D.O. degree change

[LSU Alex]

Bones delivers such a meaty story for discussion and it gets ignored because everyone else on this thread is arguing over why the other people on this thread are here and over what they said they said and whether they deserve to be here or not.

I for one would be fascinated to know if Bones' experience has been had by other students as well.

Sounds like that preceptor revealed a little bit too much about the Force before Bones was ready to accept it. I imagine the rest of the convo went like this:
Bones: "... I... I don't believe it."
Attending: "That is why you fail."


Guys, docs on the front lines wearing D.O. on their coats don't care about a degree name change. It really isn't that important. I've had one -- ONE -- patient ask me about the initials on my coat this entire year. After making sure she didn't think the letters made me look fat and a 5-minute history lesson, I got a "you're one of the best doctors I've ever had" from her. Patients don't care. Colleagues don't care. And mom still loves me... that's all that's important.

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[Drrrrrr. Celty]

Don't you guys think eliminating BS from our already loaded curriculum should be our priority right now, instead of changing our title, which doesn't even matter that much anyways (DMD vs. DDS, anyone)???????

I think that has a less likely chance of happening that the change in title.

 

[SpecterGT260]

Bones delivers such a meaty story for discussion and it gets ignored because everyone else on this thread is arguing over why the other people on this thread are here and over what they said they said and whether they deserve to be here or not.

I for one would be fascinated to know if Bones' experience has been had by other students as well.

welcome to SDN

but... yeah now that I read his story.... wtf

 

[Osteotastic]

.

 

[SpecterGT260]

Sounds like that preceptor revealed a little bit too much about the Force before Bones was ready to accept it. I imagine the rest of the convo went like this:
Bones: "... I... I don't believe it."
Attending: "That is why you fail."


Guys, docs on the front lines wearing D.O. on their coats don't care about a degree name change. It really isn't that important. I've had one -- ONE -- patient ask me about the initials on my coat this entire year. After making sure she didn't think the letters made me look fat and a 5-minute history lesson, I got a "you're one of the best doctors I've ever had" from her. Patients don't care. Colleagues don't care. And mom still loves me... that's all that's important.

 

[SpecterGT260]

T

Would change to MDO be the same as MD no, and it shouldn't be. The point is an accurate representation of what is emphasized, mastered and adhered to in our profession. In the meantime will I continue being an excellent physician... of course! Will I continue to support strengthening of our field ... of course! It need not be either or... this is an argument of accuracy of ideology and representation.

I still havent figured out what you think you would gain by going MDO . On a similar note, my GFs PhD program is changing from "Cellular and Molecular Biology" to "Molecular Medicine". Because tacking on "medicine" to things is important to others as well, apparently.

Or at least that WOULD be my opinion if I werent a sad fake medical student typing from his mother's basement (Just throwing that in as an aside to highlight for potential lurkers the notion that if you call a tall guy short or a skinny guy fat.... he cares less than you look stupid. No, that wasnt a grammatical error, btw. Just think about it using >/< signs)

 

[Osteotastic]

Sounds like that preceptor revealed a little bit too much about the Force before Bones was ready to accept it. I imagine the rest of the convo went like this:
Bones: "... I... I don't believe it."
Attending: "That is why you fail."


Guys, docs on the front lines wearing D.O. on their coats don't care about a degree name change. It really isn't that important. I've had one -- ONE -- patient ask me about the initials on my coat this entire year. After making sure she didn't think the letters made me look fat and a 5-minute history lesson, I got a "you're one of the best doctors I've ever had" from her. Patients don't care. Colleagues don't care. And mom still loves me... that's all that's important.

Sounds like that preceptor revealed a little bit too much about the Force before Bones was ready to accept it. I imagine the rest of the convo went like this:
Bones: "... I... I don't believe it."
Attending: "That is why you fail."


Guys, docs on the front lines wearing D.O. on their coats don't care about a degree name change. It really isn't that important. I've had one -- ONE -- patient ask me about the initials on my coat this entire year. After making sure she didn't think the letters made me look fat and a 5-minute history lesson, I got a "you're one of the best doctors I've ever had" from her. Patients don't care. Colleagues don't care. And mom still loves me... that's all that's important.

This is a nice sentiment - "The letters don't matter" , "It doesn't matter, because I love me"

I understand this sentiment. Are letters the end all be all? No, of course they are not the MOST important. The most important thing is the time you put in, your dedication and how you care for your patients. I agree with that whole - heartedly and the thing I love best about my career is taking care of my patients. I get terrific reviews from them and getting in to see me is always competitive now that I have a very loyal patient following.

That said. And all of the comments about strengthening our curriculum and our profession being of highest value. Yes Yes and more Yes. What I am talking about is a symbolic change that represents a guiding ideology. Symbolism is very very important. It represents the values of your field and what your expertise are. Right now our designation is symbolic and signifies that we are doctors of Osteopathy. I don't know about other doctors in practice/residency here but I don't practice Osteopathy. I practice medicine. I believe our designation should signify this. I'm ok with leaving the O in there, I would like a symbolic representation that what we practice and learn however is not just O but very much M.

As for the rest of strengthening our field, residency merger with AGCME as currently planned, practicing good medicine, yes to all of that.

As for representing to others in the medical field, to patients and the world that we are doctors of Medicine as well as Osteopathy through degree designation and symbolism - I believe it matters a great deal.

And as for the letters being of no importance on the front lines. This is just plain false. I have heard residency director directly state otherwise as I mentioned in a previous post. It matters in terms of where you end up in residency, how you are perceived by other doctors - I had a candid conversation with a few MDs about this who said "honestly yes"- "you kind of look at those letters on the coat and say hmmmmm" whereas the MD you just don't" - this is verbatim what was said and it is true.

Would change to MDO be the same as MD no, and it shouldn't be. The point is an accurate representation of what is emphasized, mastered and adhered to in our profession. In the meantime will I continue being an excellent physician... of course! Will I continue to support strengthening of our field ... of course! It need not be either or... this is an argument of accuracy of ideology and representation.

 

[LSU Alex]

This is a nice sentiment - "The letters don't matter" , "It doesn't matter, because I love me"

I understand this sentiment. Are letters the end all be all? No, of course they are not the MOST important. The most important thing is the time you put in, your dedication and how you care for your patients. I agree with that whole - heartedly and the thing I love best about my career is taking care of my patients. I get terrific reviews from them and getting in to see me is always competitive now that I have a very loyal patient following.

That said. And all of the comments about strengthening our curriculum and our profession being of highest value. Yes Yes and more Yes. What I am talking about is a symbolic change that represents a guiding ideology. Symbolism is very very important. It represents the values of your field and what your expertise are. Right now our designation is symbolic and signifies that we are doctors of Osteopathy. I don't know about other doctors in practice/residency here but I don't practice Osteopathy. I practice medicine. I believe our designation should signify this. I'm ok with leaving the O in there, I would like a symbolic representation that what we practice and learn however is not just O but very much M.

As for the rest of strengthening our field, residency merger with AGCME as currently planned, practicing good medicine, yes to all of that.

As for representing to others in the medical field, to patients and the world that we are doctors of Medicine as well as Osteopathy through degree designation and symbolism - I believe it matters a great deal.

And as for the letters being of no importance on the front lines. This is just plain false. I have heard residency director directly state otherwise as I mentioned in a previous post. It matters in terms of where you end up in residency, how you are perceived by other doctors - I had a candid conversation with a few MDs about this who said "honestly yes"- "you kind of look at those letters on the coat and say hmmmmm" whereas the MD you just don't" - this is verbatim what was said and it is true.

Would change to MDO be the same as MD no, and it shouldn't be. The point is an accurate representation of what is emphasized, mastered and adhered to in our profession. In the meantime will I continue being an excellent physician... of course! Will I continue to support strengthening of our field ... of course! It need not be either or... this is an argument of accuracy of ideology and representation.

Putting 'M' in front of our other letters or even switching completely to 'MD' doesn't change the DO history of the schools from which we graduated. Therefore, the bias from which you are suffering with those program directors won't change. So now you have 'MD'... they'll just look at what school you graduated from and say, "Ah... ex-DO". It's the same thing they do with Caribbean schools and lower tier MD schools.

I'm all for improving our curriculum and every aspect of our education. Changing our title to MD or MDO doesn't accomplish this. I am also for making sure I'm up to date on all I need to be despite what our curriculum puts before me. Am I blind to the fact that it takes a little bit more to get into those top programs and fellowships as a DO? No, of course not. I don't have rose-colored glasses when it comes to examining life. But see above... changing the degree designation isn't gonna change that.

Symbols... yes, they can be powerful. But again, I'm in a part of the country where the general population doesn't know what a DO is. My patients see the letters (if they are even paying attention) and hear the nurse call me "Doctor"... they accept that I am a doctor, and we move on. The most important aspect of my job -- patient care -- is unaffected.

So what are we talking about here? Are we talking about being stronger individual doctors? Are we talking about improving the education system? Are we talking about improving patient interaction and care? Again, anything we can do to improve all those things is a-ok in my book. A degree designation change just doesn't accomplish this.

 

[LSU Alex]

Would change to MDO be the same as MD no, and it shouldn't be. The point is an accurate representation of what is emphasized, mastered and adhered to in our profession. In the meantime will I continue being an excellent physician... of course! Will I continue to support strengthening of our field ... of course! It need not be either or... this is an argument of accuracy of ideology and representation.

Let me ask you a couple of questions. I think you said in a previous post that you were almost done with residency. If that's not right, forgive me. But if it is correct, tell me something.

Has your DO designation prevented you from getting a job or job offers? I mean you personally. Or has your DO designation prevented you from acquiring the fellowship you wanted? (That is if you actually wanted one.) Again, I am asking you personally.

Has your DO designation prevented you from delivering excellent healthcare to your patients? Have you suffered distrust or lack of confidence in your abilities from your patients due to your DO designation?

 

[Bones DO]

Sounds like that preceptor revealed a little bit too much about the Force before Bones was ready to accept it. I imagine the rest of the convo went like this:
Bones: "... I... I don't believe it."
Attending: "That is why you fail."

 

[LSU Alex]

I thought you might enjoy that. I've read your story over the past couple of years. I hope you continue to persevere, my friend. You have the right work ethic. Good luck to ya!

 

[NeuroLAX]

I still havent figured out what you think you would gain by going MDO . On a similar note, my GFs PhD program is changing from "Cellular and Molecular Biology" to "Molecular Medicine". Because tacking on "medicine" to things is important to others as well, apparently.

Or at least that WOULD be my opinion if I werent a sad fake medical student typing from his mother's basement (Just throwing that in as an aside to highlight for potential lurkers the notion that if you call a tall guy short or a skinny guy fat.... he cares less than you look stupid. No, that wasnt a grammatical error, btw. Just think about it using >/< signs)

I know this would never fly but I'll play devil's advocate here. What about MD, [insert specialist degree in osteopathic principles and practice]? It could solve many of the concerns/issues with the proposed GME merger, and unification overall, and it looks better than OMD or MDO confused.

 

[sylvanthus]

Terrible idea. Trying to look like we are an MD plus makes us look like tools.

 

[NeuroLAX]

Terrible idea. Trying to look like we are an MD plus makes us look like tools.

Are MD/MBA, MD/MPH, MD/MS, MD/JD, MD/PhD.... or DO/MS, DO/MBA, DO/MPH, DO/PhD not technically forms of [medical degree] plus?

 

[SpecterGT260]

Are MD/MBA, MD/MPH, MD/MS, MD/JD, MD/PhD.... or DO/MS, DO/MBA, DO/MPH, DO/PhD not technically forms of [medical degree] plus?

Yes they are. But DO in and of itself is not. I'm not sure of your point.

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[K31]

Are MD/MBA, MD/MPH, MD/MS, MD/JD, MD/PhD.... or DO/MS, DO/MBA, DO/MPH, DO/PhD not technically forms of [medical degree] plus?

Sure. And if you want to spend a extra year or five in school for those extra letters, you too can be an MD+. But I don't think any of the "MD, DO" proponents are advocating adding another year onto their education to earn a "diploma in osteopathy".

 

[NeuroLAX]

Yes they are. But DO in and of itself is not. I'm not sure of your point.

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Basically, I was curious if there could be a completely unified system of UGME and GME such that training in osteopathic principles and practice could be offered as a specialist-type of education in addition to the MD curriculum. One thing I'm personally confused about is what the AOA would propose to allow MDs to match at what would then be former DO-only programs. Will they require demonstration of competency? What do you even call a MD with pre-GME training (for eligibility) and 3+ years of GME with osteopathic components (assuming they require the MD residents to learn and use OMT)?

Some of the comments regarding the AOA updates have expressed concern over "MDs taking spots away from DOs". However valid these concerns are, don't they pose as a potential problem for AOA-AACOM negotiators who are looking out for DOs? What about concerns that more DOs would choose to steer away from osteopathic board certification? I would hate for these concerns to be contributing factors in spoiling negotiations. Then again, there can be no whining or concern over MDs stealing seats away from DOs (bahaha) if everyone is MD and those that wish to learn and practice OMT gain eligibility to do so through extra UGME study. This could expand the teaching and use of OMT, with more research following (never a bad thing).

Sure. And if you want to spend a extra year or five in school for those extra letters, you too can be an MD+. But I don't think any of the "MD, DO" proponents are advocating adding another year onto their education to earn a "diploma in osteopathy".

I only have 3 hours of OPP per week, so I don't think it would be so much of a burden as to require an extra year of study.

 

[playaodamonth]

Sure. And if you want to spend a extra year or five in school for those extra letters, you too can be an MD+. But I don't think any of the "MD, DO" proponents are advocating adding another year onto their education to earn a "diploma in osteopathy".

If an MD just wants to add extra letters for the sake of adding extra letters, they can take a 2 month OMM course and some crappy exam. boom, MD, DO. And if a DO wants to add an MD to his title, make him take at least the first 2 steps of the USMLE along with the COMLEX. Seems fair in my book

 

[SpecterGT260]

If an MD just wants to add extra letters for the sake of adding extra letters, they can take a 2 month OMM course and some crappy exam. boom, MD, DO. And if a DO wants to add an MD to his title, make him take at least the first 2 steps of the USMLE along with the COMLEX. Seems fair in my book

I don't think so.... The OMM course is not DO-granting as far as I understand. It just gives you a certification in OMM and the ability to bill for it.

Basically, I was curious if there could be a completely unified system of UGME and GME such that training in osteopathic principles and practice could be offered as a specialist-type of education in addition to the MD curriculum. One thing I'm personally confused about is what the AOA would propose to allow MDs to match at what would then be former DO-only programs. Will they require demonstration of competency? What do you even call a MD with pre-GME training (for eligibility) and 3+ years of GME with osteopathic components (assuming they require the MD residents to learn and use OMT)?

Some of the comments regarding the AOA updates have expressed concern over "MDs taking spots away from DOs". However valid these concerns are, don't they pose as a potential problem for AOA-AACOM negotiators who are looking out for DOs? What about concerns that more DOs would choose to steer away from osteopathic board certification? I would hate for these concerns to be contributing factors in spoiling negotiations. Then again, there can be no whining or concern over MDs stealing seats away from DOs (bahaha) if everyone is MD and those that wish to learn and practice OMT gain eligibility to do so through extra UGME study. This could expand the teaching and use of OMT, with more research following (never a bad thing).




I only have 3 hours of OPP per week, so I don't think it would be so much of a burden as to require an extra year of study.

retaining access to ACGME programs *is* "looking out for DOs". You guys seem to forget that what was on the table was complete blockage of DOs from several states from eligibility to apply to fellowships meaning specializing was going to be impossible for any DOs within those states. The AOA doesn't have its own fellowships (or it has very very few, if any).

 

[NeuroLAX]

I don't think so.... The OMM course is not DO-granting as far as I understand. It just gives you a certification in OMM and the ability to bill for it.

Correct, it can't be DO-granting.

retaining access to ACGME programs *is* "looking out for DOs". You guys seem to forget that what was on the table was complete blockage of DOs from several states from eligibility to apply to fellowships meaning specializing was going to be impossible for any DOs within those states. The AOA doesn't have its own fellowships (or it has very very few, if any).

Where did you hear that it would only affect several states? I was under the impression that it was across the board. I guess I don't see how ACGME restrictions on fellowships would only apply to certain states vs all of them. I'm well aware of the relative paucity and complete lack of certain residency opportunities in the DO world. Luckily, I have no interest in them.

 

[playaodamonth]

I don't think so.... The OMM course is not DO-granting as far as I understand. It just gives you a certification in OMM and the ability to bill for it.
.

I'm not talking about the current system. I'm saying in the future, if there ever is a "degree-change", make it so an MD can just take a 2 month OMM course and an exam to get the DO initials added on. And have the DO take some parts of the USMLE along with the COMLEX. Not saying it can be done now.

 

[DrBumblebee]

Sure. And if you want to spend a extra year or five in school for those extra letters, you too can be an MD+. But I don't think any of the "MD, DO" proponents are advocating adding another year onto their education to earn a "diploma in osteopathy".

You know what, this might turn out to be a great idea. IMHO, it's one of the best ways that AOA might consider not only to survive but also to absolve itself from rumors.

Let's think about it: Commission on Osteopathic College Accreditation (COCA), which accredits DO schools, might let the DO schools give the M.D. degree to tune up with the MD schools giving the MD degree. However, on top of this, if the student shows an extra effort and opts for to complete a 300-400 hours in OMM training at his DO school, then he could also be given an addtional degree, i.e. D.O., after his MD degree, i.e. MD, DO (that would make up the MD+ at the end.)

This way AOA wil not only prove that its DO schools have been on par with the MD schools in the States but also would it let its DO schools to provide with yet an additional degree. This alone would be enought to keep the DO schools unique as they'd be the only institutions providing with the necessary OMM training to get the DO degree on top of the MD degree in the US.

MD schools nowadays provide their students with J.D., M.B.A., and M.A. degrees by even working with separate institutions. The same thing can definitely be done with the DO schools to let their students to earn the DO degree if they opt for it like they opt for any other additional degree.

This way, we'll be unified and standardized smoothly, which is a good thing.

 

[SpecterGT260]

You know what, this might turn out to be a great idea. IMHO, it's one of the best ways that AOA might consider not only to survive but also to absolve itself from rumors.

Let's think about it: Commission on Osteopathic College Accreditation (COCA), which accredits DO schools, might let the DO schools give the M.D. degree to tune up with the MD schools giving the MD degree. However, on top of this, if the student shows an extra effort and opts for to complete a 300-400 hours in OMM training at his DO school, then he could also be given an addtional degree, i.e. D.O., after his MD degree, i.e. MD, DO (that would make up the MD+ at the end.)

This way AOA wil not only prove that its DO schools have been on par with the MD schools in the States but also would it let its DO schools to provide with yet an additional degree. This alone would be enought to keep the DO schools unique as they'd be the only institutions providing with the necessary OMM training to get the DO degree on top of the MD degree in the US.

MD schools nowadays provide their students with J.D., M.B.A., and M.A. degrees by even working with separate institutions. The same thing can definitely be done with the DO schools to let their students to earn the DO degree if they opt for it like they opt for any other additional degree.

This way, we'll be unified and standardized smoothly, which is a good thing.

You keep forgetting.... COCA can't do this. They are endowed with the power to accredit institutions with the ability to grant the "DO" degree, not "Medical degree of indeterminant title". If COCA, for example, were to send a document over to PCOM today saying "Hey yall! You can start granting MD degrees!" and PCOM were to do so, all degrees would be unrecognized in every state in the USA. Graduates would not be eligible to enter residency match and would therefore be ineligible for license. For the same reason that I cannot grant MD degrees out of my apartment, COCA can't do it, either. The laws in each state recognize specific degrees from specific institutions, not just the institution's overall ability to grant medical degrees. I'm not 100% on this last part but I suspect DO schools that switched their lettering would be treated legally like foreign medical schools which have to how a level of adherence to US standards in order for graduates to be considered (if the school is not explicitly listed somewhere in the regulations). Remember the california fiasco.

What you are describing requires a change in thought on the part of legislators, not accreditation boards. You have to keep in mind that the accreditation boards are not government entities. They are private and act as "consultants" to legislators. I can't find the specifics but I suspect CMS is at the top of the pyramid here with the AMA and AOA each playing liaison between it and their respective accreditation board.

 

[as1212559]

I feel like there are 5 or 6 of these circular shytstorms of a thread going on right now. Could we perhaps merge them all into one?


















































































































































and then lock it?

 

[TriagePreMed]

Sure. And if you want to spend a extra year or five in school for those extra letters, you too can be an MD+. But I don't think any of the "MD, DO" proponents are advocating adding another year onto their education to earn a "diploma in osteopathy".

Why does it need to be an extra year for it to be a diploma? You could technically attach things like an associates or bachelors degree to your name. I still think MDO makes more sense because it distinguishes medically trained DO's from foreign train manipulators.

 

[SpecterGT260]

Why does it need to be an extra year for it to be a diploma? You could technically attach things like an associates or bachelors degree to your name. I still think MDO makes more sense because it distinguishes medically trained DO's from foreign train manipulators.

I am not aware of any foreign "DOs" who are not medically trained. There are some foreign countries in which DOs (which are still trained here in the vast majority of cases) are only allowed to do manipulations.... Unless you mean Canada, in which case they are accredited by the same org that does US schools.

 

[se20001984]

I feel like there are 5 or 6 of these circular shytstorms of a thread going on right now. Could we perhaps merge them all into one?


















































































































































and then lock it?

^^ this man will run for AOA one day...

 

[Drrrrrr. Celty]

I am not aware of any foreign "DOs" who are not medically trained. There are some foreign countries in which DOs (which are still trained here in the vast majority of cases) are only allowed to do manipulations.... Unless you mean Canada, in which case they are accredited by the same org that does US schools.

American DOs or etc opened up DO schools in England that are purely manipulation based. So they are given the similar doctor or osteopathic medicine degree.
Either way, no one is advocating changing the degree but rather just changing the initials to MD-O/ M.DO/ MDO. Which isn't really changing the degree.

 

[se20001984]

oohhh i like the MD-O, never seen that 1 before

then in the future it will be MD------------------------------------------------------------O

LOL

 

[SpecterGT260]

This is silly

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[Ost3oclast]

This is silly

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Yeah....

 

[as1212559]

oohhh i like the MD-O, never seen that 1 before

then in the future it will be MD------------------------------------------------------------O

LOL

I lol'd.

Also the AOA wud never elect me bcuz I'd wreck them 1v1.

 

[docnotsopc]

I lol'd.

Also the AOA wud never elect me bcuz I'd wreck them 1v1.

 

[Osteotastic]

This is silly

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Are letters the end all be all? No, of course they are not the MOST important. The most important thing is the time you put in, your dedication and how you care for your patients. I agree with that whole - heartedly and the thing I love best about my career is taking care of my patients. I get terrific reviews from them and getting in to see me is always competitive now that I have a very loyal patient following.

That said. And all of the comments about strengthening our curriculum and our profession being of highest value. Yes Yes and more Yes. What I am talking about is a symbolic change that represents a guiding ideology. Symbolism is very very important. It represents the values of your field and what your expertise are. Right now our designation is symbolic and signifies that we are doctors of Osteopathy. I don't know about other doctors in practice/residency here but I don't practice Osteopathy. I practice medicine. I believe our designation should signify this. I'm ok with leaving the O in there, I would like a symbolic representation that what we practice and learn however is not just O but very much M.

As for the rest of strengthening our field, residency merger with AGCME as currently planned, practicing good medicine, yes to all of that.

As for representing to others in the medical field, to patients and the world that we are doctors of Medicine as well as Osteopathy through degree designation and symbolism - I believe it matters a great deal.

The point is an accurate representation of what is emphasized, mastered and adhered to in our profession. In the meantime will I continue being an excellent physician... of course! Will I continue to support strengthening of our field ... of course! It need not be either or... this is an argument of accuracy of ideology and representation




*Sorry, no time for a more fresh response at moment, swamped with documentation this eve - oh the joy of documentation!

 

[SpecterGT260]

All I heard there was an attempt to equate new letters with revamped and improved curriculum. Those things aren't connected......

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[LovelyBRass]

I really don't understand why we can't all just have the same letters. You don't need special letters just because you learned OMM... as has been pointed out, even Harvard offers OMT if you're interested. Training is different between every school and each focuses on something different or special, which may or may not be organized - that doesn't mean you get a special degree for it.

If we're all "equal," then we should all have the SAME degree and be under the same accrediting body. If we aren't, then /thread. There's no reason to have a separate degree designation because you learned OMT when we are all physicians practicing under the same licensure.

 

[group_theory]

First - only AOA approved schools (currently all in the US) are accredited to train osteopathic physicians (with the full scope and practice of medicine and osteopathy). There are no schools outside the US that provide the same scope of training. The degree "Doctor of Osteopathic Medicine" is only given in the US.

Outside the US, regulation of DO (pure osteopathy) is up to each country. Some are recognized (UK), while others are not (Canada). Upon completion of their studies, they use the title "DO" but do not obtain a Doctor of Osteopathic Medicine or even Doctor of Osteopathy - it's a "Diploma of Osteopathy". Some schools are associated with a university and their degrees are validated by a university (for example, British College of Osteopathic Medicine awards the Masters of Osteopathy that is validated by Plymouth University). There are some osteopathy schools in Europe that will teach and train osteopathy (and award the DO - diploma of osteopathy) to physicians, thus creating their own version of "osteopathic physicians" - and are true "MD, DO" (although not necessary MD but whatever their medical degree designation is - MBBS, MBBCh, Dr.med., etc)

Those trained in osteopathy outside the US cannot practice osteopathic medicine or even "osteopathy" in the US since the practice of osteopathy is regulated by the health boards of each state (and all require educational training approved by the AOA)

Which brings up the second point - the ability to practice medicine and surgery without restrictions is up to each individual states (and territories). The health-related boards (board of medicine, board of osteopathic medicine, etc) all have to practice within the laws passed by the state. Some laws states that DOs must specifically have graduated from an approved accrediting agency (AOA) in order to get licensed, while others require that graduates possess the "Doctor of Osteopathy" or "Doctor of Osteopathic Medicine" degree from an AOA approved school. So if the AOA decides to allow DO schools to grant MD degrees, some states will not be an issue since the statues in those states do not specify "DO" but just be a graduate of an AOA approved schools. Other states can cause a problem because you won't have a DO. You can try to get licensed via the MD route but since most states require that US graduates applying for licensure must have accreditation from the LCME (some states word it as "AMA and/or its successor"). You can't apply as a foreign graduate because you're not a foreign graduate - you went to a US school (that is not accredited by LCME).

Florida - 459.0055&#8195;General licensure requirements
(k)&#8195;Demonstrate that he or she is a graduate of a medical college recognized and approved by the American Osteopathic Association;
(l)&#8195;Demonstrate that she or he has successfully completed a resident internship of not less than 12 months in a hospital approved for this purpose by the Board of Trustees of the American Osteopathic Association or any other internship program approved by the board upon a showing of good cause by the applicant. This requirement may be waived for an applicant who matriculated in a college of osteopathic medicine during or before 1948; and

Tennessee Osteopathic Board
1050-02-.03 LICENSURE PROCESS. To practice osteopathic medicine in Tennessee, a person must possess a lawfully issued license from the Board. The procedure for obtaining a license is as follows:
(c) A graduate transcript from an accredited osteopathic medical school in good standing
with the American Osteopathic Association at the time of graduation (or its successor).
The transcript must be submitted directly from the school to the Board Administrative
Office. The transcript must show that the degree has been conferred based upon the
applicant’s good repute and personal attendance and must carry the official seal of the
institution.



So it is not clear-cut if a AOA approved schools starts to award the MD degree whether it will affect licensure.


So the third point is - can schools be allowed to award the MD degree? Believe it or not, it's not up to the AOA (or LCME) what degrees are awarded - the power to confer degrees (and the types of degree) is also up to the state government (usually the state legislature and state executive branches will appoint a state agency to oversee this). The state agency will allow the board of trustees (or board of governors) to grant degrees. Hence why your diploma says "The board of trustees, by the power invested in the state of X, grants .... degree". So the schools will have to apply to their state's education department (or agency) for permission to grant the MD degree. And some DO schools actually already have permission from the state to grant the MD degree. (Kirksville's original charter (American School of Osteopathy) from the state allowed it to confer the Doctor of Medicine degree, but the trustees decided to award the Diploma of Osteopathy instead).

The question becomes - if the LCME accredits a DO school, it doesn't mean that the school can give the MD degree (since the state will have to give that power) - but are you an osteopathic physician or allopathic physician (from an LCME accredited school) for purpose of licensure? (likewise, if the AOA accredits an LCME/MD school, can their graduates apply for licensure through the osteopathic physician pathway)?

Anyway, this is a tangent but wanted to add some regulatory clarity to the above discussions

 

[DocVapor]

oohhh i like the MD-O, never seen that 1 before

then in the future it will be MD------------------------------------------------------------O

LOL

So to take this idea a step further to make it even easier to tell who the "big boys" are, maybe just start with the DO degree, then add an "=" for each year of internship/residency/fellowship. And since the OMM is really a small portion, make it a lowercase o?

So it would look like this:

GP: DO=o
FP: DO===o
Peds: DO===o
Gas: DO====o
Neuro: DO====o
IM/EM: DO=====o
Gen Surg: DO======o
Neurosurg: DO=======o
NS Subspec: DO========o


Size does matter.

 

[as1212559]

So to take this idea a step further to make it even easier to tell who the "big boys" are, maybe just start with the DO degree, then add an "=" for each year of internship/residency/fellowship. And since the OMM is really a small portion, make it a lowercase o?

So it would look like this:

GP: DO=o
FP: DO===o
Peds: DO===o
Gas: DO====o
Neuro: DO====o
IM/EM: DO=====o
Gen Surg: DO======o
Neurosurg: DO=======o
NS Subspec: DO========o


Size does matter.

obviously ortho = DO===============================0

 

[se20001984]

8========================================>

thats a penis if you didnt get it

 

[group_theory]

Closing.