doctors and pharmacists with accent

[Tinkerbell22]

Well, I figured that the two of them didn't go through hell in HS because of their accent, or been picked endlessly and made fun of mercilessly or been told to go back to their country, so they probably can't understand the pain their ignorance may be causing people.

I've actually been made fun of pretty badly for speaking perfect English. I've been called a "cracker" "stupid white girl" "dumb gringo" etc just because I have to apologize for not speaking another language that well. Keep in mind that I have a very Latin hyphenated last name (from both my mother's maiden name and father's last name). My grandparents were made fun of so badly that they vowed not to speak Spanish or Portuguese in the home after learning English, so needless to say I never learned those languages well.

I was simply agreeing with what nearly everyone else said about how unintelligible speech can be a problem in the health care field.

I can't speak for places like California, but here in Florida there are a lot of people who have no desire to ever learn English. That's fine with me as long as it's not hurting anyone else, but when it comes down to a profession that puts lives on the line, this can become an issue. My guess is that somewhere in the near future we will be more like Europe with regards to everyone knowing several different languages. I've traveled to various locations around Europe and Latin America and I always make an effort to learn some of the language, even if I don't have to because enough people know English. If I was choosing to LIVE in another country I would def. have enough respect for their culture to at least attempt to master the language.

With that said, I understand that completely banishing an accent is often extremely difficult if not impossible for some people, but I'm talking about those people who just make no effort at all to be intelligible. Besides I'm pretty sure that probably doesn't even apply to anyone here, with or without an accent.

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[MrBoba]

Anyone who has the audacity to say to they are tired of people coming into US and not speaking proper English, should really think twice before complaining about the name calling, when they called ignorant.

Was a simple mistake in word choice. That is all.

It's not as if I'm hating on all people who can't speak English without an accent. It is what it is. By the way, I think we are approaching this with a very black-and-white perspective. There is a large grey area of people who speak with an accent, yet are intelligible to a majority of others; it is not this group that I refer to in my previous posts. Don't you think I have friends from overseas who still speak with an accent? I was never one to make fun of them though, or "put them through hell in HS." My mother is also an immigrant with an accent. I reflect upon my previous posts now and apologize for any remarks that have conjured up feelings of resentment. It can be that it simply is not possible to remove a thick accent and I, as a compassionate listener and future practitioner of pharmacy, should be more accepting of it. Wishing to end this on a peaceful note,

Mr. Boba

 

[UES Girl]

I've actually been made fun of pretty badly for speaking perfect English. I've been called a "cracker" "stupid white girl" "dumb gringo" etc just because I have to apologize for not speaking another language that well. Keep in mind that I have a very Latin hyphenated last name (from both my mother's maiden name and father's last name). My grandparents were made fun of so badly that they vowed not to speak Spanish or Portuguese in the home after learning English, so needless to say I never learned those languages well.

I was simply agreeing with what nearly everyone else said about how unintelligible speech can be a problem in the health care field.

I can't speak for places like California, but here in Florida there are a lot of people who have no desire to ever learn English. That's fine with me as long as it's not hurting anyone else, but when it comes down to a profession that puts lives on the line, this can become an issue. My guess is that somewhere in the near future we will be more like Europe with regards to everyone knowing several different languages. I've traveled to various locations around Europe and Latin America and I always make an effort to learn some of the language, even if I don't have to because enough people know English. If I was choosing to LIVE in another country I would def. have enough respect for their culture to at least attempt to master the language.

With that said, I understand that completely banishing an accent is often extremely difficult if not impossible for some people, but I'm talking about those people who just make no effort at all to be intelligible. Besides I'm pretty sure that probably doesn't even apply to anyone here, with or without an accent.

So you are saying you have met health care professionals in Florida who have not mastered English and even more so refused to learn it completely? I haven't really met anyone like that. I don't even know how that would be possible if one wanted to get licensed, practice as a health care professional or let alone even tried getting admitted to professional school. In my class, everyone has extraordinary communication skills, people are extremely well spoken whether they have an accent or not. Most people speak multiple languages as well, myself included.

BTW, I don't know how the angry smile got in there, because I must have accidentally clicked on it

 

[No Time To Lift]

So you are saying you have met health care professionals in Florida who have not mastered English and even more so refused to learn it completely? I haven't really met anyone like that. I don't even know how that would be possible if one wanted to get licensed, practice as a health care professional or let alone even tried getting admitted to professional school. In my class, everyone has extraordinary communication skills, people are extremely well spoken whether they have an accent or not. Most people speak multiple languages as well, myself included.

BTW, I don't know how the angry smile got in there, because I must have accidentally clicked on it

I met doctors that could not speak properly. I had no idea what was said, and I was the freaking patient. And no, I am not ignorant to different pronunciations, I listen very carefully, and I still had no idea what was going on. When asked them to repeat I got a dirty look and the doctors said it even faster. I am a foreigner and I think that if you show up in someone else's country, respect their laws, customs, and language by practicing, trying to implement and so on. Immigrants submerge themselves in their own little circles and end up socializing only with people of similar origin and then they have the audacity to demand to be accepted or for american born citizens to learn their language. My wife is in premed and after volunteering in an emergency room in a trauma 1 hospital she told me many stories where foreigners would come in and expect to be understood. That's unnacceptable.

 

[Carboxide]

I met doctors that could not speak properly. I had no idea what was said, and I was the freaking patient. And no, I am not ignorant to different pronunciations, I listen very carefully, and I still had no idea what was going on. When asked them to repeat I got a dirty look and the doctors said it even faster.

This has been my experience as well. I think people with very heavy accents get tired of repeating themselves and tend to get annoyed with it. However, it's not my fault. If someone did that to me when they were counseling me on my prescription, I would nod and walk away whether I heard them or not...and I KNOW I'm not alone in that regard.

 

[manutdmax]

all the talk here DOES NOT MAKE ANY SENSE TO ME. THE BLAME SHOULD BE ON THE ADMISSION COMMITTEE WHO ADMITS PEOPLE CANT TALK ENGLISH AND LEAVE PURE AND EXCELLENT PEOPLE WAITING..IT IS VERY SAD THAT MANY MANY SCHOOLS GO BY THE NUMBERS ON PCAT AND GPA AND THEY DO NOT CONSIDER OTHER FACTORS FOR ADMISSION..VERY SAD

 

[litetigre]

I think this matter is an interesting topic to discuss. May I suggest everyone refrain from name calling. We are all professionals. Everyone cheers. I quit debating on forum

 

[No Time To Lift]

I think Americans are too accepting of immigrants. This whole discrimination issue is so overblown. As I have mentioned before, I am an immigrant so I spent a lot of time around other Russian immigrants. The general opinion is that the Americans are lesser then them, that the Americans aren't as smart and so on. That assumption was so ludicrous that I stopped spending time with any Russians other than my family that did not share the common opinion.

 

[confettiflyer]

I think Americans are too accepting of immigrants. This whole discrimination issue is so overblown. As I have mentioned before, I am an immigrant so I spent a lot of time around other Russian immigrants. The general opinion is that the Americans are lesser then them, that the Americans aren't as smart and so on. That assumption was so ludicrous that I stopped spending time with any Russians other than my family that did not share the common opinion.

I studied this phenomenon ("moral superiority") in my undergrad fairly extensively, it's pretty common among immigrants who are shunned/discriminated by the rest of society. The idea that the natives of the country you're in are "less" than you is simply a response in-kind.

For example, a lot of Asian immigrants + families are shunned by American society at-large (not necessarily overtly the way Blacks were pre-civil rights era, but on a subtle basis*), so they turn inward--hence the coalescing of chinatowns, koreatowns, little saigons, etc... It's a place where they can be who they are and eat what they want, and not have the local white/etc... population judge/intrude.

These shunned/discriminated populations then claim "moral superiority" just as "outsiders" have claimed their standards as "less, dirty, unclean, inferior." This includes areas in education ("we value college and they don't."), sexuality ("we don't sleep around like they do."^^), and familial relations ("we don't throw our kids on the street when they turn 18.")

What I studied was how 2nd generation children navigate these claims of "moral superiority" while assimilating to society at-large. Pretty interesting stuff.

^^Specifically, with sexuality.... "Historically, the sexuality of racialized women has been systematically demonized and denigrated by dominant oppressor groups to justify and bolster nationalist movements, colonialism, and/or racism. But...racialized groups also look down on the morality of white women as a strategy of resistance--a means of asserting a morally superior public face to the dominant society" (Espiritu, 158).


*what i mean by covert (vs. overt) discrimination includes things like....interracial dating and the lack of acceptance from parents/family on both sides of the aisle so-to-speak, unwritten "country club type" laws that bar non-caucasian from certain establishments, health department intrusion over indigenous cuisine (debatable),

Source material if you're curious: Espiritu, Yen Le. "Home Bound..." Berkeley, CA: University of California Press; 2003. Was also professor for class.

 

[SHC1984]

I think Americans are too accepting of immigrants. This whole discrimination issue is so overblown. As I have mentioned before, I am an immigrant so I spent a lot of time around other Russian immigrants. The general opinion is that the Americans are lesser then them, that the Americans aren't as smart and so on. That assumption was so ludicrous that I stopped spending time with any Russians other than my family that did not share the common opinion.

Americans are very accepting and thats a good thing. I had a friend in college that was Asian. She was BORN in the USA, but she was Asian. She went back to teach English in Taiwan one year and she noticed that her salary was a lot lower than a Causasian person's. She ask her boss why and her boss told her, "well, you are Asian, so your English will never be as good as a Causasian's, so you shouldn't be pay the same." She was born in the USA and her English is actually better than most Americans, but NO ONE in that school will believe that her English is good b/c she isn't a white girl. The principal doesn't believe her, the parent's of the children doesn't believe her...EVERYONE thought her English was inferior b/c she wasn't white! And she told her boss that he is discrimmating against her, and her boss say what??? He has never heard of the word discrimmation before. Only American's follow that word and know what that word actually means, people from other countries never heard of that D word!

 

[UES Girl]

I think Americans are too accepting of immigrants. This whole discrimination issue is so overblown. As I have mentioned before, I am an immigrant so I spent a lot of time around other Russian immigrants. The general opinion is that the Americans are lesser then them, that the Americans aren't as smart and so on. That assumption was so ludicrous that I stopped spending time with any Russians other than my family that did not share the common opinion.

Who exactly are you hanging out with? Maybe it's just YOUR friends and family circle, but it is certainly not how it is in general.

I have not encountered this attitude amongst any of my friends or family members and I've been a prominent member of the local Russian community in this city.

You generally seem to have a really poor perception of immigrants overall and perhaps even project your own thoughts onto them. Example: you mentioned how I commented in this thread because I felt inferior, when in reality I was commenting because I found some of the statements made to be ignorant. It's good to remember, that while you can make a sweeping generalization about an entire group of people like that, you are still just a measly n= 1 and therefore have no authority to speak on behalf of the entire group of people.

To get discussion of this thread going in the right direction: so what exactly are you proposing to do about the health care professionals with language difficulties?

To prevent everyone with unintelligible accent from practicing medicine/dentistry/pharmacy ? How are you going to enforce this exactly? How will you determine what level can be constituted as unintelligible?

 

[SHC1984]

To get discussion of this thread going in the right direction: so what exactly are you proposing to do about the health care professionals with language difficulties?

To prevent everyone with unintelligible accent from practicing medicine/dentistry/pharmacy ? How are you going to enforce this exactly? How will you determine what level can be constituted as unintelligible?

The only people that can enforce this is the admission's committee. Most schools only look at the GPA and PCAT. Whoever has the highest gets accepted...and some of the people with high stats might have a thick accent. Most people with thick accents are very smart, they are just from a different country and can't speak a language that is new to them. Also maybe instead of just passing the easy Naplex, maybe ADD in a fairly diffcult English exam/communication skills exam. Make it diffcult and there will be no more problems with language barriers.

 

[Pharm2love]

I've bumped into heavy accent professors / doctors before, and I think when trying to understand them, I become less hesitant and more patient. If I face a heavy accent doctor, I would expect a hard-to-understand conversation. There are many doctors, pharmacists out there, we do have the choice to request/choose who we want to be treated with; if we don't want that particular doctor, then simply find another doctor. I think if we crutinize a problem, it can become as big as our head wants it to be.

 

[UES Girl]

The only people that can enforce this is the admission's committee. Most schools only look at the GPA and PCAT. Whoever has the highest gets accepted...and some of the people with high stats might have a thick accent. Most people with thick accents are very smart, they are just from a different country and can't speak a language that is new to them. Also maybe instead of just passing the easy Naplex, maybe ADD in a fairly diffcult English exam/communication skills exam. Make it diffcult and there will be no more problems with language barriers.

The reason I posed these questions is because while everyone seems to want to have a productive discussion on this matter, however, I don't see much of that. What I see are rants and non-productive bashing on both health care professionals and patients ( time to lift's comments about patients coming in and expected to be understood) who do not speak English perfectly.

So to make the discussion more productive: I'm asking what do you propose we do about the health care professionals ? what do you propose we do about the patients since even the patients who don't converse in perfect english seem to be bothersome to some of you ?

 

[busyizzy]

I think Americans are too accepting of immigrants. This whole discrimination issue is so overblown. As I have mentioned before, I am an immigrant so I spent a lot of time around other Russian immigrants. The general opinion is that the Americans are lesser then them, that the Americans aren't as smart and so on. That assumption was so ludicrous that I stopped spending time with any Russians other than my family that did not share the common opinion.

But you're saying Americans just ACCEPT all immigrants ... and don't feel superior to them? How about comments in THIS thread even that immigrants should "go back to their country if they don't learn English?" That is a feeling of superiority - that they know English and the immigrants don't, that this is THEIR land and not the immigrants' so they should GTFO.

I think everyone tends to think highly of "their group" ... you know, the group you see yourself in. You don't want to think yourself inferior, you have to be SUPERIOR to make yourself feel good. I think you should open your eyes and turn on the news. You'll see that there are many Americans who feel superior and act out on these feelings. I'm not saying immigrants' are innocent of acting this way; my point is it's not limited to immigrants and Americans are not free of this behavior.

 

[No Time To Lift]

I am not trying to start a war here, but it seems that I have, so let's clear some things up.

1. I am an immigrant myself.

2. It is very true that when immigrants are shunned they fight back by stating that they are better.

3. Arguing the above fact is idiotic.

4. Health professionals should be easily understood.

5. The reason this problem exists is because Americans are too afraid to say: "Hey, I can't understand you!" That's a big no no. Nobody wants to look bad, so doctors like Dr Chugh From Hackettstown NJ go on practicing while no one understands what he is saying.

6. There is nothing wrong with accents.

7. Americans should feel superior to immigrants. This is America. American money, american welfare, american healthcare and so on. I am an immigrant and I will be the first one to stand up and say that YES Americans are superior to us (immigrants). This is their land, not mine. I strive to be more American every day so some day I could say that this is MY land. Many Americans lost family members to defend this country, and one only defends something that's his own. I am not saying that an American should say go back to your country or harass immigrants, but I personally make immigrants that have no respect for America/Americans feel very ****ty about themselves because disrespecting Americans while living on their land, and using their tax money (many immigrants get welfare/free healthcare) is ludicrous.

 

[No Time To Lift]

Who exactly are you hanging out with? Maybe it's just YOUR friends and family circle, but it is certainly not how it is in general.

I have been to many states and met many Russians, its all the same. I've also noticed that about Hispanics and so on. Also Moroccans, French......


It is a general statement, like teenagers are bad drivers, not necessarily true for everyone in the mentioned subgroup of society.

 

[No Time To Lift]

( time to lift's comments about patients coming in and expected to be understood) who do not speak English perfectly.

Oh no, don't give me that. Have you ever worked in an Emergency room? In our area mainly Hispanics walk in the emergency room with a stomach ache (they use the emergency room as a family doctor) and they get angry when no one speaks Spanish. I am going to quote one patient that walked in "Why you no speak Spanish?" I am completely serious. Some act appalled that their language isn't on an MD/DOs list of things to learn.

What's so hard about getting an interpreter? My parents always do it.

 

[No Time To Lift]

I studied this phenomenon ("moral superiority") in my undergrad fairly extensively, it's pretty common among immigrants who are shunned/discriminated by the rest of society. The idea that the natives of the country you're in are "less" than you is simply a response in-kind.

For example, a lot of Asian immigrants + families are shunned by American society at-large (not necessarily overtly the way Blacks were pre-civil rights era, but on a subtle basis*), so they turn inward--hence the coalescing of chinatowns, koreatowns, little saigons, etc... It's a place where they can be who they are and eat what they want, and not have the local white/etc... population judge/intrude.

These shunned/discriminated populations then claim "moral superiority" just as "outsiders" have claimed their standards as "less, dirty, unclean, inferior." This includes areas in education ("we value college and they don't."), sexuality ("we don't sleep around like they do."^^), and familial relations ("we don't throw our kids on the street when they turn 18.")

What I studied was how 2nd generation children navigate these claims of "moral superiority" while assimilating to society at-large. Pretty interesting stuff.

^^Specifically, with sexuality.... "Historically, the sexuality of racialized women has been systematically demonized and denigrated by dominant oppressor groups to justify and bolster nationalist movements, colonialism, and/or racism. But...racialized groups also look down on the morality of white women as a strategy of resistance--a means of asserting a morally superior public face to the dominant society" (Espiritu, 158).


*what i mean by covert (vs. overt) discrimination includes things like....interracial dating and the lack of acceptance from parents/family on both sides of the aisle so-to-speak, unwritten "country club type" laws that bar non-caucasian from certain establishments, health department intrusion over indigenous cuisine (debatable),

Source material if you're curious: Espiritu, Yen Le. "Home Bound..." Berkeley, CA: University of California Press; 2003. Was also professor for class.

I used to see this everyday. I was so disgusted that I left my narrow minded friends and moved on. Immigrants should stop pitying themselves. I've heard hundreds of times how American kids are dumber and how American colleges are easier and how American girls are slutty and so on. I abandoned that mindset and embraced the American society. Now happily married to an American girl.

 

[pharm B]

Please keep the subject matter respectful, or this thread will be locked.

 

[ChainHeal]

7. Americans should feel superior to immigrants. This is America. American money, american welfare, american healthcare and so on. I am an immigrant and I will be the first one to stand up and say that YES Americans are superior to us (immigrants). This is their land, not mine. I strive to be more American every day so some day I could say that this is MY land. Many Americans lost family members to defend this country, and one only defends something that's his own. I am not saying that an American should say go back to your country or harass immigrants, but I personally make immigrants that have no respect for America/Americans feel very ****ty about themselves because disrespecting Americans while living on their land, and using their tax money (many immigrants get welfare/free healthcare) is ludicrous.

wow just wow...

how did you go about doing that?

 

[inquirer89]

Man I wish we had a rep system here...so many of you would have my negs...

 

[No Time To Lift]

wow just wow...

how did you go about doing that?

I tell them that they are living in a country that's not their own, that they go to schools funded by property tax payed by Americans, that they have no right to be here, but Americans give them the opportunity to be here and build a better life. I don't walk around telling them that they are s**t, because that's not a fact, I state only facts to try to change their minds regarding Americans. When they say that American education is ****, then I ask them, if Americans are so dumb and undereducated, then why are they so prosperous? Get where I am going with this?

 

[busyizzy]

7. Americans should feel superior to immigrants. This is America. American money, american welfare, american healthcare and so on. I am an immigrant and I will be the first one to stand up and say that YES Americans are superior to us (immigrants). This is their land, not mine. I strive to be more American every day so some day I could say that this is MY land. Many Americans lost family members to defend this country, and one only defends something that's his own. I am not saying that an American should say go back to your country or harass immigrants, but I personally make immigrants that have no respect for America/Americans feel very ****ty about themselves because disrespecting Americans while living on their land, and using their tax money (many immigrants get welfare/free healthcare) is ludicrous.

You know.... that's exactly the attitude of many people who commit hate crimes.... They feel they are "better" than the "other" people.

 

[pharm B]

Discussion has veered off-topic and into hateful discussion.

Locked.