Differences between work hours due to religion

[toysRus]

Hello! I am looking for advice to see if it makes sense that I think this is unfair or if I should just suck it up.

I am currently in residency. There are a few residents who cannot be on call on Friday and Saturday due to their religion so they end up taking less weekend call than the other residents. Also, they leave 1-2 hours early on Fridays (meaning others have to stay later as well to cover the work they would have done) and these hours are not made up other times. Seems unfair that they work less hours for the same salary.

Thank you for your advice.

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[HemeOncHopeful19]

(In all seriousness, I would be very frustrated myself but if your program is supportive of such a thing then I’m not sure there would be a great solution.)

 

[socialcriticism]

sounds like you've got a new religion!

 

[deleted480308]

Hello! I am looking for advice to see if it makes sense that I think this is unfair or if I should just suck it up.

I am currently in residency. There are a few residents who cannot be on call on Friday and Saturday due to their religion so they end up taking less weekend call than the other residents. Also, they leave 1-2 hours early on Fridays (meaning others have to stay later as well to cover the work they would have done) and these hours are not made up other times. Seems unfair that they work less hours for the same salary.

Thank you for your advice.

The world of accommodations is explicitly unfair.

 

[hmockingbird]

I think it would be fair for an accommodation to be that they make up the hours another time. My residency did not routinely accommodate for Sabbath but would allow you to take different holidays instead of having Christmas off. I would frequently trade with observant Jewish co-residents so we could split up the weekend though (eg I’d work every Saturday and they’d work every Sunday), which was nice when you were on stacked inpatient blocks and might otherwise have a period without weekend days off.

 

[killerleaf]

While I did not have to face this with residents, we did with faculty. However, it was handled like hmockingbird said: the call got split up. It actually created a change in how weekend call was handled, it was broke into 12 hours shifts instead of the former 24hrs. That way, our observant physician would pick up Saturday and Sunday pm shifts, everybody was fine. Also they took Christmas holiday call, freeing up someone.

My point being that it can be done, it takes a little bit of adjusting, but in the long run, it works out. Sometimes you have to be a little creative (splitting shifts) but it can be done.

 

[deleted367183]

I am Sabbath observant in general, but for residency I just go in and work on Saturdays because there is no reasonable way around it (no way to substitute Sundays or similar). I can see why an observant person could end up working fewer weekend days, which is unfair. But IMO they ought to be scheduled in such a way that they're working the same number of hours, however distributed, as everyone else. If they're not, then IMO that's the fault of the person who makes the schedule, not of the residents themselves.

As an aside, there exist residencies that are specifically designed for sabbath observance. I personally feel that people strict in their observance should go to these programs instead of imposing on people, but everyone chooses their own path.

 

[yeasports]

I would feel personally it is unfair,
Could call start/end at 12midnight sunday a.m? You could split the long call fri+ sat into two shifts. I wouldn't mind a friday overnight only or sat am to midnight only call if I had the next day off to recover.

 

[evilbooyaa]

Hello! I am looking for advice to see if it makes sense that I think this is unfair or if I should just suck it up.

I am currently in residency. There are a few residents who cannot be on call on Friday and Saturday due to their religion so they end up taking less weekend call than the other residents. Also, they leave 1-2 hours early on Fridays (meaning others have to stay later as well to cover the work they would have done) and these hours are not made up other times. Seems unfair that they work less hours for the same salary.

Thank you for your advice.

The bolded is where **** does not fly and I agree with you that it is unfair. I would consider going to leadership if you feel it's safe (is leadership also the same religion as these residents?) to fix the bolded (and only the bolded). Everything else is an accomodation - while I may not personally agree with it, it's not up to me.

 

[Crayola227]

Life isn't fair.

The quicker you realize this and suck it up the better off you'll be.

 

[NotAProgDirector]

I am surprised. Programs that have tracks that cater to these requirements usually balance the schedule with more Sunday calls. I am also surprised that the residents involved don't try to "make it right" themselves.

 

[StIGMA]

this is something that your ACGME DIO (designated institutional official) should know about. This is generally someone high up in your GME office and you should be able to find out who this is.

However if they know and still don’t care (assuming your PD doesn’t care as they are actively allowing this to happen) there’s not much to be done.

 

[Apollyon]

This isn't anything new. When I was a med student, there was a "Sabbath track" that was in the Match for the peds program.

Irony is that, in the "real world", people gotta work. In Israel, for an example, fire and police don't get the day off on Saturday. The military doesn't stand down on the Sabbath. Jewish women are going to go into labor on the Sabbath.

"Time and tide waits for no man."

 

[Dr.LeoSpaceman]

When I was a med student

I thought you were going to say that as the med student, you were the designated "button pusher/light switch operator".

 

[akwho]

Need to balance it out right away. If you have a religious holiday, you get to make it up by being on call the next government holiday. If you want every Saturday off, you work every Sunday. Schedule should be equal as possible in residency.

 

[Apollyon]

I thought you were going to say that as the med student, you were the designated "button pusher/light switch operator".

No, I solidly rejected doing that. My hospital in Brooklyn had a "Sabbath service" elevator, which, from dusk Friday to dusk Saturday, stopped at every floor.

That reminds me of a story: when I was on OB/GYN, this orthodox (maybe she was Hasidic, even) woman came in for an emergent D&C. This was Friday night. The OB was Jewish, by the way. After they were done, and the pt was being discharged, the husband refused to do ANYTHING (like, help her with her coat, oak the wheelchair, open the door), because "it's the Sabbath". I thought to myself, "well, someone's gotta do it, and it's beyond presumptuous to EXPECT Gentiles to do it". But, one of the other med students, from another school, did do all of that. I don't know how he got roped into doing it. Coincidentally, that other student was black. Not a good look.

If I can't do X because it's the Sabbath, but I pay you to do X, because I need it done, that seems really specious to me. I would like to hear what a rabbi says about that.

 

[deleted480308]

No, I solidly rejected doing that. My hospital in Brooklyn had a "Sabbath service" elevator, which, from dusk Friday to dusk Saturday, stopped at every floor.

That reminds me of a story: when I was on OB/GYN, this orthodox (maybe she was Hasidic, even) woman came in for an emergent D&C. This was Friday night. The OB was Jewish, by the way. After they were done, and the pt was being discharged, the husband refused to do ANYTHING (like, help her with her coat, oak the wheelchair, open the door), because "it's the Sabbath". I thought to myself, "well, someone's gotta do it, and it's beyond presumptuous to EXPECT Gentiles to do it". But, one of the other med students, from another school, did do all of that. I don't know how he got roped into doing it. Coincidentally, that other student was black. Not a good look.

If I can't do X because it's the Sabbath, but I pay you to do X, because I need it done, that seems really specious to me. I would like to hear what a rabbi says about that.

A messianic jew would say Jesus answered it already, if the ox falls in a hole you gotta get that thing out

 

[Apollyon]

A messianic jew would say Jesus answered it already, if the ox falls in a hole you gotta get that thing out

Isn't a Messianic Jew a Christian, though? Certainly, the Orthodox, Conservative, and Reform movements vastly outnumber them, and are much more representative of halakha.

 

[deleted480308]

Isn't a Messianic Jew a Christian, though? Certainly, the Orthodox, Conservative, and Reform movements vastly outnumber them, and are much more representative of halakha.

Agreed on numbers. The messianic jews certainly claim to be jewish, anecdotally the non-messianic jews I’ve spoken to don’t agree

 

[Mass Effect]

Hello! I am looking for advice to see if it makes sense that I think this is unfair or if I should just suck it up.

I am currently in residency. There are a few residents who cannot be on call on Friday and Saturday due to their religion so they end up taking less weekend call than the other residents. Also, they leave 1-2 hours early on Fridays (meaning others have to stay later as well to cover the work they would have done) and these hours are not made up other times. Seems unfair that they work less hours for the same salary.

Thank you for your advice.

Not okay. These residents should be working every Sunday and holidays to make up the hours. Accommodations don't mean you work less. If you can't work one holiday, you work another. If you can't work overnight, you work days in place of others. There should be a balance, both for education and for morale.

 

[mvenus929]

I would feel personally it is unfair,
Could call start/end at 12midnight sunday a.m? You could split the long call fri+ sat into two shifts. I wouldn't mind a friday overnight only or sat am to midnight only call if I had the next day off to recover.

Sabbath is typically dusk to dusk, not midnight to midnight, so splitting the shifts at midnight wouldn't work very well. And, of course, the timing varies based on the time of year (need to be off earlier on Friday in winter time than in the summer).

OP, we had a handful of observant Jewish people in my residency program (though not while I was resident). They followed the guidance that they were working to save a life on Saturdays, and thus working was permitted (as this goes above all the other commandments). But I believe the programs in which this is built into the schedule just have those people work more Sundays in exchange for having Saturdays off.

 

[BicepsTriceps]

All residents, regardless of religion should work any shift required, period.

If you think your God disapproves of you because you treated patients on Friday or Saturday then you need to rethink your believes.

 

[DeadCactus]

All residents, regardless of religion should work any shift required, period.

If you think your God disapproves of you because you treated patients on Friday or Saturday then you need to rethink your believes.

Residents and attendings make schedule requests for any number of reasons. This is no less valid than the constant requests to go to some kid's stupid athletic event, an arbitrarily timed celebration of rotating around the sun, or being mad that about working whatever subverted pagan holiday instead of celebrating consumerism with family. Hell, weekends have no inherent significance outside of the arbitrary social ones we've ascribed to them based on social norms and how they impact our personal life. The issue here is of carrying a fair load, not an individual's personal priorities.

 

[michaelrack]

Back in the day, residents weren't allowed to have personal priorities.... when you were working 100 + hour weeks sleep was the only priority.
Fellowship can be different, depending on the specialty. One day in 2003 I left a sleep medicine clinic early to be at my daughter's birth upstairs

 

[calvnandhobbs68]

Residents and attendings make schedule requests for any number of reasons. This is no less valid than the constant requests to go to some kid's stupid athletic event, an arbitrarily timed celebration of rotating around the sun, or being mad that about working whatever subverted pagan holiday instead of celebrating consumerism with family. Hell, weekends have no inherent significance outside of the arbitrary social ones we've ascribed to them based on social norms and how they impact our personal life. The issue here is of carrying a fair load, not an individual's personal priorities.

Right the problem is carrying a fair load. If being off EVERY Saturday precludes you from carrying a fair load because of the way scheduling works out...sounds like they should be working some Saturdays. Nobody gets off for their kids baseball game every Saturday of the year or has Christmas every week.

As noted above, hospitals don’t shut down in Israel on Saturdays. I feel like these residents are kinda sorta bending this rule to their favor, especially if it’s not being made up anywhere else in terms of hours.

 

[AMEHigh]

Have you at least had a conversation with your chief resident about this? I would start there to get a sense of why the schedule is unfair.

During residency we had people who followed the Sabbath. It didn’t affect anyone having to stay later on Fridays because we always had a swing shift person.

In addition, the people that always had Saturdays off were always accommodating and volunteered for Sunday’s and other non-Jewish holidays. It sounds like your co-residents aren’t very considerate in general.

So there are definitely ways to split up call even dealing with religious and other requests that make it equitable for everyone.

 

[sharkbyte]

Life isn't fair.

The quicker you realize this and suck it up the better off you'll be.

Dumb mindset

 

[RangerBob]

Dumb mindset

But it is true. There’s a reason someone wrote the serenity prayer-there are just some things we need to deal with and learning to be happy despite them is the key.

I’m not saying that’s the case here with the OP, but it’s still a fairly good lesson in life. Stuff happens. Happy people are happy despite the crap they have to deal with. Focusing on the crap (which I am myself often guilty of) just takes more time and energy away from being content in life-unless that energy is actually bringing about change, it’s just not worth it.

 

[Private_MD]

I am surprised. Programs that have tracks that cater to these requirements usually balance the schedule with more Sunday calls. I am also surprised that the residents involved don't try to "make it right" themselves.

Unfortunately this is not uncommon in regards to unfairness. At my former residency program, for example, some of us would get far more holidays to work than others - some of us would work rotations that didn't get the days off (IM wards) while others got elective/outpatient rotations for most holidays - when I said something I was seen as "unreasonable." In all reality, i fsomeone gets off for a religious holiday (and being a religious person I don't object to this) however that time should be made up. Say a resident is Jewish and takes Saturdays off - well perhaps then they can cover all Christmas holidays since they don't celebrate them. Stuff like that. Or take more of the Sunday calls. This idea that life is not fair and to suck it up (not saying you are saying this btw) is not good - one of the reason there is so much burn out in medicine.

 

[killerleaf]

There were several times that residents would come to the PD and say that the call schedule was unfair, that they had more holidays/weekend/just flat out more than other others. I was the one tasked with pulling all of the records (that we kept meticulously). Each time, with one exception, we were able to show that they had just as many holidays/weekend/just flat out as their classmates. Emphasis on Class, as the burden of call decreased as they progressed in the program. (4th years did not take as much call as 3rd years, who did not have as much as 2nd years). The one exception was someone who had taken maternity leave. We showed that actually, at that point, she had taken quite a bit less than anyone else. However, the future schedule was designed to get her "caught up" with the rest of the class. No, it was not excessive and did not break rules. We were very careful with that.

All of that to say, perception is sometimes skewed.

 

[sharkbyte]

I

But it is true. There’s a reason someone wrote the serenity prayer-there are just some things we need to deal with and learning to be happy despite them is the key.

I’m not saying that’s the case here with the OP, but it’s still a fairly good lesson in life. Stuff happens. Happy people are happy despite the crap they have to deal with. Focusing on the crap (which I am myself often guilty of) just takes more time and energy away from being content in life-unless that energy is actually bringing about change, it’s just not worth it.

I more so meant that its kind of a silly mindset in this case. The schedules and coverage should be evened out. If people are getting exemptions or accommodations for religious reasons, they should have to make it up at other times.

 

[mvenus929]

There were several times that residents would come to the PD and say that the call schedule was unfair, that they had more holidays/weekend/just flat out more than other others. I was the one tasked with pulling all of the records (that we kept meticulously). Each time, with one exception, we were able to show that they had just as many holidays/weekend/just flat out as their classmates. Emphasis on Class, as the burden of call decreased as they progressed in the program. (4th years did not take as much call as 3rd years, who did not have as much as 2nd years). The one exception was someone who had taken maternity leave. We showed that actually, at that point, she had taken quite a bit less than anyone else. However, the future schedule was designed to get her "caught up" with the rest of the class. No, it was not excessive and did not break rules. We were very careful with that.

All of that to say, perception is sometimes skewed.

We had this a couple times when we were chiefs. The residents would try to say that x person was taking more call than everyone else, and we'd just pull out our spreadsheets where we documented the distribution of calls and say 'nope, it's just about even, plus or minus 1-2 calls'.

 

[toysRus]

Thank you for everyone's advice! Although frustrating I don't think anything can be done about leaving early on Friday's and not making up the hours because this is the way it has always been. I did tally up the calls though and it looks like some residents had 3-4 weekend calls while others had 7-9. I decided I am going to bring up the tally sheet to my chief resident. Thank you again for everyone's ideas!

 

[Private_MD]

Thank you for everyone's advice! Although frustrating I don't think anything can be done about leaving early on Friday's and not making up the hours because this is the way it has always been. I did tally up the calls though and it looks like some residents had 3-4 weekend calls while others had 7-9. I decided I am going to bring up the tally sheet to my chief resident. Thank you again for everyone's ideas!

Do it! i am all up for justice.