Dear ENT rejects

This forum made possible through the generous support of SDN members, donors, and sponsors. Thank you.

nightowl

Senior Member
10+ Year Member
7+ Year Member
15+ Year Member
Joined
Jun 9, 2004
Messages
307
Reaction score
1
I have a question for the people out there who loved ENT, but either knew they weren't competitive or applied and didn't get in, what's your back-up?

I haven't had an awesome time on anything this year until ENT and here I am, absolutely loving it. But I know I am absolutely not competitive and I'm just looking for suggestions of other fields that have the same aspects of ENT that make it so loveable. Or just what other people have chosen to pursue once ENT is out...

Members don't see this ad.
 
For starters, you can do a head and neck oncology fellowship after general surgery as well. I think if you give some more specifics about what you like, you might be able to get some better answers.
 
I have a question for the people out there who loved ENT, but either knew they weren't competitive or applied and didn't get in, what's your back-up?

I haven't had an awesome time on anything this year until ENT and here I am, absolutely loving it. But I know I am absolutely not competitive and I'm just looking for suggestions of other fields that have the same aspects of ENT that make it so loveable. Or just what other people have chosen to pursue once ENT is out...

What does "absolutely not competitive" mean? Many people match into ENT every year with less than stellar grades and boards. You can always take step II early and destroy it. Take a year off to do some research within an otolaryngology department and rotate at other institutions. It can be a very uphill battle but don't sound so hopeless.
 
Members don't see this ad :)
To summarize, I have a below average step I score, completely average grades, no publications or med school research, not AOA, and I'm geographically limited because my husband is matching a year ahead of me. :rolleyes: So, really no exaggeration- I'm simply not competitive, I don't think. I guess I could just apply and see- of course my dad is like do it! they'll love you! but you know, that's my dad... not such a reliable judge. especially after reading the posts on sdn, I'm pretty sure it's a complete waste to even apply. But I am trying to take the fact that I love the field and maybe find something else that would have a lot of the same aspects that I enjoy and go that route instead. if such a career actually exists.
 
The first thing to do is to take some good self-inventory. What exactly do you like about it? Glancing through your past posts, you seem to have been very drawn to OB but were concerned about post-residency hours and family life. Perhaps, then, you liked the mix of medicine and surgery, and you feel comfortable with procedures, but you want something with 'controllable hours'?

There are other reasons to like ENT. Perhaps you're drawn to neuroscience and neuroanatomy? Neurology would be an obvious answer there. The big head & neck cancer ops can be done with an HNS fellowship out of general surgery (or you could head into surgical oncology proper). Like scopes? There's always GI. Enjoy the clinics + procedures? Consider a procedural subspecialty of medicine or peds, or even anesthesia (they have pain clinic, after all). I think your "differential" will say a lot about your motivations & attraction to the field.

I think a lot of people make a grievous mistake in assuming that the surgical subspecialties are somehow 'lifestyle' residencies. No bones about it-- ENT, urology, plastics, etc are all 5+ years of surgical residency. The hours are slightly better than, but still similar to, general surgery (much more similar to surgery than to internal medicine, especially in the sense that there are few 'light months'). And the culture is distinctly surgical.

That being said, you're rotating through ENT right now. And while it is currently hot on the heels of derm and plastics in terms of overall competitiveness, matching into any field is not purely a numbers game. Let's examine the most recent Charting Outcomes data:

39% of successfully matched applicants were AOA.
Mean Step 1 score was 238; 25th %ile was 229.
The vast majority of successful applicants (96%) had at least one research project to their name.

However:
61% of matched applicants were not AOA.
1/3 (33%) US seniors with a Step 1 score in the 180s matched.
1/3 (33%) " in the 190s matched.
6/10 (60%) in the 200s matched.
19/35 (54%) in the 210s matched.

And 10/14 US seniors applying with no research matched.

There are certainly lots of caveats here. Firstly, all of these people *ranked* at least one ENT program, meaning they were offered at least one interview. Many others with subpar stats doubtless applied but simply weren't granted any interviews. Secondly-- and this is the big one-- the non-AOA, low Steps, no research groups are not likely to contain the SAME person. It's possible, but it's highly unlikely.

You can certainly consider taking a year off to do research. This will help you, and your application, in innumerable ways (connections, publications, conferences, etc). If you and your husband are already off-cycle then it won't make much of a difference ( you could even set up your research year at the hospital where he matches, in case it's not your current med school's metro area).

I'm obviously no program director but I think that when PDs are selecting candidates they definitely use board scores and grades, but only as proxies. At the end of the day they want smart, hard-working, capable, reliable residents who will both serve the program well when they're there, and promote the name when they leave. If you think there is something compelling about your interest in ENT and that you would make an exceptionally good resident, average stats be damned, then go for it.

All this is my opinion only obviously-- I'm applying a competitive surgical sub (PRS), and am not quite in your same boat, but I definitely believe that if you're more than your numbers, then you're more than your numbers.
 
The only real problem I see in your situation is the geography limitation. People who do not match in otolaryngology usually have limited themselves to a specific geographic area or a specific tier of programs. If you really are limited to where your husband matches then things do indeed look bleak. Everything else (grades, boards, research) is fixable.
 
I have a question for the people out there who loved ENT, but either knew they weren't competitive or applied and didn't get in, what's your back-up?

I haven't had an awesome time on anything this year until ENT and here I am, absolutely loving it. But I know I am absolutely not competitive and I'm just looking for suggestions of other fields that have the same aspects of ENT that make it so loveable. Or just what other people have chosen to pursue once ENT is out...

What do you like about ENT? Is it the subject matter - H&N anatomy, tonsillar cancers, etc? Is it airway management? Is it being in the OR all the time?

Have you talked to your school's program director yet about any of this? They may be able to give you most specific advice about how to strengthen your app.

Finally, if it's just the subject matter (airway management, H&N anatomy, etc.) - how do you feel about anesthesia? Granted, there is practically no operative time, but if it's the non-operative stuff that you enjoy....something to think about.
 
well, some of the aspects that I love: head and neck anatomy, combination of OR and a good bit of clinic, really interesting and diverse cases, really love the personalities of ENT (pretty much the entire dpt, and I've heard it's the norm), better lifestyle than some other surgical fields, can do oncology, reconstructive plastics, pediatrics... basically really diverse and blends a lot of things I already loved.

I considered anesthesia but the main draw of the OR for me is being able to scrub in and be part of the surgeries. I don't think I would get the same enjoyment being on the other side of the curtain.
 
especially after reading the posts on sdn, I'm pretty sure it's a complete waste to even apply. But I am trying to take the fact that I love the field and maybe find something else that would have a lot of the same aspects that I enjoy and go that route instead. if such a career actually exists.

well, some of the aspects that I love: head and neck anatomy, combination of OR and a good bit of clinic, really interesting and diverse cases, really love the personalities of ENT (pretty much the entire dpt, and I've heard it's the norm), better lifestyle than some other surgical fields, can do oncology, reconstructive plastics, pediatrics... basically really diverse and blends a lot of things I already loved.

Don't be so fatalistic. While you may not be a stellar candidate for ENT, all hope is not lost.

Definitely talk to your school's program director ASAP and lay it out for him - your Step 1 scores, your rotation grades, and your geographic limitations. Ask him what he thinks your next step should be. Be sure to share what you love about ENT - it sounds like you have some very solid reasons to like the field.

Good luck. :)
 
I think it all depends on how much you want it. If you truly feel passionate about ENT, take a year to do research. From what I read, you come from a school with an ENT dept, that makes everything so much easier. Couple of strong letters can get you in.

If you have other specialty choices, then you may consider doing something else because there are certainly lots of ppl matched with low stats and hard work, but there are also lots who didn't match with low stats and hard work.

The biggest problem for you I think is geographical limitation. But either way, I think a year of research at home dept is a great choice. It should be an easy laid back year, and you get to know everyone in the dept really well (=strong letters).
 
It's a tough road but you can do it. See my stickied thread for the details on how to begin. My advice would be to do an ENT rotation and stay until 9PM every night. Bust your butt and act enthusiastic, always with a smile. Never, ever complain. Now that I'm in internship I realize that residents want someone who can work hard and be easy to get along with. Boards scores mean little after you match. Remember, the residents' opinion does matter. When you are "hanging" with the residents during the interview process, you are still being interviewed.

The ENT residency where I'm at is just as hard as genery surgery and harder than neurosurgery. I know because I've rotated through all of them this year. Don't do ENT for lifestyle because you will be miserable during the residency. Now private practice is much better, I hear. But that seems like a long way off when I'm looking at Q4 for the next few years with little to no sleep.

Having said that, you just can't beat the rush of a true airway emergency. From my first call as an intern on ENT, I was the airway expert in the hospital. Now I certainly wasn't an expert, but that was what was required and expected of me. I was called into the trauma bay numerous times and asked to scope a patient in respiratory distress, with the trauma and ER teams staring at me and waiting for the cue of whether to go to the OR, fiberoptically intubate on the spot (with failure meaning slash trach right there in the ER)... etc.

It's truly an amazing field and I wouldn't change a thing. Just remember that there comes a lot of stress with the airway. It can be quite intimidating, and at a busy urban hospital you will see a lot of scary stuff. I haven't done a slash trach personally yet but I've seen one done... and that's with only 2 months on an ENT service. The blend of head and neck cancer, airway, sinus, thyroids, salivary gland tumors is enough to sell me on ENT a million times over.

Good luck with your decision.

Kilroth
 
It's a tough road but you can do it. See my stickied thread for the details on how to begin.

Hi,
I'm interested to know where to start too. :) Also considering ENT as specialty.
Though my case only gets worse. I'll be graduating from PUCMM, Dominican Republic next year (2010). Haven't taken STEP 1 yet, since wasn't a 100% sure if I was going to apply to do residency in the US and didn't feel prepared to ace it yet.
I understand the competitiveness of surgical specialties, especially for IMGs, but I'm willing to take the challenge and accept what I can get only after busting my ass off in the next couple of years trying for it.
Any extra input? I appreciate it.
 
Hi,
I'm interested to know where to start too. :) Also considering ENT as specialty.
Though my case only gets worse. I'll be graduating from PUCMM, Dominican Republic next year (2010). Haven't taken STEP 1 yet, since wasn't a 100% sure if I was going to apply to do residency in the US and didn't feel prepared to ace it yet.
I understand the competitiveness of surgical specialties, especially for IMGs, but I'm willing to take the challenge and accept what I can get only after busting my ass off in the next couple of years trying for it.
Any extra input? I appreciate it.

Well you can start by studying and taking the step 1. I know a guy who did a research year at a hospital in Boston and got a residency the next year for ORL. He graduated from Grenada.
 
Top