Denied a Statement of Need for Child Neurology, Canada

[vim pat]

Dear Sir/Madam.

I am Canadian Citizen and doing 3rd year Pediatrics residency in Usa. I took Statement of need in year 2012 for it.
I already match in Neurology-Child Neurology for next 3 year In category of Physician Resident. I applyed for statement of need for additional training in Neurology-Child Neurology 3 year from July 2015-July 2018.

They denied Statement of need with reason that child neurology is not accepted in Canada.

The training program at university is neurology program with total 3+3 yr. which is equivalant to Canadian Neurology training 4+2 year neurology training. After finishing my 3 year [ Pediatrics] +3 year [ 1year Adult Neurology+2 year child neurology] training I would be eligible for American Neurology Board exam -Adult neurology and pediatric neurology Boards . Therefore upon returning to canada I will be eligible for RSCPC neurology certification , this will allow me to to practice Adult Neurology as well Child Neurology in Canada.

Please advise me further step that how can I obtain statement of need.

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[iceroll]

Question, are Statements of Need for Canadians who practice in the US and want to come back to Canada? What if you're a Canadian who wants to practice in the US?

 

[AStark]

I would look at the Royal College specialty requirements, but I don't think you would be in any way eligible to sit the Adult Neurology Royal College exams based on a 3-year pediatrics residency. Pediatric Neurology is a separate 5-year residency from Adult Neurology; they are both direct-entry programs, though historically they would have been accessed by base specialty training in Pediatrics or Internal Medicine, respectively.

 

[UBC2014]

Question, are Statements of Need for Canadians who practice in the US and want to come back to Canada? What if you're a Canadian who wants to practice in the US?

You need a SON no matter what, if you are a Canadian citizen looking to get eligible training in the US on a J1 VISA.

Doesn't matter if you plan on coming back or not. If you are not, then you best try to find programs that are offering h1b so you can avoid having to deal with health canada and their limitations.

 

[vim pat]

TO - ubc 2014
I cant change my category from J1 to H1 .....
Canada don't mention anything about Child Neurology that how many SON will issue for year 205-2016.

To AS trak
Should I apply SON under Neurology/Child Neurology or Pediatrics again, both has no Cap. [ they can issue any No. of SON]

 

[UBC2014]

Your answer will come directly from Health Canada and what they deem fit for your prospective training and if they have a SON available for you. ASTARK already covered some key points.

It seems to me that they were pretty clear that Neurology-Child is not accepted training in Canada, thus it doesn't matter what category you apply the SON under, as they will deny you again.

The fact they didn't mention Child Neurology on their list of specialties, should have been a red-flag for you before applying to that specialty in the first place - whereby you should have contacted them beforehand to sort it out.

Gluck

 

[UBC2014]

http://www.paeds.utoronto.ca/division/neur.htm

http://fhs.mcmaster.ca/pediatrics/subspecialty_training_programs.html#Neurology

Seems that in Canada you can do 3 years general paediatrics, than a 3 year fellowship in Paediatric Neurology; as an alternative to the 5 year neurology program.


Based on 10 minutes of googling, it does not look like you will have any luck with Health Canada getting your Child-Neuro residency approved. It just doesn't line up.

 

[MontereyMD]

You unfortunately have been handicapped by the classical Canadian inferiority complex or Canadian 'tall poppy syndrome' where Canadians do everything possible to screw and destroy fellow canadians who are successful or are high achievers. Same thing happened to me so I just told Canada to F off with your f in Canadian obsessions with the process and married an American. Best thing I ever did.

 

[UBC2014]

You unfortunately have been handicapped by the classical Canadian inferiority complex or Canadian 'tall poppy syndrome' where Canadians do everything possible to screw and destroy fellow canadians who are successful or are high achievers. Same thing happened to me so I just told Canada to F off with your f in Canadian obsessions with the process and married an American. Best thing I ever did.

What's your story?

 

[AStark]

You unfortunately have been handicapped by the classical Canadian inferiority complex or Canadian 'tall poppy syndrome' where Canadians do everything possible to screw and destroy fellow canadians who are successful or are high achievers. Same thing happened to me so I just told Canada to F off with your f in Canadian obsessions with the process and married an American. Best thing I ever did.

Don't know what your problem is, but the OP apparently didn't do enough research about Canadian training programs and the most basic Royal College specialty requirements. He also seemed to think bizarrely that a peds residency and peds neuro fellowship would somehow qualify as equivalent to adult neurology training.

 

[NewCanadian]

Question, are Statements of Need for Canadians who practice in the US and want to come back to Canada? What if you're a Canadian who wants to practice in the US?

umm, yes, statements of need are for canadians who intend to return to practice in canada. if someone says they will not return to canada, their request will be declined. nevertheless, applicants don't generally make that declaration. I don't know what the actual return rate is, i.,e how many doctors actually get a licence in canada and work, but my unqualified guess is that it is a low rate of return.

 

[NewCanadian]

TO - ubc 2014
I cant change my category from J1 to H1 .....
Canada don't mention anything about Child Neurology that how many SON will issue for year 205-2016.

To AS trak
Should I apply SON under Neurology/Child Neurology or Pediatrics again, both has no Cap. [ they can issue any No. of SON]

you cannot apply under pediatrics again! you are almost finished a residency in pediatrics. there is no support for child neurology at all, is it NOT on the List as a need.

you can stay in the US and work as a pediatrician (get a waiver before it's too late), or you can apply for one year at PG4 level in Ontario (Ontario Repatriation Program), or you can apply for a supervised licence in Ontario.

 

[Medstart108]

The biggest problem is that the J1 visa says you must return to your home country for 2 years after your visa expires, which is why Canada has to issue SoNs.

Even if you don't want to return, unless you can get a waiver at the end of your residency you will still have to return to Canada and find work. But 7 years is a long time and if you did end up getting married to an American for example you wouldn't need to come back.

 

[PistolPete]

Not true. You may not "need to come back" if you get married to an American, but you will have to fulfill your 2 year service obligation before you can get a green card/citizenship, or you'd have to work for 5 years in an underserved area. Hence, why the J1 visa blows.

 

[UBC2014]

The biggest problem is that the J1 visa says you must return to your home country for 2 years after your visa expires, which is why Canada has to issue SoNs.

Even if you don't want to return, unless you can get a waiver at the end of your residency you will still have to return to Canada and find work. But 7 years is a long time and if you did end up getting married to an American for example you wouldn't need to come back.

I think pistol Pete is right, but if you get married BEFORE residency then you're fine or even in pgy1 as you would be on OPT

 

[Medstart108]

Not true. You may not "need to come back" if you get married to an American, but you will have to fulfill your 2 year service obligation before you can get a green card/citizenship, or you'd have to work for 5 years in an underserved area. Hence, why the J1 visa blows.

Wow, i didn't know that. This makes getting back to Canada even more attractive for me then haha.

 

[NewCanadian]

The biggest problem is that the J1 visa says you must return to your home country for 2 years after your visa expires, which is why Canada has to issue SoNs.

Even if you don't want to return, unless you can get a waiver at the end of your residency you will still have to return to Canada and find work. But 7 years is a long time and if you did end up getting married to an American for example you wouldn't need to come back.

"...which is why Canada has to issue SoNs." No. the purpose of the statement of need is to help the person apply for a J-1 Visa. that's all, that's it. It is the United States that says 'Go Home', not Canada. All the provinces ask is the applicant sign their names to some statements confirming they intend to return and they take full responsibility for getting a medical licence.

Nowadays I tend to believe no one really cares if trainees return or not -- harsh and unsympathetic as those words seem. Since the return rate to canada is very low, the provinces will care less and less about issuing statements of need, hence the limits are getting smaller and smaller. approvals for any additional training once the doctor has met Canadian requirements will disappear.

While there are no hard stats that I know of, my sense is IMG and CSA trainees don't return to Canada anyway -- it's just 'too hard'.

 

[slurpeecanadianking]

Dear Sir/Madam.

Hello Vim Pat, what happened in the end? I am in a very similar situation.

I am also a Canadian Citizen and doing 3rd year Pediatrics residency in Usa. I took Statement of need in year 2013 for it.
I already match in Neurology-Child Neurology for next 3 year In category of Physician Resident. I applied for statement of need for additional training in Neurology-Child Neurology 3 year from July 2016-July 2019.

They denied Statement of need for me as well.

Can you reply and tell me what you did in the end?

 

[UBC2014]

If its not accepted training for SON of J1, then you haven no choice.

 

[vim pat]

It's difficult to get rid of this nightmare but there is little chance if you are IMG. as I chose that way and succeeded to get in Child Neurology

 

[slurpeecanadianking]

You are absolutely right, it is such a nightmare. Please message me and give me some guidance on how you succeeded.

 

[UBC2014]

It's difficult to get rid of this nightmare but there is little chance if you are IMG. as I chose that way and succeeded to get in Child Neurology

But did you ultimately actually get the Statement of Need? These days matching to a residency itself or fellowship isn't necessarily the bottleneck - getting the SON is..more and more anyways.

 

[Mad Jack]

Question, are Statements of Need for Canadians who practice in the US and want to come back to Canada? What if you're a Canadian who wants to practice in the US?

Canadians get boned by the system. Their government essentially wants to own them and force them to come back, so unless you can find a way to get an H1B, you're stuck heading back up North. It really isn't fair, at all. Citizens from no other country in the world suffers such penalties in our GME system that I know of.

 

[UBC2014]

Canadians get boned by the system. Their government essentially wants to own them and force them to come back, so unless you can find a way to get an H1B, you're stuck heading back up North. It really isn't fair, at all. Citizens from no other country in the world suffers such penalties in our GME system that I know of.

Well to be fair, it is the US that requires a statement of need for J1 on all foreigners.

It just happens that most other foreigners, would rather stay in the US over their homeland...so the homecountry doesn't have to worry about a bunch of docs returning.

Whereas Canada is very desirable in many aspects, and thus managing workforce needs to come into play. There is only so many healthcare dollars available unfortunately(unless they decide to stop wasting it elsewhere and invest more into healthcare). The number of Canadian IMGs training in the US ever year is equal to 2-3 CDN medical schools. And we don't have very many haha.

 

[NewCanadian]

It's difficult to get rid of this nightmare but there is little chance if you are IMG. as I chose that way and succeeded to get in Child Neurology

I wonder why you chose to pursue child neurology when health canada does not support it BECAUSE the Royal College of Physicians and Surgeons of Canada does not support it. You probably won't qualify to write either the pediatrics exam or the neurology exam. you won't have specialist credentials in canada. It's not as if the rules for statements of need are new to you.

However, now that I have scolded you for ignoring all the rules, chances are the new people in health canada will give you your letter. The new people are having to learn a lot from scratch. Keep up the pressure, and call them today to see what is going on...

edit/update
apparently the person did indeed receive a s of n.

 

[vim pat]

problams comes with solution.the only thing matter is time frame.