Do lower tier and newer DO schools adequately prepare for boards?

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phixius12345

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Hey guys, I'm curious about lower tier and newer med schools. I know that they are easier to get into, but I have seen that with other schools (like law school) if you go to a newer or lower tier school, you end up suffering when it comes time to take your boards.

Is this the case with Med school? Will going to a lower tier or newer Med school mean I'm likely to do poorer on the boards and steps?

Thanks in advance!

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The "tier" of the school doesn't matter. They are not meant to prepare you for boards. They all teach the same material albeit in different methods (PBL, small group, traditional lecture, etc.)

It is YOUR responsibility to prepare well for the boards.

Also... let's please stop using this "tier" word. It is really only a big deal on here that many of the SDN nerds and geeks use to make themselves feel better or compare themselves to others...

Also OP... not directed to you persay, but If it isn't Stanford, Yale, Harvard, JHU, UCSF, etc., please stop using "tiers" to describe any DO or MD school. Those who do sound like tools and pretentious d-bags that stay on this forum all day long.

Do your thing. Get in where you can see yourself going, working hard, and are comfortable. It's gonna be a long, expensive ride.

Lube up bruh.
 
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Hey guys, I'm curious about lower tier and newer med schools. I know that they are easier to get into, but I have seen that with other schools (like law school) if you go to a newer or lower tier school, you end up suffering when it comes time to take your boards.

Is this the case with Med school? Will going to a lower tier or newer Med school mean I'm likely to do poorer on the boards and steps?

Thanks in advance!

The tiers mentioned here are not about how adequately they prepare you for the boards. The tiers are mentioned here because of how much the school can offer it's students. For example, the higher tiers offer a lot more research opportunities and have their own teaching hospitals to rotate in. It has nothing to do with curriculum, but expect newer schools to have more hiccups in trying to establish their curriculum.
 
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Medical education is mostly self driven. It's actually pretty ****ed up.
 
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Yes, should prepare you if they hired the right people. Prestige or establishment doesn't mean teaching is good. It just means endowment and research is.
 
Brand new schools tend to have slightly lower than average board scores probably because they accept less competitive people.

I would imagine the first two years will be the same no matter where you go so don't pass up a new you like for a "higher tier" school you don't like unless you'll be like the first class ever.y


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With a 23 MCAT you should be grateful for any acceptance you get...
 
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With a 23 MCAT you should be grateful for any acceptance you get...

Damn....

that was mean.

But if that's the case OP... than yeah.... you got quite a ways to go. I bet the Caribbean schools would be willing to snatch you up right about now!
 
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With a 23 MCAT you should be grateful for any acceptance you get...

With that MCAT score, you're in danger statistically of not passing your boards. It doesn't even matter which medical school you go to. You can go to Harvard Medical School and have a high chance of not passing the boards...
 
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Damn....

that was mean.

But if that's the case OP... than yeah.... you got quite a ways to go. I bet the Caribbean schools would be willing to snatch you up right about now!

Sorry I wasn't trying to be mean, I have just seen like 3 threads OP made about his low MCAT and now he comes and appears to be attempting to be choosy with which schools he can apply to.. They can all get someone to their goals.
 
With that MCAT score, you're in danger statistically of not passing your boards. It doesn't even matter which medical school you go to. You can go to Harvard Medical School and have a high chance of not passing the boards...

That's a little much. MCATs overrated.
 
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The MCAT has predictive value. Here's the data from 14 USMD schools, published in 2005:

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2007 meta-analysis:

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That's a little much. MCATs overrated.

Not when you're scoring lower than 50th percentile...I can see how it won't matter as much after a certain score (27+), but you're talking about a 23 here...

Again, statistically, it is a risk to pass boards with a low MCAT score.
 
There's just too many DOs out there that went to school with sub 24 MCATs like ten years ago that are perfectly successful physicians that had no problem matching acgme. I know an interventional cardiologist that took it 4 times and the highest he could get was a 23.

I went from a 23 to a 504 and it's not like I'm smarter or anything for it. I just had a little more prep time is all.

I'd feel differently if we were talking about multiple attempts to break 20 or something.


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You guys are being a-holes. The OP's statistics have nothing to do with the question on this thread, and I'm sure the question applies to people of all statistics. I, for one, also have this question as there is a cast of doubt as to how well a new school could train physicians, particularly for their first class and for those schools who are opening a first campus (such as ARCOM).

At least for RVU's case, they have proven themselves once so you can say you'll be in good hands. But yes, the doubt is there and this is a valid question.

Also, did the OP ask you AnatomyGrey if he/she could get in or not with a 23 anywhere here? No. So even if you didn't mean to be rude, you are being rude.
 
Sorry I wasn't trying to be mean, I have just seen like 3 threads OP made about his low MCAT and now he comes and appears to be attempting to be choosy with which schools he can apply to.. They can all get someone to their goals.

lol nah man it's chill don't worry. Sometimes, honestly is the best policy and the truth hurts. I ain't mad atcha boo.
 
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You guys are being a-holes. The OP's statistics have nothing to do with the question on this thread, and I'm sure the question applies to people of all statistics. I, for one, also have this question as there is a cast of doubt as to how well a new school could train physicians, particularly for their first class and for those schools who are opening a first campus (such as ARCOM).

At least for RVU's case, they have proven themselves once so you can say you'll be in good hands. But yes, the doubt is there and this is a valid question.

Also, did the OP ask you AnatomyGrey if he/she could get in or not with a 23 anywhere here? No. So even if you didn't mean to be rude, you are being rude.

It's cool bro. Don't worry about it and don't get riled up. We all want the best for OP.

Let's all just chilllll bruh
 
Sorry, I just tend to get sensitive on this stuff. I volunteer in the mental health field and I know how much of an impact even on a comment on SDN could have on a reader.
 
Sorry, I just tend to get sensitive on this stuff. I volunteer in the mental health field and I know how much of an impact even on a comment on SDN could have on a reader.

I feel you bro but let's not forget that this is the internet.

Something about having a computer and not knowing who you are actually talking to does wonders for peoples' confidence when saying nasty and insulting things with no regard... Hell! I do it myself!

But we all want the best for OP. Sometimes... some things just need to be said no matter how harsh they may seem. I want everybody to win outchea.
 
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When I was interviewing at DO schools, I felt that some of the newer DO schools were a little more innovative, academically, than the older schools.
Some of the older schools justified their curricular peculiarities by saying "We've been doing this for decades, we know what we are doing" while the newer schools were much more open to student input and modifying the curriculum to meet the ever changing demands of medical education. Older schools are tough to change.
Some concrete examples I experienced on the interview trail:
  • Most students I met at WesternU during the interview and open house talked about how much they hated the mandatory big-group/large-group style of learning during OMSII and how they felt unprepared during board prep but the school keeps pushing it.
  • NYITCOM doesn't let students review exams after completion. Administration doesn't budge despite massive student protest and petitions (see the pre-osteo NYITCOM threads to see how bad it is)
  • Rocky Vista implemented a bi-weekly ultrasound lab for OMSI&II after OMSIII students in 2012 noticed that a more comprehensive, "hands-on" radiology curriculum would help out in OB and FamilyMed rotations/electives.

Older schools do have better quality clinical rotation programs but, again, the national medical education landscape is constantly changing and it's tough to adapt when/if you've been doing things a certain way for decades. Nova requires students to do 5 months of primary care, including a 1 month rural. I know that was a big issue for some of the interview candidates. One student actually asked the Dean if this would change and the dean said that it was unlikely and said how they've been doing it this way since the beginning of the school.

From my own experience, while doing a masters at a medical school and on the interview trail, I have often noticed how far-removed some medical school administrators from the evolving medical landscape in the country. I spoke to one of my interviewers at a big research-heavy MD school whose training was in internal medicine about pre-exposure prophylaxis and how it can save the lives of gay men but he stared blankly into my eyes and said that he had never heard of that drug before. I was really surprised and disappointed. Anyway, just my 2 cents.
 
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There's just too many DOs out there that went to school with sub 24 MCATs like ten years ago that are perfectly successful physicians that had no problem matching acgme. I know an interventional cardiologist that took it 4 times and the highest he could get was a 23.

I went from a 23 to a 504 and it's not like I'm smarter or anything for it. I just had a little more prep time is all.

I'd feel differently if we were talking about multiple attempts to break 20 or something.


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I pretty much have the same view here as well. My friend told me of an ER doc who took his exam 6 times. There are a lot of confounding elements as to why they score so low (didn't study enough, did have right study tools, test day issues). Even if that weren't the case, they could still turn it around in medical school. Even schools like KCU, with their MCAT averages at 29 today, 10 years back they had averages of 25. So that would mean nearly 50% of their class were at risk of failing their boards. Yet I am pretty sure the vast majority still passed and are doctors today.

It's not to say we should dismiss the meta-analysis above, but there are so many other factors at play that we shouldn't take it too seriously.
 
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I pretty much have the same view here as well. My friend told me of an ER doc who took his exam 6 times. There are a lot of confounding elements as to why they score so low (didn't study enough, did have right study tools, test day issues). Even if that weren't the case, they could still turn it around in medical school. Even schools like KCU, with their MCAT averages at 29 today, 10 years back they had averages of 25. So that would mean nearly 50% of their class were at risk of failing their boards. Yet I am pretty sure the vast majority still passed and are doctors today.

It's not to say we should dismiss the meta-analysis above, but there are so many other factors at play that we shouldn't take it too seriously.

10 years ago that 25 is really 28-29 today. There were a lot less people applying and the percentiles do change year after year. Let's say there were 10,000 applicants ten years ago and now 20,000 applicants this year, you can't really say that someone with a 25 back then will succeed the same as someone with a 25 now. Medicine has become a lot more complex and competitive in the last ten years. Why should a school with limited spots take those who score lower when they get thousands more who score higher?

Plus, I'm sure the USMLE and COMLEX have also evolved, and have become more difficult. I've looked at MCAT exams ten years ago and they were way easier than the current MCAT.

For one, I'm a proponent of increasing the stats for DO to almost match that of MD. It is one way of getting over the bias DO has versus MD. I don't want DO's to evolve into pharmD where it expands too fast and accepts too many students and as a result starts being increasingly difficult to find jobs...
 
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One low MCAT score means nothing, it can be a result of personal problems, lack of time to prepare, or just not knowing how to adequately approach standardized tests. Now multiple low MCAT scores is problematic to say the least. I've read a study that stated there is no correlation between MCAT, Step I, and Step II; meanwhile I've read others that state a positive correlation between MCAT and step scores. The average MCAT number for the accepted students is rising because there is more resources now than there ever was back in the 1990's and early 2000's.

I am not a big fan of attending new schools because of the uncertainty surrounding the quality of rotation sites. Don't get me wrong, the curriculum is also important but you can make the best out of nothing because years 1 and 2, you're kinda on your own. I am also not a fan of all these new methods some schools are coming up with, I prefer the good old curriculum that schools have been using for years. For instance, I dislike the system based curriculum, and upon talking to students who attended schools that use this method, the students felt that this method has put them at a disadvantage when it comes to the boards. This is coming from multiple students, attending different schools so it's not just one person's opinion.
 
I pretty much have the same view here as well. My friend told me of an ER doc who took his exam 6 times. There are a lot of confounding elements as to why they score so low (didn't study enough, did have right study tools, test day issues). Even if that weren't the case, they could still turn it around in medical school. Even schools like KCU, with their MCAT averages at 29 today, 10 years back they had averages of 25. So that would mean nearly 50% of their class were at risk of failing their boards. Yet I am pretty sure the vast majority still passed and are doctors today.

It's not to say we should dismiss the meta-analysis above, but there are so many other factors at play that we shouldn't take it too seriously.

I think that was the average 5 years ago. Class of 2017 had something like a 26. Pretty amazing when you think about it. Western U was the only school in the 28+ range ~15 years ago.

The c/o 2019 average of accepted students was 29. The actual matriculant average is something like a 27.9 which isn't too bad.

I was thinking about this myself. The classes who had 23-25 MCAT scores probably did a lot worse on USMLE.

Last year our average on Step 1 was 225 but only 60% took it. I know a handful of people who broke 240+ and 1 person who had 250+.
 
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I think that was the average 5 years ago. Class of 2017 had something like a 26. Pretty amazing when you think about it. Western U was the only school in the 28+ range ~15 years ago.

The c/o 2019 average of accepted students was 29. The actual matriculant average is something like a 27.9 which isn't too bad.

I was thinking about this myself. The classes who had 23-25 MCAT scores probably did a lot worse on USMLE.

Last year our average on Step 1 was 225 but only 60% took it. I know a handful of people who broke 240+ and 1 person who had 250+.

Most of the students also went into protected AOA residencies, not ACGME. Currently, more and more are going into ACGME. The increase in MCAT scores may have some correlation in students getting better scores in Step 1 and getting into more competitive residencies.

MCAT scores may not be a solid predictor of how good of a physician you'll be in the future, but there is a correlation of higher Step scores to MCAT.
 
10 years ago that 25 is really 28-29 today. There were a lot less people applying and the percentiles do change year after year. Let's say there were 10,000 applicants ten years ago and now 20,000 applicants this year, you can't really say that someone with a 25 back then will succeed the same as someone with a 25 now. Medicine has become a lot more complex and competitive in the last ten years. Why should a school with limited spots take those who score lower when they get thousands more who score higher?

Plus, I'm sure the USMLE and COMLEX have also evolved, and have become more difficult. I've looked at MCAT exams ten years ago and they were way easier than the current MCAT.

For one, I'm a proponent of increasing the stats for DO to almost match that of MD. It is one way of getting over the bias DO has versus MD. I don't want DO's to evolve into pharmD where it expands too fast and accepts too many students and as a result starts being increasingly difficult to find jobs...

I respectfully disagree. If people were able to succeed and match into acgme residencies when they couldn't break a 25 on an easier MCAT than the more recently administered tests, then I just don't see what the problem is with getting the same score on a harder exam. So as far as the low MCAT meaning OP wouldn't succeed anyway even if admitted, I just don't see it.

Since the thread has devolved into discussing OP's stats, I do agree that there's really no reason that he/she should expect to get in with that score. Not only because it's low, but also because it's a 23 and not a 498(or whatever it is on the new scale). That score has to be at least ~18 months old which makes me think he/she actually was oblivious and entitled enough to waste a year applying just to avoid a test.

I took the old test under non-ideal circumstances because of the impending format change, got the same score and decided I wouldn't stand for it. I couldn't get a retake for the new exam and decided to just take the new one because being a doctor is...ya know...something I want to do more than anything. Having that score and deciding not to do anything about it screams lazy entitled premed.

Edit: a quick search of previous posts shows that I straight up called it. Why in gods name did you make these same threads last year, get the same advice, and waste a whole year and probably lots of money only to end up exactly where everyone told you you'd be? If you're really a nontrad and ready get this going, why not spend 3 months studying for the new test instead of wasting a year crossing your fingers? Don't get me wrong, I applied "low-tier" with that score just to get my app going, but I was waiting for my retake results before my first secondary was submitted.





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I respectfully disagree. If people were able to succeed and match into acgme residencies when they couldn't break a 25 on an easier MCAT than the more recently administered tests, then I just don't see what the problem is with getting the same score on a harder exam. So as far as the low MCAT meaning OP wouldn't succeed anyway even if admitted, I just don't see it.

Since the thread has devolved into discussing OP's stats, I do agree that there's really no reason that he/she should expect to get in with that score. Not only because it's low, but also because it's a 23 and not a 498(or whatever it is on the new scale). That score has to be at least ~18 months old which makes me think he/she actually was oblivious and entitled enough to waste a year applying just to avoid a test.

I took the old test under non-ideal circumstances because of the impending format change, got the same score and decided I wouldn't stand for it. I couldn't get a retake for the new exam and decided to just take the new one because being a doctor is...ya know...something I want to do more than anything. Having that score and deciding not to do anything about it screams lazy entitled premed.
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Agreed. It is hard to compare what is happening now vs. 10 years ago. It was easy to get into MD as long as you had a 30, but now with a 30, it is very difficult to get in somewhere. The reason why we can't really compare is that there are a lot more people taking the MCAT now than ever before. Someone who scored a 30 10 years ago doesn't equate to someone who scored a 30 now.

That's why you can't really compare someone who scored a 25 10 years ago would still score a 25 now. Perhaps he might've been scoring 27-28 on the newer MCAT. That's why most schools only take MCATs 3 years old.
 
Agreed. It is hard to compare what is happening now vs. 10 years ago. It was easy to get into MD as long as you had a 30, but now with a 30, it is very difficult to get in somewhere. The reason why we can't really compare is that there are a lot more people taking the MCAT now than ever before. Someone who scored a 30 10 years ago doesn't equate to someone who scored a 30 now.

Yeah, we're both just speculating premeds at this point and this will probably all seem pretty silly one day, but my personal opinion is that a 30 then is like s 25-26 today.
 
I interviewed to a good amount of schools: ACOM, CUSOM, NYIT-COM, LECOM-B, LECOM-E, and TOURO-M, and after Interviews, I found that NYIT-COM ranked at the bottom of my list. Even though it is established, It rubbed me off the wrong way. The administration did not even care about you, I felt the whole interview day was boring, the students showed zero excitement, and it just felt like, you were paying 55k a year for the name. ACOM and CUSOM, were both schools, I felt that had the best interview. They were informative, and actually cared about you, and I feel like both these schools will be amazing in a few years. I feel like instead of looking at tiers, you should look at the school where YOU will THRIVE. Sometimes more established, doesn't mean better, it is very subjective!
 
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10 years ago that 25 is really 28-29 today. There were a lot less people applying and the percentiles do change year after year. Let's say there were 10,000 applicants ten years ago and now 20,000 applicants this year, you can't really say that someone with a 25 back then will succeed the same as someone with a 25 now. Medicine has become a lot more complex and competitive in the last ten years. Why should a school with limited spots take those who score lower when they get thousands more who score higher?

Plus, I'm sure the USMLE and COMLEX have also evolved, and have become more difficult. I've looked at MCAT exams ten years ago and they were way easier than the current MCAT.

For one, I'm a proponent of increasing the stats for DO to almost match that of MD. It is one way of getting over the bias DO has versus MD. I don't want DO's to evolve into pharmD where it expands too fast and accepts too many students and as a result starts being increasingly difficult to find jobs...

Focusing on test scores over other aspects of the applicants is part of the problem of schools and companies creating these exams. There should be other diverse methods for evaluating students. By focusing so much on test scores, schools pick such students and thus tests have to be re-calibrated to measure the differences amongst students. Their top priority should be looking for a good future doctor and second is a good student.

For the sake of the conversation, let say nothing can be done to change the current culture of higher MCAT scores => better students => tougher exam => even higher MCAT scores => even better students. I don't believe the faith of certain low scorers to be set in stone (of course there are scores so low that they maybe beyond the help, I don't believe that point to be in the low 20s range). As long as the correct study methods are learning during medical school for classes and the correct board prep materials are used (we have more types of prep materials than in the past), then a person has a statistically better chance of passing their boards.

I had a friend who matched recently that got into my local MD with a 22 MCAT. He went through the local post-bacc program and passed it. The program prepped him very well and thus was able to pass all his boards. He also told me there were several classmates and people senior to him who have scores from 22-25 in the program. These ones who did pass the program all passed their boards (the USMLE step I and II). To be fair the program has a 50-70% pass rate, so it serves a a weeder too. However, if study methods are given and done correctly these students can pass. Medical schools have to teach a lot of students, so these individualized interventions are very hard or if they are done, they are done poorly.

Schools should look for a standardized way of evaluating students beyond the MCAT and GPA. This would lessen the extreme focus on test scores.

On a side note, by increase MCAT stats for DO schools doesn't help change the way they are perceived by PDs of residency programs. You still have the USLME which already does a good job of this (I think there is too much of a reliance on this exam too). The key to bridging the gap in this case is by standardizing clinical education across the board, which are on par with the LCME. However, even then, this separate but equal aspect won't be enough and integration into the LCME would be the best option.
 
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Interviewed at CUSOM and BCOM and loved their openness, understanding of new trends, and safe but innovative approaches to medicine. I ended up going with an older DO school in state out of necessity but if had my way would have gone with one of the new ones

moral of story is pick based on what fits best and to not dismiss a school based on perceived "tier" or age
 
Focusing on test scores over other aspects of the applicants is part of the problem of schools and companies creating these exams. There should be other diverse methods for evaluating students. By focusing so much on test scores, schools pick such students and thus tests have to be re-calibrated to measure the differences amongst students. Their top priority should be looking for a good future doctor and second is a good student.

For the sake of the conversation, let say nothing can be done to change the current culture of higher MCAT scores => better students => tougher exam => even higher MCAT scores => even better students. I don't believe the faith of certain low scorers to be set in stone (of course there are scores so low that they maybe beyond the help, I don't believe that point to be in the low 20s range). As long as the correct study methods are learning during medical school for classes and the correct board prep materials are used (we have more types of prep materials than in the past), then a person has a statistically better chance of passing their boards.

I had a friend who matched recently that got into my local MD with a 22 MCAT. He went through the local post-bacc program and passed it. The program prepped him very well and thus was able to pass all his boards. He also told me there were several classmates and people senior to him who have scores from 22-25 in the program. These ones who did pass the program all passed their boards (the USMLE step I and II). To be fair the program has a 50-70% pass rate, so it serves a a weeder too. However, if study methods are given and done correctly these students can pass. Medical schools have to teach a lot of students, so these individualized interventions are very hard or if they are done, they are done poorly.

Schools should look for a standardized way of evaluating students beyond the MCAT and GPA. This would lessen the extreme focus on test scores.

On a side note, by increase MCAT stats for DO schools doesn't help change the way they are perceived by PDs of residency programs. You still have the USLME which already does a good job of this (I think there is too much of a reliance on this exam too). The key to bridging the gap in this case is by standardizing clinical education across the board, which are on par with the LCME. However, even then, this separate but equal aspect won't be enough and integration into the LCME would be the best option.

I've seen on here from a couple of posters about how we need to find a way to evaluate students more holistically instead of just over emphasizing board scores. But just what would that entail for DOs? DOs probably have worse facilities, research, and clinical education than most MDs, so wouldn't de-emphasizing board scores actually hurt DOs since it's a metric that can literally show how DOs measure up to MDs on a level playing field? I'm not trying to start an MD vs DO thread (although it has been literally seconds since the last one was created so maybe it's overdue). I've just always respected your opinions on such matters and I'm curious as to how you think things would really play out if DOs couldn't compete by being more competitive on boards than their MD counterparts.
 
I've seen on here from a couple of posters about how we need to find a way to evaluate students more holistically instead of just over emphasizing board scores. But just what would that entail for DOs? DOs probably have worse facilities, research, and clinical education than most MDs, so wouldn't de-emphasizing board scores actually hurt DOs since it's a metric that can literally show how DOs measure up to MDs on a level playing field? I'm not trying to start an MD vs DO thread (although it has been literally seconds since the last one was created so maybe it's overdue). I've just always respected your opinions on such matters and I'm curious as to how you think things would really play out if DOs couldn't compete by being more competitive on boards than their MD counterparts.

In this current environment, the USMLE is still an necessity for DOs wanting competitive programs. This is the board exam that US MDs take and so it serves as one of those equalizers. Your right in that it is a necessary tool for DOs to match well.

The key to this change is to integrate all over site of DO schools under the LCME. This will then serve as an even bigger equalizer when come time for matching. PDs cannot filter out DOs in this case since it is a non-LCME filter. Plus more quality control can be done for those clinical rotations that have very little (if they cannot meet them then these rotations will and should be not used). Only then can a deemphasis on board scores can be done especially for DOs. The aspect of scoring well cannot be taken away entirely, but students shouldn't be killing themselves to get a 260 to match well. For starts, EM is using SLOE to gauge their applicants.

https://www.cordem.org/files/DOCUMENTLIBRARY/SLOR/SLOE Standard Letter of Evaluation 2015.pdf

No other residencies use such a system currently to gauge their candidates. If these type of systematic evaluations are done, then a more broad evaluation of the student can be made. This can help lessen the extreme reliance on the USMLE if all residency programs did similar evaluations. I feel this is the direction medical school education and residency programs should be taking. We should have a similar system at the premedical level. However, the question is how do we make such a thing possible? This is what should be pondered.
 
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