DO school or the Carribean

This forum made possible through the generous support of SDN members, donors, and sponsors. Thank you.

SnoopDoc

Junior Member
15+ Year Member
20+ Year Member
Joined
Feb 27, 2003
Messages
9
Reaction score
0
Hows it goin? I was just wondering if I could get some opinions regarding this issue: My ultimate goal is to one day practice medicine. My question is this: I have applied to several DO schools and St. Georges school of medicine in the Carrib. in case I dont get accepted into an allopathic med school. Which one, however, will give me the best opportunity to gain a residency in a surgical or otherwise competitive specialty. Thanks for your time and opinions.


Peace out

Members don't see this ad.
 
Flip a coin. There are downsides to the DO path and the SGU path. Does the DO philosophy and the manipulation aspect appeal to you? If so definitely go DO. You will have no licensing issues in any of the fifty states. If you don't really want to be a DO and are an MD wannabe then go to SGU which is a really good option in the Caribbean. I would look very carefully before choosing any of the other Caribbean schools over the DO route though. As a DO you will be a US trained physician. The sun is really beginning to shine on the DO route in my opinion.
 
Go FMG because your heart is not into being a osteopath...Also, people like you make me upset...for using the DO route as a fall back. It's like, osteo school wasn't good enough for you the first time around but, looks great when you don't get into an allopathic school. Plus, all the DO schools I've talked to look down on this (I had a friend get rejected because of this, he had decent stats (27P MCAT, 3.45 gpa).
 
Members don't see this ad :)
I agree with hossofadoc, go the MD route any way you can because it's people such as yourself that give us the rap "we are DO's because we couldn't get into MD schools"

Just a thought. Good luck to you.
 
I think the previous posters are full of hooey.

that's right, hooey.

I was in the same boat; I applied MD, DO, and international MD. I was going to attend in that order, generally. I was happy to get into an allopathic school, but osteopathic schools are still US schools.

If you want to be a general surgeon, you can breathe and walk through the doors of most residencies nowadays, though this may change with the change in residency work laws. If you want to be a neurosurgeon, you'll have issues whichever direction you take, but MANY more from a Carrib school.

One shouldn't exclude oneself from DO just because he/she doesn't buy completely into "the osteopathic philosophy", Recall that the philosophy has mutated in the last century, and hasn't been a constant. And the majority of the "philosophy" to which I imagine you refer is HEAL THE PATIENT, AND CAUSE NO HARM. No real difference in philosophies in the practice of either MD or DO, and they are interchangable, really.

The only thing is that it's more difficult to obtain a residency as a DO as a rule. Given the same numbers, generally an MD candidate will be chosen over a DO candidate. (don't shoot the messenger! i report the news, i don't create it!)

Why is there this discrepency? Perhaps because GENERALLY it is easier to obtain admission to osteopathic schools, for whatever reason. Perhaps because the general medical establishment is mostly MDs because 85% of practicing physicians are MDs... Perhaps because MDs are publishing more per capita than their DO counterparts. Who knows? But it's a fact.

So my advice:
Go US MD. If that doesn't work out, go US DO. If that doesn't work out, and you don't want to reapply, go to the beach med schools. I hesitate with them because i think they have to work the hardest, and get the highest board scores, to be competitive for residencies. And there is 100X MORE of a stigma with a carrib MD than US DO. (that's obviously my opinion).

whew! it's nice being a fourth year; i have so much time on my hands!
 
Snoop, this is a tough issue to be un-emotional about, but I'll do my best to give you my point of view, as someone considering a DO degree.

I'm investigating lots of schools, both DO and MD, and there do seem to be some differences in terms of admissions requirements. But not nearly enough of them to make me think one or the other would be "easier."

I think it's a mistake to consider a DO school to be similar to a Carribean school, in terms of being an easier in, or a good "just in case" thing to fall back on. If you went to a DO school for a reason like those, I think two things would happen: you'd be severely disappointed to find how hard you'd need to work, and you'd be taking a spot from someone who really wanted to be there. A very uncool situation, all around.

You say your ultimate goal is to practice medicine. Cool. That's excellent. But I think it's important to know -- for yourself, and not just for committees -- why you want to, and also what kind of medicine you want to practice.

I'm leaning toward DO because it fits with my idea about what doctors should do, and how they should do it. Med school is med school, dude. There's no such thing as easy.
 
Originally posted by hossofadoc
Go FMG because your heart is not into being a osteopath...Also, people like you make me upset...for using the DO route as a fall back.

I agree in principle, but I have mixed emotions about this.

I don't like the "I'm only at a DO school because I didn't get into an MD school" mentality. However, I have seen some of these students really get into OMM. I think that this helps expand awareness of the (few) differences in Osteopathic medicine. It also helps get out information about how there really aren't any other curriculum differences between DO and MD schools.

Just please don't go DO and then spend your time there complaining about the Osteopathic philosophy and/or OMM. :rolleyes: If you go, please go willingly and with an open mind.
 
Snoop,

I was in a similar situation last year. I also was accepted to SGU and several osteopathic schools. To say that I applied osteopathic in addition to allopathic because I couldn't get into allopathic is an unfair accusation for people to make in general. Throughout my life I respected the osteopathic philosophy but always wanted to keep my options open. That doesn't mean that I have to choose one over the other. Since attending an osteopathic medical school, I must say that I love it, and think it just makes sense to look at the body and medicine in this manner. Everyone tries to attach soley manipulation to osteopathic medicine, and that's only one component of the osteopathic philosophy. You never really truly understand the philosophy until you hear doctors lecturing about osteopathic medicine and their experiences (even after reading a few books about it).

As for why not SGU, I think any DO school will out-shine a Caribbean med school (at least the Caribbean schools I researched). I wish more pre-meds would investigate the option of a career in osteopathic medicine, as I think it is beginning to shine in medical education. I've talked to friends in MD programs, and the program at LECOM, for example, is far better than what they're receiving. (This is just one instance, please don't think I'm generalizing)

Best of luck in your search.

njdo
 
Everyone tries to attach soley manipulation to osteopathic medicine, and that's only one component of the osteopathic philosophy. You never really truly understand the philosophy until you hear doctors lecturing about osteopathic medicine and their experiences (even after reading a few books about it).
I couldn?t agree more. Osteopathic medicine DOES NOT EQUAL MANIPULATION. OMM is a tool, nothing more, nothing less. If you become a radiologist and never touch a patient again, osteopathic medicine still gives you a much better understanding of structure and function. Through the training it inherently offers more hours of anatomy, biomechanics, and physiology education. I heard a D.O. radiologist speak this week. He was speaking of osteopathic influence in his practice. He admits to obviously never having a need to use OMM, but he did stress how an osteopathic degree offered him a much greater awareness of the "the human form's interconnected nature" and how this aids him in diagnosis. He says his MD counterparts have slightly different philosophies and it often costs the patients more tests because, in his opinion, they cant predict as well as he can the effect some imaged pathology has on some other part of the body. He can foresee this and it helps him steer the patient to the right next step. Hence, please remember, OMM is a tool, nothing more, nothing less.

Also, please dont fall into the premed hype of "you'll never get respect or the residency of choice as a D.O." This couldnt be any further from the truth these days and will only get even better in years to come. D.O.s are in just about every major "power program" in the same proportions they are in the general medical population. A friend of mine is finishing her D.O. EM residency and just interviewed at Harvard, Hopkins, Cleveland Clinic and UPenn for her fellowship. When I asked if the programs asked her anything about being a D.O, she said one of the Harvard docs realized she was a D.O. at the end of the interview and said "oh, you're a D.O., cool, my partner's a D.O."

Some last reasons why I would stay in the states: offshore grads are going to have tougher times coming back stateside as the feds increase security measures for visas and the resulting red tape. You also arent licensed until after residency, so you cant make money moonlighting. Domestic D.O.s and MDs are usually licensed after their internship/transitional year.

Give the D.O. route a serious look and not just blow it off as a backup. D.O.s are the quickest growing sector of healthcare. As a whole, they're a young group of doctors (average age is probably in the low 30's). Because of their overall younger age, you can have an immediate impact in shaping the direction of the group because of the smaller size. Seriously, what can be better? You can shape this profession how you'd like it to be shaped, granted you get involved. That cant be said of the allopathic world, where tradition and an almost ritualistic attitude reign supreme.

good luck.
 
Originally posted by PimplePopperMD

The only thing is that it's more difficult to obtain a residency as a DO as a rule. Given the same numbers, generally an MD candidate will be chosen over a DO candidate. (don't shoot the messenger! i report the news, i don't create it!)

Actually, all things being the same (same board scores, same grades, same EC, same # of prestigious publications, etc) - the residency committee will go with the schools they are familar with, not the de facto "MD over DO". An ACGME residency program in florida may know about Nova and St. George but may have never heard of UNECOM or VCOM. If there are 4 applicants, each from one of those schools mentioned, with all exactly the same CV, then the program will choose Nova. Why? Because they don't know anything about UNECOM or VCOM (how rigorous, how difficult, the quality of the student, etc). So why Nova over St. George. It's all about the $$$$$. Given the EXACT same stats, the program will get funding if they have a US grad, and receive no funding for a FMG.

This all depends on if they all have the same stats - if the UNECOM applicant has a 98% score on the COMLEX (and took USMLE I and scored 250), and has co-authored several papers in Nature, then the program MIGHT choose that applicant (depends on other factors such as personality, compatibility, etc).

When it is time for GME, PDs don't care that DO schools have lower stats than MD schools. Why would they care about undergraduate GPA or MCAT? The applicants obviously made it though 3-4 years of hell, did well, got LORs from attendings during clinical, did well on boards - why would it matter that DO schools have lower stats than MD school?

Anyway, just clarifying some point.

To the OP, I would go DO over Caribbean MD - ALL Caribbean MD schools are in the business model - trying to make money from students. Just make sure that you can accept the fact that you won't have a MD after your name and will never get immediate recognition from the public that you're a doctor based on your initials alone. If that's too much to handle - then for your sanity, go the Caribbean route.


*In no way did I suggest that UNECOM or VCOM are lesser schools compare to NSUCOM and St. George. I chose UNECOM because it is a polar opposite (Maine compare to Florida), and VCOM because it is so new.
 
Stay in the U.S., fall back or not, DO in U.S. is better then MD out of the country. But if you get into a U.S. MD program then you know what to do from there.
 
QUOTE]Stay in the U.S., fall back or not, DO in U.S. is better then MD out of the country[/QUOTE]

Whoa, Deuce, this is the most I've ever agreed with you. We're making progress! That being said, you had to go and make this statement.....
But if you get into a U.S. MD program then you know what to do from there.

No, what do you do? ;) Remind me again what kind of expertise you have to make such a blanket statemet? A bio degree?... or are you not even a college graduate yet?

Thanks for the advice. You were so informative!! :laugh:
 
This thread cracks me up!! First of all, I think it's weird that people use international and osteopathic schools as a backup. Second of all, BACKUP??? THAT WORD HAS NO DEFINITION IN THE FIELD OF MEDICINE. There is no back up. If you are an a-hole you'll get rejected by both. If you're a baby, you'll get rejected by both. This superficial heirarchy of medicine really confuses me. I'm waiting for someone to use the old Chiropractic route as a "back up" (no pun intended) Man, if you want to be an M.D., you'll find a way. It may take time and dedication. If you want ot be a DO, then you'll also find a way and hey if you want to be a chiropractor, then I say go for it!!! So to whoever began this thread, I have to give you my personal advice.. .please don't waste your efforts with the AACOMAS application if your heart isn't there. But please, for the love of God, can we get rid of this whole "backup" idea. It's not undergrad anymore!!!
Good luck
 
Members don't see this ad :)
Originally posted by PreMedAdAG
This thread cracks me up!! First of all, I think it's weird that people use international and osteopathic schools as a backup. Second of all, BACKUP??? THAT WORD HAS NO DEFINITION IN THE FIELD OF MEDICINE. There is no back up. If you are an a-hole you'll get rejected by both. If you're a baby, you'll get rejected by both. This superficial heirarchy of medicine really confuses me. I'm waiting for someone to use the old Chiropractic route as a "back up" (no pun intended) Man, if you want to be an M.D., you'll find a way. It may take time and dedication. If you want ot be a DO, then you'll also find a way and hey if you want to be a chiropractor, then I say go for it!!! So to whoever began this thread, I have to give you my personal advice.. .please don't waste your efforts with the AACOMAS application if your heart isn't there. But please, for the love of God, can we get rid of this whole "backup" idea. It's not undergrad anymore!!!
Good luck

Like luckystar said.... Aaaamenn!!!
 
sorry to burst all u pre-DO or DO-student bubbles, but a large chunk of ur classmates will be MD rejects and used DO schools as backups. that's reality, go ahead and ask around. while u personally may disagree with the idea of using ur beloved DO schools as backups, other premeds have no qualms about it. if they can get into DO schools with this attitude (and lower stats) then so be it. u have no right to tell them what to do. im sick and tired of hearing DO students b*tch about how they're viewed as backups by premeds. they wouldnt be if they werent statistically easier to get into than MD schools. plenty of my friends who didnt get into MD schools this year are going to reapply to MD schools next year, with the addition of DO schools as backups. none really give a rat's ass about OMM or whatever the hell it is. theyre just desperate to get in somewhere.

to the OP: go DO. u can still apply for allo surgical residencies. within competitive specialties, residency directors consider MD's, DO's, and foreign MD's in that order. if u really care about that MD after ur name on ur white coat, then go SGU (of course). just realize that there is a significant stigma against carribean MD's here.
 
Hey zero, is that your screename or just your amount of personality? Where do you go to school? My guess is that every med school in the country has rejects from other schools. Harvard has rejects from John's Hopkins, and Hopkin's has rejects from Stanford. Get my drift?? Wayne State has rejects from PCOM or OSUCOM, and TCOM has rejects from Baylor. It is all geographic and cost in nature, and the heirarchy is blurred. I gave up a seat at what I feel to be a sub-par MD program in Texas for a nationally ranked DO primary care program. I agree that USNews rankings are pretty subjective, but if they are created by the Deans of schools, how do you explain multiple DO schools on the list for the top 50 medical schools for primary care?? There are a lot more MD programs than 50 right? I expect you will deserve a real nice spanking from your first DO attending, but my guess is that you will have learned by then that you are incorrect about all your assumptions. And for your info, most program directors rank students based on scores, not titles. I know plenty of program directors who would take a DO over an MD if their stats were even marginally better than the MD's, and vice versa. I don't know any that would take the MD over the DO based on title alone. And here is a real wake up for you. Many program directors of allopathic primary care programs are now DO's. Times are a changin my friend, so don't get caught wearing grandpa's pajamas just cause you carry his attitude from 1950.
 
Originally posted by zer0el
sorry to burst all u pre-DO or DO-student bubbles, but a large chunk of ur classmates will be MD rejects and used DO schools as backups. that's reality, go ahead and ask around. while u personally may disagree with the idea of using ur beloved DO schools as backups, other premeds have no qualms about it. if they can get into DO schools with this attitude (and lower stats) then so be it. u have no right to tell them what to do. im sick and tired of hearing DO students b*tch about how they're viewed as backups by premeds. they wouldnt be if they werent statistically easier to get into than MD schools. plenty of my friends who didnt get into MD schools this year are going to reapply to MD schools next year, with the addition of DO schools as backups. none really give a rat's ass about OMM or whatever the hell it is. theyre just desperate to get in somewhere.

to the OP: go DO. u can still apply for allo surgical residencies. within competitive specialties, residency directors consider MD's, DO's, and foreign MD's in that order. if u really care about that MD after ur name on ur white coat, then go SGU (of course). just realize that there is a significant stigma against carribean MD's here.

Sorry to disappoint, but you didn't burst any bubbles of mine...;)

Anyway, I am aware that what you say happens a lot of the time, but I liked what PreMedAdAG had to say about how things SHOULD be. She gave her opinion, which is what the OP asked for, just like you gave yours at the end of your post. Respect that!

The problem with some people who think of the DO degree as a second choice to a MD is that they may end up with a chip on their shoulder of considerable size. That's not healthy, and it certainly doesn't benefit the patient. If one does choose to go to an osteopathic school, no matter what their story is, then keep an open mind and strive to be a good physician, just like they should at any other school.
 
Thanks Lucky! Hey Zero, like Lucky, I had no bubble to burst in the first place. As I sat, a lowlife undergrad, all I was saying to this one guy is, hey, if you want to be an MD, be one. If you want to be a DO, be one. There's no point in haggling over the concrete fact that there are D.O.'s who were M.D. rejects. I have no doubt in my mind that my future classmates will no doubt forge through OMM material and osteo philosophy with a chip on their shoulders and burrs up their asses, but I have no qualms with telling those who are trying to make a decision, to make one based on their own selfish needs. My selfish needs include becoming a DO, his on the other hand head towards being an MD. So, Zero, I'm assuming your in osteo school right now, my best advice to you (speaking from a stress free zone) is just take a deep breath, I wasn't trying to save the DO world with my one SDN post.

Oh.. and Futr: nice post... and a big phat AMEN to you too! :)
 
I noticed we're a little witty, sarcastic and punchy today.... damn i like that attitude!!! Just teasing... no hard feelings zero!!
 
Some residency directors prefer SGU grads over DOs and some prefer DOs over SGU grad. It depends so much on what the residency is familiar with. I have talked to many, many DOs and SGU grads and it all depends on the residency director/program. SGU basically has a list of residencies where their grads are preferred.
 
Since I was involved (as are all of the residents) during our rank meeting, I can give you some first hand information...not this junk heresay.
Program directors and chairs that have been around a while realize that 1. current residency class effects the future classes (they will virtually NEVER have a FMG in multiple sequential classes, and frequently will have 1 or more DO's in sequential classes) but if it in an allopathic residency, mainland MD's are preferred.
2. If the board score in GREAT (USMLE), MD or DO does not matter...unless requirment #1 has already been met.
3. Things are different state to state...All Midwest and Eastern states will have more DO's regardless.
4. DO's have their own residencies, so you get 2 shots at whatever you want.
5. Not all FMG's and DO programs are created or equated as equals. SGU and Ross are the 2 FMG programs that are highly regarded...while the older more established DO programs have better track records.
6. If the guy/gal is a total d!ck during interviews...all of the above is ignored.
7. If the guy/gal rocked their audition rotation...all of the above (except 6) is ignored.
 
I think I can answer this question better than most here. I went to a caribbean school without ever even thinking about DO school. I work with other DO's FMG's and AMG's in my residency. To be honest there isn't a whole hell of a lot of differences in the caliber of resident. You will deifiintely have to work harder if you go the caribbean route NO DOUBT about that. DO's are making great strides in the medical community and are on staff at every great academic health center in this country. I think more of the DO vs FMG worry comes from premeds. As you progress in your training it begins to take a back seat more and more. For me personally I would never choose DO because honestly I don't believe in the so called OMT philosophy. Be aware that 99.9% of DO grads will NEVER practice that. In my residency, every DO I know doesnt pracitce it. And furthermore when push comes to shove I don't know one DO resident who chose DO school over an MD school. I know that may not be what people want to hear, but that is reality. As an FMG, the only impact I have ever felt is the occassional gray haired Harvard trained sub-specialist who has smirked when he found out where I went to school. that same idiot will also smirk on the DO degreee. I think where DO's suffer is from the patient perspective. A lot of the public still doesn't eqaute DO with the same as MD. and that is unfortunate. MD's get instant respect from pts, while DO's are often scrutinized by the ignorant laymen. To answer your question, it is in your better interest to go to a DO school and STAY IN THE US. In hindsight I am glad that I never went to a DO school. I will be a university trained cardiologist and will have realized my dream. Pts see that I am an MD and never ask where I went to school, as a DO I would probably be sick of explaining the degree. DO training programs are better and are in the US, for me I wouldn't go, but as for most other people, the choice should be DO. Good luck
 
Here is a guy doing his PM&R residency at Harvard.

If you look closely Richard Mazzaferro, MD graduated from the University of New England College of Osteopathic Medicine! I guess they didn't even know (or care) that he was a DO.


http://www.hmcnet.harvard.edu/pmr/resident.html


Richard Mazzaferro, MD graduated from the University of New England College of Osteopathic Medicine in May 1998. Richard earned a BA degree in History, Certificate of Business Studies, from Providence College in June 1987. He completed his Postbaccalaureate Premedical Program at Harvard University in May 1994. Richard was commissioned a 2nd Lieutenant in the United States Army in 1994. He was involved in numerous extracurricular activities including the Sports Medicine Club, serving as President 1995-1996. Richard was also a teaching assistant, and a research assistant helping to create a user friendly, computer based Histology Glossary. He completed his transitional year at the Tripler Army Medical Center in Hawaii
 
There is only one reason why you should consider going to a foreign medical school and that is for the 2 initials behind your name.

Aside from that, there is no reason you should choose any foreign medical school over a DO school. Here is why

1. DO's have their own residency programs- You can even become a dermatologist by attending a dermatology DO residency. MD's are prohibited from applying to DO residencies so you only compete with other DO's. DO students can apply to both allopathic and osteopathic residencies.

2. You get to live in the U.S. Don't believe the hype that Grenada or St. Maarten are paradise. It is a miserable experience living on those islands. It's one thing to visit them during Spring Break. It's another thing to live there all year round and miss basic U.S. comforts like fast food, movie theatres, no threats of power outages, no hurricane threats etc.

3. St. George and other foreign schools are weeders!- They usually have the worst professors. In addition, there is cutthroat competition there when compared to U.S. schools. Think about it. Everyone who goes there has something to prove because they couldn't get into a U.S. school. There is a lot backstabbing going on there. DO schools have backstabbing too, but to a lesser degree. Many students choose going DO over MD so you have a lot of nice and laid back hippie granolas.

4. You don't have to take the TOEFFL

5. You won't have as big of hassle in setting up your rotations like you will when you attend St. George.

6. Foreign degrees are seen as being less prestigious than even DO's. You will have a harder time acquiring a surgical residency as a foreign student as opposed to being a DO student.

If you can tolerate the hassle and miserable experience of doing the foreign route then go to St. George. Because when you are 40, you will be an MD. But prior to that, you will have to endure an amazing amount of bureacracy that will make your stomach sick.

Lastly, think about this. The only opinions that matter are thse of your patients. It doesn't matter what other MD physicians think of you. They aren't going to be paying your bills. Your patients will. And by and large, most patients don't care if you are an MD or DO. Since 90% of your business will be through referrals, they are only going to know you by "Dr." that's it.

Go DO
 
Did you ever attend SGU? Sorry, no cutthroat competition. Majority of the professors are decent.
 
Originally posted by mcataz

4. You don't have to take the TOEFFL

American citizens who go offshore for school don't have to take the TOEFL (Test of English as a Foreign Language). That is only required of foreigners coming to the US to go to school or attend a residency. (Although, I had a British friend who was made to take the TOEFL). If an American citizen who has been speaking English all their life was required to take this test, I would think that some bureaucrat fell asleep at the wheel.
 
4. You don't have to take the TOEFFL

I think he probably meant the clinical skills exam, which is required for all offshore grads to come to the mainland before they start residency. Although, in 2-3 years all domestic grads will be required to take the CSE anyway for graduation, albeit with slightly different demands and ramifications if you fail.

Pure Rubbish.
 
I have spoken with plenty of residency directors and it wasn't even a point of debate. Every one of them said they would take a U.S. grad including DO's over a foreign grad anyday. St. George may be tougher to get into than Ross and AUC but it's still signficantly easier to get into than a DO school.

And St. George is a Carrib school regarldess if you call it the Harvard of the Carribean or some other nonsense. St. George students seem to think that their school is seen signficantly above the likes of Ross and AUC and it isn't.

You should also be warned that if you want to practice and settle out west, don't even consider the St. George or any other Carib schools. Those schools have tight connections to New York but outside of the East Coast and Michicag, those schools mean very little.
 
The idea that patients scoff at the DO degree is also a myth that is poorly thought out. Having close college friends practicing as DO's and doing quite well only confirms this idea.

Yes, if the layman goes to the yellow pages and looks up physicians and finds DO, then sure, he will probably be like: "What the f$# is a DO?"

The problem with this type of thinking is that physicians acquire most of their patients through referrals. Very rarely do you get patients who just drop by because they saw your name in the yellow pages. Therefore, if you are good, patients don't care what you are. They aren't going to second guess your qualifications if their friends have spoken so highly of you. They aren't going to say: "Oh, he is a DO, sorry I can't go to him despite all the great things you have said about him."

Honestly, the only people who frown upon DO's are MD's who were so paranoid about not becoming a DO. Trust me, I play golf with 4 practicing DO's and they are all doing quite well. Not one of them has experienced any significant bias. And a lot of MD's support DO's and realize the distinction between the two is almost non-existant.

But like I said, if you can handle all of the initial trouble and you really want the MD name, then do the Carib route. Because I agree that patients aren't going to care where you went to med school. Hell, if you can hack the Carib, just forgo college altogether and attend med school in India.
 
Whether or not you are an MD, DO, grad from Harvard, or grad from the Carribean means nothing.

Medical school is what you make of it. I know doctors who went to THE top notch US schools who I would never go to....and I know doctors who went to Carribean schools that you have to wait 1-2 months just to get in to see him, if it is not a dire emergency.

Do you really think patients are calling up to find the school they grad from? Also, many people who are aware of the MD/DO similarity don't go calling up to ask: "Now, is the doctor an MD or a DO?".

I can see the potential for always having to explain what DO means to those who don't know, but other than that, DO's and MD's are virtually the same! And with that, graduates from Carribean and those from US schools are the same: doctors.

One should choose a medical school because it is a "fit" for them personally. I know of several doctors who went to school in the Carribean who turned down US schools b/c it was not a fit for them. I mean, come on....if you are going to talk about schools like one is better than the other....why didn't YOU end up going to Harvard....b/c everyone "knows" it's the best? You can't just make outright assumptions on this. It comes down to the individual and what is right for them.

Whatever the reason a student chooses MD over DO or US med school over Carribean med school.....DOESN"T MATTER b/c you will both be peers practicing together in the future. Your title or your school doesn't dictate whether you will be a "good" doctor or a "bad" doctor. It is what YOU make of it: both in medical school and while practicing medicine. :p
 
"Many students choose going DO over MD so you have a lot of nice and laid back hippie granolas." :clap: :clap: That's part of why I wanted to go DO. When I've talked to DO students, it's more about cooperation and information sharing and becoming a DR. and less about competition. I just hope my laid back hippie granola classmates shave for OMM!

Oh, yeah. I just wanted to relay something that happened the other day. I was talking to a friend of mine who is a nurse. We were talking about a Dr. in her clinic. He is very widely known in the community and well respected by all his colleagues. I told her he had called me when he found out I was accepted to a DO school to say congrats and if I wanted to come shadow him or talk to him about DO topics as school gets closer. My nurse friend then said that was very cool because he was the best doc in the their clinic. Then she asked what the difference was in MD and DO. She said "so what is the difference between DOs and MDs? I know they're both doctors, but what the difference?"

IMHO, it doesn't matter what letters you have behind your name. A person could have all 26 and still not be respected as a physician if s/he isn't good at what s/he does. What the OP really has to decide is which route is best for him to become the physician he wants to be and run with it? Real success will come when you are treating your patients. That is the destination. The journey you take to that destination is really up to you.

Good luck in your journey!
Zippy
 
thought i'd add i don't think the US government will give you loan money towards a international med school. So you better be rich.

Go with the DO foreigners work for HMOs trust me i got a ****ty HMO and all the docs are from foreign med schools with weirdo names.
 
AUC, Ross, and St. George are all schools in the Caribbean which are fully accredited by the US Department of Education, which means students are eligible for US Federal loans.
 
Here's the advice I was given from some very trusted people that are excellent physicians:

1. If you truly want to be a physician, you will need a license to practice medicine - to obtain that, you need to get into a medical school, any medical school.

2. If you can get accepted into an MD school that has a "bad" reputation. GO. There will be *****s that will tell you about residency troubles and shooting for better schools even though they simply don't know what the hell they're saying.

3. If you can get accepted into a DO program, GO. There will be *****s that tell you about residency troubles even though they simply don't know what the hell they're saying. If you buy into the osteopathic philosophy, great. If not, it's no big deal - it's only as important as you want it to be because we know plenty DOs that are solid physicians but they they never use OMM or "think differently" than an MD. You'll be a fully licensed physician and you'll be great if you put in the effort. Again, DO=MD clinically, and that's all that really matters. You're not paid less or treated differently if you're a DO. If an MD, a DO, or a medical student at either type of school wants to judge you, that's his/her problem, not yours.

4. If you don't get into an American medical school but get in somewhere that you think will allow you to obtain your license in America (after investigating this carefully), GO. There will be *****s that know nothing about the option but will denigrate it anyway. They'll tell you the same garbage about residency troubles and such - ignore them if you think you can comfortably handle the situation. Try to find others in your position that have gone through it, and try to use them as models.

5. If you get accepted into a medical school, work very hard. If you are true to yourself and invest everything into being a good physician for that short time span, you will be an excellent physician. A patient might ask you something about your background maybe 2 or 3 times in your life, and they will usually not know the differences between medical schools anyway unless you drop a name like Harvard on them. A patronizing schmuck might look down at you because he went to a better medical school maybe 2 or 3 times in your life - this can be Penn to Penn State or MD to DO. At those moments, just walk away and smile because you are living your dream and you know that guy is a jerk trying to elevate his self-esteem.

6. Secure as many options as possible and evaluate each one carefully (definitely apply foreign if you think that you might not get into any U.S school - I didn't but I would have if my profile were a little lower). Get the acceptance letter and you will already know plenty about the school (from the interviews and such). Evaluate each option carefully. Harvard is the best medical school in the country, but it might not be the best choice for YOU (although it usually is if you get in).

7. Take pride in whatever you do.


http://www.studentdoctor.net/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=62445

If you want additional thoughts of mine about the subject, check out that thread. Don't just read or listen to one opinion and convince yourself. As the saying goes, opinions are like *, everyone has one. Carefully form yours, that's most important. E-mail [email protected] if you have any questions.
 
Ramses that was a great post. :clap: I think everyone should be required to read it. Maybe then we'd have a bit less of this pre-med hierarchy "I'm better than you are" attitude going around. :)


Midwestern University - CCOM
Class of 2007
 
:laugh: That's funny, because more than half of his post was based on the perceived "hierarchy" among pre-meds. You know, the whole MD>DO>FMG thing.

I like #5 - 7 though.
 
People should go where they're happy, if you hate the place, don't go cause you won't do well...plus this MD/DO/FMG thing is silly, if everyone was a genius, they'd all be MD's and the world would be boring, if everyone was a DO we'd still be bored, if everyone was a FMG, we'd all be working hard and spending time in nice tropical weather, but after we'd all be boring cause we all have the same experience...but in reality we have a diversity in the medical field that's unique. I'll learn one philosophy and work with another person trained in a school whose philosophies are slightly different...in the end it works out for everyone especially the patients since 3 points of view are better than 1, we aren't bored cause we'd learn from each other, unless the guy/gal was ignorant and all they said was "I'm better than you", which in that case I wouldn't care cause why would I concern myself with someone who is like that who wastes their life complaining about other people just to make themselves feel better; they are the people who constantly compare everything they own. Also, in getting a residency...don't worry, you'll get one if you work hard enough...it might not be what you like at first, but things always have a funny way of working out...
 
Jgar26,

I'm just curious what about the osteopathic philosophy turns you off? The whole person approach to care? The emphasis on primary care medicine? Or, the added skills and training in musculoskeletal medicine and manipulation. It's unclear to me why you would consider any of these things a minus. Also, the statistic on OMM use always gets misinterpreted: It's not that 90% of DO's do not use manipulation at all, it's that 90% of DO's do not use OMM on all patients. However, plenty of DO's use manipulation on selected patients. It's just another modality. Not all physicians use all the tools in their bags. When do you think was the last time a radiologist did a pelvic exam?


Conditions and diagnoses for which osteopathic primary care physicians and specialists use osteopathic manipulative treatment.

Johnson SM, Kurtz ME.

Department of Family and Community Medicine at the Michigan State University College of Osteopathic Medicine in East Lansing, USA.

Data presented in this study were gathered in 1998 through a national mail survey of 3000 randomly selected osteopathic physicians. Of 979 (33.4%) questionnaires returned, 955 (97.5%) were usable for analysis. The use of osteopathic manipulative treatment (OMT) was determined for primary care physicians and specialists. Osteopathic manipulative treatment specialists and family physicians provided OMT significantly more frequently than other primary care physicians and non-primary care specialists. More than 50% of respondents (513) administered OMT on less than 5% of their patients. Nevertheless, it should be noted that physicians from 40 of 46 specialties and subspecialties represented in the survey (678, 71%) identified an average of 3.3 conditions and diagnoses per physician that were managed with OMT. The conditions and diagnoses for which OMT is used have been enumerated and codified. More than 50% of conditions (1135) for which respondents treated patients with OMT related to the musculoskeletal system, but extensive overlap among other body systems and body regions attests to the continued incorporation of OMT into holistic patient care by a broad range of osteopathic physicians.
Evaluation of osteopathic manipulative treatment training by practicing physicians in Ohio.

Spaeth DG, Pheley AM.

Ohio University College of Osteopathic Medicine, Department of Family Practice, Athens 45701, USA. [email protected]

The authors mailed a survey designed to evaluate beliefs about osteopathic manipulative treatment (OMT) training to the 2318 osteopathic physicians registered with the Ohio Osteopathic Association. Responses were received from 871 osteopathic physicians (response rate, 38%). Fifty-three percent of the respondents had used OMT with patients at least once during the week before the survey. With regard to OMT training, 60% rated their experience during medical school as acceptable; during postgraduate training the acceptable rating dropped to 9%. Osteopathic manipulative treatment training through continuing medical education programs was rated as acceptable by 26% who had participated in these programs. Forty percent of the respondents reported that they were practicing less OMT now than when they originally entered practice, while 20% reported using OMT procedures more often. No significant correlation was observed between OMT training satisfaction during medical school and current use of OMT. However, a strong negative correlation was observed between satisfaction with postgraduate OMT training and OMT use. This survey did not detect any association between year of graduation and use of OMT.


Perceptions of philosophic and practice differences between US osteopathic physicians and their allopathic counterparts.

Johnson SM, Kurtz ME.

Department of Family and Community Medicine, Michigan State University College of Osteopathic Medicine, Michigan State University, East Lansing, MI 48824-1316, USA. [email protected]

Data were gathered through a random national mail survey of 3000 US osteopathic physicians. Nine hundred and fifty-five questionnaires were usable for analysis. Through open-ended questions, osteopathic physicians identified philosophic and practice differences that distinguished them from their allopathic counterparts, and whether they believed the use of osteopathic manipulative treatment (OMT), a key identifiable feature of the osteopathic profession, was appropriate in their specialty. Seventy-five percent of the respondents to the question regarding philosophic differences answered positively, and 41 percent of the follow-up responses indicated that holistic medicine was the most distinguishing characteristic of their profession. In response to the question on practice differences, 59 percent of the respondents believed they practiced differently from allopathic physicians, and 72 percent of the follow-up responses indicated that the osteopathic approach to treatment was a primary distinguishing feature, mainly incorporating the application of OMT, a caring doctor-patient relationship, and a hands-on style. More respondents who specialized in osteopathic manipulative medicine and family practice perceived differences between them and their allopathic counterparts than did other practitioners. Almost all respondents believed OMT was an efficacious treatment, but 19 percent of all respondents felt use of OMT was inappropriate in their specialty. Thirty-one percent of the pediatricians and 38 percent of the non-primary care specialists shared this view. Eighty-eight percent of the respondents had a self-identification as osteopathic physicians, but less than half felt their patients identified them as such. When responses are considered in the context of all survey respondents (versus only those who provided open-ended responses) not a single philosophic concept or resultant practice behavior had concurrence from more than a third of the respondents as distinguishing osteopathic from allopathic medicine. Rank and file osteopathic practitioners seem to be struggling for a legitimate professional identification. The outcome of this struggle is bound to have an impact on health care delivery in the US.

Characteristics, satisfaction, and perceptions of patients receiving ambulatory healthcare from osteopathic physicians: a comparative national survey.

Licciardone JC, Herron KM.

Department of Family Medicine, Texas College of Osteopathic Medicine, University of North Texas Health Science Center at Fort Worth, 3500 Camp Bowie Boulevard, Fort Worth, TX 76107, USA. [email protected]

A national telephone survey was conducted in 1998 using random-digit dialing and the first Osteopathic Survey of Healthcare in America (OSTEOSURV-I) instrument to determine patients' satisfaction with their healthcare, as well as their perceptions of osteopathic medicine. Of the 1106 respondents, 243 (22.0%) had received medical care from an osteopathic physician, and another 307 (27.8%) claimed to be aware of osteopathic physicians. Patients of osteopathic physicians reported the highest levels of satisfaction in 8 of the 11 elements studied when compared with patients of allopathic physicians, chiropractors, and nonphysician clinicians other than chiropractors. Respondents perceived osteopathic manipulative treatment (OMT) to be beneficial for musculoskeletal disorders (P < .001). In addition, respondents perceived that healthcare services provided by osteopathic physicians were similar to those provided by allopathic physicians (P < .001), but not to those provided by chiropractors (P = .01). A total of 97.9% of current patients of osteopathic physicians agreed with the statement that osteopathic physicians practiced in their local community, compared with 80.6% of former patients of osteopathic physicians and 67.8% of patients who had never visited osteopathic physicians (P < .001). In general, the most favorable perceptions of osteopathic medicine were reported by current patients of osteopathic physicians, followed by former patients of such physicians. The least favorable perceptions came from patients who had never been patients of osteopathic physicians. The perception that OMT should be covered by health insurance was significantly associated with the use of osteopathic physicians (odds ratio, 3.2; 95% confidence interval, 1.5 to 6.7, among patients who had ever been to an osteopathic physician). The results of our survey suggest that greater access to osteopathic services, including OMT, is desirable and that promotional efforts aimed at encouraging the use of osteopathic medical services among the general population are warranted.


Originally posted by jgar26
Be aware that 99.9% of DO grads will NEVER practice that. In my residency, every DO I know doesnt pracitce it.
 
Originally posted by drusso
Jgar26,

I'm just curious what about the osteopathic philosophy turns you off? The whole person approach to care? The emphasis on primary care medicine? Or, the added skills and training in musculoskeletal medicine and manipulation. It's unclear to me why you would consider any of these things a minus. Also, the statistic on OMM use always gets misinterpreted: It's not that 90% of DO's do not use manipulation at all, it's that 90% of DO's do not use OMM on all patients. However, plenty of DO's use manipulation on selected patients. It's just another modality. Not all physicians use all the tools in their bags. When do you think was the last time a radiologist did a pelvic exam?


Conditions and diagnoses for which osteopathic primary care physicians and specialists use osteopathic manipulative treatment.

Johnson SM, Kurtz ME.

Department of Family and Community Medicine at the Michigan State University College of Osteopathic Medicine in East Lansing, USA.

Data presented in this study were gathered in 1998 through a national mail survey of 3000 randomly selected osteopathic physicians. Of 979 (33.4%) questionnaires returned, 955 (97.5%) were usable for analysis. The use of osteopathic manipulative treatment (OMT) was determined for primary care physicians and specialists. Osteopathic manipulative treatment specialists and family physicians provided OMT significantly more frequently than other primary care physicians and non-primary care specialists. More than 50% of respondents (513) administered OMT on less than 5% of their patients. Nevertheless, it should be noted that physicians from 40 of 46 specialties and subspecialties represented in the survey (678, 71%) identified an average of 3.3 conditions and diagnoses per physician that were managed with OMT. The conditions and diagnoses for which OMT is used have been enumerated and codified. More than 50% of conditions (1135) for which respondents treated patients with OMT related to the musculoskeletal system, but extensive overlap among other body systems and body regions attests to the continued incorporation of OMT into holistic patient care by a broad range of osteopathic physicians.
Evaluation of osteopathic manipulative treatment training by practicing physicians in Ohio.

Spaeth DG, Pheley AM.

Ohio University College of Osteopathic Medicine, Department of Family Practice, Athens 45701, USA. [email protected]

The authors mailed a survey designed to evaluate beliefs about osteopathic manipulative treatment (OMT) training to the 2318 osteopathic physicians registered with the Ohio Osteopathic Association. Responses were received from 871 osteopathic physicians (response rate, 38%). Fifty-three percent of the respondents had used OMT with patients at least once during the week before the survey. With regard to OMT training, 60% rated their experience during medical school as acceptable; during postgraduate training the acceptable rating dropped to 9%. Osteopathic manipulative treatment training through continuing medical education programs was rated as acceptable by 26% who had participated in these programs. Forty percent of the respondents reported that they were practicing less OMT now than when they originally entered practice, while 20% reported using OMT procedures more often. No significant correlation was observed between OMT training satisfaction during medical school and current use of OMT. However, a strong negative correlation was observed between satisfaction with postgraduate OMT training and OMT use. This survey did not detect any association between year of graduation and use of OMT.


Perceptions of philosophic and practice differences between US osteopathic physicians and their allopathic counterparts.

Johnson SM, Kurtz ME.

Department of Family and Community Medicine, Michigan State University College of Osteopathic Medicine, Michigan State University, East Lansing, MI 48824-1316, USA. [email protected]

Data were gathered through a random national mail survey of 3000 US osteopathic physicians. Nine hundred and fifty-five questionnaires were usable for analysis. Through open-ended questions, osteopathic physicians identified philosophic and practice differences that distinguished them from their allopathic counterparts, and whether they believed the use of osteopathic manipulative treatment (OMT), a key identifiable feature of the osteopathic profession, was appropriate in their specialty. Seventy-five percent of the respondents to the question regarding philosophic differences answered positively, and 41 percent of the follow-up responses indicated that holistic medicine was the most distinguishing characteristic of their profession. In response to the question on practice differences, 59 percent of the respondents believed they practiced differently from allopathic physicians, and 72 percent of the follow-up responses indicated that the osteopathic approach to treatment was a primary distinguishing feature, mainly incorporating the application of OMT, a caring doctor-patient relationship, and a hands-on style. More respondents who specialized in osteopathic manipulative medicine and family practice perceived differences between them and their allopathic counterparts than did other practitioners. Almost all respondents believed OMT was an efficacious treatment, but 19 percent of all respondents felt use of OMT was inappropriate in their specialty. Thirty-one percent of the pediatricians and 38 percent of the non-primary care specialists shared this view. Eighty-eight percent of the respondents had a self-identification as osteopathic physicians, but less than half felt their patients identified them as such. When responses are considered in the context of all survey respondents (versus only those who provided open-ended responses) not a single philosophic concept or resultant practice behavior had concurrence from more than a third of the respondents as distinguishing osteopathic from allopathic medicine. Rank and file osteopathic practitioners seem to be struggling for a legitimate professional identification. The outcome of this struggle is bound to have an impact on health care delivery in the US.

Characteristics, satisfaction, and perceptions of patients receiving ambulatory healthcare from osteopathic physicians: a comparative national survey.

Licciardone JC, Herron KM.

Department of Family Medicine, Texas College of Osteopathic Medicine, University of North Texas Health Science Center at Fort Worth, 3500 Camp Bowie Boulevard, Fort Worth, TX 76107, USA. [email protected]

A national telephone survey was conducted in 1998 using random-digit dialing and the first Osteopathic Survey of Healthcare in America (OSTEOSURV-I) instrument to determine patients' satisfaction with their healthcare, as well as their perceptions of osteopathic medicine. Of the 1106 respondents, 243 (22.0%) had received medical care from an osteopathic physician, and another 307 (27.8%) claimed to be aware of osteopathic physicians. Patients of osteopathic physicians reported the highest levels of satisfaction in 8 of the 11 elements studied when compared with patients of allopathic physicians, chiropractors, and nonphysician clinicians other than chiropractors. Respondents perceived osteopathic manipulative treatment (OMT) to be beneficial for musculoskeletal disorders (P < .001). In addition, respondents perceived that healthcare services provided by osteopathic physicians were similar to those provided by allopathic physicians (P < .001), but not to those provided by chiropractors (P = .01). A total of 97.9% of current patients of osteopathic physicians agreed with the statement that osteopathic physicians practiced in their local community, compared with 80.6% of former patients of osteopathic physicians and 67.8% of patients who had never visited osteopathic physicians (P < .001). In general, the most favorable perceptions of osteopathic medicine were reported by current patients of osteopathic physicians, followed by former patients of such physicians. The least favorable perceptions came from patients who had never been patients of osteopathic physicians. The perception that OMT should be covered by health insurance was significantly associated with the use of osteopathic physicians (odds ratio, 3.2; 95% confidence interval, 1.5 to 6.7, among patients who had ever been to an osteopathic physician). The results of our survey suggest that greater access to osteopathic services, including OMT, is desirable and that promotional efforts aimed at encouraging the use of osteopathic medical services among the general population are warranted.

I can't argue with your evidence because I've never researched it. But every D.O. I know of in private practice (~45 in a variety of specialties but mainly family medicine) NEVER uses OMT. Not even one time. Obviously this is a small sample, but I think the vast majority of D.O.s never use OMT.

That's why the AOA is starting to push medical schools to require more training in the third and fourth years.
:(
 
what ups, i'm finishing up my first year as a DO student. and to be honest, i initially did use it as a fall back...there, i said it. but you know what?? i'm ashamed of that now. i have so far received such a terrific medical education, and believe that in the future, maybe even near future, the practice of medicine as a whole is going to take on the osteopathic philosophy in some shape or form. let me give you just one example as to why i think that:
a month of two ago one of our OMM professioners (a DO who faithfully practices OMM) gave us a case study: a man had surgery for a "herinated disk" a few years ago, but the pain just never completely went away. He had to get up for work two hours early to stretch out his back and it got to the point where he was in extreme pain. He came to my professors office where he was evaluted. My professor performed some OMM on the man and instantly his pain was gone. He had to come back a few times after that to keep his back adjusted but no surgery was needed....and is wasn't needed in the first place. When our professor told us that we could have diagnosed this man from just what he have learned in just our first year of medical school, our classroom was silent (He also told us that the patient, after being adjusted, looked at our professor and asked him if he knew of any good malpractice)

although it very well could have been a DO who performed the surgery, the point of my little story is that i'm so thankful that i'm learning all the tools i need to make a correct diagnosis of patients in the future. no matter what field i enter, i know i will use OMM. DON'T be ashamed of the DO initials. i honestly know a bunch of students in my school who denied an allopathic acceptance to attend our little DO school. and DO's are totally intergraded into the medical profession, in my opinion its really premeds who make the DO/MD issue such a big deal.

Good luck to all.....
 
Originally posted by applying
although it very well could have been a DO who performed the surgery, the point of my little story is that i'm so thankful that i'm learning all the tools i need to make a correct diagnosis of patients in the future. no matter what field i enter, i know i will use OMM. DON'T be ashamed of the DO initials. i honestly know a bunch of students in my school who denied an allopathic acceptance to attend our little DO school. and DO's are totally intergraded into the medical profession, in my opinion its really premeds who make the DO/MD issue such a big deal.

Good luck to all.....

I must say, I like your comments---very rational :)
 
Top