Do some surgeons suck at surgery?

This forum made possible through the generous support of SDN members, donors, and sponsors. Thank you.
P.S. There's a reason why the top 5 specialties in malpractice for physicians are surgical specialties. Yea you gen surgeons are #3.

Fine. Please go into a low stakes specialty, and leave us alone. We are too busy making life and death decisions, and putting the patient's well-being first rather than being a coward obsessed with eliminating risk at all costs.

I make difficult decisions on a daily basis. I understand the risks, benefits, and alternatives to surgery. I've lived out many complications, and I currently have sleepless nights worrying about new ones. Nobody understands surgical complications better than me, but I still have the balls to be a leader in my patient's care, and put their interests ahead of my own.

You are inexperienced and blindly arrogant, so I have nothing to say that will actually get through to you. Instead, please wait two years....re-read this thread...crap in your hand, and then punch yourself in the face.

I thought you were a troll at first, and it's possible that you've just got me on the hook like everyone else, but I can't tolerate any more. Surgeons understand that there's no such thing as a free lunch....we're just not afraid to take our place at the table.

Members don't see this ad.
 
Fine. Please go into a low stakes specialty, and leave us alone. We are too busy making life and death decisions, and putting the patient's well-being first rather than being a coward obsessed with eliminating risk at all costs.

I make difficult decisions on a daily basis. I understand the risks, benefits, and alternatives to surgery. I've lived out many complications, and I currently have sleepless nights worrying about new ones. Nobody understands surgical complications better than me, but I still have the balls to be a leader in my patient's care, and put their interests ahead of my own.

You are inexperienced and blindly arrogant, so I have nothing to say that will actually get through to you. Instead, please wait two years....re-read this thread...crap in your hand, and then punch yourself in the face.

I thought you were a troll at first, and it's possible that you've just got me on the hook like everyone else, but I can't tolerate any more. Surgeons understand that there's no such thing as a free lunch....we're just not afraid to take our place at the table.

This comment really fired me up.
 
I'm not saying non-operative approaches never have risks. But generally speaking, most medications won't kill you/severely harm you. Obviously some can. Warfarin, long term antibiotic usage, corticosteroids, serotonin syndrome, TPA, Lithium etc. can cause severe issues in certain circumstances. But in general, an internist is less likely to provide medications that can cause severe morbidity/mortality on a daily basis.

In contrast, surgeons do surgeries that always harm people (which is fine as long as the justification/benefits are there to make the harm worth it) and radiologists also perform diagnostic tests which provide high doses of radiation on a daily basis. When your primary mode of treatment always harms a patient, I'm just saying you better be damn sure you're doing it for the right reason.

So surgeries always harm people? Really?
 
Members don't see this ad :)
It's kinda cute that a 3rd year of all people are arguing with surgery residents and attendings.

If you even dared to do this IRL, prepare to get a scalpel in your eye :laugh:

I'm not sure why you are so hesitant against surgeries...saying they are always harmful. When you start your surgery rotation, you'll have your eyes wide open.
 
So surgeries always harm people? Really?

I think he means it in the literal, short-sighted sense that cutting someone = inflicting harm because cuts are wounds. Which is, I suppose, true, but it's pretty much irrelevant to the bigger picture.
 
Thank you for confirming my argument. So antibiotic over appendectomy for you? And if excellent surgeons are so common, why do such a high percentage get sued every year?

you are conflating risk and dangerous, and doing so in an entirely toolish and inflammatory manner fitting of your ignorance.

just because you seem to be entirely risk adverse doesn't mean everyone else in the world is nor should everyone else be forced to be.

You never addressed my carotid enderaterectomy question: one that is not black or white and really, has no great answer: 3% 1 month risk of death/stroke, 5% overall over 3 years, or 11% risk overall over 3 years? An immediate increased risk for longer term benefit? But you only have a 1 in 9 chance of that stroke over that 3 years... so, is it worth the risk? I've had a vascular fellow tell me no way she would get the CEA....But, if you look just at the numbers, its irrational not to get the CEA, no? Same as with the Appy with Abx... a real minimal risk of major complication but 100% cure rate, or a poor cure rate 60-70% but avoiding that minimal risk of complication... i mean, for me right now, the Appy is the more logical conclusion, but i respect those that would be more risk seeking and take the abx (yes, I'm calling ABx the more risky, as many others have).

As to the malpractice... :smack:
as someone mentioned, its a communication issue more than it is a poor practice issue, and, more so, people have unrealistic expectations and use malpractice not as a result or a response to poor physician practice, but instead for poor medical outcome... I can do 100% proper care but if the patient dies, then the family very well may feel that it was my fault and make a malpractice claim.... so the nature that surgeons actually do something compared to medicine doctors that aren't very "active" in patient care, then yeah, we are going to get sued more frequently... :shrug:
 
Fine. Please go into a low stakes specialty, and leave us alone. We are too busy making life and death decisions, and putting the patient's well-being first rather than being a coward obsessed with eliminating risk at all costs.

I make difficult decisions on a daily basis. I understand the risks, benefits, and alternatives to surgery. I've lived out many complications, and I currently have sleepless nights worrying about new ones. Nobody understands surgical complications better than me, but I still have the balls to be a leader in my patient's care, and put their interests ahead of my own.

You are inexperienced and blindly arrogant, so I have nothing to say that will actually get through to you. Instead, please wait two years....re-read this thread...crap in your hand, and then punch yourself in the face.

I thought you were a troll at first, and it's possible that you've just got me on the hook like everyone else, but I can't tolerate any more. Surgeons understand that there's no such thing as a free lunch....we're just not afraid to take our place at the table.

dhMeAzK.gif
 
As to the malpractice... :smack:
as someone mentioned, its a communication issue more than it is a poor practice issue, and, more so, people have unrealistic expectations and use malpractice not as a result or a response to poor physician practice, but instead for poor medical outcome... I can do 100% proper care but if the patient dies, then the family very well may feel that it was my fault and make a malpractice claim.... so the nature that surgeons actually do something compared to medicine doctors that aren't very "active" in patient care, then yeah, we are going to get sued more frequently... :shrug:

Let's educate our misinformed medical student even more: patients not only sue for poor medical outcome but for *known* risks, claiming that despite multiple pre-op consultations, consent forms, etc. that they didn't expect such an outcome.

The comment that surgeons are sued more frequently because of quality issues is evidence of naiveté, something one wouldn't expect in a senior medical student.
 
Last edited:
Let's educate our misinformed medical student even more: patients not only sue for poor medical outcome but for *known* risks, claiming that despite multiple pre-op consultations, consent forms, etc. that they didn't expect such an outcome.

The comment that surgeons are sued more frequently because of quality issues is evidence of naiveté, something one wouldn't expect in a senior medical student.

But, he's done a good job of reinvigorating this forum, for which I am thankful.

Sometimes it gets a little slow, and the sharks need to smell some blood to perk up.
 
But, he's done a good job of reinvigorating this forum, for which I am thankful.

Sometimes it gets a little slow, and the sharks need to smell some blood to perk up.
you should just keep educating us. I really enjoy your sharing of literature around here.
 
The reasons for malpractice are likely going to be different based on the specialty and procedure. I'm sure there are procedures which you guys may be right; claims are predominantly due to the occurrence of known risks. I'm not sure how such a case would be successful if informed consent is given? Maybe you can educate me.

However there are a variety of reasons for why malpractice can occur. So let's not generalize here, unless you have a bunch of studies to list. Misdiagnosis, lack of informed consent, surgeries deemed unnecessary, intraoperative negligence can all be reasons for a successful malpractice suit.
 
if a surgeon is a jerk to residents and OR staff, their bad outcomes will be advertised and amplified.

i really doubt this is an universal truth, especially in those academics or malignant enviroments where hierarchy plays a big role and loyalty is currency.

edit: although this is wolf's territory to take this position, i agree on some stuff gopens is saying.
Antibiotics for appies are definetely underused.

Just wish some surgeons here would be more critic of their jobs, there are great ones here, some just seem a little to overprotective for their own good.
 
Last edited:
Members don't see this ad :)
As long as gopens realizes surgery is never only a last resort option. Unless he wants to get laughed at by doctors.

Dr. Surgeon "Hey Dr. Surgeon 2, get a load of this little guy, he thinks appys are unnecessary!"
Dr. Surgeon 2: "So adorable, lemme pinch his cheeks!"

I hope you don't think that on the shelf and Step 2...cause if so, wrong answers galore :eek:

If you always think "med management" should go before "surgical management" 100% of the time...you might end up retaking your shelf.
 
I get that Surgery can be a First Option, but this is usually because other medicinal options are not as efficacious. This occurs in severe illnesses/late stage conditions, correct? Someone has a severe EDH, there's no option but to evacuate. Someone has an thoracic aorta tear, there's no other option but to repair it. I get that... I am more concerned about the use of surgery in situations where the risk may/clearly outweigh the benefits.

You don't do a joint replacement on someone who has mild arthritis.

You don't take someone's tonsils out because they're slightly enlarged.

You don't remove a gallbladder because a person had one mild episode of biliary colic.

You don't do a colectomy on a patient complaining of constipation b/c they're taking too much oxycodone.


I'm sure there are plenty of good surgeons, but I also think there are probably many bad ones as well. As with any other specialty.
 
The reasons for malpractice are likely going to be different based on the specialty and procedure. I'm sure there are procedures which you guys may be right; claims are predominantly due to the occurrence of known risks. I'm not sure how such a case would be successful if informed consent is given? Maybe you can educate me.

However there are a variety of reasons for why malpractice can occur. So let's not generalize here, unless you have a bunch of studies to list. Misdiagnosis, lack of informed consent, surgeries deemed unnecessary, intraoperative negligence can all be reasons for a successful malpractice suit.

claims are always going to fall into those categories.... they aren't going to claim that we are suing because they died, even though they told us he died... they are going to claim that they died because they were misdiagnosed, or due to intraoperative negligence...

There will be a paper coming out shortly in Journal of Surgical Research on Appendectomy lawsuits where 234 cases between 20 years that went to court that were reported in the Westlaw database were analyzed.... the most common cited reason was delay in diagnosis (67%) followed by negligence (16%). Failure of informed consent was only 3 cases. Most claimed delay in diagnosis due to ruptured appy (77.3%). Most common negligence was "failure to completely remove the appendix" (53%)... others were injury to large bowel, injury to iliac artery or aorta....

So, those are the ones that went to trial (not counting settled ones, which are most commonly settled not because of guilt, but because of convinence)... 72% of the delay in diagnosis ruled in favor of the physician, 71% of the negligence in favor of the physician... 2 of 3 informed consent were in favor of the plantiff... so, yeah, a great majority of cases that go to court fail, and its because people think that doctors didn't treat them appropriately and they developed ruptured appendicitis... wonder if the ABx treatment is going to improve upon that...

Another fun fact... 99% of surgeons are projected to face a malpractice claim by age 65, compared to 75% of physicians in "low-risk" specialties (this in the NEJM 2011, http://www.nejm.org/doi/full/10.1056/NEJMsa1012370#t=article)... so :shrug:
 
I get that Surgery can be a First Option, but this is usually because other medicinal options are not as efficacious. This occurs in severe illnesses/late stage conditions, correct? Someone has a severe EDH, there's no option but to evacuate. Someone has an thoracic aorta tear, there's no other option but to repair it. I get that... I am more concerned about the use of surgery in situations where the risk may/clearly outweigh the benefits.

You don't do a joint replacement on someone who has mild arthritis.

You don't take someone's tonsils out because they're slightly enlarged.

You don't remove a gallbladder because a person had one mild episode of biliary colic.

You don't do a colectomy on a patient complaining of constipation b/c they're taking too much oxycodone.


I'm sure there are plenty of good surgeons, but I also think there are probably many bad ones as well. As with any other specialty.

what's the treatment for stage 1 colon cancer? That's a pretty early condition, and it's still surgical resection...

what's the treatment for inguinal hernia?

The **** you are arguing for is not something that surgeons advocate for. So are you just making **** up to make **** up?
 
You don't take someone's tonsils out because they're slightly enlarged.

Uh oh, it just got real. Why you gotta drag me into this?

The main reason to take out tonsils is because it reimburses great (turn on your sarcasm meter people). Parents and patients calling every few minutes whining afterwards adds to the joy.

Btw, I think we all operate recklessly, keep up the good fight ;-)
 
Last edited:
Why is it that the less someone knows about a subject, the more violently they believe themselves to be right?

GoPens, here's a quote you would do well to remember

"In medicine, you're either humble or you're about to be."

As someone who's been lurking this forum for quite a few years, reading as these med students/residents/attendings progress in experience and as someone with more years of experience working as a healthcare professional than you've probably been out of high school, you need take a good hard look in a mirror.

The most dangerous people in medicine are those who aren't willing to consider the possibility that they're wrong or aren't willing to check themselves and reassess their understanding of a situation, especially in areas where they don't have as much knowledge. The only person I'm getting that vibe from on here is you.

I have a history as a patient that makes me not particularly fond of doctors, yet the impression I've gotten from the people on this forum is not one of money grubbing from procedures, casual attitudes toward operative decision making, arrogance, and the like but rather discussions about errors and how to prevent them, how they weigh on the surgeons. Discussions on literature and best practices for doing x, y, z. Based on my experiences, I'm primed to see jerks and unethical behavior, yet I'm not concerned that the people in this forum are trying to do anything other than learn to be skilled competent surgeons.

You misconstrue literature and use really stretched or over simplified attempts at logic to support your ideas about a field that's hard to understand with minimal background/experience/exposure.

I assure you, if you were ever in a position to actually have someone's life in your hands based on decisions you make, money is never at the forefront. It's generally "please don't let me screw this up" followed by doing what you think is best for the patient. Until you've had that responsibility, I think you should keep your head down and learn what you can from the people who deal with those decisions multiple times a day, every day.

Cuz right now, the person with the most dangerous attitude for patients is you.


But that was probably all for nothing

"you can't use logic to argue a person out of a position they didn't use logic to get into"
 
  • Like
Reactions: 1 user
wholeheartedly, you're ridiculous. In medicine, people are entitled to have their opinions. Experience alone does not guarantee expertise.

I am not attacking the general surgeons on this forum. I am attacking the portion of surgeons that perform unnecessary surgeries. Acting like unnecessary surgery doesn't happen is nothing more than completely turning a blind eye to an issue that occurs in medicine. There are plenty of studies that indicate that nearly 50 % of the spending in healthcare is unnecessary and unnecessary surgery does occur. Do I know all the studies on it ? No. But through personal and family experiences I have seen many surgeries performed that did not need to happen or were not done properly.

Just because I don't want to agree with all the surgeons on this forum who want to be right about 100% of their operations (which is impossible b/c no one is perfect) and the whole concept that 100% of surgeons always do a great job is just laughable.There are good surgeons and bad surgeons.

This is possibly the most biased forum and clearly there's no room here to admit the possibility that a surgeon's work may be subpar and that room for improvement exists. I'm not saying I'm an expert and I am speculating, but I have significant doubts that only 2 or 3 % of surgeries in this country are "unnecessary". I would suspect the number to be higher.

http://www.washingtonpost.com/opini...1c439c-0041-11e3-9a3e-916de805f65d_story.html

http://www.cnn.com/2007/HEALTH/07/27/healthmag.surgery/
 
Last edited:
I understand that there are a small portion that are unnecessarily done. Same goes with all specialties in the rare case of unnecessary administration of medicine that can be treated conservatively. I'm not sure what career path you are thinking of...by this topic, I'm guessing it's not surgery. However, the knowledge requires years and years of training. You and I both don't have the expertise to figure all this out by a longshot in our current positions. As everyone goes through their training, they'll gain the knowledge to know how to manage patients.

I would take the advice of the surgeons in the forum highly, since they spend years going through rigorous training and intensely reading about surgery. Bystanders like us(aka the non-surgeons) can be involved in discussions, and give opinions. However, making blanket statements saying that all surgery is harmful can lead to people raising their eyebrows and wondering if someone is scared of a little scalpel.

No offense, but the beginning posts of your opinions came off as a conspiracy theorist kind of manner, which is probably what made people raise their eyebrows too haha.
 
Is this debate about surgeons or about treatment of appendicitis?

Trauma surgeons through the last 15 years have dramatically reduced the number if indicated traumas that necessitate surgery. We have learned the benefits of non-operative management for a variety of conditions.

Likewise other fields, like you say, colon cancer, clearly right not benefit from surgery.

Then there are some pathologies which are grey area. Often this is where surgeon and patient preference have more if a role. Non incarcerated hernia and mild appendicitis fit into this. For sure.

And of course, by and large, surgeons aren't the ones that get the patients! Remember most patients by and large are referred by non-surgeons for an opinion because they believe surgery may be indicated. There are lots of pcp's who won't refer their patients to a surgeon when things are in the grey area. You know.... Spine surgery for back pain, etc....

There are bad doctors and good doctors. Same with surgeons.

One thing I don't think you are appreciating though so early in your career is just what those risks of surgery are. No one appreciates the risks more than us. I can't tell you how often it's the opposite scenario.... Patients and their doctors begging for surgery when risks are just too high or indication just not strong enough! For example, lots of oncological problems.

But to concentrate in appendectomy.... It's just too simplistic. We have known for years that antibiotics in healthy young men like in the navy on a submarine generally do well without surgery for run of the mill appendicitis. But it's a whole different scenario when you a diabetic with heart disease.

I suggest you just tone it down and use your experience to learn as much as you can and recognize you aren't the only one who has thought about these things before! Many of us surgeons have to!

Good discussion though.
 
Well I suppose I'm jumping into the fray a bit late, but here I go, thanks to a bit of insomnia...

GoPens, you are oversimplifying surgical decision-making (as others have noted) and you are underestimating the potential for complications from seemingly uncomplicated disease processes.

Besides me, has anyone else had appendicitis? Who has experienced peritonitis? And less importantly, who has received an open appendectomy in the year 2000 simply because the available surgeon at the rural hospital near their college did not have laparoscopic skills or the hospital did not have the appropriate equipment? :clap:

Ok. Moving on then.

You seem to define the act of making a surgical incision as an inherently more reckless and risky endeavor in any situation where there are any other non-surgical options. The decision-making is quite a bit more complex than that and requires knowledge of the individual patient and their comorbidities, as well as the available facilities as the hospital.

Additionally, in accounting for costs in healthcare, you are neglecting to include an evaluation of length of stay and use of hospital resources.

A healthy young patient receiving a lap appy for uncomplicated appendicitis frequently leaves the hospital the same day (if surgery is performed in the morning) or is discharged the next morning on rounds. Their hospital stays are coded as "observation" for billing purposes and their insurance companies are billed as such - a significant cost savings over an inpatient admission, I assure you. A Tylenol tab costs $25 at the hospital in part because there is no line-item charge on the bill for nursing or nursing assistant care, for the pharmacist who dispenses it, for the tube system that delivers it from the pharmacy, etc etc etc. If all you need is Tylenol, it is much more cost effective and efficient to receive it at home.

If that same patient stays for antibiotics and observation to ensure their status does not decline, they are at the hospital for several days. A certain percentage will improve, but will have used up more hospital resources overall. The will also likely not return to work/productivity as quickly as those receiving surgery as their primary treatment and will have a lower risk of antibiotic-related illnesses such as C. Diff. The others will go on to require surgical intervention anyway. In a low-risk patient, the bias toward early surgery is sourced in the overall cost of treating the patient and the time to return to function and quality of life.

In a patient with comorbidities which elevate the risk of GETA and surgery, one might think that antibiotics would always be preferred for uncomplicated appendicitis. Unfortunately, that same patient is actually at greater risk if antibiotics are not effective and they eventually require surgical intervention. So we can cross our fingers that they are part of the percentage who improve with antibiotics alone, while hoping they do not decompensate to sepsis/complicated appendicitis and require surgical intervention when their surgical risk is even greater. Either way, you are, on average, increasing the LOS and use of hospital resources.

The above noted scenarios are all situations I have witnessed and none are "better" for the patient or the healthcare system/costs incurred against early surgery. Treating with antibiotics CAN be a viable option but it is beyond foolish to assume that the decision to do so is without risk or strain to the healthcare system.

Lastly, unless you have either HAD a surgical abdomen or cared for a significant number of patients who fall into that category, I would not be so hasty as to proclaim what treatment you would choose. No pain medication really totally controls the pain from peritoneal inflammation, localized or general. Unless you've languished for several days with fevers, anorexia, extreme fatigue and an inability to carry on with your daily activities due to an abdominal infection treated with antibiotics or have seen patients do the same, it is arrogance to baldly state what your choice would be. I have been on both sides of the doctor/patient paradigm with a surgical problem; neither the patient nor the surgeon should take the decision to operate lightly but it is pure egotism and arrogance to assume you can substitute the experience of either for what you learned in the first 2 years of medical school.
 
wholeheartedly, you're ridiculous. In medicine, people are entitled to have their opinions. Experience alone does not guarantee expertise.

I am not attacking the general surgeons on this forum. I am attacking the portion of surgeons that perform unnecessary surgeries. Acting like unnecessary surgery doesn't happen is nothing more than completely turning a blind eye to an issue that occurs in medicine. There are plenty of studies that indicate that nearly 50 % of the spending in healthcare is unnecessary and unnecessary surgery does occur. Do I know all the studies on it ? No. But through personal and family experiences I have seen many surgeries performed that did not need to happen or were not done properly.

Just because I don't want to agree with all the surgeons on this forum who want to be right about 100% of their operations (which is impossible b/c no one is perfect) and the whole concept that 100% of surgeons always do a great job is just laughable.There are good surgeons and bad surgeons.

This is possibly the most biased forum and clearly there's no room here to admit the possibility that a surgeon's work may be subpar and that room for improvement exists. I'm not saying I'm an expert and I am speculating, but I have significant doubts that only 2 or 3 % of surgeries in this country are "unnecessary". I would suspect the number to be higher.

http://www.washingtonpost.com/opini...1c439c-0041-11e3-9a3e-916de805f65d_story.html

http://www.cnn.com/2007/HEALTH/07/27/healthmag.surgery/

I'm curious if you actually read those articles? Not sure they really help your case. . .
 
This thread is like watching someone get their ass tore up on rounds over and over again :smuggrin::laugh::laugh: I am enjoying this.
 
Just because a small fraction of people may "unnecessarily" have an appendectomy does not mean surgeons "suck". Ever sat beside someone with appendicitis get instant relief while on antibiotics? I have. And I was also one to rush them to emergency surgery.

Police officers have an 11% shooting error rate. Should we say all cops suck and unnecessarily shoot people? Should we ask them to ask criminals in a polite way to not harm people? Should we prevent them from carrying guns? No. Because 89% of the time they are saving lives.

OP, you may not always sound like an idiot, but when you do, you post on SDN.

Why don't you study hard, rock boards, and match in surgery. Be the change you want to see... And we'll see how that goes for you and your patients.
 
  • Like
Reactions: 1 user
This has been a glorious train wreck to watch and I can't but applaud the civility of forum members. Gopen, FWIW I've seen FAR more people rendered nonfunctional due to inappropriate opioid prescribing than surgical complications.
 
wholeheartedly, you're ridiculous. In medicine, people are entitled to have their opinions. Experience alone does not guarantee expertise.

I am not attacking the general surgeons on this forum. I am attacking the portion of surgeons that perform unnecessary surgeries. Acting like unnecessary surgery doesn't happen is nothing more than completely turning a blind eye to an issue that occurs in medicine. There are plenty of studies that indicate that nearly 50 % of the spending in healthcare is unnecessary and unnecessary surgery does occur. Do I know all the studies on it ? No. But through personal and family experiences I have seen many surgeries performed that did not need to happen or were not done properly.

Just because I don't want to agree with all the surgeons on this forum who want to be right about 100% of their operations (which is impossible b/c no one is perfect) and the whole concept that 100% of surgeons always do a great job is just laughable.There are good surgeons and bad surgeons.

This is possibly the most biased forum and clearly there's no room here to admit the possibility that a surgeon's work may be subpar and that room for improvement exists. I'm not saying I'm an expert and I am speculating, but I have significant doubts that only 2 or 3 % of surgeries in this country are "unnecessary". I would suspect the number to be higher.

http://www.washingtonpost.com/opini...1c439c-0041-11e3-9a3e-916de805f65d_story.html

http://www.cnn.com/2007/HEALTH/07/27/healthmag.surgery/

Dude, you are a pretty good troll. You don't even accept the reality that other people have more experience to offer valid opinions. I came to the forum to read interesting perspectives, and what I got was an ostentatious student trying to outsmart medical professionals...
 
I get that Surgery can be a First Option, but this is usually because other medicinal options are not as efficacious. This occurs in severe illnesses/late stage conditions, correct? Someone has a severe EDH, there's no option but to evacuate. Someone has an thoracic aorta tear, there's no other option but to repair it. I get that... I am more concerned about the use of surgery in situations where the risk may/clearly outweigh the benefits.

You don't do a joint replacement on someone who has mild arthritis.

You don't take someone's tonsils out because they're slightly enlarged.

You don't remove a gallbladder because a person had one mild episode of biliary colic.

You don't do a colectomy on a patient complaining of constipation b/c they're taking too much oxycodone.


I'm sure there are plenty of good surgeons, but I also think there are probably many bad ones as well. As with any other specialty.

I think we may have just found one of Obama's talking points authors from the healthcare push.

"Take your pain pill, grandma."

"Those surgeons... cutting off legs and **** all the time. And why? Because it pays better."
 
Last edited:
Clinical Medical Student now. I've seen enough so far to see how low of a threshold many of these general surgeons have for operating.

Colectomy to "cure" a patient of constipation who happened to also be on 80 mg of oxycodone daily pre-op.



Cholecystectomy done on a patient complaining of lower left quadrant abdominal pain after eating. Surgery did nothing.

80 mg Qday is child's play. Come talk at the big-boy table when it's 400 IR and 320 ER.
 
Gopens67 =troll haha

An hour of entertainment reading this thread.

What have I learned?

GoPens67 is an idiot, haha.

You bet your ass hes not saying this BS in front of his attendings.
Or maybe he did, embarrassing himself with his ignorance on surgical practice and comes here to troll, and act like his opinion and crappy arguments actually means anything.

I like how his most recent post says "Lets not generalize here" when all of his previous posts only minimally hold any water by clinging desperately on the blanket statement of "in general".

*****.
 
Similar to SLUser I have been in practice barely one year.

Based on many MM conferences and being on the receiving end of disasters in training and in practice, it seems like most problems originate as an error in judgment not technique. Whether its operating when you shouldn't, not operating when you should or just doing to wrong operation- it doesn't matter how awesome you are- bad things are going to happen. These are cognitive exercises based on education and experience in particular (read- I tried or saw that tried once and it didn't work so I'm not gonna do that again...)

It is wrong to do a segmental colectomy for toxic colitis with known UC (or any diagnosis for that matter), it is wrong to take a run at a rectal cancer that is clearly invading the pelvic sidewall prior to radiation, it is wrong to try to fix your own failed hepaticojejunostomy that you made for the bile duct injury you created.

Real surgical training is learning who needs which operation when. (Might be one reason we still have oral boards and many other fields of medicine have abandoned them- they test judgement!!)
 
However there are a variety of reasons for why malpractice can occur. So let's not generalize here, unless you have a bunch of studies to list. Misdiagnosis, lack of informed consent, surgeries deemed unnecessary, intraoperative negligence can all be reasons for a successful malpractice suit.

Enjoying the thread but as an aside, obstetricians (that's what I do) are almost always sued for failure to perform a c-section.
 
When you operate everyday, it's easy to forget about the seriousness of what you are doing.

I have to say I am enjoying this thread. Though after having practiced surgery for several years, I'd say that when you actually do operate (or decide to operate) every day, it's HARD not to be constantly humbled by the seriousness of what you are doing.

Proceed. Please
 
I have to say I am enjoying this thread. Though after having practiced surgery for several years, I'd say that when you actually do operate (or decide to operate) every day, it's HARD not to be constantly humbled by the seriousness of what you are doing.

Proceed. Please

This thread hasn't been active since August. :p
 
As just a laymen with a possible future in medicine in mind i found this sparring back and forth between 'elites' (what i consider surgeons to be) educational and informative.
 
Sure, you will have surgeons that screw up big time. They are called mistakes, and that's why there is malpractice insurance. For example, it's probably not a great idea to toss in a Foley catheter because you don't have a gastrostomy tube on hand, even though the procedure is for a gastrostomy. (This actually happened.)
 
Your wrong, Every Surgeon does all that is necessary. I smile as your place dimenishes. :)
 
Like a sniper. :)

Interesting. I'm inclined to say that you cannot say all surgeons do all that is necessary - foley catheter does not have a port for medication, and this patient (quadriplegic with cerebral palsy, btw) was without their prescribed seizure medication for 6 days - 19 seizures in 6 days, in a patient who is otherwise managed so well that they have 1 or 2 seizures a week at most. I'm fairly certain this surgeon didn't do everything that was necessary, do you?
 
- foley catheter does not have a port for medication, and this patient (quadriplegic with cerebral palsy, btw) was without their prescribed seizure medication for 6 days - 19 seizures in 6 days, in a patient who is otherwise managed so well that they have 1 or 2 seizures a week at most. I'm fairly certain this surgeon didn't do everything that was necessary, do you?


Who inturrupted that surgeon? Answer now.
 
Top