Doctor Nurse (NP). Does it matter?

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I frequently run into problems in the ER with pts who see midlevels as PCPs. When it's time to admit them they tell me their "doctor" is so and so. Usually I'm not familiar with the name because it's a midlevel so I try to look it up. Since they are a midlevel they don't have privileges in the hospital so I can't find them and they wind up getting admitted to the on call. Even if the pt knows that their PCP is a midlevel if they don't know who the supervising doctor is I can't place them properly and they wind up going to the on call.

My point is no that I'm denouncing midlevels as PCPs but there's clearly a need for less confusion than more confusion. Midlevels introducing themselves with "I'm you PA/APN. My supervisor is Dr. X. If you go to the hospital tell them you are Dr. X's patient." Is a good idea. Midlevels introducing themselves as Dr. X is a bad idea.

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DRGIGGLES said:
solutions? well, we should lobby. that hasn't gotten us very far though. i think a far more effective strategy would be to start playing economic hardball ourselves. (this is exactly what's going to happen anyway when enough docs start feeling threatened.) don't teach their students, don't hire the graduates, refuse admitting rights when they start clamoring for them, don't make referrals to them...put the blinding spotlight of science on them to really look into their pt outcomes...and finally market the hell out of ourselves. is this cut-throat and "ungentlemanly"? you bet. but hey, they're bringing the fight to us. and i don't know any group of more cut-throat mfers than us. might as well use that to our advantage.

holy cow! i re-read my post just now...bitter much??? still i'll float it out there. happy easter!!!

-drgiggles

Awesome post!!!! This is certainly a call to action.

The position statement hid the fact that they wanted to expand scope of practice, but the FAQ from colombia makes it abundantly clear what the intentions are.

I think we are dead on with out interpretation of this scary situation. Any NPs or nurses out there who want clarify this situation and tell us that you don't want to be docs.

Go to medical school and residency!!! That's the system that's in place, so use it!
 
Let's just make all degrees "Doctorate" level degrees. This way everyone can have their feel good doctoral degree. Those Doctors of Janitorial and Dietary services can begin to think they can diagnose/prescribe/ operate, too.

As some of the above posters mentioned, we younger docs need to be politically active and lobby to put the brakes on all of this expansion in scope by all the doctor wanna bees.
 
Furrball said:
They go to graduate school, take courses, write and defend a scholarly dissertation. I do not know what level of research they do. At the end they receive their PhD. It doesn't change their scope of practice other than they often are professors at nursing schools or in their area of study for their PhD.

While a PhD in nursing or any other subject is worth discussion, Im hoping to gain feedback a the new degree that all graduate nursing stundents (particularly NPs) will be required for entry to their profession by 2015. They call this the Doctrate of Nursing Practice (DNP or DrNP).

This is the degree that they will get them
"Independant...Practice", "independent reimbursement", and "Admiting" privileges.

also
"The DrNP, or clinical doctorate, prepares the graduate to practice independently with the most complex patients"

Can you belive this! If not go to the reference listed above.

If you dont think they will expand their scope of practice, remember that in many states the board of nursing determines their scope of practice. Since nurses make up the largest group in helathcare they have the power to lobby hard.
 
If I may be speak boldly, Unless something is done about this some day their will be three types of physicians in the USA MD/DO/DrNP. I SHIIT YOU NOT! :eek:

Others have tried to get the title physican right? What is to stop them? They will have at least 8yr of postsecondary training including a Residensey (1yr), give medical treatments (DX,RX,Procedures), and be called doctor. Why not promote them to being a new type of physcian. We already have two types in America so why not three?

What thinkist thou?

FYI. not trying to start anything with the DOs.
 
red-rat said:
If I may be speak boldly, Unless something is done about this some day their will be three types of physicians in the USA MD/DO/DrNP. I SHIIT YOU NOT! :eek:

Others have tried to get the title physican right? What is to stop them? They will have at least 8yr of postsecondary training including a Residensey (1yr), give medical treatments (DX,RX,Procedures), and be called doctor. Why not promote them to being a new type of physcian. We already have two types in America so why not three?

What thinkist thou?

FYI. not trying to start anything with the DOs.

We thinkst it suckist... hehe

I think the MD vs DO is completely diferent from this. There many opinion regarding this, but most will agree that DO have gone through adequate training to do what they do.

The DNP... doctor of nursing to me is an oxymoron in the clinical setting. Most patients don't even know what it really takes be a board certified physician.

If I didn't know any better, as a patient I would think to myself... "oh, what is an doctor of nursing degree. Well, she must have been nurse, then went back to medical school and gone through the same rigorous training to become a doctor. Why else would this nurse be called doctor?.... "
 
JMK2005 said:
We thinkst it suckist... hehe

Thank god for SDN!

Anyway, I've followed this thread with much interest. I cannot contribute any more insight; it seems that there are quite a few people here who are much more well informed than I am on this particular subject. Despite my inability to bring some closure to this conflict, I'll nevertheless throw in some more opinion.

The advanced practice nurse is an entity that will stick with us for quite some time. Many professional physician societies have authored position statements on this issue, and much confusion still exists. I know ANPs, have worked with ANPs, and have listened to countless debates surrounding their utility. There are several things on which, I hope, most of us can agree:

1. Like it or not, the lack of access to primary heath care is a primary motivation for the existence of APNs. You just can't get docs to spend three years in residency, accrue thousands in debt, and then make them practice in a less than lucrative clinical setting. APNs have far less debt at the end of their education; once let loose in the healthcare setting, medicare reimburses them at approximately 80% of physician services.

2. APNs currently function as physician-extenders. In the emergency department setting, there is simply not enough providers to diagnose and treat patients with minor complaints. Nearly every busy urban or suburban ED employs APNs or midlevels to assist with the ever increasing case load.

3. APNs do enjoy a certain degree of independence. When these strategically and politically motivated peeps began requiring masters level degrees, they lobbied state boards for a "license." This distinguishes them from PA's (mere 'assistants') and outlines the future foundation for independent practice. Currently, APNs are still limited by protocol and physician oversight.

Ok, you might say. So what? Where is the controversy? The problem is that secondary gain is alive and well. APNs and the nursing leadership have excellent political clout and representation. They lobby congress with the apparent benefits of lower provider costs and increased health care access. The crazed ambitions of some APNs, however, are less than subtle. In many states, there is discussion about having midlevels qualify as primary care 'physicians' on insurance plans. Since a family ARNP's scope of practice is similar to that of your typical family physician, then why all the fuss? I know this paragraph has invoked generalities to emphasize some key points, but it is important to realize where each side is coming from. ARNPs are no longer educated to assist with the delivery of medical care... many schools advocate for total patent management and practice independence. It is not inconceivable that ANPs will achieve parity with primary care physicians in the near future with respect to scope of practice, the oh-so-important title of doctor, and salary. Why is this pursuit of power such a bad idea for those of us on the MD/DO side of the aisle? Those of us who are completing traditional medical degrees have an incredibly high debt burden and continue to face political and economic challenges with reimbursement. An unopposed APN lobby will make it more difficult for physicians to achieve both personal and professional success in primary care fields.

It is vitally important, therefore, to educate our congresspeople about the educational differences between APNs and physicians. Though many mid-levels possess diagnostic and clinical skills comparable to physicians, they are simply not trained in the broad scope of patient care. APNs do not complete residencies and do not suffer through the same amount of preparatory coursework. Biochemistry, immunology, and the thousand other -ologies might not be necessary for the majority of primary care patient complaints. For the zebras and for the medicallly complex patients, however, a physician is best prepared to address mutlifaceted concerns. Any monkey can be trained to insert a chest tube or intubate. To discuss the indications, contraindications, potential complications, and risks of tube thoracostomy, however, is the responsibility of the physician. This entire issue would be non existent if both sides of this aisle were solely concerned with patient benefit. Nurses want more money, power, and prestige for their profession. Doctors, too, have similar aspirations. Until the APN lobby requires four years of rigorous pre-doctoral nursing education and then mandates a minimum of three post graduate years in specialty training, their educational background cannot be considered equivalent. Call the APNs doctor, permit them to manage patients, increase their scope of practice, but do not lobby for the disappearance of primary care physicians.

To conclude, nurses and their advanced practice counterparts are a vital part of this nation's healthcare system and should be encouraged in all educational pursuits. A doctoral-level provider will probably learn at least something that will make the additional years worthwhile. As long as the preparation of the Dr. Nurse professional is not considered equivalent to the training of an MD/DO, there is little problem. Unfortunately, discussion over this issue is far more complex.

Strategies for proper resolution probably revolve around the issues of physician oversight, scope of practice, and reimbursement. Whether they are called, "Dr." in the clinical setting matters little. Just like the current malpractice dilemma, this confusing issue underscores the importance of political action. Doctors must advocate for themselves and educate lawmakers about important differences with respect to undergraduate and post-doctoral education. The AMA,the AOA, and other professional societies must necessarily establish a mutually friendly dialogue between themselves and the nursing profession... a dialogue that has the patient's best interest foremost in mind.

An easier way to bring this dilemma to abrupt closure might be to grant these APNs the same privileges and then charge them the same malpractice rates. :) What an ingenious solution! How would the APNs/DrRNs/DNSc's deal with 50-100,000 of annual malpractice premiums?

Always an alternative,

push
 
pushinepi2 said:
Thank god for SDN!

...An easier way to bring this dilemma to abrupt closure might be to grant these APNs the same privileges and then charge them the same malpractice rates. :) What an ingenious solution! How would the APNs/DrRNs/DNSc's deal with 50-100,000 of annual malpractice premiums?

Always an alternative,

push

Very informative... thank you for balanced assessment of the issue.

Question... So, if APN don't carry malpractice, who is liable when something goes bad?
 
JMK2005 said:
If I didn't know any better, as a patient I would think to myself... "oh, what is an doctor of nursing degree. Well, she must have been nurse, then went back to medical school and gone through the same rigorous training to become a doctor. Why else would this nurse be called doctor?.... "

I agree completely.

But are we really sure that the Board of Nursing controls their scope of practice? I mean...if they can practice COMPLETELY independently they have ceased to be NURSES. There has to be some kind of by partisan (or by-professional) group made up of nurses and physicians or just physicians that holds their scope of practice in right?

If not...then theres going to be trouble... :eek:
 
pushinepi2 said:
How would the APNs/DrRNs/DNSc's deal with 50-100,000 of annual malpractice premiums?

They would lobby for higher reimbersment. Equal title would eventually move toward equal pay.
 
White coats as a sign of hospital status are a joke.

The simplest solution, in addition to taking the political-legal route, is to encourage/force all hospitals and private practices to adopt some form of color code based on your function. This will also save hospitals money in the long-run since you can only get scrubs related to your position in the hospital. Create a disincentive/punishment for people wearing scrubs of a color that is not their position (also, create some colors that don't mean anything, so that the dorky pre-meds can wear them and be laughed at by the real doctors)

For example, if you're an MD, you're dark blue. Residents are light blue. Medical students are brown (since we get shat on anyway). If you're a nurse, you're light green. If you're a tech, you're black.

Sure, it will look dorky like Star Trek, but if this pattern is emulated in all hospitals (and on TV shows as well), people will start go get the idea that Dark Blue (or whatever color) = MD.

In addition to eliminating confusion, this will also be useful in emergency situations where you need to quickly find a doctor or nurse or whatnot.

Simple, cheap, and effective IMHO. Any comments?
 
JMK2005 said:
Very informative... thank you for balanced assessment of the issue.

Question... So, if APN don't carry malpractice, who is liable when something goes bad?

Excellent question. Fact is, current APNs are capable of independent practice but limit their dx/rx to what is described in the mutually agreed-upon protocol (between ARNP and MD/DO). Current APN malpractice premiums can run anywhere between 1500-5000/year depending upon the specialty. I can't cite actual numbers, but my ARNP friends in FP and Derm have similar premiums. Since APNs technically render care as per, "protocol," the physician is still ultimately liable for mistakes. Even if the law found an individual APN culpable of medical malpractice or negligence, what sense would it make to go after the APN? The MINIMUM insurance physicians carry is about 250,000!!! There is no question that lawyers go after the large pockets. Ever hear about paramedics getting successfully sued? Hardly. The medical director is a much more attractive and responsible target. This discussion will get much more interesting when "independent" nurses render "independent" treatment. Reimbursement and liability premiums will necessarily soar into the stratosphere.

I'd love for some APNs to jump on this.. maybe we can stir the proverbial chili pot on that forum?

-pUsH
 
DRGIGGLES said:
solutions? well, we should lobby. that hasn't gotten us very far though. i think a far more effective strategy would be to start playing economic hardball ourselves. (this is exactly what's going to happen anyway when enough docs start feeling threatened.) don't teach their students, don't hire the graduates, refuse admitting rights when they start clamoring for them, don't make referrals to them...put the blinding spotlight of science on them to really look into their pt outcomes...and finally market the hell out of ourselves. is this cut-throat and "ungentlemanly"? you bet. but hey, they're bringing the fight to us. and i don't know any group of more cut-throat mfers than us. might as well use that to our advantage.

holy cow! i re-read my post just now...bitter much??? still i'll float it out there. happy easter!!!

-drgiggles

Awesome. This is great. The only problem is that nurses must be kept out of the hospital administration. In many cases, this is too late. Nurses stick together more than doctors do. It's insane. My question is this: How do we get nurses out of positions of power within the administration once they are there?
 
Fantasy Sports said:
White coats as a sign of hospital status are a joke.

The simplest solution, in addition to taking the political-legal route, is to encourage/force all hospitals and private practices to adopt some form of color code based on your function. This will also save hospitals money in the long-run since you can only get scrubs related to your position in the hospital. Create a disincentive/punishment for people wearing scrubs of a color that is not their position (also, create some colors that don't mean anything, so that the dorky pre-meds can wear them and be laughed at by the real doctors)

For example, if you're an MD, you're dark blue. Residents are light blue. Medical students are brown (since we get shat on anyway). If you're a nurse, you're light green. If you're a tech, you're black.

Simple, cheap, and effective IMHO. Any comments?


Anyone else have a flash of "The Handmaid's Tale"? Or maybe I just read too much Margaret Atwood...
 
GeneGoddess said:
Anyone else have a flash of "The Handmaid's Tale"? Or maybe I just read too much Margaret Atwood...
Actually this is pretty close to how things look at Mayo Scottsdale. Everyone but the suit-wearing residents is assigned a color based on position and department. As a nurse I initially chafed at the blue-blue I had to wear, but as a traveler it made knowing who was Rads vs. lab vs. housekeeping a lot easier.
I really liked the Grey the EM docs sported so I applied to med school :D .


On the other hand...at another hospital, on another assignement, I called a person doc for about six hours my first shift due to her long white coat. She never corrected me and it was only at a mid-shift meds check that I learned she was one of my nursing peers. :rolleyes:
 
How independent can a DrNP be? Remember, to gain privileges at a hospital, one usually needs board certification of some type.

If they're obtaining these privileges by "co-management", then that's not really independence. If they're truly independent, then they've the place of a newly-graduated medical student awaiting residency training, which is to say, not too useful.
 
fuegorama said:
Actually this is pretty close to how things look at Mayo Scottsdale. Everyone but the suit-wearing residents is assigned a color based on position and department. As a nurse I initially chafed at the blue-blue I had to wear, but as a traveler it made knowing who was Rads vs. lab vs. housekeeping a lot easier.
I really liked the Grey the EM docs sported so I applied to med school :D .


On the other hand...at another hospital, on another assignement, I called a person doc for about six hours my first shift due to her long white coat. She never corrected me and it was only at a mid-shift meds check that I learned she was one of my nursing peers. :rolleyes:

feugorama... as a nurse in the past, what is your take on the DNP degree and also the broader issue of nursing scope of pratice?
 
Well, this is my first time visiting any of the message boards here. I am a nurse (go ahead, attack me). I was just speaking with another nurse about Dr. "behavior" and I actually defended the doctor in this conversation. My friend advised me to visit these boards to see if I felt the same way about "doctors" after reading a few posts. I am shocked and disappointed. I thought surely in the year 2005, we had made more progress than this!! This debate over who is the "Dr." is ridiculous. If everyone in the medical field would stop concentrating on who wears the white coat, maybe patients would be getting better care and Dr.s would be getting sued LESS. Nurses, Doctors, and anyone else involved in patient care should be focused on the patient....not on who has more power. Don't assume that all nurses want to be doctors. Some of us choose to be nurses because we enjoy caring for our patients and having more than 10 minutes to spend with them. That does not mean that we are less educated than doctors. We just choose to use our education in a different way! And.......many patients are choosing to see Nurse Practitioners because the NPs take the time to actually TALK to them. The patient feels like someone finally cares. Doctors can only blame themselves for that. There are great doctors and there are great advanced practice nurses. The patient doesn't care what title the person has or if they are wearing a white coat. The patient just wants the best care possible. If medical professionals would start respecting each other and stop behaving like children, maybe patients WOULD get the best care possible.
 
oh smiley, yes there is some bitterness in seeing people who haven't completed MD and residency feign a physician or attain the same privileges as one. I'm not sure people who have not gone through the academic boot camp that starts in undergrad and continues through residency can understand the amount of challenges, mental and physical stamina, delayed gratification, torture and time required to accomplish this distinction, so yes, to us it is a little more important than to an outside observer.
 
smiley2 said:
Well, this is my first time visiting any of the message boards here. I am a nurse (go ahead, attack me). I was just speaking with another nurse about Dr. "behavior" and I actually defended the doctor in this conversation. My friend advised me to visit these boards to see if I felt the same way about "doctors" after reading a few posts. I am shocked and disappointed. I thought surely in the year 2005, we had made more progress than this!! This debate over who is the "Dr." is ridiculous. If everyone in the medical field would stop concentrating on who wears the white coat, maybe patients would be getting better care and Dr.s would be getting sued LESS. Nurses, Doctors, and anyone else involved in patient care should be focused on the patient....not on who has more power. Don't assume that all nurses want to be doctors. Some of us choose to be nurses because we enjoy caring for our patients and having more than 10 minutes to spend with them. That does not mean that we are less educated than doctors. We just choose to use our education in a different way! And.......many patients are choosing to see Nurse Practitioners because the NPs take the time to actually TALK to them. The patient feels like someone finally cares. Doctors can only blame themselves for that. There are great doctors and there are great advanced practice nurses. The patient doesn't care what title the person has or if they are wearing a white coat. The patient just wants the best care possible. If medical professionals would start respecting each other and stop behaving like children, maybe patients WOULD get the best care possible.

Hi smiley2,

Thanks for posting with the understanding that this would be unfriendly territory. I think most of us respect nurses and appreciate their care for the patient. Medicine is a team effort with the end goal to take care of the patients. Everyone has a specified role. It seems that the role of the nurse (or rather advance nurse practioner) is changing in such a way that it is assuming more of the physicians' role. Eventually ANP and PCP will be doing the same job but with different training.

Are we mistaken?

If we are wrong, can you describe the role of nurses to use??? because what we are hearing does not fit with my view of what a nurse should be doing.

If we are correct that ANPs and PCPs will assume a similar role in the care of the patient, then the public needs to know the training and qualifications involved in becoming ANPs vs becoming a family doc, general internist, or pediatrician.

I think the comparison will speak for itself. The public needs to be aware of the differences before they CHOOSE to see their nurse practioner. Who would you choose if you need someone to manage your chronic disease such as diabetes... admit you to the hospital if necessary and manage your complications????... Hmmmm...
 
What kind of board certification does an NP need to practice independently as a PCP?

In order to become equivalent to MDs, the DO schools adjusted their program to have their students take the same board steps, take (more or less) the same classes and serve the same amount of years of slavery in residence as the MDs. Because of this, MDs generally regard DOs as their equals nowadays. Yet it seems like NP programs do not require anything near this level of rigour, and yet, their graduates can increasingly fill the role of a PCP just like a MD or DO. Or am I missing something?

I'm entering med school and am interested in primary care. However, the situation for the IM/FP physician is looking increasingly bleak. No wonder so many other students I know are heading towards the specialties instead.
 
I will be the first mofo to get in line to testify against one of these so called DNPs when they f*** up. I am against docs who testify against other docs but I will certainly make sure these clows get nailed in court if they choose to play docs without the training.
 
smiley2 said:
Well, this is my first time visiting any of the message boards here. I am a nurse (go ahead, attack me). I was just speaking with another nurse about Dr. "behavior" and I actually defended the doctor in this conversation. My friend advised me to visit these boards to see if I felt the same way about "doctors" after reading a few posts. I am shocked and disappointed. I thought surely in the year 2005, we had made more progress than this!! This debate over who is the "Dr." is ridiculous. If everyone in the medical field would stop concentrating on who wears the white coat, maybe patients would be getting better care and Dr.s would be getting sued LESS. Nurses, Doctors, and anyone else involved in patient care should be focused on the patient....not on who has more power. Don't assume that all nurses want to be doctors. Some of us choose to be nurses because we enjoy caring for our patients and having more than 10 minutes to spend with them. That does not mean that we are less educated than doctors. We just choose to use our education in a different way! And.......many patients are choosing to see Nurse Practitioners because the NPs take the time to actually TALK to them. The patient feels like someone finally cares. Doctors can only blame themselves for that. There are great doctors and there are great advanced practice nurses. The patient doesn't care what title the person has or if they are wearing a white coat. The patient just wants the best care possible. If medical professionals would start respecting each other and stop behaving like children, maybe patients WOULD get the best care possible.

Actually, I agree with you. Nurses and doctors should be fighting with each other. We should be working together as a team (cue cheesy music). But there is a lot of antagonism and snobbery that tends to drive the two fields apart. Believe me, if a nurse who has been working for 30+ years tells me that s/he has a "bad feeling" about a patient, I'm darn sure going to listen. But there is also a lot of "well, you don't have the training I have" stuff. I don't like the idea of a psychologist (either Masters or PhD) prescribing drugs to a psych patient because they may not understand the interactions with other drugs or other medical problems. But I've worked with plenty of "medical auxilliary" staff, and I know how much they contribute.

My spouse is a PhD, and he *HATES* the reaction that some medical students (and it is USUALLY students, but sometimes residents) have when they find out he is "not a real doctor." :rolleyes: If we are together, I tend to respond, "I'm a physician, he's a scientist, and we are BOTH doctors." I've met one PhD nurse, and she could totally kick my ass when it came to her specialty. She usually went by Ms. XXX in the clinics, but Dr. XXX when teaching.

All this BS about being called "doctor" or not in the clinics is insane. When I walk into the room, the patient assumes I am a nurse (long hair and boobs will do that to you). I don't take offense. I say, "No, I'm the med student (that will soon be changed to "doctor")." Men who serve in ancillary positions (nurse, tech, pharmacologist, whatever) often correct the false assumption that they are a physician.

I think that it all boils down to the fact that MANY (not all) people think that physicians deserve the ultimate respect because they are the "best" and the "leaders" of the medical team and are insulted if someone without an MD (or DO) questions their judgement. To be called "Dr." is to be called "supreme" and better than everyone else (hence the snarky comment about "doctor of janitorial services"). Ironically, the upper echelon of physicians in the UK are called Mr. (or Ms.). My parents' OB in the UK pitched a fit every time they called him Dr. XXX. He kept telling them, "I have earned the title Mr."

Besides, there is a difference between an academic "doctoral" degree (like what this DNP seems to be) and independent medical practice. EMTs can practice lots of medical things "independently", as can many CNM's and NP's. Yes, they have a supervising medical director, but there is quite a bit of independence.

Are we more threatened by the loss of renumeration or the loss of the title (and accompanying prestige)?
 
smiley,

props to you for taking on a controversial subject. like you, i wish the world was one in which healthcare professionals could get along without so much bickering. BUT, i do have some issues with your post. i will try to articulate them without resorting to name calling. i hope you have a chance to reply.

first, i totally respect you and those like you who choose to enter nursing to fulfill the vital role that nurses play in the care of the patient. in fact, i think this new model of nursing, the idea of making a more "medical" nurse, actually devalues what nursing is all about. simply stated, if nursing is evolving into an fully independent specialty like medicine, with the rights and responsibilities of medicine, then who is going to do the nursing? who's going to do all the special things that the nursing profession was supposed to be about? could it be that the nursing profession's leadership just doesn't see that stuff so particularly special anymore?

as for spending more time, yes under the current structure many NPs do spend more time with patients. i'm glad of it. i wish i could spend more time too. but i think you'll find that if the model changes to a more medical one, the amount of time an NP spends with a patient will decrease. if you're managing complex patients in the hospital as well as the office your amount of time per pt decreases as a matter of course. you have to treat the sickest first. NPs are spared of this now as they are largely in outpt clinics, treating simpler cases OR in some speciality services of the hospital with very specialized tasks. how much time will they spend when they have to do it all and without MD/DO assistance?

regarding "equivalent education", really, you should check into this statement. i hear this all the time and frankly it bugs. a lot. it just isn't true, our educations are not equivalent either in rigor, breadth or length. i think this misconception is one of the things that drives this problem. i don't mean to be offensive, this is just the way of the world. there is always someone more educated than you in this field. my education as an internist is NOT the equivalent of an orthopedist and neither is his to mine. thus when an ortho problem comes up, i send it over to him. i trust when the patient has diabetes the ortho will send the pt to me. regardless, both of us have FAR more training than an ANP/DNP.

honestly, look into it for yourself. start at the beginning as an undergrad. look at the prerequisites for med school; COUNT the number of hours and the level of the courses. look at the curriculum for any medical school in this country. AGAIN, count the number of hours, check into the level of the courses. now look at the boards. look into the residencies, all 3-6 years of them. check into fellowships. compare all of this with the DNP curriculum. i did and i posted excerpts of it on another thread. it simply is not the same; it's not even close. the ANP/DNP is definitely NOT the equivalent of a primary care doc.

before jumping on the "well, we're trained to do stuff that you can't do" argument, please remember, what we're talking about here is nurses morphing into docs and not the other way around.

given that, i think your statement regarding provision of the best healthcare deserves a look. i agree, pt's appreciate being able to talk to their providers longer. i've also explained under what circumstances this does and doesn't happen under the current system. the question is, would you rather go to someone half trained but capable of really good hand-holding, or someone fully trained but pressed for time? well, i'd take the latter and i bet if most people were really aware of the differences in training between docs and NPs, they would to. again, check into the DNP curriculum and compare it with the MD/DO. they will STILL be half trained but with the STATED intent of becoming INDEPENDENT operators. i think ultimately patients will suffer for that and i've already decided not to send any of mine to see one. sorry.

look, in the end i have no problem with whatever initials a person has behind his/her name. in medicine docs can be md, do, mbbs, etc., depending on what country you're in. if the proposal was to create an "uber-nurse" with fully equivalent standards for admission, training, examinations, etc., i might grumble a bit but i wouldn't be able to shoot the idea down flatly. that isn't the case here. this is a grab for money, power and prestige pure and simple.

i'd love to see some response on this, my latest tome.

-drgiggles
 
Well stated Dr. Giggles.
 
DRGIGGLES said:
regarding "equivalent education", really, you should check into this statement. i hear this all the time and frankly it bugs. a lot. it just isn't true, our educations are not equivalent either in rigor, breadth or length.

honestly, look into it for yourself. start at the beginning as an undergrad. look at the prerequisites for med school; COUNT the number of hours and the level of the courses. look at the curriculum for any medical school in this country. AGAIN, count the number of hours, check into the level of the courses. now look at the boards. look into the residencies, all 3-6 years of them. check into fellowships. compare all of this with the DNP curriculum. i did and i posted excerpts of it on another thread. it simply is not the same; it's not even close. the ANP/DNP is definitely NOT the equivalent of a primary care doc.

-drgiggles

I know you are talking about nurses and physicians here, but if you want to throw "education" into the mix, your average (research) PhD requires WAY more work than an MD. Pre-quals are basically the same as pre-med, plus the GRE. Once you get there, you work full time AND attend classes (often with med students, if the school is structed that way). There are qualifying exams, etc. Average time is 6-7yrs. After graduation, you usually do a minimum of one, sometimes 2-3 post-docs (similar to a residency, in that they are 2-3yrs each). Most of the post-docs I know work 60-80hrs week. It's publish or perish, remember? And then maybe you'll find an academic position. And the PI of my lab worked a minimum of 70hrs/wk (6a-6p M-Sat) and he's a full prof. Believe me, the med school portion of my MD/PhD was a complete cakewalk compared to the PhD.

And, once again, I don't think that Smiley is saying that a DNP is an EQUIVALENT degree. But the education will cover similar topics. Med school is just "Human: memorize it". It is a different degree. I'm not sure anyone is saying that a DNP will replace an MD, and it shouldn't. But to lump nurses' aides, LVN's, RN's, CNM's, various ANP's, and DNP's together would be like lumping an EC, EMT-B, and Paramedic in the same group, and then comparing them to an EM doc. The jobs are DIFFERENT, even though they all treat people in emergency settings.
 
friendlyfriend said:
oh smiley, yes there is some bitterness in seeing people who haven't completed MD and residency feign a physician or attain the same privileges as one. I'm not sure people who have not gone through the academic boot camp that starts in undergrad and continues through residency can understand the amount of challenges, mental and physical stamina, delayed gratification, torture and time required to accomplish this distinction, so yes, to us it is a little more important than to an outside observer.



YOU do not know me. YOU do not know my accomplishments. YOU do not know how hard I have worked to get to where I am. Doctors are NOT the only people who work long and hard to reach a goal. YOU have NO right to insult me. YOU are pathetic.
 
JMK2005 said:
Hi smiley2,

Thanks for posting with the understanding that this would be unfriendly territory. I think most of us respect nurses and appreciate their care for the patient. Medicine is a team effort with the end goal to take care of the patients. Everyone has a specified role. It seems that the role of the nurse (or rather advance nurse practioner) is changing in such a way that it is assuming more of the physicians' role. Eventually ANP and PCP will be doing the same job but with different training.

Are we mistaken?

If we are wrong, can you describe the role of nurses to use??? because what we are hearing does not fit with my view of what a nurse should be doing.

If we are correct that ANPs and PCPs will assume a similar role in the care of the patient, then the public needs to know the training and qualifications involved in becoming ANPs vs becoming a family doc, general internist, or pediatrician.

I think the comparison will speak for itself. The public needs to be aware of the differences before they CHOOSE to see their nurse practioner. Who would you choose if you need someone to manage your chronic disease such as diabetes... admit you to the hospital if necessary and manage your complications????... Hmmmm...



Yes, I realize that I am not welcome here and don't worry, I'm going very soon. But, in response to your last question, I would choose the best health care provider....whether it be a doctor or nurse practitioner. There are some idiot nurse practitioners and there are equally idiot doctors. Oh, and a question for you. So what exactly DO you think a nurse should be doing??? Cleaning poop, right.....because we aren't smart enough to do anything else? Am I thinking more along the lines of a brilliant doctor now? This is certainly a hostile enivronment. Don't worry, I'm going............
 
Thank you to those of you who posted your opinions without attacking. I was not trying to offend anyone on this message board.
 
GeneGoddess said:
I know you are talking about nurses and physicians here, but if you want to throw "education" into the mix, your average (research) PhD requires WAY more work than an MD. Pre-quals are basically the same as pre-med, plus the GRE. Once you get there, you work full time AND attend classes (often with med students, if the school is structed that way). There are qualifying exams, etc. Average time is 6-7yrs. After graduation, you usually do a minimum of one, sometimes 2-3 post-docs (similar to a residency, in that they are 2-3yrs each). Most of the post-docs I know work 60-80hrs week. It's publish or perish, remember? And then maybe you'll find an academic position. And the PI of my lab worked a minimum of 70hrs/wk (6a-6p M-Sat) and he's a full prof. Believe me, the med school portion of my MD/PhD was a complete cakewalk compared to the PhD.

Most research PhD training programs do not have a clinical component(and if they did, definitely not at the level that medical school requires)...therefore you are comparing apples and oranges.
 
Smiley,

I'd like to know what you feel the role of a doctor and the role of a nurse entail. I think people are more concerned in that they feel that nurses are overstepping their boundaries of role of "nurse".

Or are there no boundaries? And if not, why did we go to med school(or better yet why didn't you go to med school) in the first place...
 
Whodathunkit said:
Most research PhD training programs do not have a clinical component(and if they did, definitely not at the level that medical school requires)...therefore you are comparing apples and oranges.

I think that was the point. You can't say that physicians are "better/more educated/smarter" than nurses because the education is different, even though you study the same thing (human). Some people (and I've seen it here) tend to think that a physician is the pinacle of medical education. It's not. It is the pinacle of one discipline of medicine.
 
GeneGoddess said:
I think that was the point. You can't say that physicians are "better/more educated/smarter" than nurses because the education is different, even though you study the same thing (human). Some people (and I've seen it here) tend to think that a physician is the pinacle of medical education. It's not. It is the pinacle of one discipline of medicine.

I looked at nursing curriculum a while back. It is not even similar to allopathic or osteopathic training. Nursing study includes the cursory study of the human body. Nursing curriculum is heavy on patient management, not pathophysiology.

Sorry to say, but physicians are more educated in medicine than nurses. Is it impossible for a nurse to become a physician because of lesser intellect? Of course not. Nurses might be good in the day to day management of patient issues and trying to second guess physicians, but when it comes down to hard decisions, (in my experience) they run.

Resident physicians have reached the base of the triangle of medical education. Specialists are at the pinnacle. Nurses are not even in the triangle.

Perhaps if you explore in detail what it takes to train a physician you will understand the difference.
 
GeneGoddess said:
I think that was the point. You can't say that physicians are "better/more educated/smarter" than nurses because the education is different, even though you study the same thing (human). Some people (and I've seen it here) tend to think that a physician is the pinacle of medical education. It's not. It is the pinacle of one discipline of medicine.


True. I will defer that nurses are better than me at starting IVs(especially on those 70 yr old dehydated IV heroine abusing patients).

We all have our different skills. And we all complement each other in different ways.

Why do people need primary care doctors if nurses can manage the same patients independently and write prescriptions. Sounds awfully similiar to a doctors job.
 
Since the MD/DO does not represent the pinacle of medical education (and now i dont know what does) then please enlighten me..what degree would represent the pinacle of medical education? Mabey we need to introduce the advanced MD/DO.
 
I like the

MD/PhD/DO/PharmD degree...it can't get much better than that.

Speaking of which:

Do nurses who go on to medical school put on their badges:

MD/RN or MD/LVN or MD/NP....

And if not, why?
 
DRGIGGLES said:
smiley,

props to you for taking on a controversial subject. like you, i wish the world was one in which healthcare professionals could get along without so much bickering. BUT, i do have some issues with your post. i will try to articulate them without resorting to name calling. i hope you have a chance to reply.

first, i totally respect you and those like you who choose to enter nursing to fulfill the vital role that nurses play in the care of the patient. in fact, i think this new model of nursing, the idea of making a more "medical" nurse, actually devalues what nursing is all about. simply stated, if nursing is evolving into an fully independent specialty like medicine, with the rights and responsibilities of medicine, then who is going to do the nursing? who's going to do all the special things that the nursing profession was supposed to be about? could it be that the nursing profession's leadership just doesn't see that stuff so particularly special anymore?

as for spending more time, yes under the current structure many NPs do spend more time with patients. i'm glad of it. i wish i could spend more time too. but i think you'll find that if the model changes to a more medical one, the amount of time an NP spends with a patient will decrease. if you're managing complex patients in the hospital as well as the office your amount of time per pt decreases as a matter of course. you have to treat the sickest first. NPs are spared of this now as they are largely in outpt clinics, treating simpler cases OR in some speciality services of the hospital with very specialized tasks. how much time will they spend when they have to do it all and without MD/DO assistance?

regarding "equivalent education", really, you should check into this statement. i hear this all the time and frankly it bugs. a lot. it just isn't true, our educations are not equivalent either in rigor, breadth or length. i think this misconception is one of the things that drives this problem. i don't mean to be offensive, this is just the way of the world. there is always someone more educated than you in this field. my education as an internist is NOT the equivalent of an orthopedist and neither is his to mine. thus when an ortho problem comes up, i send it over to him. i trust when the patient has diabetes the ortho will send the pt to me. regardless, both of us have FAR more training than an ANP/DNP.

honestly, look into it for yourself. start at the beginning as an undergrad. look at the prerequisites for med school; COUNT the number of hours and the level of the courses. look at the curriculum for any medical school in this country. AGAIN, count the number of hours, check into the level of the courses. now look at the boards. look into the residencies, all 3-6 years of them. check into fellowships. compare all of this with the DNP curriculum. i did and i posted excerpts of it on another thread. it simply is not the same; it's not even close. the ANP/DNP is definitely NOT the equivalent of a primary care doc.

before jumping on the "well, we're trained to do stuff that you can't do" argument, please remember, what we're talking about here is nurses morphing into docs and not the other way around.

given that, i think your statement regarding provision of the best healthcare deserves a look. i agree, pt's appreciate being able to talk to their providers longer. i've also explained under what circumstances this does and doesn't happen under the current system. the question is, would you rather go to someone half trained but capable of really good hand-holding, or someone fully trained but pressed for time? well, i'd take the latter and i bet if most people were really aware of the differences in training between docs and NPs, they would to. again, check into the DNP curriculum and compare it with the MD/DO. they will STILL be half trained but with the STATED intent of becoming INDEPENDENT operators. i think ultimately patients will suffer for that and i've already decided not to send any of mine to see one. sorry.

look, in the end i have no problem with whatever initials a person has behind his/her name. in medicine docs can be md, do, mbbs, etc., depending on what country you're in. if the proposal was to create an "uber-nurse" with fully equivalent standards for admission, training, examinations, etc., i might grumble a bit but i wouldn't be able to shoot the idea down flatly. that isn't the case here. this is a grab for money, power and prestige pure and simple.

i'd love to see some response on this, my latest tome.

-drgiggles


drgiggles,

Hello, thank you for your post. First, I agree with many of your statements. I think every doctor, nurse practitioner, any health care provider must know and accept their limits in treating their patients. The patient should certainly be referred to a specialist when necessary. NP's should know their limits and refer when necessary. And yes, NP's are limited in what they can treat and they should be. But, nurses roles are changing and evolving to meet needs that are not being met. So what if a nurse fills the gap? I agree that in the future NPs may not be able to spend as much time with their patients. I NEVER said that PCPs and NPs are the same. I did not say that their education is the same. Nursing is already a specialty! Traditionally, nursing education and medical education have had a different focus. But, that doesn't imply that ALL nurses are less educated than doctors-our focus is just different. I know for a fact that I have the same number of years of schooling as some of the doctors I work with. Now, that is not to say that we took the same number of hours or the same courses.( Oh, and I have examined the medical school curriculum and the NP curriculum as well.) But, how can anyone who doesnt know me assume that I worked any less harder than they did? You can't assume that. After reading many posts on the message boards (they're very much like the scene of a terrible accident!) it seems that many people here have sooooo little respect for other medical professionals just because they aren't "doctors". Attitudes need to change. Yes, some nurses go to school for two years and are very happy with that. Some of us however, have many years of education and spend COUNTLESS hours outside of the REQUIRED curriculum, studying and researching so we can KNOW what we are talking about. Personally, I love cardiology and I know a good bit about it. I would NEVER claim to know half of what a cardiologist knows......but just because I'm a nurse you can't assume that I'm clueless or that I'm just a "hand-holder". Attitudes like that have caused this debate. "Different" doesn't mean "inferior" or "superior". Thats my real point. Oh, and in response to another post, I work in a large hospital. I work WITH doctors not FOR doctors. I work for the patients. Thank you for listening.
 
smiley2 said:
I work WITH doctors not FOR doctors.

Actually, you work FOR the hospital.

I went to school for 4 years before medical school. Actually, 5 years. I worked very hard and I studied very hard. My education was not equivalent to a medical education. I guess if you never go through the process you will never understand.
 
Whodathunkit said:
Smiley,

I'd like to know what you feel the role of a doctor and the role of a nurse entail. I think people are more concerned in that they feel that nurses are overstepping their boundaries of role of "nurse".

Or are there no boundaries? And if not, why did we go to med school(or better yet why didn't you go to med school) in the first place...



The role of nurse and doctor entail caring for their patients. One is not superior to the other. Nurses roles are evolving because of unmet needs. I didn't go to med school because I don't want to be a doctor. Thanks for asking. Why did you go to med school? For prestige, power, money, women, to attack nurses, or to care for people?
 
MD'05 said:
Perhaps if you explore in detail what it takes to train a physician you will understand the difference.

Umm, yeah, I'll try to do that.

(<cough> MD/PhD Cough>) :rolleyes:
 
I overheard a couple of nurses discussing something fervently today. One was complaining about some negative reaction to something. Then I heard "APN" mentioned. Apparently APNs are trying to fill a perceived gap between the hemotologists and the anesthesiologists in providing pain management to cancer patients. Probably some issue local to my hospital.

What struck me was the rabid nature revealed while these nurses discussed how much money was to be made.

Better patient care and filling a need. Right.
 
MD'05 said:
Actually, you work FOR the hospital.

I went to school for 4 years before medical school. Actually, 5 years. I worked very hard and I studied very hard. My education was not equivalent to a medical education. I guess if you never go through the process you will never understand.



WEll, you apparently missed my point. You might want to tell the other poster that because he seems to think that all nurses are his employees! Maybe if he's in private practice.......oh, and you don't know anything about me or my education so don't assume.
 
smiley2 said:
WEll, you apparently missed my point. You might want to tell the other poster that because he seems to think that all nurses are his employees! Maybe if he's in private practice.......oh, and you don't know anything about me or my education so don't assume.

Now, now, try to control that nurse attitude of yours. Actually, I don't care anything about your education. I was parodying one of your earlier replies.

I can't wait till I have my own practice. I will never hire a nurse. Only MAs that aspire to be physicians.
 
Im not really with this lets "make NP's doctors" to fills the gaps of the primary care physcian. There are plenty of programs out there that give med students tution, stipends etc to go into primary care. Mabey the solution is to make MORE med school postions so that the people that have this desire to be a doctor (in the clinical sense) can go throught the proper channels. And make these primary care incentive programs more attractive (like not feeling like your selling your soul) and well known. Why wouldnt the government, AMA and the public advocate more postions and more insentives over more liablity???
 
smiley2 said:
The role of nurse and doctor entail caring for their patients. One is not superior to the other. Nurses roles are evolving because of unmet needs. I didn't go to med school because I don't want to be a doctor. Thanks for asking. Why did you go to med school? For prestige, power, money, women, to attack nurses, or to care for people?

Nurses roles are evolving because nurses, like optometrists, want to do the same job as the doctor for the same pay WITHOUT the same training.

And before you go back to your type A nursing attitude (unique to you and some other nurses, though many I have worked with are the complete opposite of your anality), consider what you would want for your relatives if they got sick. Yes there are some bad doctors and yes there are some bad NPs, but based on sheer amount of training, 99% of the bad doctors will be better than bad NPs. This has nothing to do with intelligence or intellect, but simply the amount of TIME doctors spend in training.

So if nurses want their practice to evolve, instead of just attempting to do procedures they have not been trained in, maybe they should start a training regimen that resembles that required to be a physician- 4 years med school, and X years of residency. Otherwise, by definition, you are allowing less trained individuals to do the work. And that its a travesty to patients who would not know any better and assume that a white coat means that they are being treated by a doctor.
 
smiley2 said:
The role of nurse and doctor entail caring for their patients. One is not superior to the other. Nurses roles are evolving because of unmet needs. I didn't go to med school because I don't want to be a doctor. Thanks for asking. Why did you go to med school? For prestige, power, money, women, to attack nurses, or to care for people?


You don't want to be a doctor...that's fine. But I think other nurses goals are a little different. Nevertheless, if I EVER hire a PA or NP(which at this point is not likely), they will have clearly stated goals...and independent patient care will not be one of them. They'll have to find some other money hungry doctor willing to sell out his medical profession by allowing PA/NPs to see patients by themselves just to make an extra buck.

BTW I don't think I've ever attacked you...or nurses for that matter, but if you feel that way...eh...

Despite anything said on this board, this too will come to pass...CRNAs, Psychologists, Optometrists, and Chiropractors will continue to lobby for more rights...and slowly, because our elders are too apathetic to give a rat's ass, they will gain more access. All in the name of improving health care. OK. Whatever.

In ten years, we can all say to each other, "We told you so..". And they will say "Shut your trap...you should have seen it coming..." And we will.

This conversation has tired me out psychologically. :sleep:
 
MAC10 said:
Im not really with this lets "make NP's doctors" to fills the gaps of the primary care physcian. There are plenty of programs out there that give med students tution, stipends etc to go into primary care. Mabey the solution is to make MORE med school postions so that the people that have this desire to be a doctor (in the clinical sense) can go throught the proper channels. And make these primary care incentive programs more attractive (like not feeling like your selling your soul) and well known. Why wouldnt the government, AMA and the public advocate more postions and more insentives over more liablity???

Apparently the NHS primary care scholarships have had their funding reduced. I am graduating from an institution known for primary care. Next year the proposed in state tuition will be $37 K qyear plus another $15k for living expenses if one is taking out loans. Add on the cross the board cut in Medicare and going into primary care at this point sounds like financial suicide -- no matter how committed one is to providing primary care.
 
MD'05 said:
I looked at nursing curriculum a while back. It is not even similar to allopathic or osteopathic training. Nursing study includes the cursory study of the human body. Nursing curriculum is heavy on patient management, not pathophysiology.

Sorry to say, but physicians are more educated in medicine than nurses. Is it impossible for a nurse to become a physician because of lesser intellect? Of course not. Nurses might be good in the day to day management of patient issues and trying to second guess physicians, but when it comes down to hard decisions, (in my experience) they run.

Resident physicians have reached the base of the triangle of medical education. Specialists are at the pinnacle. Nurses are not even in the triangle.

Perhaps if you explore in detail what it takes to train a physician you will understand the difference.



Wow, if nursing curriculum doesn't concentrate on pathophysiology then WHY have I wasted countless hours studying.....patho?! You can't manage patient issues if you don't understand the patho behind their problems.I hate to tell you this, but there are some nurses smart enough to kick your ass right out of the "triangle". Don't say I didn't warn you.
 
smiley2 said:
drgiggles,
But, that doesn't imply that ALL nurses are less educated than doctors-our focus is just different.
smiley2 said:
drgiggles,

Thats like saying apples are less tasty than oranges. You can compare the two all you want but they aint the same.
(btw i think they are both tasty)


If there is a nurse that has gone through the amount of rigor and testing, board certification, hours in hosptial, calls, classroom time, pimping, sleepless days and nights that a doctor has then she aint very smart cause she should have just become a doctor. I would have..

smiley2 said:
I have the same number of years of schooling as some of the doctors I work with

It took my best friend 7 years to graduate from college, that does NOT make him more educated than the person who took 4 years.
 
Smiley2, what kind of nurse are you ICU, floor, private practice, NP, etc ?
 
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