D.O. Friendly Residency?

[Mountain D.O.]

I will be starting rotations this fall and I am wondering which residency programs are D.O. friendly. For example I have looked at the program in Denver website and there isn't a D.O. anywhere in the listings (Faculty and Residents). I assume this is a bad sign. I am interested in living in the West, Utah would be first choice. Are there many if any DO residents in Utah's program. Just looking for where to be looking.

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[DOctorJay]

This certainly does not seem to be the rule in PM&R. Many programs are very welcoming to DO's because of our knowledge of the musculoskeletal system and our skills with OMM. I have heard that many programs ask the DO's to teach OMM to their MD counterparts during residency. Start talking to some of the medical student mentors on the AAPM&R site to get a better feel for the programs out there.

Good luck
-J

 

[bob13]

This certainly does not seem to be the rule in PM&R. Many programs are very welcoming to DO's because of our knowledge of the musculoskeletal system and our skills with OMM. I have heard that many programs ask the DO's to teach OMM to their MD counterparts during residency. Start talking to some of the medical student mentors on the AAPM&R site to get a better feel for the programs out there.

Good luck
-J

check out the nova se COM website... they have a program i think but it is not the the west.

 

[electra]

I interviewed at five programs and none gave me the impression of being "D.O. unfriendly." If anything, I think the programs appreciate greater practice in the musculoskeletal exam and our experience with manual medicine.

The University of Washignton in Seattle has an outstanding program in PM&R, and that's about as West Coast as you can get.

 

[Mountain D.O.]

Thanks, so I guess I can put Washington on my list and leave Denver off. What about taking USMLE? Is it necessary? I am an average student and COMLEX was tough/who knows. I don't want to take it but...
What is the current advice in the pmr world??

 

[electra]

I don't think I understand why you are ruling out what is a very good program when you have no experience with the process (yet).

1) This "unfriendly" issue has been discussed ad nauseum on the clinical rotations forum. Students need to stop worrying from the get-go about whether or not a program is friendly and start worrying about their application and how it stands up to review.

2) Programs without D.O.s are not necessarily unfriendly. They may not have seen many applications for their program. Remember, it is only in the last four years that D.O.s have been pursuing PM&R in great numbers and only in the last six-ten years that osteopathic schools have been graduating students in stronger numbers.

3) You don't have a COMLEX score back yet, but you're losing information every day. If you are going to take the USMLE, better do it soon. I don't think there are many programs that would refuse to interview you, but a good score can certainly make up for other issues on your transcript.

4) Your focus right now needs to be PM&R experience and rotations, things that make you look like a serious candidate. The days are over when people could waltz in to an interview and get a spot. Make sure that your application shows that you have proven interest or research in rehabilitation. Play up the volunteer experience and rehab experience that you have on your application. Consider becoming a student member of a professional society. Utilize the mentor lists on the AAPMR website. Play up any interest that you have in manual medicine. get a letter of recommendation from a physiatrist.

5) Spend some serious time on your application and personal statement. Get it in early, as programs begin to schedule interviews early.

Back to Denver....I applied on the last possible day and had an interview request three days later. There is no reason to think this program is not friendly. And it is a good program. And Colorado is a good state to be a D.O.; they have an active osteopathic association and different fellowships, including sports medicine.

I say "good luck" to you, but I don't think you will need it. There is no reason for you to think that you are not a valid candidate with your school training.

 

[staydin]

If you're a third year or even fourth year, it is time to play up your PM&R experience. If you're a third year, find your local PMR directer or PMR dept head, and ask if you can just come in and spend time with him/her when you have down time. If you're a fourth year, electives are the key at this point. Research is also a good booster. I have seen the number one students in classes not match in there top 5 because they counted on their grades and board scores alone. When they got to their interviews, they didn't stand out or even have the passion for PM&R.

As far as the USMLE/COMLEX debate; I never even thought twice. The dread of taking an extra test! If you're a D.O. looking to do PM&R its not needed. I went on 7 interviews and I was never asked about USMLE's. My COMLEX scores were ok, and they were never addressed either. My grades were brought up once or twice. But for the most part no one really cared.

PM&R is competative. Who ever said it wasn't was misinformed. Good programs are always hard to get into, regardless of the specialty. I'm not exactly sure where you are in the game, but if you have electives, make sure you do them at your top two choices. And make sure they LOVE you! You really have to do something to stand out. Its not just a matter of working hard, or know everything they pimp you on. These are really interviews, do you fit in, do you work well within the atmosphere. Make sure when you are there, all the docs hear about you. Its a good thing when you meet the PD at the program, and he/she says to you, "I've heard a lot of good things about you." I know this is all easier said than done.

On electives try to function at the level of a resident, read read read, do inpatient rehab, research in wound care, etc. When the pimping pecking order begins with you, its good to answer questions so that the residents dont have to...but again you don't want to be a know it all and show up the residents....its all a crazy game of balance.

PM&R is so broad, people get so caught up in the outpatient and MSK/sports of it they forget EMG, wound care, burn, SCI, TBI, stroke. Everyone a program interviews has outpatient PM&R, and I can tell you the bigger, and more competative programs don't want people who have ' I WANT TO DO SPORTS' all over thier application.

Another thing, letter of rec. can go a long way. The PM&R world is small, so the key is finding, getting to know, working with someone who is well know in the field nationally, or at least in your geographic area (i.e. west coast). It will often come up in the interview, and carries a lot of wieght.

Do your research into programs. Start a database. This is decision will affect you for the next 4 years, even more so the rest of your career. So do your homework, ask students, residents, docs, everyone about the programs you are interested in. The whole DO friendly program thing is not really important. It is only an issue if you make it an issue.

Try to get involved in the AAPMR. As a student, I went to the annual conventions, and submitted/presented abstracts. Become a member of the AAPMR/PASSOR, with that you'll get the Archives of PMR. You can start reading and learning more about rehab and it will motivate you, diversify you, and give you substance when you interview. Its one thing to pay the membership fee and put it on your CV, its another when you go to the conventions, see the lectures, and read the journal. It shows devotion and passion...which are the keys to getting into a good program. If you can figure out how to develop that, and show that to you interviewers, you're golden.

Good luck.

 

[Mountain D.O.]

Your advice is falling upon open ears. Thanks a lot for taking the time to share your wisdom. I am just finishing second year so I am caught up in the worry talk among the uneducated. I am planning on following this advice very closely. I will keep you all posted on my progress. Step one, hook up with the physiatrist I know who is friends with the PD in Utah. I guess the game begins. Wish me luck.

 

[wscott]

Hey everybody, just checking in to this DO thread - I'm a New York college of Osteopathic Medicine grad almost (!) in my final year of training at Louisiana State University's PM&R program.

Until recently, DO's could not be licensed in Louisiana without having full specialty board certification or without taking all three steps of the USMLE. What that meant was no moonlighting during residency, and no qualification to work until passing the oral exam, which must be taken at least one-year post training. This obviously did not concern the program or me too much when I applied and was pleased to be accepted. In my opinion, my educational experience has been nothing less than solid.

Regardless, my fiancée and I (also in the same program) have been active with lobbying the Louisiana State Medical Board to change this rule and place DO's on equal footing with our counterparts. Correct me if I am wrong, but I believe this is the last State and the final rule to accomplish equality across America.

I'm pleased to report that a decision was made early in the spring to grant licensure to DO's who have passed all three steps of the COMPLEX (just like every other state). As a PGY-3, I finally received my license two days ago - an accomplishment on multiple levels.

In our program we have 24 residents, 4 of which are DO's. Both the chairman and the residency director have interest in Osteopathic manipulation and have taken several courses. Personally, I am active with teaching faculty, residents, and students about manipulation and selectively use it in practice during clinics.

So, in all, we are a DO friendly PM&R program and clearly there is an increasing interest in the State. To the original post - We're not in the west, but if your into the outdoors you may still like louisiana as it's named the "sportsman's paradise" on the license plate...plus all the benefits of the French quarter!

To learn more, check out the link to our website,

http://www.medschool.lsuhsc.edu/physical_medicine/

Overall, everyone else is spot-on…In my opinion, don't trouble yourself with the USMLE. Take advantage of what it means to be a DO, our difference in training is valued in this field.
Good luck!!

 

[caedmon]

Any program who would not be DO friendly is definitely behind in the times.
All of the top programs I interviewed at seemed to have DOs, and several friends who I met on the trail that were DOs matched into top programs. Electra is right, BUFF your application, get good letters of rec, and rotate away! I would suggest to read enough on aways, but not too much. I rotated at a top program, and they didn't expect the interns to know everything about PM&R, and they definitely didn't expect me to. Work hard and show them that you are someone they would like to work with.

 

[klgsatx]

CHECK OUT UTHSCSA

Several DO on board...plus a couple years back one DO was chief

 

[klgsatx]

Residents Online
Academic Year 2004-2005



--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Chief Residents
Academic
Steve X. Truong, M.D.



Administrative
Heather A. McKenzie, M.D.



PGY-4
Stephen W. Dinger, D.O.

Antoine D. Jones, M.D.

W. Ellen Lin, M.D.

Heather A. McKenzie, M.D.

Erik T. Shaw, D.O.

Steve X. Truong, M.D.

Christine J. Vidouria, D.O.


PGY-3

William S. Ahlenius, M.D.

Kristin A. Jarrard, M.D.

Carlos T. J. Martinez, D.O.

Kelly A. Sauer, M.D.

David A. Travillion, M.D.

Kent S. Yamamoto, M.D.



PGY-2
Shaun C. Jackson, M.D.

Christopher J. McAllister, M.D.

Lam D. Nguyen, D.O.

Eric D. Nolen, M.D., M.B.A.

Lisa M. Pitino, D.O.

Daniel L. Santa Maria, M.D.



PGY-1
Eric P. Alexander, M.D.

Justin C. Chavez, M.D.

Susan Jung Kim, D.O.

Christopher R. Martin, M.D.

Scott D. Stuempfig, M.D.

Katherine C. Tedesco-Evans, M.D.

 

[axm397]

I think you would be limiting yourself by trying to apply only to "D.O friendly programs".

When I was interviewing, I also heard rumors about "D.O friendly vs unfriendly programs". I interviewed at many of the "unfriendly" programs and met D.O. students at each one of those programs.

If you have the right credentials and your applciation is strong, you will get interviews. There really is NO way of reading the PD's mind.

I think the same goes for "FMG friendly vs unfriendly programs."

It's find to look at the current resident roster and try to read into it - but you have to keep in mind that the match process varies every year and some things are beyond the PD's control.

For eample, Kessler had an almost all-white male class when I interviewed. If I saw that and thought Kessler was "unfriendly" towards all "non-white males", and didn't apply, I would have missed out on the opportunity to see one of the best programs in the country.

Just cast your net wider if you think you will have problems getting interviews. Don't worry about components of your application that you can't change/control. If you are pleasantly suprised by the number of interviews you are offered, you can always cancel/not accept the interview offers.

 

[macman]

I don't think I understand why you are ruling out what is a very good program when you have no experience with the process (yet).

1) This "unfriendly" issue has been discussed ad nauseum on the clinical rotations forum. Students need to stop worrying from the get-go about whether or not a program is friendly and start worrying about their application and how it stands up to review.

2) Programs without D.O.s are not necessarily unfriendly. They may not have seen many applications for their program. Remember, it is only in the last four years that D.O.s have been pursuing PM&R in great numbers and only in the last six-ten years that osteopathic schools have been graduating students in stronger numbers.

3) You don't have a COMLEX score back yet, but you're losing information every day. If you are going to take the USMLE, better do it soon. I don't think there are many programs that would refuse to interview you, but a good score can certainly make up for other issues on your transcript.

4) Your focus right now needs to be PM&R experience and rotations, things that make you look like a serious candidate. The days are over when people could waltz in to an interview and get a spot. Make sure that your application shows that you have proven interest or research in rehabilitation. Play up the volunteer experience and rehab experience that you have on your application. Consider becoming a student member of a professional society. Utilize the mentor lists on the AAPMR website. Play up any interest that you have in manual medicine. get a letter of recommendation from a physiatrist.

5) Spend some serious time on your application and personal statement. Get it in early, as programs begin to schedule interviews early.

Back to Denver....I applied on the last possible day and had an interview request three days later. There is no reason to think this program is not friendly. And it is a good program. And Colorado is a good state to be a D.O.; they have an active osteopathic association and different fellowships, including sports medicine.

I say "good luck" to you, but I don't think you will need it. There is no reason for you to think that you are not a valid candidate with your school training.

Very strong advice-

-my only disagreement would be on taking the USMLE now (or soon). First, I would only take it if you tank COMLEX, i.e. nothing to lose at that point. Even then, if you tank the COMLEX you might be better off studying hard and rocking Part 2 COMLEX and having your results handy for ERAS.

One PD asked me: "Sooo, your COMLEX part 1 score is great, what do you think it would have been on the USMLE, I have seen a few people with high COMLEX part 1 and mediocre USMLE part 1, and then I have to decide which one to look at." My logic on this one is why open yourself up to 'damaging evidence' if you don't have to.

Everyone has their own opinion on this one......

 

[Mountain D.O.]

I was scared into signing up for the USMLE by a professor who did medical education research. He presented the information in a way that made it seem like if I didn't have a USMLE score I wouldn't have a chance in the West. I am regreting my actions now and will be giving up the $445 I paid for the test. I always thought if a program won't respect my degree then how are they going to respect me. Lesson learned: Do not act out of fear, and stay true to what you feel. I appreciate all that has been said here and I hope others out there are learning.

 

[drusso]

I don't know why more D.O.'s don't take the USMLE. It essentially tests the same information as the COMLEX. Yes, it is a pain taking two exams, but you eventually just take the Step 3 COMLEX and be licensed under that pathway. Steps 1 and 2 of the USMLE (which in med school we used to refer to as the "smelly") is all that's needed for residency applications. It puts to rest a lot of silly "what would your USMLE scores have been" discussions.

My advice: take it, take it, take it.

 

[macman]

I don't know why more D.O.'s don't take the USMLE. It essentially tests the same information as the COMLEX. Yes, it is a pain taking two exams, but you eventually just take the Step 3 COMLEX and be licensed under that pathway. Steps 1 and 2 of the USMLE (which in med school we used to refer to as the "smelly") is all that's needed for residency applications. It puts to rest a lot of silly "what would your USMLE scores have been" discussions.

My advice: take it, take it, take it.

What do you feel is the advantage to taking the USMLE? I guess my philosophy was that if they would not accept the COMLEX they probably were not very open to DO's anyway (since I have not sat on a residency commitee thats pure conjecture [sp]).

I could see if a DO wanted to try to make inroads into a specialty or program that was not DO friendly it makes sense, otherwise what is the rationale? Why open yourself up to a possible bad day and smear on your record if you can get the job done with a good COMLEX score?


Thanks

 

[joseppi]

On the topic of USMLE, does anyone find it necessary to take it (Step II) for the purpoose of finding an intern position. I didn't take step I. Since they are dwindling and most the other applicants for transitional year are either rads, gas, neuro seems most programs would like you to have? Any input would be appreciated. I probably won't put any more effort for it, but since I am already studying for the comlex I figured it can't hurt. It's only one more Saturday, right!

 

[electra]

See, Mountain, D.O., here you go again. No one is disrespecting your degree. The USMLE is the LICENSING STANDARD for physicians. Allos take it, FMGs take it, WE should take it. In my opinion, the COMLEX is a piece of trash as a test, and IT HOLDS US BACK. NO ONE at any program has to justify being less than interested in not wanting to know what that score means. SO, a 690 on COMLEX? BFD. What does that mean? Put it next to a 240 on the USMLE, and brother, they know what that means.

I completely disagree with the COMLEX as a separate licensing exam. Completely. The COMLEX is something that the school should require you to take and pass to show "proficiency" in osteopathic medicine. What it really shows is "proficiency" in taking a poorly written, archaic-style exam. We should be required to take the USMLE for licensure. It provides an even footing to our education and ability to apply to programs. The AOA does nothing to help us by forcing us to take an exam that is "the same" as the USMLE. If it's "the same", then take it, pass it, and don't look back.

Ask yourself this: If you had to go to court, and you met with your attorney and asked "Did you pass the bar on the first try?" and your attorney said, "Aw, I went to this osteopathic law school and we didn't have to take the bar. We took this other exam." Honestly, now. Honestly. Would you run?

I chose osteopathic medicine. I chose it. I believe in it, I pratice it, and I preach it. But that doesn't mean that I agree blindly with the AOA, an organization that is divisive and holds us back.

Consider....that the truly "D.O. unfriendly" programs you're worried about might have 1) had a lousy experience with someone (that WILL sour you) or 2) doesn't believe we are as well-trained because we don't take the USMLE and can't be compared because the exams are like apples and oranges.

And, if that's DMac who told you guys that, he is exactly right. How many people, every year, go in with one thought and change their minds and then find themselves stuck because they can't get an ACGME position and then can't get the fellowship training that they need? Too many! How come FMG applicants get more fellowships than D.O.s? It's certainly not because we are less talented.

Never, never, blame a program and state that "if they don't respect my COMLEX then forget it!" They don't understand it, they don't have to understand it, and you lose since the AOA forces us to take it. You gain nothing.
Take the USMLE. Take it, pass it, go get your program. Because when you're getting ready for 4th year and applications, and you have changed your mind (or not) you won;t be able to go back and do it over.

And, it's kind of fun being able to tell people you took it and scored better than they did, even thoguh you were studying for COMLEX. ;-)

 

[Mountain D.O.]

I totally agree with everything you say electra and I know you are right. I really wish I was in a better position to take the test but things didn't go well circumstantially for me. So I have to go with what I have, a COMLEX score that hopefully doesn't suck. My chance to take USMLE has passed and I hope I didn't completely screw myself over. I guess I just really wanted the way things turned out to be the "best way" and they're not. So I am going to rock my rotations and hopefully get a strong application otherwise. Is the test really that important? Is it the holy measuring stick everyone makes it out to be? Am I going to be screwed because I had a bad two months? Is it possible to take USMLE step 2 in time and do well on it? Would that matter? I just want to be a D.O. physiatrist.

 

[macman]

I totally agree with everything you say electra and I know you are right. I really wish I was in a better position to take the test but things didn't go well circumstantially for me. So I have to go with what I have, a COMLEX score that hopefully doesn't suck. My chance to take USMLE has passed and I hope I didn't completely screw myself over. I guess I just really wanted the way things turned out to be the "best way" and they're not. So I am going to rock my rotations and hopefully get a strong application otherwise. Is the test really that important? Is it the holy measuring stick everyone makes it out to be? Am I going to be screwed because I had a bad two months? Is it possible to take USMLE step 2 in time and do well on it? Would that matter? I just want to be a D.O. physiatrist.

I guess i'm in the minority here-but I feel you did not make a mistake in not taking the usmle. You can easily have your part 2 COMLEX scores avail. for ERAS. Don't worry. I thought I had failed COMLEX 1 and ended up doing fine. You letters of rec. and rotation evals matter much more. Do some PM&R research/other outside work and you'll be in like flynn! Concentrate on YOUR strengths. Good luck!

 

[staydin]

See, Mountain, D.O., here you go again. No one is disrespecting your degree. The USMLE is the LICENSING STANDARD for physicians. Allos take it, FMGs take it, WE should take it. In my opinion, the COMLEX is a piece of trash as a test, and IT HOLDS US BACK. NO ONE at any program has to justify being less than interested in not wanting to know what that score means. SO, a 690 on COMLEX? BFD. What does that mean? Put it next to a 240 on the USMLE, and brother, they know what that means.

I completely disagree with the COMLEX as a separate licensing exam. Completely. The COMLEX is something that the school should require you to take and pass to show "proficiency" in osteopathic medicine. What it really shows is "proficiency" in taking a poorly written, archaic-style exam. We should be required to take the USMLE for licensure. It provides an even footing to our education and ability to apply to programs. The AOA does nothing to help us by forcing us to take an exam that is "the same" as the USMLE. If it's "the same", then take it, pass it, and don't look back.

Ask yourself this: If you had to go to court, and you met with your attorney and asked "Did you pass the bar on the first try?" and your attorney said, "Aw, I went to this osteopathic law school and we didn't have to take the bar. We took this other exam." Honestly, now. Honestly. Would you run?

I chose osteopathic medicine. I chose it. I believe in it, I pratice it, and I preach it. But that doesn't mean that I agree blindly with the AOA, an organization that is divisive and holds us back.

Consider....that the truly "D.O. unfriendly" programs you're worried about might have 1) had a lousy experience with someone (that WILL sour you) or 2) doesn't believe we are as well-trained because we don't take the USMLE and can't be compared because the exams are like apples and oranges.

And, if that's DMac who told you guys that, he is exactly right. How many people, every year, go in with one thought and change their minds and then find themselves stuck because they can't get an ACGME position and then can't get the fellowship training that they need? Too many! How come FMG applicants get more fellowships than D.O.s? It's certainly not because we are less talented.

Never, never, blame a program and state that "if they don't respect my COMLEX then forget it!" They don't understand it, they don't have to understand it, and you lose since the AOA forces us to take it. You gain nothing.
Take the USMLE. Take it, pass it, go get your program. Because when you're getting ready for 4th year and applications, and you have changed your mind (or not) you won;t be able to go back and do it over.

And, it's kind of fun being able to tell people you took it and scored better than they did, even thoguh you were studying for COMLEX. ;-)

The only fault in your idea in making one test for both D.O.s and M.D.s is that once you have one test for both, why have both D.O.s and M.D.s?

 

[Mountain D.O.]

The only fault in your idea in making one test for both D.O.s and M.D.s is that once you have one test for both, why have both D.O.s and M.D.s?

Who knows. Half the time we try to say we are different and the other half we try to say we are the same. In this forum I think the difference is even smaller because physiatry seems to embrace the "osteopathic" approach. Manual medicine is becoming more popular among the M.D.s (I saw a course offered at Harvard Medical School, online I think). So maybe there should be one test and we could get an O.M.D degree if we knew a little manual medicine. Again who knows.
(I know, I know we ARE different).

 

[melancholy]

I think there are quite a few institutions that host OMT courses aside from those by the American Academy of Osteopathy i.e. Harvard, U of Mich, and RIC (I think in conjunction with the CCOM fellows? I may be mistaken) Yes it is becoming popular for both MD's and DO's who see a use for OMT in their practice.

Doh.. no offense regarding the OMD degree thing, but I am apprehensive to think about how many message threads have been devoted to that sort of thing.. heh heh.

Who knows. Half the time we try to say we are different and the other half we try to say we are the same. In this forum I think the difference is even smaller because physiatry seems to embrace the "osteopathic" approach. Manual medicine is becoming more popular among the M.D.s (I saw a course offered at Harvard Medical School, online I think). So maybe there should be one test and we could get an O.M.D degree if we knew a little manual medicine. Again who knows.
(I know, I know we ARE different).

 

[melancholy]

I'll throw in that one of the chiefs at Hopkins PM&R is a DO and the new PGY-2 class has two of them as well. I don't have to comment on Spaulding's program which accepted quite a few DO's in one of their more recent classes.

CHECK OUT UTHSCSA

Several DO on board...plus a couple years back one DO was chief

 

[drvlad2004]

Throughout my interviews, every program were so receptive to DOs. Michigan State and NUMC are dually accredited and takes lot of DOs, if you are looking into one of these types of programs. Focus on landing the residency program of your choice. If you were applying to specialties like rads, gas, uro, and other more highly competitive fields, then I would be more strategic in which programs that I would apply to. PM&R is definitely one of the most progressive fields in medicine.

 

[melancholy]

Damn, I must be behind in the times. I forgot about NUMC being dually-accredited. I did go onto the websites for both UMich and NUMC residencies and maybe it was just me, but I was not able to find their statement of dual accreditation. (Just mention of accreditation by ACGME). I had to go snoop around on the AOA website to confirm the AOA-approved PM&R programs.

Just an interesting little thought.

Throughout my interviews, every program were so receptive to DOs. Michigan State and NUMC are dually accredited and takes lot of DOs, if you are looking into one of these types of programs. Focus on landing the residency program of your choice. If you were applying to specialties like rads, gas, uro, and other more highly competitive fields, then I would be more strategic in which programs that I would apply to. PM&R is definitely one of the most progressive fields in medicine.