Did not match, contemplating Radiology

This forum made possible through the generous support of SDN members, donors, and sponsors. Thank you.
B

bunye

New Member
Joined
Feb 6, 2021
Messages
8
Reaction score
5
M4 here who did not match a competitive surgical field. Currently looking for preliminary positions next year. I am seriously considering trying to SOAP into a radiology position or trying to find a PGY-2 (R1) position next year. How does the latter work? Already know SOAPing is a ****show. Do I get to participate in next year’s match and apply to advanced positions and start directly in R1 or do I need to find some vacant R1 spot and apply to it? How likely is this scenario? Thanks!
Members don't see this ad.
 
Last edited:
bunye said:
M4 here who did not match a competitive surgical field. Currently looking for preliminary positions next year. I am seriously considering trying to SOAP into a radiology position or trying to find a PGY-2 (R1) position next year. Already know SOAPing is a ****show. How does the latter work? Do I get to participate in next year’s match and apply to advanced positions and start directly in R1 or do I need to find some vacant R1 spot and apply to it? How likely is this scenario? Thanks!
Click to expand...
The Monday of Match Week, you will receive an email informing you that you are partially matched -- matched to a PGY-1 position but no advanced program. ERAS will then open a few hours later and you will submit your application to radiology programs that are offering a PGY-2 position starting 2022. They will invite you to interview. They will put out offers, which you can reject or accept, and this repeats for a few rounds until Thursday of Match week. There will probably be 10-20 positions available in DR based on the past two years SOAP data.
 
  • Like
Reactions: 1 user
Cognovi said:
The Monday of Match Week, you will receive an email informing you that you are partially matched -- matched to a PGY-1 position but no advanced program. ERAS will then open a few hours later and you will submit your application to radiology programs that are offering a PGY-2 position starting 2022. They will invite you to interview. They will put out offers, which you can reject or accept, and this repeats for a few rounds until Thursday of Match week. There will probably be 10-20 positions available in DR based on the past two years SOAP data.
Click to expand...
Thanks! As a prelim can I only apply to vacant R1 spots or can I apply advanced through the match and start right away?
 
Members don't see this ad :)
Cognovi said:
The Monday of Match Week, you will receive an email informing you that you are partially matched -- matched to a PGY-1 position but no advanced program. ERAS will then open a few hours later and you will submit your application to radiology programs that are offering a PGY-2 position starting 2022. They will invite you to interview. They will put out offers, which you can reject or accept, and this repeats for a few rounds until Thursday of Match week. There will probably be 10-20 positions available in DR based on the past two years SOAP data.
Click to expand...
There may be more SOAP positions available this year due to applicants hoarding virtual interviews and programs having more unfilled spots.
 
odyssey2 said:
There may be more SOAP positions available this year due to applicants hoarding virtual interviews and programs having more unfilled spots.
Click to expand...
I hope. Urology had absolutely none so my hopes aren’t very high.
 
Urology’s a lot more competitive than rads so I wouldn’t lose hope
 
  • Like
Reactions: 1 user
bunye said:
Thanks! As a prelim can I only apply to vacant R1 spots or can I apply advanced through the match and start right away?
Click to expand...
Applying advanced means you are not starting right away. Applying categorical or physician means you start the same year.
 
Cognovi said:
Applying advanced means you are not starting right away. Applying categorical or physician means you start the same year.
Click to expand...
So if I match advanced as a prelim I’d need to repeat prelim year?
 
bunye said:
So if I match advanced as a prelim I’d need to repeat prelim year?
Click to expand...
No. If I'm understanding correctly:
For rads, you can do either prelim med or surgery. If you already did a prelim year, you will not have to repeat. Categorical rads positions are not common.
 
Members don't see this ad :)
You can either graduate and SOAP into a prelim/TY and apply for advanced positions starting in 2023 or delay graduation/graduate, do some research, apply for prelim/TY and Rads positions. I would do the latter bc you will not be able to establish interest in the field if you march off to a prelim/TY whereas if you just did research/shadowing/electives from now until September you will have really good radiology letters and possibly a completed project or two.

There may be some Radiology programs who are SOAPing but likely places you dont want to go to for various reasons. If you wait to re-apply you will have your pick of top programs if you show interest in Radiology cause if you were a competitive urology applicant you would be a super competitive DR applicant if you show that you're not using it as a backup via research and letters.
 
RadsRocks! said:
You can either graduate and SOAP into a prelim/TY and apply for advanced positions starting in 2023 or delay graduation/graduate, do some research, apply for prelim/TY and Rads positions. I would do the latter bc you will not be able to establish interest in the field if you march off to a prelim/TY whereas if you just did research/shadowing/electives from now until September you will have really good radiology letters and possibly a completed project or two.

There may be some Radiology programs who are SOAPing but likely places you dont want to go to for various reasons. If you wait to re-apply you will have your pick of top programs if you show interest in Radiology cause if you were a competitive urology applicant you would be a super competitive DR applicant if you show that you're not using it as a backup via research and letters.
Click to expand...
Exactly, so if I apply next year as a prelim I’d have to take the year off doing something else until 2023. The only way to start in 2022 would be matching a prelim and soaping the advanced spot or finding a vacant R1 spot? Seems uphill I agree. Thanks!
 
CyrusHabs7695 said:
Anybody have a list of places that offer this? Only one Ive come across is USF
Click to expand...
Christiana Care in DE, Mayo Clinic Jacksonville in FL. Other programs like Brown and Hofstra Northshore/LIJ are pseudo-categorical, where prelim IM is almost guaranteed to those who match rads.
 
  • Like
Reactions: 1 users
Your options as an MS4:

Match a prelim year (to start 2021) and advanced spot (to start R1 2022)
Match a prelim year (to start 2021) and soap advanced spot (to start R1 2022)
Soap a prelim year (to start 2021) and match advanced spot (to start R1 2022)
Soap a prelim year (to start 2021) and soap advanced spot (to start R1 2022)
Match a categorical (prelim included to start 2021 with R1 starting 2022)
Soap a categorical (prelim included to start 2021 with R1 starting 2022)
Match a prelim year (to start 2021) and no advanced
Soap a prelim year (to start 2021) and no advanced

Your options as a prelim with no advanced or categorical after soap:
Apply through the match for prelim (to start 2022), advanced (to start 2023), or categorical (to start 2022 prelim and R1 2023)
Apply through the match for physician only (R1 to start 2022)
Note upon successful completion of prelim during 2021, you no longer need a prelim for 2022 since the first prelim counts, but you may want this to stay employed or continue getting pslf. I know people who matched physician only and people who matched advanced and did another prelim. It just depends on what you get and want that year.
Look for physician only openings outside of the match and match for 2022 start.
 
  • Like
Reactions: 3 users
PhysMatMan said:
Your options as an MS4:

Match a prelim year (to start 2021) and advanced spot (to start R1 2022)
Match a prelim year (to start 2021) and soap advanced spot (to start R1 2022)
Soap a prelim year (to start 2021) and match advanced spot (to start R1 2022)
Soap a prelim year (to start 2021) and soap advanced spot (to start R1 2022)
Match a categorical (prelim included to start 2021 with R1 starting 2022)
Soap a categorical (prelim included to start 2021 with R1 starting 2022)
Match a prelim year (to start 2021) and no advanced
Soap a prelim year (to start 2021) and no advanced

Your options as a prelim with no advanced or categorical after soap:
Apply through the match for prelim (to start 2022), advanced (to start 2023), or categorical (to start 2022 prelim and R1 2023)
Apply through the match for physician only (R1 to start 2022)
Note upon successful completion of prelim during 2021, you no longer need a prelim for 2022 since the first prelim counts, but you may want this to stay employed or continue getting pslf. I know people who matched physician only and people who matched advanced and did another prelim. It just depends on what you get and want that year.
Look for physician only openings outside of the match and match for 2022 start.
Click to expand...
Best explanation yet! I’m currently applying prelim spots and getting ready to soap a spot but its highly probable that I start 2021 with a prelim and no rads spot. This is where the physician match or off match comes to play. Thank you!
 
if you do that, consider that you won't be as strong as a radiology applicant potentially vs if you used until ERAS opened back up to do rads research, get LOR, etc until that point. Also your prelim/TY that you match to may not be that open to you taking time off to interview at programs further limiting you and there is no guarantee that physician spots open up.
 
RadsRocks! said:
if you do that, consider that you won't be as strong as a radiology applicant potentially vs if you used until ERAS opened back up to do rads research, get LOR, etc until that point. Also your prelim/TY that you match to may not be that open to you taking time off to interview at programs further limiting you and there is no guarantee that physician spots open up.
Click to expand...
Thank you! Everything would just work out if I soap in but its so improbable
 
Ya you can see what is open in March and if you get an interview/position. No one knows how many there will be and I wouldn't hang my hat on getting a prelim AND DR position. You may not even want the available options as you will likely go to a T20 program if you reapplied with some radiology research if you were the average Urology candidate.
 
  • Like
Reactions: 1 user
PhysMatMan said:
Your options as an MS4:

Match a prelim year (to start 2021) and advanced spot (to start R1 2022)
Match a prelim year (to start 2021) and soap advanced spot (to start R1 2022)
Soap a prelim year (to start 2021) and match advanced spot (to start R1 2022)
Soap a prelim year (to start 2021) and soap advanced spot (to start R1 2022)
Match a categorical (prelim included to start 2021 with R1 starting 2022)
Soap a categorical (prelim included to start 2021 with R1 starting 2022)
Match a prelim year (to start 2021) and no advanced
Soap a prelim year (to start 2021) and no advanced
Click to expand...
So, a MS4 who wants to be a radiologist needs to apply both to prelim/TY and to rads? This would mean DOUBLE the applications (costs) ans IVs, correct?
 
  • Like
Reactions: 1 users
Yep, these Zoom interviews saved us thousands of dollars. It also means you will probably have to move from wherever your intern year is to where your radiology years are.
 
  • Like
Reactions: 1 users
And if you applied IR/DR you would have 4 to 5 different sets of application costs. IR, DR, Prelim Medicine, Prelim Surgery, Transition year
 
Ya but some do. At least 4 of those of applying IR commonly
 
So, for a sub-average candidate we are possibly talking about hundres of apps, potentially in the ballpark of 10k $ in ERAS' fees, right? Holy moly.

PhysMatMan said:
Your options as an MS4:

Match a prelim year (to start 2021) and advanced spot (to start R1 2022)
Match a prelim year (to start 2021) and soap advanced spot (to start R1 2022)
Soap a prelim year (to start 2021) and match advanced spot (to start R1 2022)
Soap a prelim year (to start 2021) and soap advanced spot (to start R1 2022)
Match a categorical (prelim included to start 2021 with R1 starting 2022)
Soap a categorical (prelim included to start 2021 with R1 starting 2022)
Match a prelim year (to start 2021) and no advanced
Soap a prelim year (to start 2021) and no advanced
Click to expand...

What would my options be if I was PGY1 currently in a prelim med/surg / TY, wishing to go for DR?
 
Last edited:
Not 10k. Probably like 2.5-3k if a subpar applicant applied to like 100 DR, 20 TY, and 20 prelim programs.

you would either have to look for a physician opening or program expansion of you wanted to immediately jump in. Or you could apply just DR and wait one year since they are advanced positions unless you matched at one of the few categorical positions in which you would need to redo intern year. You wouldn’t have to redo intern year if you matched into an advanced position but you would have to find something to do for the year on your own like consulting or something.
 
CyrusHabs7695 said:
I still disagree. If youre applying IR, you would apply IR-int, DR, and pick either med/surg/trans, not usually more than 1
Click to expand...
CyrusHabs7695 said:
I still disagree. If youre applying IR, you would apply IR-int, DR, and pick either med/surg/trans, not usually more than 1
Click to expand...
I believe most people applying for prelim surgery would apply to all 3 unless they were 100% sure they wanted to do prelim surgery then you could only apply for that internship. There is no reason to apply strictly prelim medicine or TY and most people apply to a combo of those usually less than 20 each.
 
Thank you for your answers.

If I understand these numbers correctly (2020 SOAP table from the nrmp.org Match data), there are spots which remain unfilled in all three (surg-prelim, med-prelim, TY). Is it correct to say that if you matched in an advanced DR you are also very likely going to match (or at least SOAP) to a prelim/TY, given a broad enough app?
I'm not sure how the SOAP works: do I have to actually apply broadly to "catch" the unfilled positions, or is the SOAP program itself going to present them to me after I manifest interest in a certain type of program?
Screenshot (75).png
 
If you get an advanced spot but no internship you have to SOAP into an intern position in order to keep your advanced position. There won't be many TY spots open but there are plenty of prelim medicine positions and a pletora of prelim surgery positions open annually.

If this happens, on match week Monday you get an email saying you matched into radiology but not internship. Then you get like 50 tokens to apply to available intern programs which should be plenty. You then interview for those and hopefully get one. Apparently you can call the NRMP to ask what city you matched into so you can try to avoid moving across the country. I met a resident who had to do this and he said it wasn't a big issue.

I would encourage everyone to watch "how the SOAP works" especially this year with virtual interviews. No one knows how much the match will differ this year with virtual interviews or where most people and programs will end up on their list.
 
Cognovi said:
Literally the post above shows there were more TY spots open than prelim medicine.
Click to expand...
Haha i stand corrected! I bet the TY programs were in the middle of nowhere which is quite common.
 
RadsRocks! said:
Haha i stand corrected! I bet the TY programs were in the middle of nowhere which is quite common.
Click to expand...
Some of the middle of nowhere ones are insanely chill though with like 5 months of elective. It's crazy that >200 spots are left for SOAP and then 85% of those remain unfilled. With ophtho switching to categorical it's going to get even bigger every year.
 
  • Like
  • Care
Reactions: 1 users
Only a couple of the TY programs I interviewed during this cycle seemed worse than a preliminary year. The programs make you take inpatient medicine call multiple times a week, even if you are on a different service. Also, of course, the hours are insane and there can be zero elective time. These programs will have mostly IMGs and the TY graduates go on to finish IM training (not go to rads/derm/anesthesia). These are the programs that likely SOAP every year.
 
Printer5000 said:
Only a couple of the TY programs I interviewed during this cycle seemed worse than a preliminary year. The programs make you take inpatient medicine call multiple times a week, even if you are on a different service. Also, of course, the hours are insane and there can be zero elective time. These programs will have mostly IMGs and the TY graduates go on to finish IM training (not go to rads/derm/anesthesia). These are the programs that likely SOAP every year.
Click to expand...
I looked into some of the websites of SOAPing programs last year, and even attended an interview at a program that soaped a couple of their spots last year. As far as I can tell (and according to residents there) it's a normal chill TY with lots of electives it's just not in a highly desired city. The grads from prior years all went to university programs in rads, derm, ophtho, neuro, PM&R.
 
  • Like
Reactions: 1 user
efle said:
I looked into some of the websites of SOAPing programs last year, and even attended an interview at a program that soaped a couple of their spots last year. As far as I can tell (and according to residents there) it's a normal chill TY with lots of electives it's just not in a highly desired city. The grads from prior years all went to university programs in rads, derm, ophtho, neuro, PM&R.
Click to expand...

That makes sense, too. The most chill TY year I interviewed at was in my home town. It is a small town of like 20,000 people. They probably SOAPed a couple people because of the location alone. I would definitely go to the easiest TY place, even if my rads program was multiple states away. However, some people would rather take the harder year so they don’t have to move far. To each their own.
 
I imagine it’s variable for different people. I bet many don’t even apply to places in the middle of nowhere as they are from cities or are used to city life as their med school is in a decent sized city. And most people apply to probably ~10-15 TY programs so have to choose wisely from the pack. I imagine many people look at the programs and say “what would I even do with my free time here?”.
 
  • Like
Reactions: 1 user
Printer5000 said:
That makes sense, too. The most chill TY year I interviewed at was in my home town. It is a small town of like 20,000 people. They probably SOAPed a couple people because of the location alone. I would definitely go to the easiest TY place, even if my rads program was multiple states away. However, some people would rather take the harder year so they don’t have to move far. To each their own.
Click to expand...
Yea, the data on TYs has always been really weird to me. They have like a 70% match rate, but the average number of contiguous ranks is only 3 programs, and there's always hundreds of spots across dozens of programs in the SOAP. I can't really make sense of it, unless there's a lot of perfectly good programs with high standards that are going unfilled because they're in the midwest/small towns.
 
  • Like
Reactions: 1 users
Help me understand this (EU IMG here): all those who want to get into rads and matched/SOAPed in a prelim/TY but not in any advanced/categorical rads have then to reapply to rads (either as PGY2/R, or as an advanced - having than a gap year). That would mean that in July they start their prelim/TY program and in August/September they are already reapplying for the match.
Correct?
 
Pier said:
Help me understand this (EU IMG here): all those who want to get into rads and matched/SOAPed in a prelim/TY but not in any advanced/categorical rads have then to reapply to rads (either as PGY2/R, or as an advanced - having than a gap year). That would mean that in July they start their prelim/TY program and in August/September they are already reapplying for the match.
Correct?
Click to expand...
Yes. This is the way.
 
  • Like
Reactions: 1 user
CyrusHabs7695 said:
Anybody have a list of places that offer this? Only one Ive come across is USF
Click to expand...

Mnowledge said:
Christiana Care in DE, Mayo Clinic Jacksonville in FL. Other programs like Brown and Hofstra Northshore/LIJ are pseudo-categorical, where prelim IM is almost guaranteed to those who match rads.
Click to expand...
Might be a little late to the party, but here's a small project I was working on. The attachment definitely doesn't have all of the Categorical DR programs, but it has ones that I found and might be interested in. Top part shows programs that are categorical or say on their websites that you can choose to do categorical. Middle is UMKC-SOM, which has a strange program apparently. The bottom includes some that seem like they would be more closely related to the pseudo-categorical category, as well as some I'm interested in based on location. etc. Fair warning, I prefer smaller cities and more rural areas, plus I'm from the midwest so I skipped over NYC, Chicago, LA, etc. without looking for categoricals there.

If anybody knows more about some of these programs, feel free to mention it or PM me and I'll edit the doc.

Since Match Day was yesterday, I hope OP had a great day and matched into something he was happy with. Would love to hear how it went. Best of luck in their future!
 

Attachments

  • Categorical DR Programs.xlsx
    10.4 KB · Views: 137
  • Like
Reactions: 1 user
Cspine said:
Might be a little late to the party, but here's a small project I was working on. The attachment definitely doesn't have all of the Categorical DR programs, but it has ones that I found and might be interested in. Top part shows programs that are categorical or say on their websites that you can choose to do categorical. Middle is UMKC-SOM, which has a strange program apparently. The bottom includes some that seem like they would be more closely related to the pseudo-categorical category, as well as some I'm interested in based on location. etc. Fair warning, I prefer smaller cities and more rural areas, plus I'm from the midwest so I skipped over NYC, Chicago, LA, etc. without looking for categoricals there.

If anybody knows more about some of these programs, feel free to mention it or PM me and I'll edit the doc.

Since Match Day was yesterday, I hope OP had a great day and matched into something he was happy with. Would love to hear how it went. Best of luck in their future!
Click to expand...

So I just want to make sure im understanding this correct. Say for example I match to Minnesota (categorical program on your sheet), do I automatically match to their pre-lim spot, even though I didn't specifically apply to their prelim? Sorry if stupid question, this is just confusing
 
CyrusHabs7695 said:
So I just want to make sure im understanding this correct. Say for example I match to Minnesota (categorical program on your sheet), do I automatically match to their pre-lim spot, even though I didn't specifically apply to their prelim? Sorry if stupid question, this is just confusing
Click to expand...
I'm believe you would apply to their categorical (rather than advanced and preliminary separate) and it is automatic that you'd do your prelim at Hennepin. I wouldn't quote me on it though. I'm just going off what I read on their sites.

I still have 2 years before I have to apply so I'm not 100% on how everything works when applying. Just figured since I'm 99% sure on rads I'd put a list together.
 
  • Like
Reactions: 1 user
Cspine said:
I'm believe you would apply to their categorical (rather than advanced and preliminary separate) and it is automatic that you'd do your prelim at Hennepin. I wouldn't quote me on it though. I'm just going off what I read on their sites.

I still have 2 years before I have to apply so I'm not 100% on how everything works when applying. Just figured since I'm 99% sure on rads I'd put a list together.
Click to expand...

This, for the most part. Some programs you MUST do their prelim year and thus it is automatic. Other programs, like USF and Georgetown, they have a prelim that you can do if you want. For the optional ones, you have to do some weird thing where you enter numbers when you are making your rank list. I call it a weird thing because I never did that. I don’t think it’s complicated to do, though.

Edit: Also, I don’t recall you having to pay more if you plan on attending an optional prelim year as well. You just let them know and the programs will give you the codes to put on when making the rank list. It sounds complicated but it is not that bad.
 
  • Like
Reactions: 1 user
So if you match categorical you do all 5 years at that place. If you match to an advanced position, you have to find your own internship via the match as the advanced position starts as a PGY2. This allows you the opportunity to find a chill community internship instead of grinding through a year of big name academic medicine. Most radiology residencies are advanced.
 
  • Like
Reactions: 2 users
You must log in or register to reply here.
Next unread thread

Similar threads

C
Competitiveness of Radiology Fellowships
Replies
14
Views
2K
MadRadLad
M
lobelsteve
Jefferson Radiology poor service
Replies
17
Views
2K
meister
meister
Y
Chillest radiology fellowship programs
Replies
6
Views
1K
Isonicphoton
I
O
How To Find A Radiology Job And Evaluate A Radiology Job Offer
Replies
2
Views
1K
Womb Raider
Womb Raider
J
MSK Radiology Fellowship Programs
Replies
2
Views
1K
vm26
vm26
Top