DO OR SGU?

This forum made possible through the generous support of SDN members, donors, and sponsors. Thank you.
to leorl:

I was born in Asia where my dad remains a doctor there. I immigrated to Canada and then attended both college and med school in the US. And I studied aboard in UK during my junior year in college. As such, I do feel that I bring more perspectives than you and from your words, I feel that you do not understand health care in the US or abroad that well. Do you know why? Because you bring in numbers that are deceptive and you glamorize things here and there. Nothing is perfect. US health care is not perfect but neither is Canada's or UK's (or Autralia's or Ireland's). Medical education is actually very very good in the US compared to elsewhere (this should not even have been argued in the first place). Ultimately, let me just ask you one question. Do you want to practice in the US or not? IF yes, go DO or MD and forget about Irish, Australian, Indian, Israeli, etc. schools. That's the only opinion I have.

Oh, let me add more conditions to why go foreign. If you honestly believe that Autralian, British, Irish docs practice holistic medicine (that is not found in the US), do physical exams and don't rely on high tech (equipements are often lacking even in Canada or UK) and believe that it is best to train with people who decided to go into medicine at the tender age of 18 and who drink themselves to death in pubs, then please go foreign.
Members don't see this ad.
 
I must clarify again...Of the attendings I have spoken too at major midwestern universities, they have a bias against FMG's in their programs...especially in FP, IM, Psych,Anesth, and EM. They had spoken candidly with me saying " that programs now shy away from the FMG's more than ever and they are now more open to the DO candidates".

I can't say it is universally true, but I can tell you I have DO friends matching at allopathic residencies in General Surgery, IM, Psych, FP, Anesth, PM&R, and EM. Including myself...and during my interviews I must have seen 4x's as many DO interviewees than FMG's.
Perhaps coincidence.
But, I have also worked with some OUTSTANDING students from Ross...but they are severely limited because of the FMG stigma.
 
Okay, you have misinterpreted several things.

No, the British/Irish/Australian do not practice holistic medicine. My use of the word "holistic" was meant in the more general sense that having international experiences would broaden a narrow definition of what medicine is or what health care is, and approaches to practice. It wasn't meant as in "holistic medicine" which DO's practice. I believe that in order to best understand the US health care system and attempt to make it better, some doctors need and want to go abroad. What better way to realize how to improve the US system than to view it from the outside and view different systems? Nowhere did I say that US health care was shoddy. Nowhere did I say that other European/national health care programs were perfect and "better." This is not to say that international graduates can reform and make the US system more efficient, but more a "two heads are better than one thing." And it might have an effect in making a physician more informed at an international level.

You think I "glamorize" the numbers and details? They come directly from the source. Meanwhile "best to train with people who decided to go into medicine at the tender age of 18 and who drink themselves to death in pubs, then please go foreign. " Now tell me THAT isn't an exaggeration in the other direction. Please, don't be a hypocrite. The Brits, Irish, Canadians produce excellent doctors. The younger drinking age allows them to be better able to handle it. God, they're mad fun! But they know how to control themselves. You don't think drugs and alcohol abuse happen among US med school students? Dude, I don't know where you go, but that is just naive. I go to an undergrad where the med school is rather prominent...and all i hear them talking about is how much they drank/partied. So don't use the alcohol thing as a cheap way of trying to make foreign schools look bad and ourselves morally and educationally better. As for having to decide sooner than us whether medicine is the right choice, you should know that they have to pass a more rigorous series of graduation tests to determine where they can go to college and what courses they are permitted to study. This means they have to think seriously beforehand to decide what subjects to take exams in, and subsequently those that have decided to study medicine choose the appropriate qualifying exams. If it's the wrong choice, many of them change course although that means extra years in school or having to pay. But you don't get people willing to go through two more years of school than everyone else and pursuing a very difficult course if they don't want to become doctors. Anywhere. Actually for you to make such a mean generalization as that tells me you learned almost nothing about society and culture from your experience in the UK, and that's just sad.

As far as the US being so technologically advanced than the world's other leading countries. You're a bit wrong there too. While a good portion of technology is developed here, the others soon learn to close the gap. In other areas, they're "first." For instance, the university of Melbourne designed the bionic ear that has made a breakthrough in deaf or audio-damaged patients. They're not lacking for basic and essential equipment. The aussies also have a reputation of being very good at scientific research, as well as the brits. And european cell-phone technology is currently better than ours.

As for whether or not you want to come back to the US and practice. Of course, it is SAFER to do your education in the US. However, that is not to say that those who want to practice in the US MUST complete their education here. It's a question of weighing security with other beliefs, values and experiences you want from life.

As for my life history, it is less extensive than yours but does not legitimize the "superiority" or yours over mine. Actually, having spent much of your time abroad, I am quite surprised at some of your statements. I was born here, but am 1st generation - my parents emigrated from Hong Kong, where my grandmother was a nurse until retirement. I spent a year abroad in Ireland where i got to know many med students from Trinity College and RCSI, two schools I am applying to this year. I observered/volunteered at hospitals there too, but nothing extensive enough to get a real glimpse of their medical community. While I'd love to go back, I'm also applying to a couple Aussie schools cuz I haven't been to Australia before and think it'd be the perfect place for me. After I take my MCAT, I'll also apply to US schools but if I get accepted by an Australian school(s), most likely I'll choose to go there. Does this put me at risk for not being able to practice in the US? Possibly, but I'm not too worried since Australian schools have good rapport with US hospitals/programs and have a high reputation, especially in the areas which I'm interested in pursuing. It makes my work a little harder..having extra exams and all, but again, I'm willing to put up with them in order to enrich myself and expand my horizons. What I learn about medicine/practice/myself there allow me to become a truly compassionate, all-encompassing physician.
 
Members don't see this ad :)
•••quote:•••Originally posted by leorl:
•I'm also applying to a couple Aussie schools cuz I haven't been to Australia before and think it'd be the perfect place for me. After I take my MCAT, I'll also apply to US schools but if I get accepted by an Australian school(s), most likely I'll choose to go there. Does this put me at risk for not being able to practice in the US? Possibly, but I'm not too worried since Australian schools have good rapport with US hospitals/programs and have a high reputation, especially in the areas which I'm interested in pursuing. It makes my work a little harder..having extra exams and all, but again, I'm willing to put up with them in order to enrich myself and expand my horizons. What I learn about medicine/practice/myself there allow me to become a truly compassionate, all-encompassing physician.•••••I cannot believe that you wrote such a long post.
Let me get right to the point....

1) accordingly you used the word holistic wrong.

2) If you have a noble goal of reforming US health care, you might want to stay in the US for med school and perhaps do MD/MPP (public policy). Going abroad might give you a better perspective but won't get you in a position to lead the country into the "better" direction.

3) According to you, why don't all of we go abroad to bring back a different perspective? Let's all go through med schools all over the world!

3) Tech advanced. Go to Vancouver and ask Children's Hospital and Vancouver General Hospital to see what kind of equipments they have available and then come back. There is no argument here.

4) Yes I generalized a bit. But the students I interacted with in UK did almost drink everyday in the Pub. And many of the freshers I lived with had no idea why they were in certain fields. They often did it because they were "good" at it and did well on the A-level.

5) As for the most importantly thing, weighing security with other beliefs. I really think that you have the wrong skew on that.

6) Your attitude is killing me. Maybe you are serious about being a compassionate, well-meaning, changing-the-US-health-care-system physician. But if not, you gotta be blinded by your idealism X 3 by saying that "I'll also apply to US schools but if I get accepted by an Australian school(s), most likely I'll choose to go there."

7) By spending my time abroad, I see the goods and bads from UK and Canada v.s. US. I then make my own opinion that everything is not perfect but the American system is better than what I see in UK and Canada. So I chose to stay here. What's wrong with that? You seem to like to go the other way and romanticize Ireland and Australia, like a true rebel. The only people I know who has such a rosy view of things abroad are the ones who have never been there.

Cases in point. I was romanticizing about the tutorial system at Oxford that teaches students one-on-one with a professor and write papers that are based on original journal articles. When I got there, I found 1) the tutorial system is crap for the sciences because you don't get a good foundation and just write papers on topics that skip from here to there (but the system is awesome for the humanities and social sciences, for obvious reasons) 2) because of their emphasis on tutorials, their lectures and labs are crap (their lack of funding from the government also has something to do with it) 3) many students just drink and socialize almost every day. they might spend the afternoons study and that's it. And with only the prelim at the end of 1st year and the finals at the end of 3rd year that count for anything, they don't care about their education in other times 4) the UK is too expensive and at least a few years backward in technology for my taste (with the exception of cell-phone but tell me anything else they are more advanced in) 5) some people are allowed to turn master's thesis into PhD thesis if the quality is enough, 6) this I know for fact. once you graduate with bachelor, I believe that 4-5 years after you graduate, oxford will send you a letter to tell you that you are eligible for a master's degree from them if you can pay a certain fee, etc. etc. Anyway you get my point. But of course, every school is different and Irish school might turn out better doctors than Oxbridge does, right?

Another case. People in the US say that Canadian system is way better because it is universal coverage while keeping its cost low. That's what a lot of Americans say to me when they know I am Canadian. But for people living in Canada, we understand the long waitlists, the total lack of cutting-edge diagnostic machines (not that the technology is not there. heck, we can buy from the US if we have the $$$. and that's the issue. No $$$ from the government to buy anything new). I also know that the government deliberately limits the number of spots for specialists so that the country is mostly taken care of by primary care physicians. Often, you cannot become the doctor you want to be. And do you trust the government's projection of the number of specialists the country needs year by year?

Ok, SO if you really need to go to med schools in another country for 4 years to get a "better" view and experience their education and health care systems, then go ahead. • And if you are able to get into an American med school, I believe that you are shoe-in at an Australian school. Save yourself some bucks. just apply to Australia and leave your parents with some $$$ (AMCAS is really expensive). •
 
Sorry, had no idea the post was that long. I have a tendency to write a lot more than I mean to without realizing that it's actually quite lengthy.

1) holism - a theory or belief emphasizing the importance of the whole and the interdependence of its parts. Aside from a medical usage of the word, I fail to see how an international integration and outlook does not fit a definition of holism in the regular English usage.

2) We will just have to agree to differ. I regard your attitude as extremely constricting and closed-minded, so yours is "killing ME."

3) Going abroad is not right for some people, you assume too much. I do not suggest that EVERYONE go abroad to gain perspective, but that those who see it as an opportunity should not be discouraged. I also did not suggest that everywhere is tech-advanced. So Vancouver doesn't have equipment. Neither does rural America. "There is no argument there."

4) My idea is romantic. But so is going into medicine to "make a difference" or "improve the quality of life" in this world. Those "romantic" ideas end up playing a large role in society. How do you know it won't "lead the country in a better direction?" Those positions aren't restricted to whether US citizens studied in the US or out. What kind of doctors are in WHO? And as I remember from another post, quite a few FMGs end up being quite important chiefs and directors of medical programs.

5) So you have concluded that the US system is "better," but not perfect. I've concluded that the US system isn't perfect but not better, just different. And useful things can be learned from other methods.

So while we have quite differing opinions, it's clear that we've both thought about it quite a bit. This is not going anywhere. So let's leave the original poster to explore his/her own options and opinions for himself, because that is the primary way to learn about his priorities.
 
the simple fact is it is much easier to go to med school in the US, DO or MD if you want to work in the US.

i study in prague at a great school and love it, love the culture and everything. but, i would happily give it all back to study in the US, because my ultimate goal is to be a doctor in the US. and, no matter how well i do, there will ALWAYS be limits. i can almost guarantee that i will never have a chance to be a neurosurgeon in the US. do i want to? most likely no, but it still sucks.

if you want to learn about a new country, experience new things, etc..go abroad for a rotation or 2. do some postgrad work. whatever. but if you want all the opportunity, STAY IN THE US FOR MED SCHOOL!!! if you think otherwise you are fooling yourself.
 
Hey Guys,

I didn't realise the problems of "IMG" until I stumbled upon this forum. I was educated in England and Hong Kong and now I am a PGY 1, categorical resident in IM at Stanford. I am not the only IMG there. There are a few more, although they are mostly from Germany or England. I am not sure if I am missing the bigger picture but absolutely NO IMG issues have ever been raised among my colleagues. The comments suggested by the few gentlemen regarding IMG are unheard of in my workplace, at the very least. Perhaps I have been quite lucky with regard "IMG" status. In fact, they have found me quite interesting having studied in England after my incomplete education in Hong Kong. I have seen D.O. in the wards but not very many of them. And I am SURE that the process of picking their trainees are rather more complicated than the few gentlemen suggested. It's not simply a matter of D.O., USMG, IMG, etc. However, it's not improbable that some program directors have strong issues with either D.O. or IMG., thus, erroneously underestimate such applicants. Understandably quite interesting to generalise issues to keep your argument going. But keep in mind that such issues do not run linearly.
 
you are so right dr. peace...but, i think that a citizen of a country which does not have a large outflow of md's to the US, it is a slightly different game. us americans studying abroad are automatically assumed to be of a lesser caliber than the US students.
 
•••quote:•••Originally posted by leorl:
•Sorry, had no idea the post was that long.

2) We will just have to agree to differ. I regard your attitude as extremely constricting and closed-minded, so yours is "killing ME."

3) I also did not suggest that everywhere is tech-advanced. So Vancouver doesn't have equipment. Neither does rural America. "There is no argument there."

4) My idea is romantic. But so is going into medicine to "make a difference" or "improve the quality of life" in this world. Those "romantic" ideas end up playing a large role in society. How do you know it won't "lead the country in a better direction?" Those positions aren't restricted to whether US citizens studied in the US or out. What kind of doctors are in WHO? And as I remember from another post, quite a few FMGs end up being quite important chiefs and directors of medical programs.

5) So you have concluded that the US system is "better," but not perfect. I've concluded that the US system isn't perfect but not better, just different. And useful things can be learned from other methods.

So while we have quite differing opinions, it's clear that we've both thought about it quite a bit. This is not going anywhere. So let's leave the original poster to explore his/her own options and opinions for himself, because that is the primary way to learn about his priorities.•••••1) my post was too long too!

2) yeah, your idealism is killing me and my cynacism is killing you.

3) I am not close-minded but simply because I have been there and done that. I at least understand three countries' health care systems inside out. Been there done that.

4) compare Vancouver (the 3rd largest city in Canada) to rural USA is absolutely ridiculous. I chose Vancouver because I grew up there. I can easily compare the tech level at Toronto and Montreal hospitals to American big city hospitals. But I don't feel like it since your argument is getting illogical.

5) yup, the original poster is free to form his or her own opinion.
 
•••quote:•••Originally posted by neilc:
•you are so right dr. peace...but, i think that a citizen of a country which does not have a large outflow of md's to the US, it is a slightly different game. us americans studying abroad are automatically assumed to be of a lesser caliber than the US students.•••••Agree with neilc on Dr. Peace's comment. It is different to compare abroad schools that admit American citizens who could not make it into American med schools (hence these schools are profiting through that arrangement) to foreign schools whose main aim is to train their own physicians but some of these physicians happen to come across the ocean and settle in the US. Often for schools that perform both of these functions, the training in med school for both the Americans and their own country's nationals is the same. But the entrance standards for the entering matriculants of both types are different. And that's where I think that stigma orginiated. On one hand, you have people who score A's on A-levels to get into an UK med school. And on the other hand you have Americans who could not get into American med schools (often with GPA less than 3.3 on a 4.0 scale) and therefore enter an UK program. Those are different types of students. The Americans might smart up and start studying more after getting their second chance of becoming a doctor but some are just the same as before. Schools like SGU and Ross therefore have to weed out lots of students along the way.
 
Just do whatever is best for you. If you are considering "whatever" medicine as your career, then you are probably smart enough to make a good decision.
 
•••quote:•••Originally posted by DO-2-BE:
•i HAVE RECENTLY BEEN ACCEPTED INTO A DO PROGRAM. ALSO SGU. WHICH SHOULD I CHOOSE AND WHY?•••••bear in mind that quality of residency counts for a lot. Many od the "DO" residencies ar ein much smaller hospitals where you will not have exposure to tertiary care experiences. Now I dunno about you, but I would prefer to be treated by a physician that has seen it all, and not by somebody that has never seen it.
Some 200 bed hospital with ALL residencies probably won;t train the best doctors. Consider this when applying for a residency. Whether you go SGU or DO, do a residency at a good MD program, and by all means take the USMLE's and not that AACOMAS crap. Fellowships, and Uni programs don't know what those scores mean, so do the USMLE in addition to whatever the DO schools require so you will be marketable. No wonder why over half of DO grads do residencies at Allopathic programs.
Plus, for anybody that wants to read about " alternative" medicine, might I suggest Quackwatch.com
 
neilc...you said it best....IMG's are ASSUMED to be lesser of a caliber of student...and that is it...they are ASSUMED. Do I need to define what ASSUMED means?
 
Members don't see this ad :)
•••quote:•••Originally posted by smythe:
No wonder why over half of DO grads do residencies at Allopathic programs.
[/QB]••••I must clarify this statement. Half of the DO grads not only go into allopathic residencies for quality education, but for the sad fact that THERE AREN'T ENOUGH FRIGGIN' AOA GME RESIDENCY POSITIONS!!!
 
•••quote:•••Originally posted by smythe:
• •••quote:•••Originally posted by DO-2-BE:
•i HAVE RECENTLY BEEN ACCEPTED INTO A DO PROGRAM. ALSO SGU. WHICH SHOULD I CHOOSE AND WHY?•••••bear in mind that quality of residency counts for a lot. Many od the "DO" residencies ar ein much smaller hospitals where you will not have exposure to tertiary care experiences. Now I dunno about you, but I would prefer to be treated by a physician that has seen it all, and not by somebody that has never seen it.
Some 200 bed hospital with ALL residencies probably won;t train the best doctors. Consider this when applying for a residency. Whether you go SGU or DO, do a residency at a good MD program, and by all means take the USMLE's and not that AACOMAS crap. Fellowships, and Uni programs don't know what those scores mean, so do the USMLE in addition to whatever the DO schools require so you will be marketable. No wonder why over half of DO grads do residencies at Allopathic programs.
Plus, for anybody that wants to read about " alternative" medicine, might I suggest Quackwatch.com•••••Smythe, sprechen Sie Deutsch? Ich auch!

I think I was actually able to discern a few logical, coherent thoughts from this post. Ergo, a caveat:

Don't put too much stock in what you read on quackwatch.com. The site is authored and maintained by one person who makes a living "debunking fraudulent practitioners." Lots of the stuff on that site is libel. The AOA's lawyers are all over this guy, which wouldn't surprise anyone who reads his section on the "dubious aspects of osteopathy." I suggest that anyone looking into osteopathic medicine consult neither a biased, strictly osteopathic source nor an oppositely fraudulent one like quackwatch.com.

Good places to go are <a href="http://www.webmd.com," target="_blank">www.webmd.com,</a> which is as objective as you can get, and <a href="http://www.drweil.com," target="_blank">www.drweil.com,</a> the website of Harvard-educated physician Andrew Weil, MD, who makes a living out of analyzing complimentary medical practices and who very much believes in osteopathic manipulation.

Also, the general consensus on these forums--that all osteopathic GME is garbage and all allopathic GME is gold--is ridiculous. There's a lot of crap when it comes to DO GME, but there are lots of crappy MD residencies as well. As a matter of fact, there are some very fine osteopathic residency programs. PCOM residencies, for example, all take place at major, urban, allopathic hospitals like Temple, Jefferson, MCP, Children's Hospital of Philadelphia, Deborah Heart and Lung Center, and even Memorial Sloan-Kettering. The problem, as Pags alluded to, is that there are far too few of these to go around. PCOM has approximately 200 total residency slots, which means that in any given year only 1/6th or 1/7th of PCOM graduates can get spots, let alone the 2,000+ other osteopathic graduates!

UMDNJSOM residencies are the same deal, from what I hear--big, busy university hospitals. But they have the same problem in terms of numbers.

Sad but true. <img border="0" alt="[Pity]" title="" src="graemlins/pity.gif" />
 
If you are talking about the difficulty of entrance into medical school as a mean of comparison of the caliber of students, then American students should be far inferior than Japanese medical schools' students. Yes we have LOTS of Japanese fellows and residents at Stanford. Sometimes the whole lab are Chinese or Japanese Asians. In Japan, going to medical school is literally close to impossible. I know a Japanese neursurgical resident from UCSF and he is from the University of Tokyo. To me, he has to be pretty bright to have gotten into University of Tokyo medical school. Not only you have to score literally perfect on national/university entrance tests, but you have to take an equivalent IQ test and score around 170-180 to be in a lottery. And at the end you have to be pretty lucky to get picked. That's how difficult it is for the Japanese. Do you think PDs would be so idiotics as to make assumption that just because this bloke was educated in American medical schools, he has to be the best there is. I think not. PDs have minds too. They wouldn't spend too much time on these petty issues of IMG, USIMG, USMG, DO, etc.. One thing I know for sure is that if a Japanese students were to apply for Stanford residency, he will be sure to have a place at Stanford. In fact, I have talked about this Japanese thing with the Chair(not about IMG stuffs) with regard to postgraduate programs, research facilities, and money in Japan. He has been there for visiting and he told me that lab facilities in Japan are more superior than NIH or Stanford. Something which the Americans find hard to believe with their egos.
 
i know what assume means, my freind...

realize, if you are an american studying abroad, that assumption will be what decides your fate.

take the chance if you want, go on abroad. but, it is not the easiest, most direct way to acheive your goal, if your goal is to practice medicine in the US.

again, i agree that there is great medical education all around the world. certainly there are better programs than there are in the US, and more competitive. but, the prejudice against US citizens who go abroad to study remains, and likely will always remain.
 
[[/qb][/QUOTE]Smythe, sprechen Sie Deutsch? Ich auch!

I think I was actually able to discern a few logical, coherent thoughts from this post. Ergo, a caveat:

Don't put too much stock in what you read on quackwatch.com. The site is authored and maintained by one person who makes a living "debunking fraudulent practitioners." Lots of the stuff on that site is libel. The AOA's lawyers are all over this guy, which wouldn't surprise anyone who reads his section on the "dubious aspects of osteopathy." I suggest that anyone looking into osteopathic medicine consult neither a biased, strictly osteopathic source nor an oppositely fraudulent one like quackwatch.com.

Good places to go are <a href="http://www.webmd.com," target="_blank">www.webmd.com,</a> which is as objective as you can get, and <a href="http://www.drweil.com," target="_blank">www.drweil.com,</a> the website of Harvard-educated physician Andrew Weil, MD, who makes a living out of analyzing complimentary medical practices and who very much believes in osteopathic manipulation.

Also, the general consensus on these forums--that all osteopathic GME is garbage and all allopathic GME is gold--is ridiculous. There's a lot of crap when it comes to DO GME, but there are lots of crappy MD residencies as well. As a matter of fact, there are some very fine osteopathic residency programs. PCOM residencies, for example, all take place at major, urban, allopathic hospitals like Temple, Jefferson, MCP, Children's Hospital of Philadelphia, Deborah Heart and Lung Center, and even Memorial Sloan-Kettering. The problem, as Pags alluded to, is that there are far too few of these to go around. PCOM has approximately 200 total residency slots, which means that in any given year only 1/6th or 1/7th of PCOM graduates can get spots, let alone the 2,000+ other osteopathic graduates!

UMDNJSOM residencies are the same deal, from what I hear--big, busy university hospitals. But they have the same problem in terms of numbers.

Sad but true. <img border="0" alt="[Pity]" title="" src="graemlins/pity.gif" /> [/QB][/QUOTE]

Hey Mr DO-lover? Why are you trolling the Foreign medical sites? Does it make your Do seem better to bash somebody else. You have such MD envy that it kills you, and you get your jollies by bashing foreign MD's. Take 100 patients and ask them what is a DO, and then show them a foreign trained MD and ask them which one is a physician, and you will have your answer. ouch! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Eek!]" src="eek.gif" />
 
Actually, I'm a post-bacc premedical student. I just started 3 weeks ago. I haven't completed a single science course as my B.A. is in literature. I don't have a medical degree yet, nor have I applied to any medical schools or even taken an MCAT course yet. So as of now, I'm envious of anyone with a medical degree, regardless of what it is / where you get it. You guys are lucky!

However, I think your statements are baseless and inflamatory (at least, that's the impression I get--you write like an angry alcoholic). Do I envy a Harvard or Stanford M.D. degree? Yes. Do I envy a PCOM or UMDNJ or Michigan State D.O. degree? Yes. Do I envy an Israeli or European M.D. degree? Yes. Do I envy a Carribean M.D. degree? No. That's my opinion and I'm entitled to it. I'm not impressed by whether you have an M.D. or a D.O. degree. Most Americans who want a medical degree can get it somewhere on the planet. But I AM impressed by WHERE you got it! :rolleyes:
 
Wow, Hedwig...the way you write, I didn't think that you were as shallow as that last statement you made. An MD is an MD...SGU students do their clinicals in the same US hospitals that US medical students do them. Also, they take the same USMLE's that US students take...so..now what was it you were saying? <img border="0" title="" alt="[Eek!]" src="eek.gif" />
 
•••quote:•••Originally posted by IWSMD:
•Wow, Hedwig...the way you write, I didn't think that you were as shallow as that last statement you made. An MD is an MD...SGU students do their clinicals in the same US hospitals that US medical students do them. Also, they take the same USMLE's that US students take...so..now what was it you were saying? <img border="0" title="" alt="[Eek!]" src="eek.gif" /> •••••IWSMD, I apologize. I assumed that Carribean and Mexian students spent their clinical years down in the Community Hospital of Tobago or the like, mixing ether and washing their own instruments. I was not aware that you guys do your rotations at home in the good ole' USA. I am therefore very sorry for implying that a Carribean MD degree is inferior to an American medical degree. I seem to be propagating the same ignorance I purport to hate, which I regret, and I hope I haven't offended anyone. I guess that's the purpose of these forums. You live, you learn...

I guess DOs and FMGs both have highly unwarranted stigmas attached to them. Perhaps they should join forces and take the establishment by storm! Geez, imagine what'll happen when the first foreign DO school opens up (which has actually been in the planning stages for years). A foreign-trained American DO: possibly the most stigmatized candidate for an allopathic residency in the history of the world <img border="0" alt="[Laughy]" title="" src="graemlins/laughy.gif" />
 
•••quote:•••Originally posted by Hedwig:
• •••quote:•••Originally posted by IWSMD:
•Wow, Hedwig...the way you write, I didn't think that you were as shallow as that last statement you made. An MD is an MD...SGU students do their clinicals in the same US hospitals that US medical students do them. Also, they take the same USMLE's that US students take...so..now what was it you were saying? <img border="0" title="" alt="[Eek!]" src="eek.gif" /> •••••IWSMD, I apologize. I assumed that Carribean and Mexian students spent their clinical years down in the Community Hospital of Tobago or the like, mixing ether and washing their own instruments. I was not aware that you guys do your rotations at home in the good ole' USA. I am therefore very sorry for implying that a Carribean MD degree is inferior to an American medical degree. I seem to be propagating the same ignorance I purport to hate, which I regret, and I hope I haven't offended anyone. I guess that's the purpose of these forums. You live, you learn...

I guess DOs and FMGs both have highly unwarranted stigmas attached to them. Perhaps they should join forces and take the establishment by storm! Geez, imagine what'll happen when the first foreign DO school opens up (which has actually been in the planning stages for years). A foreign-trained American DO: possibly the most stigmatized candidate for an allopathic residency in the history of the world <img border="0" alt="[Laughy]" title="" src="graemlins/laughy.gif" /> •••••my apologies to you too sir as well. One thing that makes me see red is people that have not lived the Caribbean experience somehow trying to imply that these doctors are inferior. I would like all that feel so to ponder the thought of packing all of their worldly posessions into a suitcase which weighs 80 lbs or less, and fly off to a very hot, bug infested 3rd world country where for 6 months a year you are at the Mercy of Hurricaines. Where year round you are at the mercy of the opressive heat, and always with the thought that you are sure there will appear some obstacle or act of God that will prevent you from getting a job back in the USA, and you are convinced that American students are certainly doing better than you , and learning much much more. Then you move onto clinical rotations where you have no control over the quality of your education, as chances are you are rotating as a guest in some hospital department, likely with other US MD and DO, as well as other Caribbean schools because you see, many of the same hospitals which welcome the Caribbean student, also welcome the Kirksville student ( a sort of Modified off shore student.
Those docs that make it through teh process from the Caribbean usually studied harder, endured more, felt 100 times the angst, and generally paid their dues, and in many instances the good ones from the Caribbean .....well, you will not find a better physician. Residency is cake compared to the process.
So please forgive me when Do students, or American medical students try to imply that Caribbean trained physicians are not any good. Thank God for the USMLE, where we are given the opportunity ( and often do ) kick complete ass, and then carry that work ethic into residency where we frequently are numero uno as well.

Peace.
 
The USMLE and the COMLEX are not achievement tests, they are licensing exams. The difference between an achievement test (like the MCAT) and a licensing exam (like the USMLE or COMLEX) is that licensing exams are not constructed to make fine distinctions between high scorers, while achievement tests are. Licensing exams are actually constructed to set a MINIMUM cut-off. Scores above the cutoff are not necessarily linearly related to higher achievement/knowledge. The authors of the USMLE explicitly discourage residency programs from using USMLE scores to rank candidates for this very reason. Because to do so is to misunderstand statistics and to misunderstand the purpose of the exam. The purpose of the exam is not answer the question, "How smart is this person?", but to answer the question, "Does this person possess the MINIMUM required knowledge to practice medicine?"

Just because a FMG scores 240 on the USMLE does not mean that he is smarter, better prepared, or more clinically astute than an AMG who scores 210. All it means is that both candidates have mastered the BARE MINIMUM amount of knowledge to perform adequately at a given level. This is a fine distinction and common misunderstanding. However, if you read the NBME website (www.nbme.org or <a href="http://www.usmle.org)" target="_blank">www.usmle.org)</a> the issue is spelled out clearly.

Background essential to the proper use of results of step 1 and step 2 of the USMLE.

O'Donnell MJ, Obenshain SS, Erdmann JB.

School of Medicine, University of New Mexico, Albuquerque 87131.

This first of the four-part set of articles published in this issue provides general information and concepts about the Step 1 and Step 2 examinations of the United States Medical Licensing Examination (USMLE) needed for the proper use of these tests' results in three general, related, non-licensure applications: for the evaluation of the examinees' levels of academic achievement, for the evaluation of educational programs the examinees have experienced, and for the selection of examinees into residency programs. Several aspects of the tests are discussed: (1) their original and continuing purpose (which is to assess certain qualifications required for licensure of physicians); (2) their content; (3) their format and the emphases (relative to knowledge or skills testing) that different formats can give, and the concept that the ways the same content areas are formatted in a test will produce different results; (4) test administration, with a discussion of "speeded" versus "power" tests and the organization of test items by difficulty and by (or not by) topic; (5) reliability, with a discussion of standard error and the importance of understanding measurement error in order to discern real differences in scores; (6) scoring, with definition of anchor scores; and (7) interpretation, with discussions of pass/fail criteria in the past, present, and future of the USMLE tests. The authors close by saying that to interpret test performance properly, it is important not only to bear in mind the ideas in the present article but also to carefully review an actual test or at least a representative sample of test questions.

PMID: 8397597 [PubMed - indexed for MEDLINE]
 
Harp all you want about how these licensing exams shouldn't be used for ranking. Fact of the matter is, and I'm sure you know this already, the vast majority of PD's use these exams to help select and rank interviewees. If you scored a 230 on Step one, you will get interviews at programs A,B and D, but not C. Program C has a cut off of 231... Sorry Mr. 230, you should have read that one question more carefully... The point is, don't sit for these exams trying only to pass. You should put the effort into scoring as high as you can. Statistically sound or not, a higher number makes you look smarter.
 
Hopefully this will shed a bit of light. First of all do not listen to those who are too sarcastic/demeaning/ignorant towards either DO or International education (ie. smythe). Their opinions do not count in practical every day practice.
I have been working for quite some time at the University of Minnesota's teaching hospital. I have had the opportunity to discuss the DO/MD topic with residents, teaching staff, and physicians ranging from psychiatrists to orthopedic surgeons.
The destinction between DO and MD is purely academic: literally and figuratively.
In everyday practice there is no bias between the two. The only people who make the distinction are those considering what programs to enter. Nor have I heard much negative feedback about international programs. The one comment which made me decide againsed an offshore program was a professor here who said "be wary of any school who has to actively recruit applicants". We have all been sent brochures from Ross, SGU, etc....
A psychiatrist whom I spoke with was very enthusiastic when I was accepted into a DO program. "If I were to do it over I would go for a DO". His reasons were simple: most DO programs offer nutrition courses and if you never use manipulation "at least I could give my wife one hell of a back rub".
Finally, the most respected child psychiatrist here (maybe in the state) graduated from Des Moines University.
If you take anything from this PLEASE know that once you get into practice there is absolutly no difference. If you do well in either program you can secure a good residency. After that the DO/MD difference will not be an issue.
Those who will discuss and try to make distinctions are not in medicine for the true purpose of healing; thus do not matter.
 
I have a question. Does anyone know fo a DO who has gone on to practice overseas?
 
Some of you guys/gals are just a bunch of kids. This "debate" is POINTLESS....

NA NA NA NA NA, my WEE-WEE is bigger than yours.

Didn't you hear the expression "its not the size, but HOW YOU USE IT." I mean really MD, DO, KOKO-WAWA,....who cares?
Its not about your degree or school, it about you and your capabilities.

I don't know about you guys, but my school or degree does not make me, I MAKE MYSELF. I mean, who is more qualified:

A) A DO with 240 on the USMLE 1/2/3
B) A MD (US) with 220 on the USMLE 1/2/3
C) A MD (FMG) with 260 on the USMLE 1/2/3
D) A Chiropractor (if allowed to take the test) with 280 on the USMLE

If you ask me, I will choose the Chiropractor.;)

Is there a stigma towards DO? YES

Is there a stigma towards MD (fmg)? YES

Does it matter in real money-hungry dirty world? NO

A stigma is just that, a stigma-NOT REAL

Now if you are in medicine for respect (I feel sorry for you), then let your patients/co-workers respect YOU, not your degree or school. Work hard, be knowlegable, be professional, show them what YOU are made of.

Just my 2 cents

PEACE
 
I am a USMG ER physician in Chicago and I work with quite a number of FMGs. Initially, I was skeptical about their abilities, however, most of them are as skilled as USMGs, and in some ways many have better rapport with patients than USMGs. Yes there is an FMG stigma but in the real world everyone has to prove themselves.
 
Originally posted by Stephen Ewen
Keep in mind that most SGUers must travel about some to do clinicals. This usually entails higher cost than doing clinical in more or less the same general vicinity, i.e, all within driving distance from your stable residence.
Click to expand...

and WHAT US student does not?

my counterparts that got admitted to UNC med school, ended up doing, for example, medicine in charlotte (2 hrs away from chapel hill), surgery in chapel hill, a rural rotation somewhere out in bumf88k, and psych in raleigh.

myself, being one of the 90%+ of SGU students placed into a clinical center upon entering my 3rd year, did ALL of my core rotations between 2 hospitals 10 miles apart. My fourth year was somewhat spread out by CHOICE.

In terms of residencies, a previous poster was correct in stating its all what the individual makes of it. Our class this year had people get into Duke ER, Southwestern Ortho, Oklahoma Plastics :wow: , and countless excellent primary care residencies that I wont name. These people worked their tails off, and if you are of the attitude that I'm going to have to work hard to get a good residency if I go to SGU, well I got news for you pal, you better have that attitude REGARDLESS of where you go.
 
I think it's said before, but it depends where yuo want to do yuor residency. For example, I would argue that in the NYC area, a Sackler (Israeli) student has a better chance of getting a spot. On the other hand, I think a DO has a better chance in the midwest.

When I applied to medical school, I knew I wanted to return to the NYC area. My order went: Any US MD school, then Sackler, then DO. Fotunately, I got accepted to a US MD school.

One more point: I personally have nothing against DOs. I think for the most part, the training is the same. Most DO students that I am friendly with claim the OMM is a necessary nuisance, and don't inted on using it. Whether you want to admit it or not, there is a stigma about DOs both in the public and in academia. I don't support it, but it's the truth.
 
Depends

Go DO for several reasons

1. DO's have their own residencies that MD's are prohibited from applying to. If you want to specialize in a field like Dermatology, Orthopedic Surgery or ENT, you will at least HAVE A CHANCEbecause you can apply to the DO version of those residencies. I know osteopathic derm, ortho, optho, neurosurgery and ENT residencies are few but you are competing with students from only 20 schools as well so think about that. As an FMG, you will have practically no chance of matching into one of the above fields unless you score 260 on Step I and you have know someone. As an FMG, you can only apply to the allopathic versions in which case you will be competing with other DO's let alone MD's.

2. Residency directors prefer DO to FMG's. Sure, there may be few exceptions in New York but throughout the country particularly Texas, Florida and California, DO is preferred over FMG. That is the universal law at nearly every hospital.

3. DO schools do everything they can to see you graduate. However, in the foreign schools, they have a sink or swim policy in regards to passing their program. I'm not saying that Ross, AUC and SGU try to fail their students and have unfair policies. However, they don't treat you with kid gloves either. If you fail a class, you are on your own. They could care less because foreign schools start new classes every quarter and would prefer to loose the dead weight as opposed to keeping a student who is failing their program. MD and DO schools start new classes only once per year in the Fall so they have more of an incentive to see you pass your classes.

4. DO schools have better teaching. Most foreign schools aside from SGU are practically correspondence courses in which you teach yourself basic sciences. Why do you think so many foreign grads fail Step 1? I don't think I would have a very good chance passing Step I if I had lousy instructors and a less structured format in which I had to teach myself medicine with no help from anyone. Foreign schools are notorious for having bad teaching. Of course, foreign schools have their share of great instructors but overall the teaching is notoriously poor at foreign schools. You will essentially teach yourself everything.

5. Visiting Family: If you are close to your family, it's difficult to visit your family or friends when living on the island. Flying out of the Carribean is expensive as hell. It's not like you can pay $200 bucks and catch a roundtrip tick on Southwest Airlines that will be only be a 2-3 hour flight. Homesick? Too bac, you are stuck on the island for a while.

6. DO schools are in the U.S. so you have all the luxuries and comforts of living in the U.S. Living in Grenada and Dominica isn't like living in Hawaii. You are living in essentially a third world country with a nice beach. However, you aren't there for Spring Break. You are there on a daily basis. Not having basic luxuries over a prolonged period of time gets old really fast especially when you are stressed from studying. The last thing you need to worry about is insects, hurricanes, power outages, poor telecommunications, lack of access to convenient food (fast food, reliable grocery stores) etc.

7. Most DO's match at allopathic residencies anyway. So those fears about not getting hired at a successfull practice or matching for a residency is not true.

8. It is much less expensive attending a DO school than a Carribean schools especially when you account for the all of the moving around you will do as a FMG when doing rotations.

9. DO's can choose their location better. The East Coast is partial to FMG's but the West Coast, Colorado and Texas is especially tough for an FMG to break into. If you want to live in California, attend a DO school. There are two DO schools in CA as well as one in Oregan and AZ so DO's have no problems matching and practicing in the West.

10. Setting up rotations as an FMG is not an easy task. DO's can do their clinicals at any hospital they choose with a few exceptions. FMG's have a list of where they can rotate and they are pretty much in New York and Michigan. If you want to rotate in California or at reputable hospitals, it will be tough as an FMG.

Regarding Stigma facing DO's and FMG's

In the end, patients don't care whether you are a DO or a foreign trained doctor. Your personality will play the biggest role in the success of your practice. But as an FMG, you may never get the opportunity to enter a specialized field of medicine or match at a prestigious hospital in primary care because of where you went to school. DO's face this too but a far far lesser degree than FMG's. DO's in primary care face practically no issues with matching at competitive programs. There are many DO's at Stanford, Mayo, Hopkins and other programs that most FMG's have no chance at matching. I would much rather be a DO graduate of the Mayo Clinic residency program than an FMG MD who graduated from some no name in NYC because that was the only residency the Ross graduate could get. The guy with the DO from Mayo will get much better job offers upon graduation than the FMG from a weaker program despite the 'MD' initials behind their name.
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Next unread thread

Similar threads

U
Which Medical School should I attend: SGU or Ross?
Replies
21
Views
6K
the argus
the argus
V
Prescription medications at SGU?
Replies
1
Views
700
Gambino.
Gambino.
R
SGU vs MUA 2023 ; carribean MD school
Replies
22
Views
5K
S R K
S R K
D
  • Locked
Term 1 Honors sgu
Replies
17
Views
3K
Ryuzaki
Ryuzaki
oldpremed38
Is the Interview For SGU Still Standard Questions and Do You Still Have to Write an Essay?
Replies
3
Views
1K
Highlander455
Highlander455
Top