Denied a Statement of Need for Radiology residency in the US

[Medstart108]

Any update on what became of this situation @Psoralin ?

It worked out, he got his visa in time.

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[D0CYAN]

It's unbelievable the attitude that these admins give people who are just trying to get their medical education. I and some others have been contacting Canadian officials for weeks trying to understand how the SON system works, and more often than not we get snippy remarks and just straight up rudeness for our trouble, when we're not ignored completely. I don't get it.

 

[NewCanadian]

It's unbelievable the attitude that these admins give people who are just trying to get their medical education. I and some others have been contacting Canadian officials for weeks trying to understand how the SON system works, and more often than not we get snippy remarks and just straight up rudeness for our trouble, when we're not ignored completely. I don't get it.

which "Canadian officials" did you contact? May the ones you contacted don't have the answer you want. did you contact the office that looks after the program?

 

[D0CYAN]

which "Canadian officials" did you contact? May the ones you contacted don't have the answer you want. did you contact the office that looks after the program?

It doesn't matter if they don't have the answer, the appropriate response is to politely say so or direct to the correct person.

 

[Mad Jack]

The US should issue visas based upon the merits of the applicant, not the desires of that applicant's home country. Physicians on the US side of things should lobby to end this visa BS.

 

[Psoralin]

For anybody still following this post I just want to point out that it's now November 22nd and Canada has still not released their List of Needed Specialties for 2015! Last year it was released on November 7th!

Possibly this means they've made some changes this year to the system? If only they would make that information available to the hundreds of Canadian IMG's who have no idea what is going on with the Statement of Need quota system for 2015 while they spend thousands of dollars applying for US residency spots. Good job Canada.

 

[NewCanadian]

updates to the needs list were provided to some of us who asked for it and asked to be on a mailing list. I got some of the draft updates back in september, and I got the final version earlier in november. I also got the notice today that the health canada website section for j1 visa was updated,

 

[lindor]

For anybody still following this post I just want to point out that it's now November 22nd and Canada has still not released their List of Needed Specialties for 2015! Last year it was released on November 7th!

Possibly this means they've made some changes this year to the system? If only they would make that information available to the hundreds of Canadian IMG's who have no idea what is going on with the Statement of Need quota system for 2015 while they spend thousands of dollars applying for US residency spots. Good job Canada.

Hi, I was just reading your story and I have a question. I am currently doing residency in the US and just matched for a one year fellowship, and i just applied for a one year extension of my J1. My field of study is Psychiatry and is listed as in need, but my field of fellowship , Psychosomatic medicine is not. I will still be practicing as a general psychiatrist with an added expertise in treating psychiatric conditions in the medically ill. I hope they approve my extension. If they don't can you advise me on how you appealed their decision? Thank you

 

[Psoralin]

Hi, I was just reading your story and I have a question. I am currently doing residency in the US and just matched for a one year fellowship, and i just applied for a one year extension of my J1. My field of study is Psychiatry and is listed as in need, but my field of fellowship , Psychosomatic medicine is not. I will still be practicing as a general psychiatrist with an added expertise in treating psychiatric conditions in the medically ill. I hope they approve my extension. If they don't can you advise me on how you appealed their decision? Thank you

Your situation is a little different so unfortunately I'm not sure what it would take to get a SoN for a fellowship that is not recognized.

 

[vim pat]

Dear Sir/Madam.
I am Canadian Citizen and doing 3rd year Pediatrics residency in Usa. I took Statement of need in year 2012 for it.

I already match in Neurology-Child Neurology for next 3 year In category of Physician Resident. I applied for statement of need for additional training in Neurology-Child Neurology 3 year from July 2015-July 2018.

They denied Statement of need with reason that child neurology is not accepted in Canada.

The training program at university is neurology program with total 3+3 yr. which is equivalent to Canadian Neurology training 4+2 year neurology training. After finishing my 3 year [ Pediatrics] +3 year [ 1year Adult Neurology+2 year child neurology] training I would be eligible for American Neurology Board exam -Adult neurology and pediatric neurology Boards . Therefore upon returning to Canada I will be eligible for RSCPC neurology certification , this will allow me to to practice Adult Neurology as well Child Neurology in Canada.

Please advise me further step that how can I obtain statement of need.

 

[NewCanadian]

Dear Sir/Madam.
I am Canadian Citizen and doing 3rd year Pediatrics residency in Usa. I took Statement of need in year 2012 for it.

I already match in Neurology-Child Neurology for next 3 year In category of Physician Resident. I applied for statement of need for additional training in Neurology-Child Neurology 3 year from July 2015-July 2018.

They denied Statement of need with reason that child neurology is not accepted in Canada.

The training program at university is neurology program with total 3+3 yr. which is equivalent to Canadian Neurology training 4+2 year neurology training. After finishing my 3 year [ Pediatrics] +3 year [ 1year Adult Neurology+2 year child neurology] training I would be eligible for American Neurology Board exam -Adult neurology and pediatric neurology Boards . Therefore upon returning to Canada I will be eligible for RSCPC neurology certification , this will allow me to to practice Adult Neurology as well Child Neurology in Canada.

Please advise me further step that how can I obtain statement of need.

If you look at the provincial ministries' list of needs, it says they need neurology - which means adult neurology. they don't need pediatric neurology (as it is called by the RCPSC). Their list of needs has neurology; it does not have pediatric neurology.

I don't see any way at all you can get RCPSC in adult neurology with the training you've done so far. All you would get from the program you want is ONE YEAR of adult neurology.
Also, Canada does not allow one to practice in two specialties, just one.
But don't rely on my limited knowledge - go to the RCPSC and find out.

 

[NewCanadian]

Hi, I was just reading your story and I have a question. I am currently doing residency in the US and just matched for a one year fellowship, and i just applied for a one year extension of my J1. My field of study is Psychiatry and is listed as in need, but my field of fellowship , Psychosomatic medicine is not. I will still be practicing as a general psychiatrist with an added expertise in treating psychiatric conditions in the medically ill. I hope they approve my extension. If they don't can you advise me on how you appealed their decision? Thank you

you didn't read their rules in detail. they don't allow 'added expertise' unless you have finished your Royal College requirements. but they do allow one more year to meet the royal college requirements. go back to their website, re-read their rules, and update your case with health canada.

 

[Mass_Effect]

Hi Psoralin and all.

I'm going to be applying for the 2019 match for Radiology and this whole Statement of Need requirement is making me extremely stressed out. For 2018, theres 15 max. I'm assuming that number will not increase for 2019. My application is strong, I have great board scores and publications/extracurriculars in radiology. I REALLY REALLY REALLY want to be a diagnostic radiologist. I feel like the only thing limiting me is the SoN. I'm not even worried about board exams or anything, just this SoN.

Also, I hadn't heard about this 2 years back in Canada requirement. Can someone explain this to me?

Psoralin: how did you manage to obtain a SoN after they had already declined you? Should I look into getting an immigration lawyer? What paperwork do I need exactly and when should I start obtaining it? Any tips would be greatly appreciated.

 

[PistolPete]

Hi Psoralin and all.

I'm going to be applying for the 2019 match for Radiology and this whole Statement of Need requirement is making me extremely stressed out. For 2018, theres 15 max. I'm assuming that number will not increase for 2019. My application is strong, I have great board scores and publications/extracurriculars in radiology. I REALLY REALLY REALLY want to be a diagnostic radiologist. I feel like the only thing limiting me is the SoN. I'm not even worried about board exams or anything, just this SoN.

Also, I hadn't heard about this 2 years back in Canada requirement. Can someone explain this to me?

Psoralin: how did you manage to obtain a SoN after they had already declined you? Should I look into getting an immigration lawyer? What paperwork do I need exactly and when should I start obtaining it? Any tips would be greatly appreciated.

If you are a very competitive radiology applicant, then just apply to a program that will sponsor an H1b and forget this whole J1 statement of need nonsense. That’s Canadian beaurocracy for you! They don’t give a crap about your future plans and how a single action (denying a SON) can massively derail career plans.

Otherwise, you will be at their mercy in getting that SON.

Maybe others on here will be able to give you more concrete advice about the SON, since that’s not the route I took so I don’t have direct experience with it. Good luck.

 

[s5260205]

Hi Psoralin and all.

I'm going to be applying for the 2019 match for Radiology and this whole Statement of Need requirement is making me extremely stressed out. For 2018, theres 15 max. I'm assuming that number will not increase for 2019. My application is strong, I have great board scores and publications/extracurriculars in radiology. I REALLY REALLY REALLY want to be a diagnostic radiologist. I feel like the only thing limiting me is the SoN. I'm not even worried about board exams or anything, just this SoN.

Also, I hadn't heard about this 2 years back in Canada requirement. Can someone explain this to me?

Psoralin: how did you manage to obtain a SoN after they had already declined you? Should I look into getting an immigration lawyer? What paperwork do I need exactly and when should I start obtaining it? Any tips would be greatly appreciated.

Also applying to US residency in the upcoming cycle. I suggest looking up all the programs that sponsor H1b visa as mentioned above (FREIDA summarises this information for most programs).

If you are on J1 visa, you are required to return to Canada for 2 years at the end of training before you can work again in US. Also, you are limited in the kind of fellowships you can do after residency. The only fellowships they allow are only when the year of training in US is shorter than that in Canada. As an example, neurology residency in US is only 4 years while it's 5 in Canada. If you were on J1 visa, you are only allowed to do 1-year fellowship from the list they decided arbitrarily for you. I don't even think they allow fellowship for radiology on a J1 visa directly after residency. Also, the 2 year requirement still applies even if you obtain green card during your training.

All in all, H1b visa is the way to go, though you will be greatly limited in the number of residency you can apply to. For example, only 30 neurology programs out of 140's sponsor H1b visa and among them are some of the top programs like Penn or JHU.

 

[Mass_Effect]

Also applying to US residency in the upcoming cycle. I suggest looking up all the programs that sponsor H1b visa as mentioned above (FREIDA summarises this information for most programs).

If you are on J1 visa, you are required to return to Canada for 2 years at the end of training before you can work again in US. Also, you are limited in the kind of fellowships you can do after residency. The only fellowships they allow are only when the year of training in US is shorter than that in Canada. As an example, neurology residency in US is only 4 years while it's 5 in Canada. If you were on J1 visa, you are only allowed to do 1-year fellowship from the list they decided arbitrarily for you. I don't even think they allow fellowship for radiology on a J1 visa directly after residency. Also, the 2 year requirement still applies even if you obtain green card during your training.

All in all, H1b visa is the way to go, though you will be greatly limited in the number of residency you can apply to. For example, only 30 neurology programs out of 140's sponsor H1b visa and among them are some of the top programs like Penn or JHU.

Correct me if I'm wrong, but I thought Trump removed H1B's for medical residency training

 

[s5260205]

Correct me if I'm wrong, but I thought Trump removed H1B's for medical residency training

As far as I know, there has been no changes for H1b visa. There have been ongoing talks about immigration reform with H1b being one subject among many. As of now, H1b visas for medical residency are exempt from the annual cap in place since the sponsoring organisations are non-profit. Proposed changes to H1b have been focused on those utilised by for-profit organisations, especially tech companies. Whether these changes would affect physicians is unknown.

Also, if you are American medical graduate, you will be using your OPT for your PGY1 and H1b starting PGY2, meaning you won't be applying for H1b until 2020. Here's to hoping no major changes occur to H1b visa during this time.

 

[NotAProgDirector]

There's a stickied thread in the IMG forum (the one above this one) that's all about visas. It will answer many questions for you.

Trump temporarily removed "premium processing" from H visas. This is an added fee that gets your visa processed more quickly. By removing it, he created (potential) delays, enough so that programs were worried they wouldn't get them in time. Although I'm not a Trump fan, this whole "premium processing" fee seems like a mob scam than anything else -- if you don't pay for premium processing, you basically never get your visa (since everyone who does pay for premium processing cuts the line). Anyway, it's back, so there's no change.

My only advice about the SoN is to submit immediately after the match. Have everything ready to go, the second the match results come out, you submit (you need to know which program you are going to in order to apply). Still, I expect everyone else will be doing the same. I'm very worried about IM, with a drop in the number of SoN's given this year and comments from Health Canada that more cuts are coming next year.

 

[Psoralin]

Hi Psoralin and all.

I'm going to be applying for the 2019 match for Radiology and this whole Statement of Need requirement is making me extremely stressed out. For 2018, theres 15 max. I'm assuming that number will not increase for 2019. My application is strong, I have great board scores and publications/extracurriculars in radiology. I REALLY REALLY REALLY want to be a diagnostic radiologist. I feel like the only thing limiting me is the SoN. I'm not even worried about board exams or anything, just this SoN.

Also, I hadn't heard about this 2 years back in Canada requirement. Can someone explain this to me?

Psoralin: how did you manage to obtain a SoN after they had already declined you? Should I look into getting an immigration lawyer? What paperwork do I need exactly and when should I start obtaining it? Any tips would be greatly appreciated.

Congrats on your choice to be a radiologist, it's a great field. Unfortunately now you have to deal with Health Canada and the Statement of Need for a J1 and you're worried, and rightfully so. The problems with the way this program is administered by Health Canada have been known for years, and rather than do anything to fix the problems the government has doubled down and made things much much worse.

Whereas in the past, if you were denied a SoN on the basis that the quota was already met (meaning you weren't fast enough to email the request firs), you used to be able to argue that you still deserved a letter by proving there was an unmet need for your specialty somewhere in the province of your residence.

My understanding now is that they have stopped this practice completely and have become firm that once the quota is exhausted no more SoN will be issued. Obviously this is a terrible policy that will literally destroy the lives of many medical students who will have sacrificed hundreds of thousands of dollars on their education and thousands more to interview and participate in the Match only to be told, "sorry, try again next year". Doesn't matter that you were working in the operating room on Match day or performing CPR on a patient in the ED and couldn't send off the email in time. You should have left those patients to die so you could get the SoN first - that's the Health Canada way!

So my advice? IF you apply to programs that only support a J1, be sure you are ready to submit everything for the SoN as soon as you possible on Match day and hope for the best. That means no matter your obligations, whether it your wedding day or your grandmothers funeral, you sit at a computer and send off your application for the SoN once you have everything you need immediately. It's complete bull****, but that's the best the brilliant minds at Health Canada could come up with since they could care less about you, your success as a physician or what it means to US programs that think they have Matched excellent residents only to find out they wont be coming because Canada has denied them a chance for the J1 Visa based on a made up quota with no supporting evidence to backup their numbers.

If you can get into an H1 Program then you'll avoid all this but they are few and far between. You will greatly increase your chances for a successful Match if you include J1 programs. I wouldn't worry about Fellowship stuff until after you've Matched as obviously that's priority number one. Best of luck to you with your application and interviews. Feel free to message me if you have any specific questions/concerns I didn't address.

 

[help wanted]

HI
Im not sure if anyone is still active on this. But i just found out that MY APPLICATION WAS DENIED , over the limits for SON ,with my loans and the cost of reapplication and everything i cant afford not to start this year. What do i do? Who do i contact? any help is appreciated

 

[NotAProgDirector]

Assuming you matched in Rads, you're in luck. You get your SoN for a prelim year. There are unlimited prelim SoN's.

Then, next year, you apply immediately. You'll beat everyone in the match, since you already know where you're going. Interestingly, the limit is increased to 35 for next year -- so perhaps there's some hope that if you ask nicely, they will issue extras this year (since they already want more next year).

 

[Doctor IMG]

hey how are you?
I got matched in IM prog in USA and got rejection from Canada for SON.Please guide me what should i do? should i Hire some lawyer? some people are saying to wait for a year because its impossible . I don't know what i am supposed to do..Please help.

 

[Doctor IMG]

hey how are you?
I got matched in IM prog in USA and got rejection from Canada for SON.Please guide me what should i do? should i Hire some lawyer? some people are saying to wait for a year because its impossible . I don't know what i am supposed to do..Please help.

 

[Doctor IMG]

hey how are you?
I got matched in IM prog in USA and got rejection from Canada for SON.Please guide me what should i do? should i Hire some lawyer? some people are saying to wait for a year because its impossible . I don't know what i am supposed to do..Please help.

 

[H1O1]

Hi Psoralin and all.

I'm going to be applying for the 2019 match for Radiology and this whole Statement of Need requirement is making me extremely stressed out. For 2018, theres 15 max. I'm assuming that number will not increase for 2019. My application is strong, I have great board scores and publications/extracurriculars in radiology. I REALLY REALLY REALLY want to be a diagnostic radiologist. I feel like the only thing limiting me is the SoN. I'm not even worried about board exams or anything, just this SoN.

Also, I hadn't heard about this 2 years back in Canada requirement. Can someone explain this to me?

Psoralin: how did you manage to obtain a SoN after they had already declined you? Should I look into getting an immigration lawyer? What paperwork do I need exactly and when should I start obtaining it? Any tips would be greatly appreciated.

Agree study for Step 3 and get an H1B.

 

[H1O1]

I can't see why health canada would offer you an explanation of why ontario issued your letter. did you yourself ask ontario why it issued your letter? they might answer you if you asked, although they might not tell you what you want to hear.

I don't understand your proposal to issue statement of need before you match because you can only apply for a statement once you have a training position. Students who find a training position outside the match can apply for a statement for family medicine and psychiatry - no limits on those. What's wrong with that?

I don't understand your proposal that the administrator at health canada should decide on your merit. How can a person who is not a physician decide on your merit?

Here's what I guess they mjght do. Some of it is clearly tongue-in-cheek.

You yourself have to prove there is a need for your services in the future.
Only the really high need fields like family medicine and psychiatry would be on the list of needs. Otherwise, you prove there is a need for your specialty.
Return-in-service contracts !
You have to prove you live in Canada.
Pass canadian medical examinations to extend your visa.
Lists of needs sent to all program directors across the US. Post on NRMP. Post on ECFMG.
Have a list of needs in the same way quebec does it: only certain fields are supported, no exceptions, ever.
Have a list of needs valid for five years.

I don't know how many people were involved in your case. Wish I did.

"Some admin"

Wow this is so UNPROFESSIONAL ...this is how Canadian tax payer’s money is wasted. Admin use office hours to play on facebook, Twitter and every forum they can find. If this person’s boss only knew!!!! Maybe we should forward this post to CBC to ask them to do a story on how Health Canada wastes tax payer’s money surfing the web instead of working!!!

Which hash tag should we use please vote below

A - #whatiswrongwithgovernmentworkers
B - #badrepforgovernmentworkers
C - #stopwastingmytaxmoney