

Hasn't the number of applicants to med school reached record levels the last two years, especially last year?
 
they already have.. do you know how many docs have left medicine ... and do you realize how many less people are appling to medical school..

When in doubt, just make stuff up and sound like you know what you're talking about, right?
 
I honestly believe we are all being too paranoid and things will be just fine for docs for many decades.
 
Hey JackieTreehorn, nice marmot!
 
I honestly believe we are all being too paranoid and things will be just fine for docs for many decades.

Of course we will.

I also believe that, despite the bluster, none of the Rand-lovers here will ever have the cojones to tell their patients to pony-up cash before they'll treat them. Panda included.
 
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