do psychiatrists have mental illness

[kazza27]

i know of this psychiatrist,shes not my psychiatrist,i dont have a psychiatrist.as i am perfect ( lol i am such a narcasstic).well the other day i was in a queue at a bank machine and i realised the person infront of me had left her bank card in the machine,i turned around to the psychiarist stood behind me and was about to joke about people being absent minded when she screamed right in my face and said what the **** do you want me to do about it
i was totally shocked and thought does she speak to her patients like that

i spoke about it to a friend who is a psychiatric nurse and he said most psychiatrists have mental illness themselfs and only become psychiatrist to better learn about themselves

i did find out that that psychiatrist that screamed at me,suffers from bipolar

---

Members don't see this ad.

 

[loveoforganic]

This seems like a troll. At any rate, some do, some don't. If I had to guess, the incidence is probably higher than in most other medical fields, but lower than general rate in the population.

 

[kazza27]

This seems like a troll. At any rate, some do, some don't. If I had to guess, the incidence is probably higher than in most other medical fields, but lower than general rate in the population.

well she could well of been a troll but she was definatly human

 

[loveoforganic]

 

[GH253]

I've never met a psychiatrist who was on the right side of the bars; have often wondered whether it's cause or effect: does the study of psychiatry attract lunatics or produce them?

 

[loveoforganic]

This is going places

 

[HMSPSYCH]

I've never met a psychiatrist who was on the right side of the bars; have often wondered whether it's cause or effect: does the study of psychiatry attract lunatics or produce them?

Your perception of psychiatric patients also likely influences your opinion about psychiatrists. Just as not all lawyers are greedy criminals and not all surgeons are jerks our threshold to portray these individuals as such are lower and they are likely perceive as so. I’ve encountered plenty of gastroenterologists, internists, dermatologists, cardiologists, orthopods, etc who are rather odd ducks themselves.

 

[peppy]

I don't think "most" psychiatrists are mentally ill. However, I do think that careers in the mental health field (including fields like social work, psychology, and yes psychiatric nursing ) tend to be attractive to people with a history of mental illness for various reasons.

After all, it's not at all uncommon for someone's interest in a career to be inspired by a personal experience with that field. A dermatology appplicant could say they were inspired to go into the field because of a personal experience with severe acne and people would think that was a good reason to be interested in the field, so why should we be surprised if someone wants to be a psychiatrist because of a personal experience with being helped by a mental health professional? (In some cases, I do think that people with mental illness may be better off pursuing a different career - especially since sometimes it is hard to help someone else if you identify too strongly with them and have not sorted out your own problems first - but the motivation for being interested is understandable).
Mentally ill people might also become interested because of the expectation that the mental health field will be less judgmental about their mental health issues and they can be open about their problems.

There are other good reasons for wanting to be involved in mental health besides having an illness personally. You could look at how that bipolar psychiatrist ruined your day and say that it was your inspiration for wanting to help people like her.

 

[sunlioness]

(In some cases, I do think that people with mental illness may be better off pursuing a different career - especially since sometimes it is hard to help someone else if you identify too strongly with them and have not sorted out your own problems first - but the motivation for being interested is understandable).

I think what I bolded in the quote above is the key point. I don't necessarily see a problem with people being drawn to the field because of personal experience (and many, if not most, people I know are) but you need to have your own "stuff" either mostly resolved (in the case of something like PTSD, a dissociative disorder, addiction or a personality disorder) or at least stable on meds/therapy (for things like bipolar) before you can help others through theirs.

 

[kazza27]

I think what I bolded in the quote above is the key point. I don't necessarily see a problem with people being drawn to the field because of personal experience (and many, if not most, people I know are) but you need to have your own "stuff" either mostly resolved (in the case of something like PTSD, a dissociative disorder, addiction or a personality disorder) or at least stable on meds/therapy (for things like bipolar) before you can help others through theirs.

that is true,the last thing any patient needs is to be in a session with a psychiatrist and the psychiatrist to go mental on them,if you excuse the pun

 

[kugel]

My experience (most of it before going to Med School and residency) is that most psychiatrists are fairly open about their quirks. Which may make them seem more quirky, but there's a big difference between that and mental illness. I've always found psychiatrists to be fairly cognizant of their own oddities (no more severe than the rest of the pop'n) and able to discuss them and joke about them. Currently, we joke about each other's personality traits and even, at times, use them for "consultation" to each other, to gain perspective on a patient's traits, gain perspective on our own reactions to patients, etc.

This is an Advantage compared to other fields of medicine. You don't often find Internists able to effectively utilize their own reaction to PCP pneumonia to help a patient or colleague...
Or a surgeon able to describe his own unusual anatomy of his internal femoral artery to help a colleague deal with the same thing in a patient.

 

[whopper]

I do think that careers in the mental health field (including fields like social work, psychology, and yes psychiatric nursing ) tend to be attractive to people with a history of mental illness for various reasons.

I strongly agree, in fact most people I know went into their chosen medical field due to a strong personal interest. For several of them, that interest was because they suffered from an illness or someone they loved did.

I used to have a rule of 3rds when it came to psychiatry applicants. 1/3 want this field because they're "lazy", the other 3rd because they're "crazy" and the other 3rd because they have an interest in treating mental illness that has nothing to do with the "crazy."

Before anyone labels me as ignorant, let's all admit we had racy pneumonics. When we memorized the cranial nerves we all used the "oh oh oh to touch and feel a virgin girl's...." I of course don't believe that medical students are lazy (well actually some of them are) or want to disrespectfully refer to people with a mental illness as crazy. It was a pneumonic meaning that 1/3 want psychiatry for the lifestyle where you don't have to be woken at 3 am every single day for the rest of your life, the other 3rd meaning the person has a mental issue, That impassioned the person to want to go into the field to help them better understand their own situation, but it also may have motivated to help others with a similar problem. The last 3rd, well there's some people who just really get their kicks from mental illness situations. E.g. they may have read a book like Silence of the Lambs and just became enthralled with mental illness.

 

[billypilgrim37]

I would revise your rule of thirds:

One-third are Cluster A.
One-third are Cluster B.
One-third are Cluster C.

This is actually a better balance, compared to say pathology (predominantly cluster A), surgery (predominantly Cluster B), and medicine (predominantly cluster C).

As I would probably choose Tweek from South Park as my avatar if I could be troubled to upload an avatar, I think I'm a proud waver of the Cluster C flag.

 

[OldPsychDoc]

I would revise your rule of thirds:

One-third are Cluster A.
One-third are Cluster B.
One-third are Cluster C.

This is actually a better balance, compared to say pathology (predominantly cluster A), surgery (predominantly Cluster B), and medicine (predominantly cluster C).

As I would probably choose Tweek from South Park as my avatar if I could be troubled to upload an avatar, I think I'm a proud waver of the Cluster C flag.

We're ALL Cluster C's here in my group. So I don't know where the A's are (and don't want to know where the B's are!)

And whopper--I'm sorry, but IT'S MNEMONIC, DANGGIT!!!!!!
(...feeling better now...)

 

[antonis]

i want to tell you about a personal experience that i had when i was a training psychiatrist in a mental health hospital in Greece. not because this unic experience can induce to the truth, but because it was so striking for me that i will never forget.
one of my first patients was a psychotic woman that she was very verbaly agressive to me and to the therapy and with everything around her. every time we had to talk she was telling to me, "my ex doctor mrs x the director of the previous clinic i was , she is completely crazy".
well it was a projective defence , but two months later mrs x commited a suicide and after i went to know that she had serious problems with alcohol.
it was such a double message for me that it took me days to realise that psychiatrists are also human and they can have also serious problems like everyone can have. it can happen, but its not the exeption that makes the rule.

 

[whopper]

but IT'S MNEMONIC, DANGGIT!!!!!!

You are right.

While I was Chief, I was on the lookout for the 1st 3rd--> the lazy. I didn't want people to go into psychiatry just for the lifestyle. Yes, I do like that I don't have to be woken up at 3am, but that should at best be a secondary reason to go into this field. No problem with someone wanting a full night of sleep so long as while they're awake, they actually do their job well.

it was such a double message for me that it took me days to realise that psychiatrists are also human and they can have also serious problems like everyone can have. it can happen, but its not the exeption that makes the rule.

When I'm sleep deprived, I lose my ability to empathize with patients. Literally it gives me a headache. When I'm fully awake I do not have this problem. I tend to see the process of empathizing when I'm fully awake as an honor and a needed thing I have to take seriously. Today, I had a situation where an MR person was being exploited in his group home by his caregivers, out of his own efforts to get out of the situation he got a private care giver who's doing a great job. He even got the MRDD (called DDD in some states) to investigate his previous group home. This was one of the best and heroic triumphs I've seen one of my patients do on his own that has a disorder where his cognition or IQ is compromised.

And I'm trying to empathize with him while he was explaining the grieving process of getting past that battle that took him several months--and I'm getting that empathy headache I get when I'm sleep deprived. I was very upset with myself for not doing a better job.

 

[jettavr6]

Your perception of psychiatric patients also likely influences your opinion about psychiatrists. Just as not all lawyers are greedy criminals and not all surgeons are jerks our threshold to portray these individuals as such are lower and they are likely perceive as so. I’ve encountered plenty of gastroenterologists, internists, dermatologists, cardiologists, orthopods, etc who are rather odd ducks themselves.

This is spot on... And i'd even go as far as to say that the incidence of depression/anxiety/personality disorders are either just as common or more so in other specialties. I've seen many odd ducks amongst the internists... A couple of the cardiologists are memorable for being some of the most strange people that I've ever seen in the field of medicine.

 

[RGMSU]

Some are bizarre, some aren't, just like in any other field. She was probably screaming at you because she just spent 30 minutes signing a bunch of insurance forms or something. I think medical school in general attracts some odd folks. Who else is going to spend 12+ years doing nothing but sitting in a study room?

 

[whopper]

I think medical school in general attracts some odd folks.

Or it makes you odd.

One of the head psychologists at a place I work at smiled, and seemed lively. I could tell he wasn't an M.D., but didn't know he was a psychologist when I first met him. So when everyone called him "doctor" I thought to myself--"this guy can't be a doctor. He spontaneously smiles on his own and is very lively."

I think years of pulling all nighters just somehow kills that in doctors. No I don't have a study on this, but I do have a lot of personal experience with hundreds of M.D.'s.

 

[RGMSU]

Or it makes you odd.

One of the head psychologists at a place I work at smiled, and seemed lively. I could tell he wasn't an M.D., but didn't know he was a psychologist when I first met him. So when everyone called him "doctor" I thought to myself--"this guy can't be a doctor. He spontaneously smiles on his own and is very lively."

I think years of pulling all nighters just somehow kills that in doctors. No I don't have a study on this, but I do have a lot of personal experience with hundreds of M.D.'s.

I think all the concentration on medical training breeds a bit of apathy about some other things.

 

[TX515]

well she could well of been a troll but she was definatly human

And are psychiatrists also human?

 

[OldPsychDoc]

I think all the concentration on medical training breeds a bit of apathy about some other things.

Which is sad...

Recently had a bipolar lady on the unit who in her disorganized way kept referencing 70s & 80s rock & roll. Only clothes she had at admission were leather pants and this shimmering glam top. Nevertheless, my being able to keep up with her references helped to establish some small level of trust, and got her to stay in as a voluntary patient until we could get the VPA to kick in.

Though we've proven over and over on this forum that we can get a thread to quickly decay into pop culture references when the moment suits us.

 

[nancysinatra]

We're ALL Cluster C's here in my group. So I don't know where the A's are (and don't want to know where the B's are!)

And whopper--I'm sorry, but IT'S MNEMONIC, DANGGIT!!!!!!
(...feeling better now...)

oooh, what are you worriers going to do when they revise the clusters in the new dsm? worry about that?! what if there ARE no clusters?

I think all the concentration on medical training breeds a bit of apathy about some other things.

Here is a philosophical question for everyone: think of a new cluster. I can think of one--the boring conservative person's cluster, well represented in the medical field, if I do say so myself. You now have the weird, the wild, the worried, and the wallflowers.

 

[Sneezing]

All people are weird. Normal is an imaginary line on the spectrum no one gets to claim the title of. Therefore, ball park it with a standard deviation (or two).

 

[sunlioness]

I think years of pulling all nighters just somehow kills that in doctors. No I don't have a study on this, but I do have a lot of personal experience with hundreds of M.D.'s.

I think something in me definitely died when I studied for Step 1. After that, I just couldn't really study for fun anymore. I mean, I do what I have to do, but researching something for the joy of it? It just doesn't happen. I also used to pleasure read a lot before medical school and I don't do that nearly so much anymore either. It's almost like I have to actively remind myself that I actually really do like reading.

 

[kugel]

Here is a philosophical question for everyone: think of a new cluster.

CLUSTER D- Arrogant:
Always think they have the most important thing to say on any subject under discussion

Type 1: Angry
Always upset and personally offended that no one else seems to know what seems so obvious to him

Type 2: Antithetical
Persistently states that the opposite of the thesis at hand is obviously actually true

Type 3: Arcane
Always believes that an insignificant, oft-forgotten detail, which he has at his fingertips, is the key to solving a complicated and difficult problem

Type 4: Arbitrary
Persistently tosses off a quickly devised and ill-conceived perfunctory answer with clear expectation that such will suffice to solve the question/subject being discussed



CLUSTER E- Alliterative

 

[pingouin]

CLUSTER D- Arrogant:
Always think they have the most important thing to say on any subject under discussion

Type 1: Angry
Always upset and personally offended that no one else seems to know what seems so obvious to him

Type 2: Antithetical
Persistently states that the opposite of the thesis at hand is obviously actually true

Type 3: Arcane
Always believes that an insignificant, oft-forgotten detail, which he has at his fingertips, is the key to solving a complicated and difficult problem

Type 4: Arbitrary
Persistently tosses off a quickly devised and ill-conceived perfunctory answer with clear expectation that such will suffice to solve the question/subject being discussed

I think you just created diagnostic categories that encompass a significant chunk of SDN membership (and other internet boards of course...).

 

[RGMSU]

I think something in me definitely died when I studied for Step 1. After that, I just couldn't really study for fun anymore. I mean, I do what I have to do, but researching something for the joy of it? It just doesn't happen. I also used to pleasure read a lot before medical school and I don't do that nearly so much anymore either. It's almost like I have to actively remind myself that I actually really do like reading.

Something in me died the first month of medical school. Basically, everything but medical school.

 

[whopper]

I think something in me definitely died when I studied for Step 1

Same here.

Let's see now--I had 2 failed relationships where both of us thought we would be married and ended as a direct result of the work I was doing in medschool, lost contact with most of my college buddies, thought 3/4 of the class were mercenary oddballs who had no life, and would be worse doctors for that, had to deal with several overbearing attendings who thought that demeaning residents and medstudents made them better doctors, pulled an all nighter perhaps 500 times over the course of medschool and residency, having professors test us on things that were not relevant, and because of that you had to memorize everything even though there already was too much to memorize......

All the while my college buddies were going on vacations to the Carribean, France, having a life, wine & cheese parties on weekends, working 40 hrs a week, dating, reading for fun, etc....

Part of the way I had to mentally cope with it was to make myself neutral to things in life which are enjoyable. Its dehumanizing, but its reality.

 

[OldPsychDoc]

Same here.

Let's see now--I had 2 failed relationships where both of us thought we would be married, lost contact with most of my college buddies, thought 3/4 of the class were mercenary oddballs who had no life, and would be worse doctors for that, had to deal with several overbearing attendings who thought that demeaning residents and medstudents made them better doctors, pulled an all nighter perhaps 500 times over the course of medschool and residency, having professors test us on things that were not relevant, and because of that you had to memorize everything even though there already was too much to memorize......

All the while my college buddies were going on vacations to the Carribean, France, having a life, wine & cheese parties on weekends, working 40 hrs a week, dating, reading for fun, etc....

Part of the way I had to mentally cope with it was to make myself neutral to things in life which are enjoyable. Its dehumanizing, but its reality.

But you know, it's not NECESSARY! Reading this, I'm asking myself "Did I actually GO to medical school?"--because seriously, I was able to stay married, have 2 kids when starting med school (adding another in residency and another at the end of fellowship), keep up with college friends, go to my kids' school activities, be a member of the community, etc. all the way through the process. I was either a really bad student, or I was too smart to need to study (and my test scores don't exactly show the latter ).

Where does this expectation come from that we need to dehumanize to succeed?

 

[notdeadyet]

I had 2 failed relationships where both of us thought we would be married and ended as a direct result of the work I was doing in medschool, lost contact with most of my college buddies...

Part of the way I had to mentally cope with it was to make myself neutral to things in life which are enjoyable. Its dehumanizing, but its reality.

But all of that was a choice, right?

I find that those most miserable in med school and find it the most dehumanizing are the ones who put med school up on a pedestal and make it the end-all/be-all.

At the end of the day, med school's a job. How you prioritize your job in regards to your kids, your wife, your girlfriend, your hobbies, your buddies, is largely left up to you. Growing up, I knew lots of dads that sacrificed their relationship with their wives and children for the sake of their jobs. That's how they prioritized.

Sometimes you take the hit on a test to take your wife out to dinner. Sometimes you bomb a lab to go to your kid's little league game. None of this will keep you from graduating, but it will keep you from betraying your values.

Med school is tough. Without a doubt. I came in late, out-of-shape, and with a poor background in science. I have to put ridiculous hours in to do all right. But I prioritize med school with relationships with my wife and my outside life. Anyone who is truly "dehumanized" by med school made a choice along the way and maybe they valued their job inappropriately high.

I'm very content with the happy marriage. They can have AOA.

 

[Doctor Bagel]

But you know, it's not NECESSARY! Reading this, I'm asking myself "Did I actually GO to medical school?"--because seriously, I was able to stay married, have 2 kids when starting med school (adding another in residency and another at the end of fellowship), keep up with college friends, go to my kids' school activities, be a member of the community, etc. all the way through the process. I was either a really bad student, or I was too smart to need to study (and my test scores don't exactly show the latter ).

Where does this expectation come from that we need to dehumanize to succeed?

Your experience matches mine more than whopper's. My marriage has had some strains, but that would have happened even without medical school. And I've generally managed to maintain an OK life during my 4 years here, and actually still do well academically. Medical school certainly has its moments that truly suck, but I had lots of those moments before medical school, too.

I also wonder if my reaction to medical school is different because I went to another professional school beforehand. I let the negatives of that experience get to me a little more than medical school. Maybe I learned better coping skills there, including how to tune out overly competitive jerks.

 

[notdeadyet]

I also wonder if my reaction to medical school is different because I went to another professional school beforehand. I let the negatives of that experience get to me a little more than medical school. Maybe I learned better coping skills there, including how to tune out overly competitive jerks.

I'd also be curious if being slightly older helped you with coping. I'm finding that those who find medical school the most challenging, unjust, and dehumanizing tend to be those who went to med school directly out of college or not long thereafter.

I also find that folks who came to med school after careers like engineering, law, etc. tend to find med school less of a grind. At the end of the day, if you've worked a 60-70 hour job for a few years, med school hours aren't as frightening.

 

[whopper]

Anyone who is truly "dehumanized" by med school made a choice along the way and maybe they valued their job inappropriately high.

Depends. Some of it is not choice. I brought this up in other threads, but while in college, some of my pre-med courses had average grades of less than a 50%. The professors, at least in my opinion in those cases were not really separating the wheat from the chaff, but taking the baby out with the bathwater.

Or the anatomy class, where the professor gave everyone Cs or lower due to his own grading philosophy.

I had a similar experience with medical school. I'm sure some schools teach in a more humane manner than others in this regard.

Yeah, I did know people who didn't study, and somehow managed to get by. I knew others who had to work all the time--every moment. I tried to have a life. Hey I actually was in 2 relationships. Most people I knew weren't in any in medschool.

As for rotations, about half were humane. The other half were situations where the attending or resident made comments to the effect of "I expect you to pull 2 all nighters in a row because that's how they did it when I was in medical school."

Was it a choice? Yes and no. You really don't know how difficult the process will be until you're already in massive debt. To say its a completely free choice, when the other option is to drop out of medschool, and lose the $100K you already invested in it, and the 4 years of pre-med, well that's not exactly a choice made without duress.

 

[notdeadyet]

Yeah, I did know people who didn't study, and somehow managed to get by. I knew others who had to work all the time--every moment.

Really? I've yet to meet a med student who truly worked "all the time." Lots of folks say this, yet strangely they're involved in student government, volunteering at the clinic, etc. If anyone feels that they HAVE to study every waking moment of every day with no free time, they probably either have a psych issue or study issue and should talk to someone about it. Every school has the person who literally won't stop studying, but it's rarely out of actual academic necessity.

Maybe it's school dependent. A school full of stress cases should be a big red flag when evaluating a med school choice. And if students find that the majority of their school literally has to study all hours of the day, they need to talk to school leadership, because their pedagogy sucks. The majority of med schools are not like this.

I tried to have a life. Hey I actually was in 2 relationships. Most people I knew weren't in any in medschool.

I know the type, too. It seems that folks who were the players, chronic daters, and lonely hearts before med school mostly seemed to carry on that trend in med school, just amplified. The married aren't excluded either: solid marriages get stronger and troubled marriages get rockier.

As for rotations, about half were humane. The other half were situations where the attending or resident made comments to the effect of "I expect you to pull 2 all nighters in a row because that's how they did it when I was in medical school."

Boy that seems to be a universal, doesn't it?

 

[notdeadyet]

Was it a choice? Yes and no. You really don't know how difficult the process will be until you're already in massive debt. To say its a completely free choice, when the other option is to drop out of medschool, and lose the $100K you already invested in it, and the 4 years of pre-med, well that's not exactly a choice made without duress.

Sorry, by choice I didn't mean staying/leaving med school, I meant how you prioritize med school with the rest of your life.

Med students often fall prey to the hype and believe that med school is some almighty calling, rather than just grad school. I've seen med students do things that I don't think they would have done for the sake of success in undergrad or a work environment and somehow justify it because, "Hey, I'm in med school." It's a form of entitlement and sets dangerous precedent.

Folks choose how to conduct their life. If they want to make med school the end-all/be-all (and many do), they pay the consequences in other areas of their life. If they want to make family first priority, their performance in med school will go down. That's the choice. I tend to take the hit in points for the sake of my family. Others tend to take the hit with their family for the sake of points. We choose.

Med school ain't war and it ain't the preisthood. It's grad school. But I realize folks sometimes see it differently...

 

[whopper]

Really? I've yet to meet a med student who truly worked "all the time."

True. All the time--taken literally means no sleep.

"All the time" the way I meant it was in the manner where the people didn't have any interests outside of medical school, and worked every day. Most people I knew only spent half a day not studying out of 7, and that time was spent doing that because you have to do things like clean up your dorm, pay your bills etc. About 10% of the class shaved their heads because they didn't have the time to get a haircut.

I think it could be school dependent. I took microbiology in a graduate school course which was 95% the same as the class the medstudents took (it was taught at a medical school). The same course in medschool was one of those killer courses where everyone hated the professor and thought he was unfair. Several people who had 4.0 GPAs up until that course got a B or C in it.

 

[notdeadyet]

About 10% of the class shaved their heads because they didn't have the time to get a haircut.

That is a warning sign that something ain't right at the school. My condolences...