DO or reapply

[Where2B]

I totally agree that D.O. students must work harder to get what they want. And that's why they didn't call it "competitive" specialties for no reason either. I have no doubts at all that the people who matched into competitive specialties in one way or another deserve it. It is true that D.O. programs seem to favor classrank, but people who are rank high at D.O. school also tend to favor M.D. residency too (I am in that top 5%) so that leaves plenty of room for others. All my friends who are considered "gunners" or "snipers" or "hardcore" at my D.O. school would vomit at the thought of having to do a D.O. residency. We are sick of osteopathic hospitals and its politics. And looking at the current match list, the people who are always thought of being the most studious, outspoken, most involved with the schools and all, and so on most if not all matched into M.D. programs. I also had no interest in Sx, EM, Derm, or Ophtho it doesn't always mean someone who is competitive wants competitive things.

D.O. EM programs is another thing. I personally know people who fail classes repeatedly matching into osteopathic EM programs this year, would this opportunity have ever occurred at an M.D. program? This is why I say it is "easier". D.O. programs favor class rank, but they are also notorious for overlooking and giving people second chances. On the other hand I know many average D.O. students / in the 50%tile of the class who think they can all of a sudden pursue Ortho or NeuroSx, or EM, etc... Does not mean they will get it? No, well, at least they have a real chance of trying. The true "hardcore", "gunners" at my school actually all went for M.D. EM programs, and some did matched. So then what does all this leave room for????

Yes, it is a shame that osteopathic hospitals raise empty hopes and dreams for people who really want things badly like Neurosurgery or Ortho and then later not give to them after internship. And that's exactly why the students with the right grades and the right scores would not /should not even gamble with such uncertainty. And that's exactly why I and many others have opted to go straight into M.D. residencies.

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[daelroy]

I totally agree that D.O. students must work harder to get what they want. And that's why they didn't call it "competitive" specialties for no reason either. I have no doubts at all that the people who matched into competitive specialties in one way or another deserve it. It is true that D.O. programs seem to favor classrank, but people who are rank high at D.O. school also tend to favor M.D. residency too (I am in that top 5%) so that leaves plenty of room for others. All my friends who are considered "gunners" or "snipers" or "hardcore" at my D.O. school would vomit at the thought of having to do a D.O. residency. We are sick of osteopathic hospitals and its politics. And looking at the current match list, the people who are always thought of being the most studious, outspoken, most involved with the schools and all, and so on most if not all matched into M.D. programs. I also had no interest in Sx, EM, Derm, or Ophtho it doesn't always mean someone who is competitive wants competitive things.

D.O. EM programs is another thing. I personally know people who fail classes repeatedly matching into osteopathic EM programs this year, would this opportunity have ever occurred at an M.D. program? This is why I say it is "easier". D.O. programs favor class rank, but they are also notorious for overlooking and giving people second chances. On the other hand I know many average D.O. students / in the 50%tile of the class who think they can all of a sudden pursue Ortho or NeuroSx, or EM, etc... Does not mean they will get it? No, well, at least they have a real chance of trying. The true "hardcore", "gunners" at my school actually all went for M.D. EM programs, and some did matched. So then what does all this leave room for????

Yes, it is a shame that osteopathic hospitals raise empty hopes and dreams for people who really want things badly like Neurosurgery or Ortho and then later not give to them after internship. And that's exactly why the students with the right grades and the right scores would not /should not even gamble with such uncertainty. And that's exactly why I and many others have opted to go straight into M.D. residencies.

I agree with a lot of what you said. I agree that the top DO students prefer MD residencies but even the best DO students have a difficult if not impossible time matching MD neurosurgery, dermatology, opthalmology, ENT and ortho surgery. I have witnessed top DO students matching into MD radiology, emergency medicine, urology and general surgery which are also competitive but not as competitve as the former specialties listed above. This is why even those top students must apply for the DO versions because the MD world pretty much bans them from those fields. Again, I wasn't talking about every competitive residencby but just the top 5 of neursosurgery, dermatology, opthalmology, ENT and ortho surgery. Even the best DO students have a difficult time matching into the allopathic versions of these.

And regarding plastic surgery. It's tough for a DO to match into a plastics fellowship even if they did an allopathic general surgery residency. That's another hurdle so I stand by the idea that if your heart is really into doing something one of those 5 residencies I mentioned, it could be really difficult as a DO. Usually if a DO does match into an MD version of one of these residencies, they have to a lot of hustling on the side to match. All of them have amazing research credentials and have networked with the program director of the placed they matched intensively. They wouldn't have gotten those positions otherwise if they were just ranked 5th in their class with a 250+ USMLE with no research or connections like an MD student would be able to do.

 

[Where2B]

Yes, your post sounds accurate. I also didn't apply to any D.O. residency programs because had I matched I would not have qualify for the allopathic match (both matches are a month apart). So while of many of my classmates already knew even before the osteopathic match that they had been offered a pre-match spot, the disadvantage I had was walking around not knowing my fate. We all pretty much knew who got Ortho, Radiology, Ophtho, EM, NeuroSx, etc... even before any matches took place. The DME usually tells you this during the interview or right before the match. And the people who knew they didn't get any offers subsequently started to apply for allopathic. This year my school had exactly three unmatched osteopathic applicants who subsequently all matched into M.D. residencies or D.O. internship. And despite popular beliefs that only top candidates get top things some of the lowest ranked students all went into osteopathic IM which nobody wants. So only they are qualify to get the utmost competitive sought after Cardiology and GI residencies at the hospital...woohoo. I think this is the whole irony of D.O. programs. But, like I said who cares what route you took and how you got to become an orthopedist, neurosurgeon, or cardiologist... everyone shares the common desire to help others.

 

[sia_simba]

What is this thread about again ? DO or reapply ? heh..!!

I agree w/ most people...

1. DO NOT use DO school as a backup. its embarrassing for you. I got accepted to both MD and DO programs, but I choose DO because I want to go into primary care and know that OMT will provide me an essential tool to help my patients.

2. If you study long and hard, get high grades, good recommendations, your chances of attaining competitive residencies will be higher. Who cares about the Odds ? Are you going to not do something because someone else saids you can't do it because of your credentials ? I wouldn't. A lot of miraculous things happen in this world thorughout the course of human existence... they occur not because society allowed them to, but its because they believed in themselves so much, they did it anyways. NOTHING IS IMPOSSIBLE.!!!! Your limit is the sky so do whatever you want to acheive your dreams. But please refer to #1 above. =)

3. Stop arguing about residency this, residency that... its one person's opinion vs another w/ these amt of people graduated for this position or that position. However, it is true though... at nycom graduating class... someone did get into neurosurgery and plastic surgery.. are those good spots ? heh.

4. Goodluck in applying, but be certain of what you really want.

 

[LUBDUBB]

Vous etes jaloux parce qu'il y a les gens comme je qui choisissent seulement la medecine osteopathic. Je suis fier d'etre un futur medecin osteopathic.

There's some french for you.

...gens comme moi (not je).....

also..it's ost?opathique...although I don't expect you to know that since you're not a fluent speaker.

There's some french for you.

 

[LUBDUBB]

Vous ne devez pas orthographier bien pour devenir un docteur. Tout que vous devez etre est intelligent et s'inquieter.

Dude, Please Please stop posting in french, you're really butchering the language.

 

[daelroy]

2. If you study long and hard, get high grades, good recommendations, your chances of attaining competitive residencies will be higher. Who cares about the Odds ? Are you going to not do something because someone else saids you can't do it because of your credentials ? I wouldn't. A lot of miraculous things happen in this world thorughout the course of human existence... they occur not because society allowed them to, but its because they believed in themselves so much, they did it anyways. NOTHING IS IMPOSSIBLE.!!!! Your limit is the sky so do whatever you want to acheive your dreams. But please refer to #1 above. =)

3. Stop arguing about residency this, residency that... its one person's opinion vs another w/ these amt of people graduated for this position or that position. However, it is true though... at nycom graduating class... someone did get into neurosurgery and plastic surgery.. are those good spots ? heh.

4. Goodluck in applying, but be certain of what you really want.

The odds are important because this is the person's life we are talking about and a 250 K investment on top of that. I would hope anyone would base their decisions on odds and other statistics as opposed to the motivational speech of one person. A Carribean grad matched into Neurosurgery as well, it doesn't mean Carribean grads have a better chance of matching into neurosurgery. Anyone who is suggesting that a DO has the same odds of matching into one of the top 5 most selective residencies like an MD is misinformed. If the person has his or her heart set on matching in one of these 5 most selective residencies, and that is the only thing he or she can see themselves doing, then it's better to wait a year and try to go to an MD school where your chances are better. But if you are like most people and you don't know what you want to do, DO school is fine. Just be honest with yourself.

BTW: I got into several MD and DO schools and chose DO.

If someone wants to investigate this further about residency chances, go to the forums of each section and speak to DO who have matched into that respective field. They are often the most candid and the best source of information than someone who knows a classmate etc.

Also, how did the DO match into a plastics spot? There are no DO integrated plastics residencies and MD integrated plastics residencies don't accept DO's. I find this hard to believe. Can you provide a link to your matchlist.

 

[daelroy]

So while of many of my classmates already knew even before the osteopathic match that they had been offered a pre-match spot, the disadvantage I had was walking around not knowing my fate. We all pretty much knew who got Ortho, Radiology, Ophtho, EM, NeuroSx, etc... even before any matches took place. The DME usually tells you this during the interview or right before the match.

Just in case someone is reading this for the first time, you should be aware that a person cannot "match" into the DO version of many speciaized fields like Opthalmology. For example, you can't match for a DO Neurosurgery program. Therefore, it is incorrect to say that a student has matched because he or she has not. You apply for these programs during your intern year.

What Where2B is referring to is different. A student is able to match for a rotating internship or a primary care residency like family practice at a hospital that offers the specialized residency that you want to enter like dermatolgy for example. The program directors at these sites may offer "verbal promises" to applicants saying that the hospital will accept them into their dermatology or neurosurgery program after they complete their rorating internship or family practice residency at that hospital. However, these are just verbal promises and program directors are not obliged to honor these promises. They are not in writing. This was the point I was disputing earlier. You cannot say that your colleagues matched based on a promise because it's not a guarantee, especially when these program directors have failed to honor these "promises" in the past by taking past applicants or applicants from other programs or hospitals.

And this happens quite often with DO's. Someone will state they matched for a particular field because he or she was promised the dermatology residency as an example, However, if you look at the match list for that school, you won't see dermatology next to their name, you will see "traditional roating internship" or family medicine; that's it! You won't see the field dermatology listed anywhere next to their name and that's because these residencies are NOT linked like many MD programs. For example, an MD student who matched in radiology will have their intern year listed and then radiology pgy2 next to it. Anyway, this should demonstrate how disorganized and unreliable the osteopathic system is in attaining competitive residencies. So for someone to imply that they have just as good of a chance as an MD in matching for these fields is not being 100% accurate. I bet you also didn't know that many of these DO residencies are unfunded meaning you are paid anything not even a stipend. You are working for free in those programs. .

You cannot match into a DO version of a Optho, NeuroSx, Derm or Rads residency among others. You apply for these during your intern year usually in a rotating internship or as a primary care resident. If you think I'm being cynical, go to the forum of your field of interest like Optho and ask the DO's how valid those "promises" are. Like I said, if your heart is set on entering one of these fields, it might be wise to wait a year and apply for MD if you have a decent shot at getting into an allo school.

I want to end this by saying that not all specialized fields are inaccessible to DO's. In fact, MOST specialized fields of medicine are very accessible to DOs. Emergency Medicine is very common among DO's. Most DO's have not problem entering internal medicine subspecialties like caridiology and GI. I have seen a lot of DO's match PM&R, radiology, anesthesiology, OBGYN and even general surgery. The only fields that are tough for DO's are the specialized surgical fields like Neurosurgery, Optho, and ENT. Derm is a tough non-specialized fields but these fields are tough for everyone to enter including MD's. I know I may sound picky but I'm just being accurate. I don't want to give you the wrong impression by saying that your chances as a DO will be the same as that of an MD for attaining the most selective specialties. It's not true and a lot of my DO colleagues get defensive and stretch the truth since the DO vs. MD topic is sensitive. I'm choosing DO because I loved the medical school I chose and I have no interest to enter one of these intense fields.

 

[Where2B]

Daelroy-

I would like to know where you are in your medical education? And if you gone through the matching process yet? I am utterly shocked that you posted that D.O. cannot match into the "DO version" of Ophtho and NeuroSx! Where did you get this information? My school's affiliated hospitals matched two D.O. students this year into the "DO version" of NeuroSx and one from my school into Ophtho this year. They are all STUDENTS not interns or residents! While it is true that some hospitals like to give away these spots after internship it is not true of all programs! You are severely misinformed on this point. And yes the PD/DME does tell them before the match, and they knew about it. Some even get a bad news call from the PD and knew they didn't get it also BEFORE the match!

And always of course once again these posts are trying to help people who are interested in D.O. schools and NOT for people who are already at M.D. schools!! You sound bitter about something... Oh mai gosh....

 

[Where2B]

Yes, for clarification, matched means officially as in contract given, sent, signed, in the record book, stipend allocated, no more ass smooching, during your internship as a doctor!

 

[premeddo]

I don't think you should go into a DO program if you are thinking of it as a backup plan. You should go into a DO program because you like their way of teaching, you like their philosophy, etc. etc.

So I personally would tell you apply again at MD schools and not DO schools.

I myself am planning to enter med school next year. I plan to apply to our only DO school here in Texas and MD schools as well but if I get entrance to our DO program, guess what that will be my first choice!

So again...do what you think you will like. There's no point of going into a DO program and you be miserable in OMM classes cause you don't really care about it. And this would be for the next 4 years you'll be taught about OMM.

just my .02

luck with your journey!

 

[Adapt]

I don't think you should go into a DO program if you are thinking of it as a backup plan. You should go into a DO program because you like their way of teaching, you like their philosophy, etc. etc.

So I personally would tell you apply again at MD schools and not DO schools.

I disagree. Anyone who really wants to become a doctor should apply to both MD and DO schools even if DO is your backup. Of course, if you only get accepted DO then you should be happy with that and follow through.

I think you shouldn't view DO and MD as different but the same. It's just another opportunity to become a doctor.

 

[bella_dottoressa]

Agreed Adapt, agreed. Very few people I would say really go DO because they love the philosophy and way of teaching. I'd venture a guess and say the bulk of people who opt to apply DO just really want to be doctors with all their hearts for whatever reason and either a) were always fine with the idea of DO or b) got over it.

I would think that anyone facing reapplication or just going into their first cycle knowing they arent the world's greatest applicant would work really hard to get over the stupid premed DO crap, realize that you'll be doing the same job, making the same money, being the same person for the rest of your professional career...and apply DO.

 

[Where2B]

Yes, Adapt articulated the point! Thanks for stating exactly how a typical reasonable person should approach this whole process of trying to become a doctor. Everyone should view it that way.

I know it is very tough for people who are still premeds to grasp the thought of uncertainty throughout the long four years of medical school. Your outlook will change as you get closer and closer to your goal. My advice is to take it one day at a time and save your energy for internship.

There will be plenty more of bickering in medicine anywhere you go these days. Nine years ago when I discovered these forums as a college grad, the Internet had been in its infancy. These forums had been even fuller with people crying for help because they couldn't get into medical school. Every other post you see is from people saying he/she can't seem to get into medical school. Nowadays, everyone is smarter, wiser, and more and more are getting what they want because of these forums.

The only bickering that I didn't anticipate in my career is from attending docs bitter all the time about the current state of medical malpractice. I haven't seen many who encourage being a doc these days. I've heard enough of their misfortunes more than I care to share. That's why I am also a big advocate for someone who didn't get into medical school to also consider dental or other careers. I sure hope that things in medicine will change soon for the good of everyone. My whole point is that it is just plain silly to many others, who have already gone through medical school, to see ppl still disputing insignificant things. You guys will truly know, find out, and face what the real issues are in medicine one day. And it won't be about which school to attend M.D.or D.O.? (that's for sure). God bless everyone and those who have the altruistic soul to help others, and focus on what is right and pursue their own desires in life. What goes around will come around! Good luck!

 

[HeavyD]

I don't think you should go into a DO program if you are thinking of it as a backup plan. You should go into a DO program because you like their way of teaching, you like their philosophy, etc. etc.

So I personally would tell you apply again at MD schools and not DO schools.

I myself am planning to enter med school next year...

1) I'm always leary of individuals speaking without qualification (i.e., yet to go through the application process and gaining acceptance into a program) handing out advise. Tough to sell what you are pushing when you haven't a leg to stand on.

2) DO education is developed around passing boards. So are MD programs. As stated previously in this thread, the ultimate goal of us all is to become competent physicians. Differences in teaching? More altruist philosophy vs. another? Is the tooth-fair real?

3) DO schools are GREAT backup plans if you can't get into a perferred MD program as the outcome is the same. Yes, the same: a physician is produced. MD programs have some advantages, whether in-state tuition (only a few DO schools that are state-funded compared to numerous MD state programs), research-based prestige, or opportunities for certain residencies. Had a lecture this year by the chair of surg. for our school, plainly stated that admissions and administration are perfectly aware that MOST DO students are attending a program that was not their first choice of schools.

4) Do what you have to in order to realize your dream. Just look at the rates of matriculations vs. applications. You are fortunate when provided with options of programs but this is not a reality for some/many.

 

[premeddo]

Like I also mentioned...he should do what he likes.

I don't think you should discredit people just cause we have not been through the process of admission! I told him that personally to apply again to MD schools cause thats what he's wanting to get after. I know if he ends up in DO school eventually he will come to like it but mainly at first he will possibly hate it. I understand as well that an DO is an MD as an MD is an DO in terms of qulifications! But a lot of people don't get that. Now if he takes my advice or not its up to him. He also can see what type of credentials I might have! Im also not just "talking" when it comes to the process of applying. I have been to several open houses offered, I have seen several friends go into med school as well. So I know what that process is like! No I have not gone through it myself, but you don't always have to go through things to realize how they are! Its called observation.

I don't think you should go into a DO program if you are thinking of it as a backup plan. You should go into a DO program because you like their way of teaching, you like their philosophy, etc. etc.

So I personally would tell you apply again at MD schools and not DO schools.

I myself am planning to enter med school next year...

1) I'm always leary of individuals speaking without qualification (i.e., yet to go through the application process and gaining acceptance into a program) handing out advise. Tough to sell what you are pushing when you haven't a leg to stand on.

2) DO education is developed around passing boards. So are MD programs. As stated previously in this thread, the ultimate goal of us all is to become competent physicians. Differences in teaching? More altruist philosophy vs. another? Is the tooth-fair real?

3) DO schools are GREAT backup plans if you can't get into a perferred MD program as the outcome is the same. Yes, the same: a physician is produced. MD programs have some advantages, whether in-state tuition (only a few DO schools that are state-funded compared to numerous MD state programs), research-based prestige, or opportunities for certain residencies. Had a lecture this year by the chair of surg. for our school, plainly stated that admissions and administration are perfectly aware that MOST DO students are attending a program that was not their first choice of schools.

4) Do what you have to in order to realize your dream. Just look at the rates of matriculations vs. applications. You are fortunate when provided with options of programs but this is not a reality for some/many.

 

[HeavyD]

Im also not just "talking" when it comes to the process of applying. I have been to several open houses offered, I have seen several friends go into med school as well. So I know what that process is like! No I have not gone through it myself, but you don't always have to go through things to realize how they are! Its called observation.

Again you provide cause to discredit any potential 'advise' of yours. Using an appropriate analogy, your arguement would be the same as the scrub tech stating he is able to perform transplant surgery. "I've been in the OR and I've seen and heard what it's all about. I get to observe all the time."

I demean myself for getting into a pissing match here but there is a huge difference between hearing about the process and actually going through it. Ideals are great for one to rant about from a soap box but I feel compelled to call a spade a spade when it comes to giving recommendations regarding life-impacting choices of others that are solely based on half-cocked conceptions.