Did you/Do you have any realistic concerns about operating when you're older?

[dr.0ne]

Yes yes, do what you love and nothing else will matter.

Well as an M2 I'm really trying to make the best decision for myself and no matter how much I think I'll love surgery, how much will I love it when I'm 55/60--when my dexterity and hand-eye coordination aren't what they used to be.

Do any of you have concerns about how long you can practice as a surgeon whereas nonprocedural specialty physicians can practice longer without being held back by age?

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[doc05]

Yes yes, do what you love and nothing else will matter.

Well as an M2 I'm really trying to make the best decision for myself and no matter how much I think I'll love surgery, how much will I love it when I'm 55/60--when my dexterity and hand-eye coordination aren't what they used to be.

Do any of you have concerns about how long you can practice as a surgeon whereas nonprocedural specialty physicians can practice longer without being held back by age?

You shouldn't have issues with dexterity or hand eye coordination at 55-60. I'd be more concerned about neck and back pain, and just getting bored with the cases.

 

[Trauma Surgeon]

Far from that age (will turn 40 this year)…
But already am feeling that it is not just bouncing back from operating a complex case in middle of night (usually these cases "older, multi-sick, perforation, etc. do seek healthcare in middle of night ).
Bored, I don't know, since easy cases goes to residents/junior attendings and the heavy lifting is done by seniors (in academics), so it is always a challenge...

 

[Dares Dareson]

So I'll be 41 when I finish gen surg residency...bad idea?

 

[dr.0ne]

Far from that age (will turn 40 this year)…
But already am feeling that it is not just bouncing back from operating a complex case in middle of night (usually these cases "older, multi-sick, perforation, etc. do seek healthcare in middle of night ).
Bored, I don't know, since easy cases goes to residents/junior attendings and the heavy lifting is done by seniors (in academics), so it is always a challenge...

Thanks for the insight, doc--hoping you can indulge me with another question of mine. If/when surgeons retire early enough to coast on what they've made in their careers compared to internists/specialists who may practice for another 5-10 years longer, do you think surgeons have made or less financially?

 

[OrthoTraumaMD]

Yes yes, do what you love and nothing else will matter.

Well as an M2 I'm really trying to make the best decision for myself and no matter how much I think I'll love surgery, how much will I love it when I'm 55/60--when my dexterity and hand-eye coordination aren't what they used to be.

Do any of you have concerns about how long you can practice as a surgeon whereas nonprocedural specialty physicians can practice longer without being held back by age?

Lol men are at their prime in their 50s. The best and most skillful surgeons I know are that age. Worry when you’re 75.


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[doc05]

So I'll be 41 when I finish gen surg residency...bad idea?

Keep in mind it takes several years practicing after you're done w residency before you really know what you're doing. Do you want or reach this point at age 50?

It's a personal decision. I know I wouldn't.

 

[doc05]

Thanks for the insight, doc--hoping you can indulge me with another question of mine. If/when surgeons retire early enough to coast on what they've made in their careers compared to internists/specialists who may practice for another 5-10 years longer, do you think surgeons have made or less financially?

Does it really matter?

 

[dpmd]

I have seen septuagenarians still in the OR as primary surgeons (and a couple guys still assisting in their 80s). I am not worried about being able to still do it if I love it, and I make enough that I am almost at the number where I could just walk away if I don't want to do it anymore (projected date is by age 50, maybe 45 if I keep being frugal)

 

[vhawk]

Lol men are at their prime in their 50s. The best and most skillful surgeons I know are that age. Worry when you’re 75.


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Depends on what you mean by best. The "wisdom/experience" curve may peak at that time but the dexterity, visual acuity and mental processing curve peaks in the mid 20s. Depending on how you weight the relative contributions of those two, it's hard to say when your true "peak" is but if we could find a way to shorten training I'd put my money on the 40 yo over the 55 yo

 

[OrthoTraumaMD]

Depends on what you mean by best. The "wisdom/experience" curve may peak at that time but the dexterity, visual acuity and mental processing curve peaks in the mid 20s. Depending on how you weight the relative contributions of those two, it's hard to say when your true "peak" is but if we could find a way to shorten training I'd put my money on the 40 yo over the 55 yo

Not in my field. The most dexterous ortho surgeons, the fastest, with the best xrays, have all been in their 50s, every single one without exception...and I’ve met a lot of them. It takes time to hone your craft in trauma, and we literally tell younger attendings and residents “don’t try it the way X did it, you don’t have the skills or the “hands” for it yet.”


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[DoctwoB]

Depends on what you mean by best. The "wisdom/experience" curve may peak at that time but the dexterity, visual acuity and mental processing curve peaks in the mid 20s. Depending on how you weight the relative contributions of those two, it's hard to say when your true "peak" is but if we could find a way to shorten training I'd put my money on the 40 yo over the 55 yo

Theoretical dexterity may peak in the 20s, but in practice surgical dexterity comes more from practice/technique which is honed over many years. There are physical limits, like a 45 year old baseball player physically can't keep up with a peak 20 year old despite more practice/experience, but those limits generally don't apply much in the OR. In practice the slickest surgeons I've seen are generally in their late 40s and 50s.

 

[vhawk]

I mean, its been studied

 

[dr.0ne]

This is a great discussion, docs. Thanks for your replies. I was 3 years out of undergrad when I applied (so nothing incredibly late). I'm not a non-trad by any means but just trying to get an idea of what my life would look like down the line.

 

[DBC03]

How hard is it to go into surgery subspecialties when you are significantly older (like going into residency at 40)?


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[doc05]

How hard is it to go into surgery subspecialties when you are significantly older (like going into residency at 40)?


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You probably won't face any discrimination. Unless you look old.

More importantly, figure 5-7 years of residency, then about 5-10 years before you're set as an attending. That's age 50-55 when you finally are established in practice and know what you're doing. Is this what you want?

 

[vhawk]

How hard is it to go into surgery subspecialties when you are significantly older (like going into residency at 40)?


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Hard how? I dont think that anyone will go out of their way to obstruct you or discourage you and I think you will have just as good of a chance as anyone else. Probably better since you will have some life experience that you can talk about and spin into a unique advantage, which it probably actually is.

If you mean how hard in terms of your aching joints and enlarged prostate, well I'm only 35 so I cant help ya there

 

[vhawk]

You probably won't face any discrimination. Unless you look old.

More importantly, figure 5-7 years of residency, then about 5-10 years before you're set as an attending. That's age 50-55 when you finally are established in practice and know what you're doing. Is this what you want?

Beat me by 1 minute!

 

[Dares Dareson]

Well, I'm going to be 36 when I start my general surgery residency. I'll let you all know how it turns out.

 

[DBC03]

You probably won't face any discrimination. Unless you look old.

More importantly, figure 5-7 years of residency, then about 5-10 years before you're set as an attending. That's age 50-55 when you finally are established in practice and know what you're doing. Is this what you want?

That’s been on my mind - I’m leaning toward ophtho as it can be more surgical or more clinical. But I would rather put in a few extra years and do what I really want. I didn’t wait this long to give up now.


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[HighPriest]

I think there's a balance to be had here. I do think there is loss of dexterity as you get older, but at the same time there is a gain in skill and understanding. That can, in many cases, make up for a loss of dexterity. You can do a triple lindi of the diving board, but sometimes just diving in will give you the same result. And often times you don't realize that until you're tired of doing triple lindis.

What I've seen in my specialty more frequently is that as people become older, they have trouble learning new technology. This is, I'm sure, more true in private practice or rural areas than it is in academics. I think that is simply a factor of how far away from training they are, but I also think that there are some hand-eye coordination issues. This isn't usually happening in their 50s, however. More like 60s or beyond. I think they're mostly still very good in their 50s, and there's a balance between coordination and learned skill.

All that being said, I know guys who had to stop practicing 20 years before they wanted due to sudden loss of vision, injuries, even one metastatic melanoma. So, you know, don't get too caught up on age. Just decide if it's something you want to do, and whether its going to be a good or a bad financial decision for you. The only thing, in my book, that you don't want to do is saddle yourself with $400,000 of debt that you'll never pay off because you won't be in practice long enough to ditch the debt AND save for retirement.

 

[TypeADissection]

You probably won't face any discrimination. Unless you look old.

Hahaha. This reminds me of that line in Ocean's Twelve when George Clooney goes to Don Cheadle and says, "Do I look 50 to you?" Don Chealde, "Yeah...from like the neck up..."