Divorce rate

[Merely]

Why do psychiatrists have the best lifestyle yet the highest divorce rate of any specialty? Seems paradoxical...insights please

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[erg923]

Why do psychiatrists have the best lifestyle yet the highest divorce rate of any specialty? Seems paradoxical...insights please

Not enough Catholic psychiatrists.

 

[darknecrosforte]

Last I checked, psychiatry was the most liberal/progressive-containing specialty (something like 9 to 1 compared to gen surg 3 to 7). Ideologically, they're more likely to deem one of the most fundamental traditions of humanity as archaic and unneeded.

Best lifestyle though? Maybe not.

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[erg923]

Last I checked, psychiatry was the most liberal/progressive-containing specialty (something like 9 to 1 compared to gen surg 3 to 7). Ideologically, they're more likely to deem one of the most fundamental traditions of humanity as archaic and unneeded.

Then why did they get married?

 

[splik]

Psychiatry does not have the best "lifetstyle" and I would question whether psychiatrists have the highest divorce rates (though we do have the highest suicide rates). That was based on a single study that is 20yrs old following up physicians over 20 years. The idea of "lifestyle" was anathema to docs of previous generations and plenty of psychiatrists worked long hours. Psychiatry was a specialty in terminal decline during the period that study was conducted with extremely high levels of disastisfaction due to poor reimbursement, declining lengths of stays, biologization of the field, and managed care. psychiatry is quite a different field today than it was in the 80s and 90s (for better or for worse) and satisfaction is higher today than it was in the 90s at least. Also bear in mind fewer marriages end in divorce today in general compared with 20 yrs ago.

If we assume that psychiatrists do have the highest rate of divorce (which I think is questionable), it may be that it is because psychiatrists are more physically present (if emotionally unavailable) and not in spite of it. In the days when marriages lasted longer it was also the era that wives rarely saw their husbands.

 

[splik]

another thought i had is back then it was common for psychiatrists to be in their own psychoanalysis - which usually ends in divorce.

 

[Merely]

Very interesting, but why are you going saying psych doesnt have the best lifestyle? The majority work around 40 hours a week and make 200k+, what even comes close to that aside from like derm? Also, i'm pretty sure psych has by far the easiest residency in terms of difficulty and hours worked...

 

[splik]

In general psych residencies are lighter in terms of hours etc than other specialty residency programs but some psych residency programs are more intense than some lighter IM residency programs. psych residency programs vary from those where you'll be working 70-90hrs a week and have few free weekends, to those with no call at all.

also bear in mind that 40 hours of psych tires me out the same as 60hours of medicine. psychiatry may not be the most physically or cognitively taxing specialty, but it's emotionally gruelling. That is one of the reasons why many psychiatrists don't work full time, rather than simply lifestyle, it's just that much more exhausting. Some people don't feel that way, but they are the ones who are emotionally unavailable to their patients. this is also why telepsych is attractive to some shrinks, because its less emotionally taxing to have a screen separating you from the patient. I really enjoy working with patients psychotherapeutically but right now it's just too much for me, so I don't have any patients of my own

currently i work 5 days a week clinically, and also have forensic stuff that bleeds over into evenings and weekends, and for me at least, that is unsustainable.

 

[J ROD]

Yeah, I average 60-65 hrs/wk.......no cake walk here. My program seems harder than my buddy who is IM at a community based. Should be better next year. But overall I do think Psychiatry once you are an attending can be one of be lifestyle specialties if you can stand the patient population. Just like I would go nuts seeing derm patients all day. To each their own. Rheum and Endo do not have too bad.

 

[J ROD]

I could see a high divorce rate given our nature to like to analyze and criticize

 

[erg923]

I could see a high divorce rate given our nature to like to analyze and criticize

That's not really what we should be doing. That's called being a dick.

 

[darknecrosforte]

That's not really what we should be doing. That's called being a dick.

I ask my housewife all the time if there is anything I can do to improve as a husband, from cooking to conversation to chores, etc. She asks me how to help stimulate our infant to be healthier and smarter. I criticize her inability to set boundaries with her family who unintentionally rob her of precious nap time by wanting to "hang out" so much.

It isn't being a dick to facilitate your life partner's goals via intermittent feedback.

 

[J ROD]

That's not really what we should be doing. That's called being a dick.

I like being a really big dick.....

 

[erg923]

. I criticize her inability to set boundaries with her family who unintentionally rob her of precious nap time by wanting to "hang out" so much.

Husband of the year.

 

[Crayola227]

honestly, call me nuts, but I would expect that psychiatrists would be just as likely as the next guy to possibly buy into the deluded dream that is marriage....

perhaps they are just better at recognizing when it's time to get out, and do so, rather than just lingering in denial and misery, and can face fear of change and loss, and just have better coping skills for all that?

basically I might not posit that being a psychiatrist magically makes one better at intimate relationships (like, the hardest task any human seems to set upon doing), but I like to think y'all excel in recognizing pathology, and coping skills for such

I think anyone can get caught up in a bad relationship, but not everyone seems to have the same skill in getting out

it doesn't have to be a negative reflection of the psychiatric profession if indeed they do have a higher divorce rate

 

[Crayola227]

also I don't think being a psychiatrist is protective from failed or abusive relationships, but I would hope that the same insight you use to help patients get out of such might prove useful

 

[NickNaylor]

I have been pretty surprised at how completely clueless with respect to interpersonal relationships some of my colleagues and attending psychiatrists might be. Just because a psychiatrist specializes in the mind and human behavior does not mean they are paragons of the same. The same can be said of physicians in just about any specialty who engage in unhealthy behaviors despite their medical knowledge. “Do as I say, not as I do...”

 

[psychMDhopefully]

.

 

[psychMDhopefully]

Last I checked, psychiatry was the most liberal/progressive-containing specialty (something like 9 to 1 compared to gen surg 3 to 7). Ideologically, they're more likely to deem one of the most fundamental traditions of humanity as archaic and unneeded.

Best lifestyle though? Maybe not.

Sent from my SM-G955U1 using SDN mobile

Marriage is a very very recent tradition, is hasn't been around for most of human history. And honestly why is marriage needed? Why do you need the ceremony, paper, and to spend all that money? I think a lot of psychiatrist think the way I think, but their partners pressure them into marriage which doesn't end well.

 

[erg923]

Marriage is a very very recent tradition, is hasn't been around for most of human history. And honestly why is marriage needed? Why do you need the ceremony, paper, and to spend all that money? I think a lot of psychiatrist think the way I think, but their partners pressure them into marriage which doesn't end well.

1. It's Actually one of the sacraments for Catholics.

2. Children

3. Taxes

4. Weddings are fun

5. I like that my wife can't just up and quit the team on a whim. Comforting. Our kids might appreciate it a bit too.

 

[psychMDhopefully]

4. Weddings are fun

.

Even for the groom? I know a lot of women have been fantasizing about their weddings since they were kids, but I think most guys if they could would just skip it altogether.

 

[PsyDr]

1) Toilet paper is not necessary and relatively recent. Most people seem to enjoy having it.

2) Marriage isn’t necessary. Neither is sticking around when you impregnate a woman. I imagine there are moral and ethical arguments about why that would be suboptimal. We live in a society which considers marriage to be a norm in long term relationships by both convention and law.

 

[darknecrosforte]

Marriage is a very very recent tradition, is hasn't been around for most of human history. And honestly why is marriage needed? Why do you need the ceremony, paper, and to spend all that money? I think a lot of psychiatrist think the way I think, but their partners pressure them into marriage which doesn't end well.

Government education at its finest: It teaches that contracts don't exist without a tyrannical arbiter breathing it into existence.

In the ancient past, being the 10th woman/wife of a rich man was a better life than the only wife of a common man. You could also pass off mothering duties to the other wives to take breaks every now and then. Here comes a manifestation of the 80/20 rule where the top 20% of men get 80% of the women.

Religion and cultures soon developed a way to give those 80% of men who get NO mate under natural conditions at least a chance to get a woman. This system also increased the odds of a man believing that a child he was raising was indeed his (until paternity testing). The costs were restricting female choice (hypergamy) using shame or force, in many cases. This construct has existed for thousands of years. It isn't recent.

The ceremony, spending, and paper is certainly obsolete, but the act of declaring some kind of oath in front of people who you expect to hold you accountable if you break it is probably useful, at least for the sake of creating a stable environment for children.

 

[erg923]

Even for the groom? I know a lot of women have been fantasizing about their weddings since they were kids, but I think most guys if they could would just skip it altogether.

Dude...

 

[darknecrosforte]

Dude...

I'm triggered too... lul. Where is this person's humanism?

Can confirm that my wife did have these delusions also. When I itemized costs and got her to see how annoying the actual wedding planning/day would be, all I had to do was say "Would you rather have this or pocket most of the cash for whatever else you want?" It helped that we were still teens at the time.

 

[justfolks]

Even for the groom? I know a lot of women have been fantasizing about their weddings since they were kids, but I think most guys if they could would just skip it altogether.

Um, just a patient, but really, not all women buy into the wedding-industrial complex. Way to stereotype.

 

[psychMDhopefully]

Um, just a patient, but really, not all women buy into the wedding-industrial complex. Way to stereotype.

I didn't say all

 

[slappy]

Psychiatry does not have the best "lifetstyle" and I would question whether psychiatrists have the highest divorce rates (though we do have the highest suicide rates). That was based on a single study that is 20yrs old following up physicians over 20 years. The idea of "lifestyle" was anathema to docs of previous generations and plenty of psychiatrists worked long hours. Psychiatry was a specialty in terminal decline during the period that study was conducted with extremely high levels of disastisfaction due to poor reimbursement, declining lengths of stays, biologization of the field, and managed care. psychiatry is quite a different field today than it was in the 80s and 90s (for better or for worse) and satisfaction is higher today than it was in the 90s at least. Also bear in mind fewer marriages end in divorce today in general compared with 20 yrs ago.

If we assume that psychiatrists do have the highest rate of divorce (which I think is questionable), it may be that it is because psychiatrists are more physically present (if emotionally unavailable) and not in spite of it. In the days when marriages lasted longer it was also the era that wives rarely saw their husbands.

Sounds like you're over-investing in your patients. You're their doctor, not their friend. It may be time to step back and find a better balance without calling yourself emotionally unavailable for doing that.

 

[nitemagi]

What's the source for this divorce rate stat?

 

[tyrionlannister00]

I married the best woman in the world for me... Literally I believe there is no one quite like her. I do enjoy reading about all these negative Nancy's and the marriage haters out there... Good times. My wife and I are a team, conquering our little world, one step at a time. She also is an aspiring psychiatrist. We analyze the **** out of each other... I'm constantly reminding her I'm not her father, lol. To each their own.

As a side note, being able to diagnose and treat mental health illnesses does not equate to your own ability to choose and woo a worthy partner, nor does it help to maintain a marriage assuming you married a good match in the first place.

 

[masterofmonkeys]

I almost became a divorce statistic, but we broke it off before getting married. My lifestyle was definitely a factor. And it isn't particularly good. Then again, that's a choice I made. Also a lot of us end up with vicarious trauma and stress, which I think makes a normal domestic life more difficult. Tensions at home seem trivial and there's this sense of "WHY ARE WE FIGHTING ABOUT THIS GARBAGE WHEN MY PATIENT GOT RAPED/WILL DIE/HAD TO GO HOME TO THAT CRAPPY FAMILY/NEEDS NEW LUNGS"

Working in the peds hospital setting, I'm struck by the separation my general medical colleagues are able to maintain, that I just can't, not without being ineffective in MY role. that has to take a toll on a marriage if the spouse doesn't 'get it'. And, tbh, none of my SO's in the last 7 years have gotten it...

 

[Merely]

Why do you have a bad lifestyle as a psychiatrist? Are you just choosing to work a lot? Isn't it one of the best lifestyle specialties, particularly in residency?

 

[masterofmonkeys]

Why do you have a bad lifestyle as a psychiatrist? Are you just choosing to work a lot? Isn't it one of the best lifestyle specialties, particularly in residency?

Had to moonlight a stupid amount for medical costs (and before you make this political, socialized medicine wouldn't have changed that). As an attending, I have a demanding job, working with critically ill kids as peds C/L for a regional referral center. I only get allotted half a day for that. Sometimes it takes more than half a day. Most times it takes more than half a day. I do meds and therapy and staff support. One-man shop. Like I said though, this was my choice. I wanted this. *shrug*

 

[maundy]

Marriage is a very very recent tradition, is hasn't been around for most of human history. And honestly why is marriage needed? Why do you need the ceremony, paper, and to spend all that money? I think a lot of psychiatrist think the way I think, but their partners pressure them into marriage which doesn't end well.

That's not true unless you want to go back to Neanderthal lifestyles. Like 100000 years ago. For at least 5000 years, in fact during all of recorded history, marriage has been common.

Two people making a commitment to sustain and support each other and contribute to the functioning of society has existed for the entirety of modern civilization. The world we live in today is a consequence of marriage and social roles and commitment. You can observe this with data on single parent households and their inability to be fully integrated or function in society (as in a majority of cases). Society is built around the family unit.

Marriage is not a new thing, not at all. Unless you go to the macro scale of human existence.

Also why is marriage needed?

YOLO. Ceremonies celebrating life and the human creation of milestones in life to participate in and elevate to a level approaching divinity is what humanity is. Without that you're a wild animal with no worth or value. You're just a biological process.

 

[maundy]

honestly, call me nuts, but I would expect that psychiatrists would be just as likely as the next guy to possibly buy into the deluded dream that is marriage....

perhaps they are just better at recognizing when it's time to get out, and do so, rather than just lingering in denial and misery, and can face fear of change and loss, and just have better coping skills for all that?

basically I might not posit that being a psychiatrist magically makes one better at intimate relationships (like, the hardest task any human seems to set upon doing), but I like to think y'all excel in recognizing pathology, and coping skills for such

I think anyone can get caught up in a bad relationship, but not everyone seems to have the same skill in getting out

it doesn't have to be a negative reflection of the psychiatric profession if indeed they do have a higher divorce rate

What is deluded about marriage? It's a human construct that amplifies base human nature (emotional attachment, care giving, ownership, property rights) and therefore is naturally relatable to and has enabled the attainment of a higher social consciousness.

What's the point of getting a high paying job? Nice homes, cars and clothes fit in to that same delusion you are referring to.

A home is a place to sleep, a car is a car whether a Honda or a Maserati and a pair of $80 Levi's look like jeans, just like the $500 Hugo Boss jeans. And with mass expansion of the airline and holiday industries a cafe worker can afford a month long holiday to France.

The 'nice' things and striving for them are a part of that same delusion. It's about accepting and identifying with those facets of society that got us to where we are today.

That is the capitalist system and I have no idea why anyone is opposed to it. Esteeming brands and other cultural icons (such as wealth through work), and having people striving for them sustains the development of society. It stops it stagnating and essentially is what civilization is. Bettering oneself and society and taking pride in our achievements.

Celebrating marriage fits in there.

I can identify these icons of social success as artificial constructs. That doesn't mean that they are pointless things.

Like appreciating art. At the end of the day fine art is pointless and unwarranted. Until you see what it has done for your mind.

 

[WisNeuro]

That's not true unless you want to go back to Neanderthal lifestyles. Like 100000 years ago. For at least 5000 years, in fact during all of recorded history, marriage has been common.

Two people making a commitment to sustain and support each other and contribute to the functioning of society has existed for the entirety of modern civilization. The world we live in today is a consequence of marriage and social roles and commitment. You can observe this with data on single parent households and their inability to be fully integrated or function in society (as in a majority of cases). Society is built around the family unit.

Well, modern marriage is relatively new. For most of human existence it was a simple business transaction, or a political maneuver by the elites. And the single parent household stuff can largely be explained by SES and available resources, not quite as simple as the family unit.

 

[maundy]

Society is tailored for majority. Single parent households are a very new thing (unless you want to misrepresent the facts and say single parent households have always existed, which they have, as have widows).

Single parent households struggle financially and socially. There is a stigma.

Marriage was not a simple business transaction. Marriage was sanctified by the Church and G-d was a huge part of society and people's lives.

Well, modern marriage is relatively new. For most of human existence it was a simple business transaction, or a political maneuver by the elites. And the single parent household stuff can largely be explained by SES and available resources, not quite as simple as the family unit.

 

[NontradCA]

Society is tailored for majority. Single parent households are a very new thing (unless you want to misrepresent the facts and say single parent households have always existed, which they have, as have widows).

Single parent households struggle financially and socially. There is a stigma.

Marriage was not a simple business transaction. Marriage was sanctified by the Church and G-d was a huge part of society and people's lives.

Single parent householders who are women have stigma and financial struggle. Not men. There is a large amount of data on this. It’s also easier for men to remarry. The only reason they’re a newer thing is because women have decided they want to be equal partners in a relationship. We’ll get there. Until then marriage is just about control and status for men. The societal pressure to get married is not a good thing, for women at least.

 

[maundy]

In the context of what the intended implication of my post was, I think you have misinterpreted me.

Single parent householders who are women have stigma and financial struggle. Not men. There is a large amount of data on this. It’s also easier for men to remarry. The only reason they’re a newer thing is because women have decided they want to be equal partners in a relationship. We’ll get there. Until then marriage is just about control and status for men. The societal pressure to get married is not a good thing, for women at least.

 

[maundy]

If you love someone so much you want to spend the rest of your life with them, throwing a huge party and wearing one off fancy clothes to show how amazing you think they are is hardly oppression.

 

[WisNeuro]

Society is tailored for majority. Single parent households are a very new thing (unless you want to misrepresent the facts and say single parent households have always existed, which they have, as have widows).

Single parent households struggle financially and socially. There is a stigma.

Marriage was not a simple business transaction. Marriage was sanctified by the Church and G-d was a huge part of society and people's lives.

Some struggle, not all. Resources explain a great deal of variance. The sanctity of marriage was just an extension of the business contract. It always was a simple transactional compact until recently. This is just history, plain and simple.

 

[maundy]

Some struggle, not all. Resources explain a great deal of variance. The sanctity of marriage was just an extension of the business contract. It always was a simple transactional compact until recently. This is just history, plain and simple.

Marriage was never a business deal. I don't know why this has become political. It's a celebration and formalization of two people being in love.

I don't know why you would want to create a narrative designed to take that away from people.

 

[Mad Jack]

1. It's Actually one of the sacraments for Catholics.

2. Children

3. Taxes

4. Weddings are fun

5. I like that my wife can't just up and quit the team on a whim. Comforting. Our kids might appreciate it a bit too.

If you're not Catholic, don't plan on having children, and are in the category where marriage is a penalty to your taxes, it really only makes sense from the "they can't just up and run away" standpoint. But if I need a legal agreement to keep my partner from running off, is it that good of a relationship to begin with?

 

[DisorderedDoc417]

Marriage is a very very recent tradition, is hasn't been around for most of human history. And honestly why is marriage needed? Why do you need the ceremony, paper, and to spend all that money? I think a lot of psychiatrist think the way I think, but their partners pressure them into marriage which doesn't end well.

Marriage is a “very very recent tradition”, and so why bother? Yikes, hate to think about how you feel about, well..... pretty much all of psychiatry. Just because amoebas didn’t form institutionalized unions with one another doesn’t make it new XD

 

[Mad Jack]

That's not true unless you want to go back to Neanderthal lifestyles. Like 100000 years ago. For at least 5000 years, in fact during all of recorded history, marriage has been common.

Two people making a commitment to sustain and support each other and contribute to the functioning of society has existed for the entirety of modern civilization. The world we live in today is a consequence of marriage and social roles and commitment. You can observe this with data on single parent households and their inability to be fully integrated or function in society (as in a majority of cases). Society is built around the family unit.

Marriage is not a new thing, not at all. Unless you go to the macro scale of human existence.

Also why is marriage needed?

YOLO. Ceremonies celebrating life and the human creation of milestones in life to participate in and elevate to a level approaching divinity is what humanity is. Without that you're a wild animal with no worth or value. You're just a biological process.

Recorded history is hardly a blip in the timeline of the human species

 

[DisorderedDoc417]

Recorded history is hardly a blip in the timeline of the human species

Human being existence is hardly a blip in the timeline of the universe. See what I did there?

 

[Mad Jack]

Marriage is a “very very recent tradition”, and so why bother? Yikes, hate to think about how you feel about, well..... pretty much all of psychiatry. Just because amoebas didn’t form institutionalized unions with one another doesn’t make it new XD

That's still hardly an argument for marriage. Is it a functional and practical institution? I would argue it was, until our lifespans basically more than doubled. It's one thing to say you'll be with someone forever when your life expectancy is 38, a totally different thing when it's 78. The idea of marriage was conceived when life was short, simple, and uncomplicated. The idea that it is a given in the modern world is rather questionable.

 

[vernhart]

Marriage was never a business deal. I don't know why this has become political. It's a celebration and formalization of two people being in love.

I don't know why you would want to create a narrative designed to take that away from people.

That is a nice sentiment, but just isn't true of history.

 

[maundy]

Recorded history is hardly a blip in the timeline of the human species

And if your auntie had balls she'd be your uncle.

You are refusing to address the points raised in the post and we don't need to discuss this further.

 

[Mad Jack]

And if your auntie had balls she'd be your uncle.

You are refusing to address the points raised in the post and we don't need to discuss this further.

Human being existence is hardly a blip in the timeline of the universe. See what I did there?

I addressed things more directly in my follow-up post.