cv/resume

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bambi

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Not sure if this is the right place to ask but here goes- I'm a UK student thinking of applying for jobs in the US when the time comes. I know my cv is competitive for UK jobs but we are generally younger when we apply for jobs and have had less post-highschool education so I don't know if a bit less is expected from us. Basically I have no real idea what the average/above average US applicant has on their resume upon graduation? Obviously there is no point in me applying if my cv is way below the US standard so I was wondering what sort of stuff you guys have? I know you need a good USMLE score and all that, I'm just wondering about the other stuff. Do you all have research and publications? The main things I'm wondering about are; research, publications, audits, presentations, scholarships, prizes, teaching experience, extra curriculars and anything else you think is important. Thanks

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Which specialt:thumbup:(ies) are you applying for?

For IMGs like yourself, board scores are very important. Number of years since graduation is too. Things like publications, etc. are good to have, more so for competitive specialties.
 
If I apply it will almost definitely be for neurosurgery. Like I said I know I need good scores, that sort of thing is not a problem. What I need to know about is the other stuff.

So far I have a (good) degree, some lab research, a scholarship from the royal college of surgeons of England, I contributed to a book, I'm currently working on an audit in neurosurgery which will hopefully be published. We also have to do special study modules, at the end of which you do a literature review, here it counts for something, not sure about over there, I have done 2 so far, 1 in general surgery, 1 in plastic surgery and will do 1 more. By the time I graduate I will have done another 3 audits, (2 more in neurosurgery, 1 in something else). I will also have done a clinical research project in neurosurgery which will again hopefully be published or presented at a national conference. I will be doing a 2 month elective in the US, haven't quite decided where. I also teach clinical skills to 3rd years and am a mentor to younger students. I'm a member of our surgical society and was the course rep during my first degree. I have done voluntary work in the Ukraine hospital of radiation medicine, worked with young offenders, worked in a hospice etc.

Grade-wise I am in the top quartile of my year and get lots of honours, we don't get any more of a breakdown than that. I keep putting off the USMLE but will do it eventually, I know I need a great score.

Is this the sort of stuff you guys have or not?
 
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The only thing thats significant is research that is published in peer reviewed journals. Presentations, posters, etc... count just a little. Other things like volunteer work are basically filler, you should have them but theyre given only a passing glance. Your goals should be top notch USMLE scores plus as many publications, preferably in neurosurgery, as possible. Also will need us clinical experience and good letters of recommendation. That with a lot of luck, maybe some connections, will get you in.
 
So do all US grads have loads of publications?
 
So do all US grads have loads of publications?

Not usually. Overall its rather rare. In a specialty like neurosurgery however, it is more common. I'd say the majority will have a publication of some sort. Very few, I'd say less than 10%, will have multiple first author publications. As an IMG however, you'll need to be outperforming us grads in this area.
 
I was just wondering though, if only publications really count, and grades etc, how do you separate out the applicants? Surely the grades are very similar among those applying for the same jobs?
 
I am an FMG neurologist (not a neurosurgeon) but work closely with them. I am also working towards an endovascular fellowship. I have worked in the UK for 10 months (as an IMG) before moving here. I also know an Indian neurosurgery resident who was able to get into a well known neurosurgery program. I also know of a Phillipino resident who was in that program (he was a green card holder) but was fired after his PGY-2 neurosurgery year for being inefficient.
The gist for FMGs trying for neurosurgery is:

It is extremely competitive. Less than 5% of the applicants MATCH.
You will need quite a few publications & presentations at national or international conferences.
You will need USMLE scores in the 90s without attempts.
You will need excellent LORs.
You may need to work in a research lab in a well known neurosurgery program in the US for a couple of years before you break into a residency.
You may need some contacts & networking.
You will need basic postgraduate training in neurosurgery in your home country before coming to the US. I have never heard of a medical student FMG getting into neurosurgery in the US, one may if he has done some groundbreaking research or worked with the ex-President of the AANS in the Himalayas (like a Nepalese MBBS I have heard of did. He matched with scores of 77/77).

The Indian resident I knew had all of these & had done a research fellowship in Japan, another fellowship in a third country & had spent 1-2 years in the US doing research.
Even with all this & being a good & deserving candidate the chances of matching are 25-50%.

US neurosurgery grads in my program were type A personalities & difficult to get along with (barring few). About 25% were from neurosciences backgrounds. About 15-25% had done MD/PhDs before starting residencies. About 25% had at least 1 publication, some had them as first authors.

Residency is literally inhuman. 8-16hr days are common for 7 years. This is the only specialty legally allowed to have 88hr/wk as compared to 80hr/wk for residency training.

Most neurosurgeons, including a few senior residents were divorced. They generally seemed an unhappy lot, though their was a lot of bravado & back slapping amongst them. A few of them were nice regardless.

Some of the nicer residents left after the first year to do anaesthesia or ER-trauma.

I would think twice before going into it.
 
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I was just wondering though, if only publications really count, and grades etc, how do you separate out the applicants? Surely the grades are very similar among those applying for the same jobs?

Its quite enough. Step scores, grades and research get you an interview, then your personality gets you the spot. Also I am assuming by job you mean residency.
 
I am an FMG neurologist (not a neurosurgeon) but work closely with them. I am also working towards an endovascular fellowship. I have worked in the UK for 10 months (as an IMG) before moving here. I also know an Indian neurosurgery resident who was able to get into a well known neurosurgery program. I also know of a Phillipino resident who was in that program (he was a green card holder) but was fired after his PGY-2 neurosurgery year for being inefficient.
The gist for FMGs trying for neurosurgery is:

It is extremely competitive. Less than 5% of the applicants MATCH.
You will need quite a few publications & presentations at national or international conferences.
You will need USMLE scores in the 90s without attempts.
You will need excellent LORs.
You may need to work in a research lab in a well known neurosurgery program in the US for a couple of years before you break into a residency.
You may need some contacts & networking.
You will need basic postgraduate training in neurosurgery in your home country before coming to the US. I have never heard of a medical student FMG getting into neurosurgery in the US, one may if he has done some groundbreaking research or worked with the ex-President of the AANS in the Himalayas (like a Nepalese MBBS I have heard of did. He matched with scores of 77/77).

The Indian resident I knew had all of these & had done a research fellowship in Japan, another fellowship in a third country & had spent 1-2 years in the US doing research.
Even with all this & being a good & deserving candidate the chances of matching are 25-50%.

US neurosurgery grads in my program were type A personalities & difficult to get along with (barring few). About 25% were from neurosciences backgrounds. About 15-25% had done MD/PhDs before starting residencies. About 25% had at least 1 publication, some had them as first authors.

Residency is literally inhuman. 8-16hr days are common for 7 years. This is the only specialty legally allowed to have 88hr/wk as compared to 80hr/wk for residency training.

Most neurosurgeons, including a few senior residents were divorced. They generally seemed an unhappy lot, though their was a lot of bravado & back slapping amongst them. A few of them were nice regardless.

Some of the nicer residents left after the first year to do anaesthesia or ER-trauma.

I would think twice before going into it.

Hmm, not sure how true some of this is to be honest, I have seen some stats that say pretty different things though obviously I understand that it will be really difficult. Yes I would be an IMG but from what I have heard UK IMGs fair pretty well compared to others.

Of the few neurosurgery residencies I have looked at, several have a significant proportion (~10%) of IMGs. Doing basic neurosurg training in my home country before applying would be totally pointless, our training is equal to that in the US though we go about it in a slightly different way, whether or not I will go to the US will be based more on other factors rather than just medicine.

As for telling me to consider something else, thanks and I don't mean to sound rude but I'm not stupid, I am well aware of the hours etc

A USMLE score in the 90s will not be a problem, don't mean to sound like a **** but it really wont be.
 
Its quite enough. Step scores, grades and research get you an interview, then your personality gets you the spot. Also I am assuming by job you mean residency.

You say personality gets you the job, I'm not surprised but what do they look for? Are they looking for the super arrogant that will do whatever they can to be the best and thus end up doing loads of research etc or do they actually want nice people?
 
You say personality gets you the job, I'm not surprised but what do they look for? Are they looking for the super arrogant that will do whatever they can to be the best and thus end up doing loads of research etc or do they actually want nice people?

For neurosurgery, if you're willing to work hard, arrogance will be tolerated more so than in other specialties. However it's still preferable to be hard working and easy to get along with. As an IMG you don't want to give them any reason to reject you, so be nice on interview day.

Also please don't get into the habit of using the two digit score USMLE score like a lot of IMG's do. A 90 on the usmle is a below average score, a 99 can be anything from a good score (238) to an extraordinary score (270+). Just use the 3 digit score, and shoot for >250.

Also I hope that you will not need the program to deal with VISA issues as they don't really want to do that.
 
Yeah I know, I just used the 2 digit because that's what the other poster used, I will indeed be aiming for >250. Thanks
 
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Believe me, I have trained in the UK & the US. For the same branches, the training is not "the same" in the UK (despite the stiff upper lip & all that). There are no EU work directives governing resident/SHO work hours here. There are no breaks for sleep during call. Nor is there an NHS governed rationing of treatment. You will see ample 80yr olds going to the OR.

No 48 hr weeks & q6 calls.
No free weekends.
No A2 or B1 paybands.
& no paid for BMWs to drive during training.
There is a huge difference between training in the US & UK. This is gonna be real training where you will work your butt off if you get a position.
 
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Believe me, I have trained in the UK & the US. For the same branches, the training is not "the same" in the UK (despite the stiff upper lip & all that). There are no EU work directives governing resident/SHO work hours here. There are no breaks for sleep during call. Nor is there an NHS governed rationing of treatment. You will see ample 80yr olds going to the OR.

No 48 hr weeks & q6 calls.
No free weekends.
No A2 or B1 paybands.
& no paid for BMWs to drive during training.
There is a huge difference between training in the US & UK. This is gonna be real training where you will work your butt off if you get a position.

By the same I mean the outcome is the same. It takes longer here because of the stupid EWTD but then end result is the same.

Your post actually shows how little you know about the training in the UK. Paid for BMWs? In the UK? Are you out of your mind? Also, although everything is meant to be 48 hours, that rarely happens, and it certainly doesn't in surgery, my bf still does 72 and 48hour oncalls frequently not to mention the rest of the working week.

Oh and we have plenty of 80 year olds going to the OR too, in fact the last surgery I was in the patient was 96.

As for the pay, our basic F1 is something like 21K, yes banding affects salary but lots of jobs are unbanded. Also, your money goes further, you get all kinds of crap we don't, we get our salary, that's it, you lot get all kinds of financial perks, memberships paid for etc. Granted I have only looked at these details for a few residencies but no job here gives you any of those sort of perks and every job over there I looked at does. Also cost of living is on average (I say average as obviously certain places out there are very expensive) higher here and we have a lot less to actually live on. And finally you end up making several times what we do in pretty much every specialty.
 
Many persons advising you here are medical students who dont have much of an idea of whats in store in the selecion process. UK training has no edge over any other kind of training from anywhere else in the world, specially in surgical branches. Residents in many 3rd world training centers have a higher case load & more experience under their belt before coming over to the UK or the US. This reflects in their confidence in operating & post-op management. Maybe you havent seen this as the higher specialties in UK are very prejudiced in taking foreigners & you may not have come across foreign trained surgeons in your neurosurgical training. Neurosurgeons from Brazil, India or Nigeria are usually amongst the better students in their class & in no way inferior, they may have better OR skills than those in the UK.

Here in the US, 80 hrs is the limit for medical residencies, with several of them doing a 100-110 hrs in the busier programs. It is a little higher for surgical residencies, usually 90-120. Neurosurgery is legally allowed to have 88hrs per week but end up doing 110-150hrs.

Granted things have changed in the UK since I left in 2004. But the hrs are still far less than here, regardless of how much you want to exaggerate them. The pay is still much higher than here & it is not as expensive to live there compared to the US. The SHOs there get paid at least twice as high for half as much work-about 4 times higher per hour after taxes & the UK is 1.5-2 times as expensive as the US (not taking into account the more expensive cities-NY, Chicago, LA, SF, Philadelphia etc. which can be as expensive as the UK). Heck, I bought my first car in the US with a full down payment from the $33,000 I had saved in the 10 months I worked in the UK on an A2/B1 band. I didnt have to break a sweat to save that amount. I did no locum work to earn this. There is no way you can make that kind of money in the US, even if you moonlight; assuming you can get an H-1 visa from a university NSx program on which you are allowed to moonlight after 1 yr training.

Whatever "perks" you are talking about are pretty much non-existent here. Maybe a $500-1000 book fund/residency (all 3/7 for NSx years) or a journal subscription if in one of the University programs (amounting to a couple of hundred bucks an year) but nothing more. Such pittance of a perk is available even in the UK as free hospital parking (not available in most US programs amounting to 20 to 70 bucks per month), cheaper health deductions for the NHS, shorter driving distances to work & for pleasure ( I would drive 17 miles ONE way to live in a good neighbourhood during my residency), cheaper public transport (British Rail is pretty cheap when you compare it to flying anywhere in the US for holidays, interviews or meetings) & cheaper rent unless you are living in central London. There is almost no hospital housing in the US barring a few NY programs where you can get cockroach & rat (yes I mean RAT) infested hovels for $150 cheaper than the best basement studios. Renting in and around Manhattan, Long Island, Chicago or LA/SF can be a painful drain on your stipend. Many US grads have a loan out if they want to rent a good apartment.

Owning a car in the bigger cities can also be a drain, specially with insurance running into a couple of hundred a month for the first few years. Barring a few of the larger cities, public transport is non-existent. Some of the larger cities like Chicago have a very inadequate public transport system. You can end up covering 2-3 hospitals anywhere from a couple of miles to 25 miles apart. You will need a car.

All FMGs I have seen in NSx are from the 3rd world, though I may not be exposed to all the programs. Almost all of them that I know had basic NSx training from their home country (post-graduate) & were repeating their residencies here. They had loads of research in Japan, Singapore or Australia & quite a few publications.

And yes I had a sporty little four door 3 series burgundy BMW in Bristol which I had to trade for a staid grey 4-cyl Honda Accord when I moved to the US. My Irish cottage-mate had a 6 cyl metallic champagne VW GTX. Not to speak of the Singapoean GF I had to trade in for a wife here!!! I cant put up with the snooty American girls (most, not all).

US docs do make a lot more than their European/UK counterparts, but at the cost of a much busier & tense lifestyle. I am not discouraging you from coming here. I am here myself after being in the UK. But it was more for want of better training opportunities in good centers. Like I said before, the UK needs to grow out of its colonial mindset vis-a-vis foreign workers. In the US things are not perfect, but still more fair than in Europe. Your reasons for moving here seem to be monetary, but you will have a much worse life & will be in the courts more often.

But then, I guess you know better. Maybe the Americans have a different yardstick for the their special friends, the Brits.

Best of luck, anyways.
Cheers
 
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Many persons advising you here are medical students who dont have much of an idea of whats in store in the selecion process. UK training has no edge over any other kind of training from anywhere else in the world, specially in surgical branches. Residents in many 3rd world training centers have a higher case load & more experience under their belt before coming over to the UK or the US. This reflects in their confidence in operating & post-op management. Maybe you havent seen this as the higher specialties in UK are very prejudiced in taking foreigners & you may not have come across foreign trained surgeons in your neurosurgical training. Neurosurgeons from Brazil, India or Nigeria are usually amongst the better students in their class & in no way inferior, they may have better OR skills than those in the UK.

Here in the US, 80 hrs is the limit for medical residencies, with several of them doing a 100-110 hrs in the busier programs. It is a little higher for surgical residencies, usually 90-120. Neurosurgery is legally allowed to have 88hrs per week but end up doing 110-150hrs.

Granted things have changed in the UK since I left in 2004. But the hrs are still far less than here, regardless of how much you want to exaggerate them. The pay is still much higher than here & it is not as expensive to live there compared to the US. The SHOs there get paid at least twice as high for half as much work-about 4 times higher per hour after taxes & the UK is 1.5-2 times as expensive as the US (not taking into account the more expensive cities-NY, Chicago, LA, SF, Philadelphia etc. which can be as expensive as the UK). Heck, I bought my first car in the US with a full down payment from the $33,000 I had saved in the 10 months I worked in the UK on an A2/B1 band. I didnt have to break a sweat to save that amount. I did no locum work to earn this. There is no way you can make that kind of money in the US, even if you moonlight; assuming you can get an H-1 visa from a university NSx program on which you are allowed to moonlight after 1 yr training.

Whatever "perks" you are talking about are pretty much non-existent here. Maybe a $500-1000 book fund/residency (all 3/7 for NSx years) or a journal subscription if in one of the University programs (amounting to a couple of hundred bucks an year) but nothing more. Such pittance of a perk is available even in the UK as free hospital parking (not available in most US programs amounting to 20 to 70 bucks per month), cheaper health deductions for the NHS, shorter driving distances to work & for pleasure ( I would drive 17 miles ONE way to live in a good neighbourhood during my residency), cheaper public transport (British Rail is pretty cheap when you compare it to flying anywhere in the US for holidays, interviews or meetings) & cheaper rent unless you are living in central London. There is almost no hospital housing in the US barring a few NY programs where you can get cockroach & rat (yes I mean RAT) infested hovels for $150 cheaper than the best basement studios. Renting in and around Manhattan, Long Island, Chicago or LA/SF can be a painful drain on your stipend. Many US grads have a loan out if they want to rent a good apartment.

Owning a car in the bigger cities can also be a drain, specially with insurance running into a couple of hundred a month for the first few years. Barring a few of the larger cities, public transport is non-existent. Some of the larger cities like Chicago have a very inadequate public transport system. You can end up covering 2-3 hospitals anywhere from a couple of miles to 25 miles apart. You will need a car.

All FMGs I have seen in NSx are from the 3rd world, though I may not be exposed to all the programs. Almost all of them that I know had basic NSx training from their home country (post-graduate) & were repeating their residencies here. They had loads of research in Japan, Singapore or Australia & quite a few publications.

And yes I had a sporty little four door 3 series burgundy BMW in Bristol which I had to trade for a staid grey 4-cyl Honda Accord when I moved to the US. My Irish cottage-mate had a 6 cyl metallic champagne VW GTX. Not to speak of the Singapoean GF I had to trade in for a wife here!!! I cant put up with the snooty American girls (most, not all).

US docs do make a lot more than their European/UK counterparts, but at the cost of a much busier & tense lifestyle. I am not discouraging you from coming here. I am here myself after being in the UK. But it was more for want of better training opportunities in good centers. Like I said before, the UK needs to grow out of its colonial mindset vis-a-vis foreign workers. In the US things are not perfect, but still more fair than in Europe. Your reasons for moving here seem to be monetary, but you will have a much worse life & will be in the courts more often.

But then, I guess you know better. Maybe the Americans have a different yardstick for the their special friends, the Brits.

Best of luck, anyways.
Cheers

Did you actually even bother to read what I wrote? I know the hours aren't the same which is why it takes longer here to get to consultant level but you are kidding yourself if you think it is ever actually 48 hours and like I said at the end of it all, things are equal.

No one who is advising me is a med student, my bf is a reg as are all his friends, I'm pretty pally with plenty of consultants too thanks.

You really are out of your mind saying that the UK is prejudice against foreign trained drs, the % of foreigners is a hell of a lot higher than it is over there. Even with the new EU grad rules the NHS is full of foreign grads. You think the US is more fair to foreigners? Again, you are crazy, to get the same job as a US grad a foreign grad has to be superior, in the UK, everyone is equal, the best person gets the job. The EU thing has changed things a bit but that was because there weren't enough jobs for UK grads, you think the US would allow any foreigners at all if there weren't enough jobs for its own grads?

Oh and having a higher case load in a 3rd world country doesn't automatically make you better. Variety, proper training etc are what make you a good overall surgeon. Saying I would need neuro training here before going there like the 3rd world drs is ridiculous. You are comparing British medical education to that of the 3rd world? I really am doubting you are who you say you are at this point. British education, medical and otherwise is, and always has been among the best in the world.

As for the money stuff, again, total nonsense. Your starting salary is a hell of a lot higher and if you think it's not more expensive here than it is there (excluding a few major cities) then I hope you have a great accountant because you really shouldn't be left on your own to deal with money. Also, while denying you have any sort of financial perks you admitted to having them. You think we get money for books, journals? We don't! And no, we don't get free car parking either.

I honestly don't know why you keep replying to this when everything you say is such nonsense.
 
Yeah right. And you are the one who sits & judges how fair the UK system is towards foreigners. Which experience are you speaking from?? Seeing foreigners working around you??

What was all the hullabaloo in the press by the 5000-12000 foreign Drs who were without jobs after having passed their PLAB back in 2006?? How come the GMC made hay administering them exams then certifying them & the Home Department went to the extent of changing work visa rules so that foreigner workers had to pay 250 pounds each time they had to extend visas every 6 months (unlike before). And at the end of this people sat around, went for interviews & ended up not getting jobs or doing non-training jobs. Then just about all of them had to go back in 2007 because the Brit graduates leaving for Australia & NZ for lack of jobs had to be recruited first before foreign Drs who were robbed clean by the UK government.

I have personally been offered a job after an interview,then asked to leave when the Trust found out they had recruited 11 instead of 10 SHOs. Then I was shamelessly asked to rejoin when one of the recruited SHOs left a month later. Could this happen to a UK graduate??

Equal Opportuinities my ass.


And for your information,twit, the most successful FMGs in the US are from India, China, Pakistan & Latin America in that order for the last 25years running. I think all these have "3rd world" training. Every 5th FMG in this country is Indian by AMA statistics. Indians make the largest bunch of foreign Drs in virtually every country-US, UK, Australia, NZ, Ireland, Singapore, Sweden, etc. besides a host of African & Arab states. Despite this there is no shortage of Drs in India (there is a distribution problem because of lack of facilities in the rural areas, a la the US & UK) but the country has an abundance of physicians.

If third world education is so much worse than the Brit medical education system, how come they gave your graduates a run for their money, making them scoot to the Australian outback to take up family medicine jobs?

You are an ignorant twit living on an island surrounded by salt water with other ignoramus ignorants advising you. It is good that you are having grandiose ideas about doing Neurosurgery right out of med school in the US.

When I said medical students, I meant the people advising you on this forum, not your personal advisors back home. Besides, neither your BF nor your "Consultant" pals are here in the US. They havent a blooming idea of what it is out here. I will leave you to your fantasies & illusions.

Best of luck again despite everything.
 
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This started out as such a friendly thread. :eek:
 
Still wanna go into neurosurgery? Day in and day out for 7 years will be with these type of people lol. To all, go into a specialty so you can keep your wife and see your kids once in a while, its JUST a job, not your life... LOL :p
 
Bambi should follow her passions!
 
To the OP: this is just a side note, and it's probably not going to really effect you. However, another reason why our physicians receive better compensation is partially due to the fact that they have massive debt once they get to residency (>$100,000 USD = 61,850 GBP). I have met numerous doctors that said it took them around 15 years to fully pay off their undergrad/med school loans. I say this, because it is my understanding that college in the UK is free for its citizens, but correct me if I'm wrong. Other than that, it sounds like the long hours and call q3 aren't an issue for you which is good to know before diving into this specialty. Good luck to you, and as long as you're willing to put in the work I think you'll be fine.
 
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