Doctor Income

[GoodmanBrown]

At an income of 85,000 per year you would make $840,000 less over your lifetime than a teacher would.

And yet I would soldier on in my poverty.

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[GoodmanBrown]

what one defines as "enough" or "doable" is entirely subjective. Who are you (and even me for that matter) to define 85k as enough. Its just what different people are accustomed to (lifestyle they grew up with etc.) There is no right or wrong answer...

85k a year puts you at the 75th percentile for household incomes in the US (which is the richest country in the world). I define that as doable and enough to live on.

 

[hemoglobincell]

85k a year puts you at the 75th percentile for household incomes in the US (which is the richest country in the world). I define that as doable and enough to live on.

$85,000 puts you at $17.42 per hour, or $34,847 a year.

 

[KeyzerSoze]

85k a year puts you at the 75th percentile for household incomes in the US (which is the richest country in the world). I define that as doable and enough to live on.

75th percentile for working 60+ hour weeks after 8 years of post secondary education, 3 - 7 years making $10/hour, and 200 - 300K in debt? Whoopdy $&*%ing do.

 

[GoodmanBrown]

$85,000 puts you at $17.42 per hour, or $34,847 a year.

75th percentile for working 60+ hour weeks after 8 years of post secondary education, 3 - 7 years making $10/hour, and 200 - 300K in debt? Whoopdy $&*%ing do.

I understand you both feel doctors deserve more than $85K/yr. That's fine. I'm not arguing that point. I'm not arguing any per hour salary is good or bad.

All I'm saying is that 85K/yr. is enough to live on. Loans would be burdensome, but the IBR would keep them from causing you to default.

 

[IlDestriero]

what one defines as "enough" or "doable" is entirely subjective. Who are you (and even me for that matter) to define 85k as enough. Its just what different people are accustomed to (lifestyle they grew up with etc.) There is no right or wrong answer...

Personally, I don't think $385 is enough.

 

[mfrizzo3]

Look, I hope to be paid, and paid well when I complete my training. But even if I end up being that pediatrician who only makes 85K in East Bejezus, I will feel pretty good having a secure job that makes me feel happy. That is not nothing.

85k in East Bejezus would be great if I could **** gold bricks.

 

[abcabc1]

I understand you both feel doctors deserve more than $85K/yr. That's fine. I'm not arguing that point. I'm not arguing any per hour salary is good or bad.

All I'm saying is that 85K/yr. is enough to live on. Loans would be burdensome, but the IBR would keep them from causing you to default.

It's not that you can't get by on $85K/annum even with student loan debt, but that would lead to a VERY modest lifestyle, even without children to support. You'd basically be taking on $300K+ (for private Med Schools) of debt to have enough to pay the bills and the loans off, but not much else.

What I'm saying is it's easy to say 'do what you love,' 'don't worry about the money,' etc but it's completely different when the bills come due and you barely have enough at the end of the month. With all the time and money required to become a doctor, one can be frustrated if, as an attending, they barely have enough to pay off their bills and loans.

It's not that people should go to Med School to have glamorous lives, but look at the purchasing power that physicians have lost in just one generation. Not that long ago, one physician would be able to support a family including children in private schools and financing their childrens' Education (including Med/Law/Businesss School, if his/her children wanted to go). For doctors having children now, it's going to be much harder (if possible at all) to pay for such things. I'm not talking about fancy cars and vacations here; just providing more Educational expenses for your children.

It's not so much that doctors' incomes have plummeted, but costs (especially Educational) have risen so much that physicians don't have the same purchasing power that they had in the past. On top of that, the costs for Medical School just continue to rise unabated.

For a payout of $85K, it's not worth the effort (in my opinion and the opinion of many others). There are a lot of people who spent a lot less time and money in school and training who will make > $85K.

 

[Antibodies]

It's not that you can't get by on $85K/annum even with student loan debt, but that would lead to a VERY modest lifestyle, even without children to support. You'd basically be taking on $300K+ (for private Med Schools) of debt to have enough to pay the bills and the loans off, but not much else.

What I'm saying is it's easy to say 'do what you love,' 'don't worry about the money,' etc but it's completely different when the bills come due and you barely have enough at the end of the month. With all the time and money required to become a doctor, one can be frustrated if, as an attending, they barely have enough to pay off their bills and loans.

It's not that people should go to Med School to have glamorous lives, but look at the purchasing power that physicians have lost in just one generation. Not that long ago, one physician would be able to support a family including children in private schools and financing their childrens' Education (including Med/Law/Businesss School, if his/her children wanted to go). For doctors having children now, it's going to be much harder (if possible at all) to pay for such things. I'm not talking about fancy cars and vacations here; just providing more Educational expenses for your children.

It's not so much that doctors' incomes have plummeted, but costs (especially Educational) have risen so much that physicians don't have the same purchasing power that they had in the past. On top of that, the costs for Medical School just continue to rise unabated.

For a payout of $85K, it's not worth the effort (in my opinion and the opinion of many others). There are a lot of people who spent a lot less time and money in school and training who will make > $85K.

This. It isn't that you can't survive on $85k, but it would just be dumb to go through all the training, work long, stressful hours for $85k.

 

[IlDestriero]

I'm curious how physician income went from an "average" of $160k (wherever that number came from) to $85k?
Nurses make 85k. CRNAs make >160k to work 3 12 hour shifts with no call and no weekends.
Even if Maobama care/single payer medicine comes to pass in another 10-20 years, physician salaries are not going to be that low. If anything PCM pay would probably go up while subspecialist pay plummets to little more than PCM levels. I tell medical students interested in anesthesia to plan on making $200-250k. If that's not a deal breaker, you could make far more. There's no way to know. The days of >$500k partnerships are likely not sustainable for long though. The average pediatrician salary, usually noted as the worst paying field, is reported in multiple places as around $140k. I knew people getting out of the Navy in FP and IM with a few years experience looking at offers around $200k to start. And yes that was as employees with included benefits and malpractice. Some benefits packages are worth more than $80k/yr FFS! Where are these numbers coming from?
No physician working full time is going to make less than $100k anywhere. You could probably make more than that on a cruise ship handing out scopolamine patches and checking the defibrillator once a week.
Read this. http://www.merritthawkins.com/pdf/mha2009incentivesurvey.pdf
How deep do you think the cuts may be for primary care? Minimal.
Don't panic. And BTW, salaries are still going up.

 

[TheSurrealDoc]

What happened to the whole Investment Banking/Consulting argument that always comes up??

 

[Antibodies]

I'm curious how physician income went from an "average" of $160k (wherever that number came from) to $85k?
Nurses make 85k. CRNAs make >160k to work 3 12 hour shifts with no call and no weekends.
Even if Maobama care/single payer medicine comes to pass in another 10-20 years, physician salaries are not going to be that low. If anything PCM pay would probably go up while subspecialist pay plummets to little more than PCM levels. I tell medical students interested in anesthesia to plan on making $200-250k. If that's not a deal breaker, you could make far more. There's no way to know. The days of >$500k partnerships are likely not sustainable for long though. The average pediatrician salary, usually noted as the worst paying field, is reported in multiple places as around $140k. I knew people getting out of the Navy in FP and IM with a few years experience looking at offers around $200k to start. And yes that was as employees with included benefits and malpractice. Some benefits packages are worth more than $80k/yr FFS! Where are these numbers coming from?
No physician working full time is going to make less than $100k anywhere. You could probably make more than that on a cruise ship handing out scopolamine patches and checking the defibrillator once a week.
Read this. http://www.merritthawkins.com/pdf/mha2009incentivesurvey.pdf
How deep do you think the cuts may be for primary care? Minimal.
Don't panic. And BTW, salaries are still going up.

I think someone just went with the "I will love this job so much that all I need is $85k to be the happiest person in the world" argument.

 

[da8s0859q]

I think someone just went with the "I will love this job so much that all I need is $85k to be the happiest person in the world" argument.

 

[avatarftw]

...

 

[MLT2MT2DO]

While the rest of your post was essentially valid, I have to say something here. Any posting you see on a job site will almost definitely be from a large practice, usually hospital-based. These are the jobs that do generally include benefits, as you are an employee.

The physicians that have to pay out of pocket for their own malpractice/benefits/etc are those in solo or perhaps small group practice.

In reality, this thread is more about how physicians are losing their ability to practice independently than it is about whether or not they are paid enough.

Just my opinion, of course.

If the ones that are paying out of pocket are small group practice or even solo base I don't think 180k is a fair income to use in this case. These types usually make quite a bit more than the mean. The 180k salaries are usually the hospital based jobs that seem to already provide your bennies.

 

[MLT2MT2DO]

It is true. Teachers are paid much more in retirement than their average salaries.


Retirement is 90% of highest income. In this case, it is $60,813*0.9=$54,732. Yes, this is more than their average salary over their 35 year career. Thus, the California budget crisis...

Finally, I agree that one should factor their own numbers into the physician salary to make their own calculation. Most physicians will fare better than teachers on a per hour basis. The point to my spreadsheet is to show that there are EXCEPTIONS to this rule, and not all doctors will be better paid than a teacher on a per hour basis when all things have been considered.

Ok if you are simply just pointing out that there are exceptions where a very minute number of teachers make more than a very minute number of physicians then I would agree. But for the most part if you aren't taking upper extremes of one occupation and comparing them to the lower extremes of another, physician salaries are 99% of the time going to be higher than a teachers.

If you want to bag on someone, bag on district/state superintendants. Many of these guys have a degree in Communication and net 150k+. But such is the way of politics...

 

[IMDoc607]

I understand you both feel doctors deserve more than $85K/yr. That's fine. I'm not arguing that point. I'm not arguing any per hour salary is good or bad.

All I'm saying is that 85K/yr. is enough to live on. Loans would be burdensome, but the IBR would keep them from causing you to default.

Try living with 85K in NY. If I was to ever make less than 150K (and thats really really low balling it) I will quit. There is no way in hell I would work that amount of hours doctors do for such horrible pay.

Everyone is different but I guess some people are ok with making as much as a nurse and teacher when you training is far beyond theirs.

 

[abcabc1]

Try living with 85K in NY. If I was to ever make less than 150K (and thats really really low balling it) I will quit. There is no way in hell I would work that amount of hours doctors do for such horrible pay.

Everyone is different but I guess some people are ok with making as much as a nurse and teacher when you training is far beyond theirs.

I don't blame you. Besides the higher training, it's hard (if even possible) to make the case that teachers or nurses have a responsibility (and liability) level as high as Physicians.

It's funny that most people who say doctors make too much money ARE NOT DOCTORS. When you actually take on the debt burden and put in the years of training, you realize that (if anything) doctors are underpaid.

 

[abcabc1]

I'm curious how physician income went from an "average" of $160k (wherever that number came from) to $85k?
Nurses make 85k. CRNAs make >160k to work 3 12 hour shifts with no call and no weekends.
Even if Maobama care/single payer medicine comes to pass in another 10-20 years, physician salaries are not going to be that low. If anything PCM pay would probably go up while subspecialist pay plummets to little more than PCM levels. I tell medical students interested in anesthesia to plan on making $200-250k. If that's not a deal breaker, you could make far more. There's no way to know. The days of >$500k partnerships are likely not sustainable for long though. The average pediatrician salary, usually noted as the worst paying field, is reported in multiple places as around $140k. I knew people getting out of the Navy in FP and IM with a few years experience looking at offers around $200k to start. And yes that was as employees with included benefits and malpractice. Some benefits packages are worth more than $80k/yr FFS! Where are these numbers coming from?
No physician working full time is going to make less than $100k anywhere. You could probably make more than that on a cruise ship handing out scopolamine patches and checking the defibrillator once a week.
Read this. http://www.merritthawkins.com/pdf/mha2009incentivesurvey.pdf
How deep do you think the cuts may be for primary care? Minimal.
Don't panic. And BTW, salaries are still going up.

I think it's b/c someone brought up the idea of whether or not it was worth becoming a doctor to make $ 85K/annum. My answer is HELL NO!!!!

 

[tco]

You've never thought this through, have you?

Average teacher salary in San Diego CA is ~$67,000/yr and they work about 8hrs/day, 188 days per year. That DOES NOT include their health care benefits, which are about 15% of their pay. And, yet again, that doesn't include their retirement package. A 2004 retiree with 35 years’ service retiring at age 63 would replace 90 percent of their income AND would have health benefits.

Lets say they live to be 80, and they early 90% + health benefits for 17yrs.
$67,000 * 18 = $1,206,000; Health benefits = 15% of pay (very low estimate considering their age), and that's $170,850. Add that into the 35 years of service, and lets see what we get.


$67,000/yr * 35 yrs + <-- working salary
$10,050/yr * 35 yrs + <-- working benefits
$60,300/yr * 17 yrs + <-- retired earnings
$10,050/yr * 17 yrs <-- retired benefits
----------------------------
$3,892,700 effective earnings over a 35yr career averaging 188 days/yr and 8hrs/day

That works out to $73.95 PER HOUR!!!!!!

Now, lets look at the average family physician.

$180,000/yr
60hrs/wk - for kicks, lets pretend the rest of the world doesn't get overtime and we won't factor that into the equation
Family physicians often pay for their own retirement and healthcare.
Lets assume 2 weeks of vacation time.

$180,000/(60hrs/wk * 50 wks) = $60 per hour.

If we did figure overtime, it would work out to $51.43/hr

So, yeah... people DO rightfully compare state employee pay to physician pay. When it comes to hours worked, physicians get RAILED compared to state workers.

Bottom line
-----------------------------
High school teacher: $75/hr - 4 to 5 yrs of easy education
Family physician: $60/hr - 11+ years of very difficult education and hellish work conditions as a resident

Flawed statistical analysis lesson number 138 on these boards:

Comparing any job in San Diego to an average physician's salary.

 

[Slack3r]

Flawed statistical analysis lesson number 138 on these boards:

Comparing any job in San Diego to an average physician's salary.

He also assumes the bloated pensions currently available in socialist wet-dream states like CA will remain solvent...

 

[MLT2MT2DO]

It's funny that most people who say doctors make too much money ARE NOT DOCTORS.

It's also funny that most people who say teachers/cops make too much money ARE NOT A TEACHER OR A COP.

Common sense is fun!

 

[cowme]

In my opinion, the income of doctors is not bad. According to MGMA (most accurate source), the average salaries of family doctors are 190K/year. I think that&#39;s the error process, but before taxes. This should make an extremely comfortable stay luxurious lifestyle borderline. But I think if you put in so much effort into other careers, it would be better off financially.

Remember, these are also average numbers. Hard-working, efficient FP docs can make upwards of 300K. Conversely, some barely make over 100K.

 

[Slack3r]

In my opinion, the income of doctors is not bad. According to MGMA (most accurate source), the average salaries of family doctors are 190K/year. I think that&#39;s the error process, but before taxes. This should make an extremely comfortable stay luxurious lifestyle borderline. But I think if you put in so much effort into other careers, it would be better off financially.

$190k hardly affords a "luxurious" lifestyle. You'll be comfortable, and your kids will never go hungry, but you're not exactly going to be vacationing on your private yacht.

 

[MagicDrumSticks]

$190k hardly affords a "luxurious" lifestyle. You'll be comfortable, and your kids will never go hungry, but you're not exactly going to be vacationing on your private yacht.

Yeah because we see teachers and cops cruising around in yachts >_>

Your standards of luxury are far too high. Private Yachts and Jets are reserved for CEOs... good luck making it there.

 

[psipsina]

I don't blame you. Besides the higher training, it's hard (if even possible) to make the case that teachers or nurses have a responsibility (and liability) level as high as Physicians.

It's funny that most people who say doctors make too much money ARE NOT DOCTORS. When you actually take on the debt burden and put in the years of training, you realize that (if anything) doctors are underpaid.

On a surg rotation this year we had a psych guest speaker who rolled out some stats that 85% all residents qualify for burnout at some point in their training! She also talked about a study about israeli trauma surgeons showing that >30% of them had PTSD (which the attendings all argued was low-balling it for surgeons in general). I think its hard for anyone who hasn't gotten too deep on this path to truly get the sacrifices that are made by physicians in training and on the job daily.

I love surg, but there is no way on earth I would sign on for the 7 year residency program I'm currently dreaming I'll match in a few weeks if I thought I'd be able to "just get by" at the end of it. Some days at 3am I need something more than the love of my job to get me moving. I think it would be pretty pathological to work like we do and not expect a bit more than "ok". With all the stress on the job there should be zero stress about my bank account and some pretty great stuff to do in my bits of free time.

 

[Slack3r]

Yeah because we see teachers and cops cruising around in yachts >_>

Your standards of luxury are far too high. Private Yachts and Jets are reserved for CEOs... good luck making it there.

I never said anything about teachers or cops, did I?

And I never said I was aiming for a yacht. I said that $190k hardly affords what I would consider a "luxurious lifestyle". Luxury, to me, implies multi million dollar homes and toys. It's a solid middle/upper class living that $190k will buy, but by no means is it "luxurious".