Current Views of Chiropractic; What Do You See?

[KKat]

A chiropractor told a someone with FAP not to have a colectomy a GI doc recommended after finding several adenomatous polyps on colonoscopy. He also said that it could be cured through chiropractic care. That's just irresponsible and thankfully the person did not listen, otherwise they would have colon cancer. What scares me is that there may be some people who would actually believe this.

Some DCs may not be like this but ones like this guy will say anything to get someone signed up for a expensive treatment plan.

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[IlDestriero]

Lots of people don't trust physicians very much. I am quite certain that they are regularly mislead by these non physician charlatans. After all, they they can cure almost anything with some regular laying on of hands. Just like the crystal healer who shares space with the fortune teller down the road.

 

[gettheleadout]

I'm noticing a trend here where facetguy rejects an argument by cdmguy, cdmguy responds with sources and citations, and facetguy ignores it and moves on.

Points are awarded to cdmguy, facetguy is deferred from the lightning round.

 

[yappy]

Most interesting thing I've heard from a student chiro is that they can "heal" autism via manipulation.

 

[facetguy]

Haven't had enough yet? Let the pummeling continue.

It's funny that you see yourself as The Big Pummeler, Defender of Patients Everywhere (as long as those patients don't need the same "alternative medicine" that you need, because in those cases "alternative medicine" is wonderful).

It's pathetic that you accuse me of fabrication and then make blatant lies based on assumptions that you can't support with evidence. Fortunately for SDN readers I can support my statements. The link below has a letter dated July 18, 2012 where the Director of the US Department of Education states that false advertising by chiropractic programs is outside the legal authority of ED to regulate. If you think about it, there's no way they could regulate quackery like astrology, homeopathy, TCM and chiropractic since it is based on pseudoscience and is permitted by state law. The only way they could have authority would be if they decided to regulate the colleges as interstate commerce and then they would have to void the chiropractic practice acts for the 50 states because federal law supersedes state law. The government isn't interested in that fight so it won't happen.

http://www.adrive.com/public/dqNaeU/2006-07-18 Barth to AB.pdf

Wow, it looks like Mr. Allen Botnick has put a lot of time and effort into this issue. He must be really committed to the cause, some might say hellbent. If you noticed on his letter, Mr. Botnick actually contacted a "hotline" due to the urgency of this crisis.

It also looks like the guy who responded to Mr. Botnick completely dispatched Mr. Botnick's concerns.

I've already provided evidence showing Judge Moye's conflict of interest. The chiropractic accreditor filed an extensive appeal rebutting his preliminary injunction (also below).

http://www.adrive.com/public/zTVvKe/CCE appeal for LUCC case.pdf

Ah, yes. There's that massive conspiracy again. A conflict of interest as obvious as you claim would be overturned on appeal in a nanosecond, that is if the case were even able to proceed in the first place.

I've already posted a link from the Georgia medical board proving that they don't allow chiropractors to order the diagnostic testing necessary to meet the CCE accreditor's requirement prohibiting premature diagnosis. This means that any GA chiropractor ordering labwork would be prosecuted for practicing medicine without a license. The is prima fascie evidence that CCE is still not enforcing its guidelines. This rebuts your claim that the accreditation process corrected Life University's problems in the present.

It seems like you and Mr. Botnick are very tied up with complaints about this one particular chiropractic school. Not that your concerns are valid, but they do seem to center around this one school. From there I guess we, what, extrapolate to the whole profession?

At this point, we are so far afield that it's become nonsensical.

Facetguy/BackTalk I want you banned. You do nothing but misinform and harass people here.

Readers please flag Facetguy's last post and ask the moderator to ban him.

I'm sure you do want me banned because it's so much more fun to post things and have them go unchallenged. There is nothing in any of my posts that even approaches ban-worthiness. And, if you haven't noticed, you're the only person on SDN that I address this way. Why? Because for years you've spewed all kinds of nastiness toward me, calling me any number of unpleasantries and accusing me of all manner of wrongdoing. What makes you think I'm going to lay down and take that from the likes of you?

Bring back a little decency and civility to your comments and I may just respond in kind.

 

[facetguy]

A chiropractor told a someone with FAP not to have a colectomy a GI doc recommended after finding several adenomatous polyps on colonoscopy. He also said that it could be cured through chiropractic care. That's just irresponsible and thankfully the person did not listen, otherwise they would have colon cancer. What scares me is that there may be some people who would actually believe this.

Some DCs may not be like this but ones like this guy will say anything to get someone signed up for a expensive treatment plan.

....and would be quickly sued and face at least license suspension and probably revocation.

I'm suspicious as to the truth of this anecdote.

 

[facetguy]

I'm noticing a trend here where facetguy rejects an argument by cdmguy, cdmguy responds with sources and citations, and facetguy ignores it and moves on.

Points are awarded to cdmguy, facetguy is deferred from the lightning round.

Are you reading through these sources and citations? They have the right buzzwords scattered about but add up to nothing. Most of these are links to a certain website that cdmguy has an interest in, or letters that he's written, or other such drivel. Or they point out issues within the chiro profession that I have spoken against myself. I'm not sure why I do it, but I try to address each of these goofy links to point out that they are exactly that.

 

[cdmguy]

Insanity: doing the same thing over and over again and expecting different results.
Read more at http://www.brainyquote.com/quotes/quotes/a/alberteins133991.html#xXoj72T40YPyDK1E.99

 

[cdmguy]

Most interesting thing I've heard from a student chiro is that they can "heal" autism via manipulation.

Again, this is no outlier.
Quack attack! Subluxation philosophy plus naturopathy are the culprits.
Chiro cure for all autistic kids=no gluten, no milk, metal detox, subluxation crackery.

[YOUTUBE]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=R1VBCRH90Oo[/YOUTUBE]

"State of the art" in chiro literature on autism. Peer reviewed by a bowl of goldfish, they all agree-it works:

http://www.chiro.org/research/ABSTRACTS/Autism.shtml

 

[gettheleadout]

Are you reading through these sources and citations? They have the right buzzwords scattered about but add up to nothing. Most of these are links to a certain website that cdmguy has an interest in, or letters that he's written, or other such drivel. Or they point out issues within the chiro profession that I have spoken against myself. I'm not sure why I do it, but I try to address each of these goofy links to point out that they are exactly that.

Out of the several posts of citations I've seen from cdmguy you have addressed zero.


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[facetguy]

Out of the several posts of citations I've seen from cdmguy you have addressed zero.


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Let's see. Recent pearls of wisdom from cdm have included:

*The finishing move from a 1990s video game. True, I think I failed to comment on that.

*"Miranda" and her Hammer pants. I commented extensively.

*The Jonestown comparison to chiropractic. I commented.

*The other young man's presentation. Commented.

*Some Wikipedia definitions. Who cares.

*The giant fraud scheme that the chiropractic profession is perpetrating. Commented.

*That I have an alias from 2003. Commented.

*A letter from a certain...eh-hem...Mr. Allen Botnick to the US Dept of Ed, along with smackdown reply from Dept of Ed. Commented.

*The conspiracy theory regarding the judge in Life College's accreditation matter. Commented.

*A hackneyed quote from Einstein. No comment required.

*A news story about autism. I'm more a musculoskeletal guy myself, but there are lots of anecdotal reports (and perhaps even some data, I'm not sure) of autistic kids benefitting from dietary changes. Is it a cure? Of course not. But if a kid seems to improve, even if a little, what's the harm, provided the advice doesn't preclude other forms of treatment? And don't look now, but you've got MD colleagues who are making the same recommendations. You can also ask cdmguy what he's doing for autistic kids.


So, what have I missed again? And what do all these nonsense cdmguy links/citations add up to (aside from wasting my time)? They add up to what they've always added up to: ZERO.

 

[cdmguy]

"You may end up with a different math, but you're entitled to your math. I'm entitled to the math." --insisting to NPR that 2006 pre-election polls "add up to a Republican Senate and a Republican House"
-K. Rove.

..

 

[JGimpel]

Let's see. Recent pearls of wisdom from cdm have included:

*The finishing move from a 1990s video game. True, I think I failed to comment on that.

*"Miranda" and her Hammer pants. I commented extensively.

*The Jonestown comparison to chiropractic. I commented.

*The other young man's presentation. Commented.

*Some Wikipedia definitions. Who cares.

*The giant fraud scheme that the chiropractic profession is perpetrating. Commented.

*That I have an alias from 2003. Commented.

*A letter from a certain...eh-hem...Mr. Allen Botnick to the US Dept of Ed, along with smackdown reply from Dept of Ed. Commented.

*The conspiracy theory regarding the judge in Life College's accreditation matter. Commented.

*A hackneyed quote from Einstein. No comment required.

*A news story about autism. I'm more a musculoskeletal guy myself, but there are lots of anecdotal reports (and perhaps even some data, I'm not sure) of autistic kids benefitting from dietary changes. Is it a cure? Of course not. But if a kid seems to improve, even if a little, what's the harm, provided the advice doesn't preclude other forms of treatment? And don't look now, but you've got MD colleagues who are making the same recommendations. You can also ask cdmguy what he's doing for autistic kids.


So, what have I missed again? And what do all these nonsense cdmguy links/citations add up to (aside from wasting my time)? They add up to what they've always added up to: ZERO.

Looks like I missed out on some lengthy debates, but I think that's all they've turned into. I'm not sure what you're still doing with this thread, but if it was to discuss this with people educated in this field, I highly doubt they want to review anything with you anymore.

I've rethought your level of education you've demonstrated to date and now put you around the level of a Junior High student with a relative's university library card working on a biology class project and choosing to stir the pot at the same time. This is not World of Warcraft; you do not get any special awards or points for creating over 3,000 posts in the 4 years since you've found this site or on the last couple of days firmly parked here. SDN, on the other hand, get's paid by how many people view and click-through the ads on this page so they may owe you a check at some point with over 15,000 curious people stopping by.

Have a pleasant day, don't be late for homeroom because you had to get that extra paragraph in!

Resident>Sub-I Audition>3rd Year Med student>MS2>MS1=Pre-Med>>>>Troll
............................................................................................You are here ||

 

[Perrotfish]

*A news story about autism. I'm more a musculoskeletal guy myself, but there are lots of anecdotal reports (and perhaps even some data, I'm not sure) of autistic kids benefitting from dietary changes. Is it a cure? Of course not. But if a kid seems to improve, even if a little, what's the harm, provided the advice doesn't preclude other forms of treatment?
.

The harm in ineffective care is that ineffective care costs patients time and money. When a chiropractor provides sham treatment, even if it doesn't cause any averse health outcome, and even if he's in the subset of chiropractors who don't advise their patients to stop/alter their evidence based medical care, they're still harming the patient by charging for services that could not possibly benifit them. Its the same reason its considered wrong for physicians to charge for perscribing sugar pills.

Autism is a great example of a disorder where a lot of parents struggle to budget for their children. In many staets only the lowest functioning children get anything more than the most basic services through Medicaid and the school system, and then parents need to triage to determine what other services they can afford to buy. Do you buy the extra speech therapy hours? The extra sitter hours so you can get out of the house once in a while? If he's losing weight do you invest in pizza every night, because that's all he'll eat? What about long term planing. Have you saved enough to take care of him when you're elderly/deceased? When a chiropractor charges $150 in cash (or whatever) for a weekly one hour session which doesn't benifit the patient, that absolutely causes harm.

 

[facetguy]

The harm in ineffective care is that ineffective care costs patients time and money. When a chiropractor provides sham treatment, even if it doesn't cause any averse health outcome, and even if he's in the subset of chiropractors who don't advise their patients to stop/alter their evidence based medical care, they're still harming the patient by charging for services that could not possibly benifit them. Its the same reason its considered wrong for physicians to charge for perscribing sugar pills.

Autism is a great example of a disorder where a lot of parents struggle to budget for their children. In many staets only the lowest functioning children get anything more than the most basic services through Medicaid and the school system, and then parents need to triage to determine what other services they can afford to buy. Do you buy the extra speech therapy hours? The extra sitter hours so you can get out of the house once in a while? If he's losing weight do you invest in pizza every night, because that's all he'll eat? What about long term planing. Have you saved enough to take care of him when you're elderly/deceased? When a chiropractor charges $150 in cash (or whatever) for a weekly one hour session which doesn't benifit the patient, that absolutely causes harm.

These are all legit concerns. I, like most of us unfortunately, know closely several families impacted by autism. I think the key issue is whether there is indeed benefit from any treatment, regardless of who renders it or whether it's covered by insurance. The sad truth is that there isn't much in terms of highly effective treatment for autistic kids, at least not in an across-the-board fashion. If a family has decided to make some type of dietary change, for example, and the child makes some progress, who gets to assign the value of that effect? I agree that if anyone in healthcare, chiro or not, were to knowingly rip off these people for financial gain, then yes, string them up. What I object to is the automatic assumption that the non-MD (or the MD using "alternative treatments") is a scumbag. How about the MD who sees this kid over and over, does nothing for him, yet continues to take the insurance money month after month, year after year? Is that MD a scumbag?

 

[Perrotfish]

These are all legit concerns. I, like most of us unfortunately, know closely several families impacted by autism. I think the key issue is whether there is indeed benefit from any treatment, regardless of who renders it or whether it's covered by insurance. The sad truth is that there isn't much in terms of highly effective treatment for autistic kids, at least not in an across-the-board fashion. If a family has decided to make some type of dietary change, for example, and the child makes some progress, who gets to assign the value of that effect? I agree that if anyone in healthcare, chiro or not, were to knowingly rip off these people for financial gain, then yes, string them up. What I object to is the automatic assumption that the non-MD (or the MD using "alternative treatments") is a scumbag. How about the MD who sees this kid over and over, does nothing for him, yet continues to take the insurance money month after month, year after year? Is that MD a scumbag?

This is why you need to have evidence based trials before you initiate any kind of treatment, and based on those trials you need to inform the parents of the odds that their treatment will be effective. You're not necessarily wrong to take money for a treatment that ends up not working for a particular child, so long as you can prove that the treatment is effect for a statistically significant percentage of children and that parents know the odds that they will see an improvement. Speech therapy is a good example of a therapy with variable outcomes.

Generally when people say that an MD is 'doing nothing' for a child, year after year, they mean that the MD is doing evidence based therapies and the child isn't resonding. No, that physician is not a scumbag, he's doing his job, the child is just in the unlucky subset that doesn't respond to the therapy. However when an MD charges for performing a treatment that is either not proven to be effective (dietary changes) or is proven to be ineffective (frequent 'check ups' without therapy) then yes that doc is in the wrong. Its important to distinguish between therapies that haven't been proven to work, and therapies that have been proven to work but which didn't work for a particular child.

If and when there is a significant body of evidence that chirpractic care resolves autism in at least some percentage of children then chiropractic care for autism will be ethical. Until then it won't be. If you want to treat patients using a therapy with unknown outcomes it should be submitted through an IRB, the patient needs to be informed that they're in a trial, and most of all the treatment needs to be of no additional cost vs. their baseline treatment.

 

[cdmguy]

As someone who worked in clinical data management and was trained as a clinical research coordinator I question this standard. Not all medical treatments are evidence based and nor should they have to be because diseases evolve. If a physician knows the natural history of an illness and has valid clinical indicators and a solid mechanism of action for a treatment which is otherwise uncureable then provided they give informed consent I don't see any harm in trying off label approaches and writing up the results as a case study that may spur more research. Believe it or not several important medical advances (ie catheterization) were rejected for trials which led to investigator self experimentation and eventual proof.

Perhaps as part of informed consent these trials should get IRB review but I don't support neutering MDs by banning all off label non-research use.

 

[SpecterGT260]

As someone who worked in clinical data management and was trained as a clinical research coordinator I question this standard. Not all medical treatments are evidence based and nor should they have to be because diseases evolve. If a physician knows the natural history of an illness and has valid clinical indicators and a solid mechanism of action for a treatment which is otherwise uncureable then provided they give informed consent I don't see any harm in trying off label approaches and writing up the results as a case study that may spur more research. Believe it or not several important medical advances (ie catheterization) were rejected for trials which led to investigator self experimentation and eventual proof.

Perhaps as part of informed consent these trials should get IRB review but I don't support neutering MDs by banning all off label non-research use.

Not all are, but they all move towards it. And tests happen pretty quickly as soon as efficacy is questioned

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[facetguy]

This is why you need to have evidence based trials before you initiate any kind of treatment, and based on those trials you need to inform the parents of the odds that their treatment will be effective. You're not necessarily wrong to take money for a treatment that ends up not working for a particular child, so long as you can prove that the treatment is effect for a statistically significant percentage of children and that parents know the odds that they will see an improvement. Speech therapy is a good example of a therapy with variable outcomes.

Generally when people say that an MD is 'doing nothing' for a child, year after year, they mean that the MD is doing evidence based therapies and the child isn't resonding. No, that physician is not a scumbag, he's doing his job, the child is just in the unlucky subset that doesn't respond to the therapy. However when an MD charges for performing a treatment that is either not proven to be effective (dietary changes) or is proven to be ineffective (frequent 'check ups' without therapy) then yes that doc is in the wrong. Its important to distinguish between therapies that haven't been proven to work, and therapies that have been proven to work but which didn't work for a particular child.

If and when there is a significant body of evidence that chirpractic care resolves autism in at least some percentage of children then chiropractic care for autism will be ethical. Until then it won't be. If you want to treat patients using a therapy with unknown outcomes it should be submitted through an IRB, the patient needs to be informed that they're in a trial, and most of all the treatment needs to be of no additional cost vs. their baseline treatment.

Again, you won't get an argument from me as it relates to most of what you say. However, I think it's completely appropriate for a patient/family who may find themselves failing traditional care (and autism happens to be one of those unfortunate instances) to willingly enter into a trial of a safe "alternative" form of treatment (again, let's use some form of dietary change to stay consistent), provided 1) the provider is up front with the patient/family that there are no guarantees and that evidence is scant at this point, 2) there is little risk with this treatment, and 3) this treatment won't interfere/supplant other treatments. One needn't to be in a formal study with an IRB and all the rest to pursue something like this.

It goes without saying that autism is a difficult condition for patients, their families, and for providers as well. It's easy to imagine these desparate people being conned by some dirtbag provider, and we all know that there are cases of this happening. But at some point, you can't blame a patient/family for being willing to try something out of the box that has lots of anecdotal support and some research-based evidence. Is that anecdotal support good enough? No, but as long as everyone is entering this regimen with eyes wide open, I think it's unfair to criiticize them for trying.

I use the dietary change example in part because I think we'll learn more over time about this as an approach to these patients. Again, there's lots of anecdotal stories. But there is also more investigation into the GI tract of these patients, predicting who may fall into a subset that may benefit from, say, the avoidance of gluten. Time will tell. But progress is being made in understanding abnormal gut permeability in general, which will likely help clarify things in the more specific case of autism.

 

[cdmguy]

It goes without saying that autism is a difficult condition for patients, their families, and for providers as well. It's easy to imagine these desparate people being conned by some dirtbag provider, and we all know that there are cases of this happening. But at some point, you can't blame a patient/family for being willing to try something out of the box that has lots of anecdotal support and some research-based evidence. Is that anecdotal support good enough? No, but as long as everyone is entering this regimen with eyes wide open, I think it's unfair to criiticize them for trying.

Here we go again, the chiropractic fanboy is back at bat. Now he's saying that pediatric treatment by chiropractors is safe.

Well it isn't.

Yeah I really want a chiropractor with next to no supervised clinical experience managing kids. Accreditation guidelines don't even require that chiropractors have any pediatric patients in their clinical experience.

http://www.cce-usa.org/uploads/2012-01_CCE_STANDARDS.pdf

So stop this nonsense implying that chiropractic training ensures that they are qualified to provide primary care to babies and kids.

Don't forget that even these weak curricular guidelines aren't even enforced. Life University chiropractic grads (12% of all DCs) can't even confirm a diagnosis due to either lack of training in differential diagnosis, unavailability of testing, and indoctrinated mistrust of non-subluxation diangosis in general.

Extend that to all of the straight chiropractic programs who are vehemently anti-medical (Palmer, Parker, Sherman, Life, Cleveland, etc) and you have half of the profession.

There was an article from 1993 in the Wall St Journal where a chiropractor decided to treat otitis media according to subluxation philosophy and chose to avoid a referral for medicine, the delay in treatment made two kids deaf. (attached)

And don't tell me that chiropractic licensing boards do anything to prevent this. At best they ignore accredited programs and scapegoat the grad when something terrible happens. Here's what happened in 2003 when a faculty member from the Sherman College of Chiropractic decided her patient's anti-seizure medication wasn't a good idea.

http://www.chirobase.org/16Victims/gallagher.html

And if you need any more indication, look at the horrible quality of research from the leading chiropractic pediatrics association (which is straight affiliated).

http://icpa4kids.com/research/published_papers/index.htm

Even more info:

Should Chiropractors Treat Children?

and

http://www.ebm-first.com/chiropractic/safe-for-children.html

That one lists a Canadian child that was stroked out in 2001 by a DC.

Letting a child's care be managed by a chiropractor is a form of child abuse.

 

[Perrotfish]

Again, you won't get an argument from me as it relates to most of what you say. However, I think it's completely appropriate for a patient/family who may find themselves failing traditional care (and autism happens to be one of those unfortunate instances) to willingly enter into a trial of a safe "alternative" form of treatment (again, let's use some form of dietary change to stay consistent), provided 1) the provider is up front with the patient/family that there are no guarantees and that evidence is scant at this point, 2) there is little risk with this treatment, and 3) this treatment won't interfere/supplant other treatments. One needn't to be in a formal study with an IRB and all the rest to pursue something like this.

This is a difference in our view of medical ethics. I firmly believe that when a patient has failed evidence based medicine, then there comes a point when you say 'I'm sorry, there's nothing else we can do'. Or if you do try somethig else, it MUST be for free. Maybe the IRB isn't necessary in all cases, but the therapy being free of cost is 100% required.

We've learned from long experience that when people have an intractable condition, whether it's autism, chronic pain, or terminal cancer, they will throw away their life savings seeking 'cures' where no cure exists. And that can impede their ability to actually provide care for the patient (and the rest of their family) down the line. That's the reason why the medical community has taken such a hardline stance that charging for therapies that don't have evidence behind them is not ethical.

 

[facetguy]

This is a difference in our view of medical ethics. I firmly believe that when a patient has failed evidence based medicine, then there comes a point when you say 'I'm sorry, there's nothing else we can do'. Or if you do try somethig else, it MUST be for free. Maybe the IRB isn't necessary in all cases, but the therapy being free of cost is 100% required.

We've learned from long experience that when people have an intractable condition, whether it's autism, chronic pain, or terminal cancer, they will throw away their life savings seeking 'cures' where no cure exists. And that can impede their ability to actually provide care for the patient (and the rest of their family) down the line. That's the reason why the medical community has taken such a hardline stance that charging for therapies that don't have evidence behind them is not ethical.

In a perfect world, I'd say you are largely correct. But I think you need to be more realistic about the evidence that is behind much of today's healthcare. This is from today's BMJ page:
http://blogs.bmj.com/bmj/2012/12/17/richard-smith-the-case-for-slow-medicine/

"Only 11% of 3000 health interventions have good evidence to support them, said Domenighetti. A third of the activity in the US health system produces no benefit, said a recent study in the New England Journal of Medicine. Half of all angioplasties are unnecessary...." and on and on.

There's been a lot written about this. So should we abandon any concepts of using evidence? No. But let's not over-estimate the strength our current evidence base.

And what about off-label prescribing? Drugs used in this way aren't approved for that particular purpose. I don't recall those drugs, or office visits associated with those prescriptions, being free. Yet this happens how many thousands of times a day, every day.

And you use the term "cure". Do you think, for example, that that chiropractor in the earlier video is promising a cure? Anyone who would promise a cure for autism, terminal cancer, etc is a charlatan and should face prosecution. But let's not conflate such a scumbag with more responsible practitioners (be they MD, DC or whatever).

 

[cdmguy]

Sure the DC is promising a cure, a treatment (chiropractic adjustment) to stabilize the nonexistent condition, vertebral subluxation complex, with heavy insinuation that this will be a panacea for nearly any disease the patient has whether it be autism or whatever else (colic, bedwetting, measles).

 

[facetguy]

Sure the DC is promising a cure, a treatment to stabilize the nonexistent condition, vertebral subluxation complex, with heavy insinuation that this will be a panacea for nearly any disease the patient has.

Hey, the adults are talking now. Go back to the kids' table.

 

[cdmguy]

Hey, the adults are talking now. Go back to the kids' table.

What does it take to get banned on this forum? Are the moderators on vacation?
Obviously this guy isn't going to quit, ever. He's like a paid goon for chiropractic.

 

[facetguy]

What does it take to get banned on this forum? Are the moderators on vacation?
Obviously this guy isn't going to quit, ever. He's like a paid goon for chiropractic.

Do you think the mods look at my posts in a vacuum? Go back and take a look at the names, pejoratives, insults and accusations you sling at me...with regularity, I might add. Heck, just go back one post to the one I responded to. Just more delusional thinking if you think you are somehow special.

 

[cdmguy]

Yet another lie. Like most chiropractors, you use insults and fallacies primarily to distract from the weakness of your arguments.

 

[SpecterGT260]

This is a difference in our view of medical ethics. I firmly believe that when a patient has failed evidence based medicine, then there comes a point when you say 'I'm sorry, there's nothing else we can do'. Or if you do try somethig else, it MUST be for free. Maybe the IRB isn't necessary in all cases, but the therapy being free of cost is 100% required.

We've learned from long experience that when people have an intractable condition, whether it's autism, chronic pain, or terminal cancer, they will throw away their life savings seeking 'cures' where no cure exists. And that can impede their ability to actually provide care for the patient (and the rest of their family) down the line. That's the reason why the medical community has taken such a hardline stance that charging for therapies that don't have evidence behind them is not ethical.

This is basically everything I try to say in these threads. you put it much better than I do

 

[gettheleadout]

If all doctors disappeared, everybody would die. If all chiropractors disappeared, nobody would die, nobody would become ill, and at least some number of people would instead go to doctors and get treatment more appropriate for their conditions than chiropractic.


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[DCMBAMD]

If all doctors disappeared, everybody would die. If all chiropractors disappeared, nobody would die, nobody would become ill, and at least some number of people would instead go to doctors and get treatment more appropriate for their conditions than chiropractic.


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This could qualify as the dumbest thing I have read in a while. I can only pray we have a merciful God who will not allow this person to graduate college and reproduce.

 

[Sephiroth]

This could qualify as the dumbest thing I have read in a while. I can only pray we have a merciful God who will not allow this person to graduate college and reproduce.

sure it was hyperbolic and, as such, not exactly accurate, but c'mon, the dumbest thing you've ever heard? not let this person reproduce? if that's really the dubmest thing you've ever read, then I welcome you on your first contact with other people.

 

[gettheleadout]

This could qualify as the dumbest thing I have read in a while. I can only pray we have a merciful God who will not allow this person to graduate college and reproduce.

Uh, okay. You mad?

Chiropractic is a largely useless profession, and I would argue it does more harm than good as a whole. Medicine on the other hand is essential. What's your point?

We definitely need medicine, we definitely don't need chiropractic. I hope the "DC" in your username isn't referring to your degree...

 

[facetguy]

A chiropractor told a someone with FAP not to have a colectomy a GI doc recommended after finding several adenomatous polyps on colonoscopy. He also said that it could be cured through chiropractic care. That's just irresponsible and thankfully the person did not listen, otherwise they would have colon cancer. What scares me is that there may be some people who would actually believe this.

Some DCs may not be like this but ones like this guy will say anything to get someone signed up for a expensive treatment plan.

I'm not saying I don't believe your story. But who the heck tells a patient something like this??? And why does that chiro still have a license? What, are all the malpractice attorneys getting lazy?

And it's not "some DCs" who aren't like this; NO DCs are like this, or none that I could ever imagine actually saying something like this. Again, not saying it didn't happen but it's pretty unreal. And the expensive treatment plan you mentioned...I guess that 's lucrative until your patient dies!

 

[DCMBAMD]

Facet, first.. stop arguing.. People on here are semi-bullies (from what I have read above), and they only know what they have been taught. Medicine is not a field of self thought, yet one of what you are taught is the gospel and how dare anyone speak against it.

Most of these people are either still studying biochem and pharm, following doctors around with their little short white coats they are so proud of, or just trying to make it through residency. Remember the audience here is mostly comprised of 20-somethings who still play video games and think all the songs on the radio are original. Most of them are still living off mom and dad, and have never had 100% of responsibility of a patient.

For my medical colleagues, you really make yourselves look ignorant and argumentative. Think of all the bad medicine that has existed and was mainstream at one time (blood letting, frontal lobe lobotomy, etc). Even today there are physicians who inject hydrogen peroxide into cancer patients, or purposely misdiagnose cancer and provide sham treatments. Doctors order tests not based on need, but on reimbursement. Interventional cardiologist recommend stents to healthy patients, or to patients who should get by-pass (which has a 10-year longer survival rate). How many medications are prescribed off-label, or treatments prescribed have no evidenced based reasoning? How come medical malpractice is one of the leading causes of death in the US?

So, before you completely trash chiro, take the log out of your own eye. Some.. if not many.. chiropractors preach stupid things, you are right on that. Their claims are not completely unfounded, but do lack serious evidenced based research. I will also admit, that I think that medicine should take over chiropractic (like it has done the "sham" treatment of acupuncture..right?). If medicine started teaching elective courses in spinal manipulation (and DO's did more of it), it would put the entire profession of chiropractic out of its misery. Insurance would cover it, and the world would be whole. But.. many in medicine do not want to admit that there is at least some validity in the treatment and instead of doing that, they help perpetuate chiropractic's fallacies.

 

[DCMBAMD]

Uh, okay. You mad?

Chiropractic is a largely useless profession, and I would argue it does more harm than good as a whole. Medicine on the other hand is essential. What's your point?

We definitely need medicine, we definitely don't need chiropractic. I hope the "DC" in your username isn't referring to your degree...

Mad? At you?... don't flatter yourself. I have children older..and smarter than you. And since you apparently haven't read previous posts.. I am a DC.. and I am a MD.. BC Neuro. So, unlike you who hopes to get into med school one day and be a doctor (because it looks so cool on tv, right?).. I have been through chiro school.. and med school.. (joint MBA). So, I think I may have a better perspective with age, experience, and education.. so please, learn your place before you think you can step up to the plate with me. I was "pre-med" when you were a gleam in your dad's eye.

 

[mjl1717]

sure it was hyperbolic and, as such, not exactly accurate, but c'mon, the dumbest thing you've ever heard? not let this person reproduce? if that's really the dubmest thing you've ever read, then I welcome you on your first contact with other people.

1) I partially agree:
2) I promised I would not disrespect the chiropracter
3) Since this is the loaded thread with the comic relief one of my responses is..


I know there a lot of knuckleheads around, (some are coming from other countries) Im willing and often parry with them..

It is the profound knuckleheads that I try to avoid!

 

[gettheleadout]

For my medical colleagues, you really make yourselves look ignorant and argumentative. Think of all the bad medicine that has existed and was mainstream at one time (blood letting, frontal lobe lobotomy, etc). Even today there are physicians who inject hydrogen peroxide into cancer patients, or purposely misdiagnose cancer and provide sham treatments. Doctors order tests not based on need, but on reimbursement. Interventional cardiologist recommend stents to healthy patients, or to patients who should get by-pass (which has a 10-year longer survival rate). How many medications are prescribed off-label, or treatments prescribed have no evidenced based reasoning? How come medical malpractice is one of the leading causes of death in the US?

http://yourlogicalfallacyis.com/tu-quoque

 

[gettheleadout]

Mad? At you?... don't flatter yourself. I have children older..and smarter than you. And since you apparently haven't read previous posts.. I am a DC.. and I am a MD.. BC Neuro. So, unlike you who hopes to get into med school one day and be a doctor (because it looks so cool on tv, right?).. I have been through chiro school.. and med school.. (joint MBA). So, I think I may have a better perspective with age, experience, and education.. so please, learn your place before you think you can step up to the plate with me. I was "pre-med" when you were a gleam in your dad's eye.

Quite immature assumptions.

 

[GoSpursGo]

While we encourage active discussion about controversial topics, there really is no need for name-calling or personal attacks. Please focus on answering the original purpose of the thread and addressing the views held by other users without resorting to personal attacks to make your point. This goes for everyone involved in this thread.

 

[DCMBAMD]

http://yourlogicalfallacyis.com/tu-quoque

I wasn't avoiding or answering criticism, I was simply pointing out faults in my second profession, while also pointing out faults in my first (throughout my comments).

I can confront any criticism you have..and do it logically and back it up with facts. However, when you are correct, I will also give you credit for being so.

 

[IlDestriero]

This could qualify as the dumbest thing I have read in a while. I can only pray we have a merciful God who will not allow this person to graduate college and reproduce.

When the apocalypse comes and society collapses, the physicians will get guards and the chiros will walk point. At least until it's every man for himself.
This thread is classic pre allo.

 

[DCMBAMD]

Quite immature assumptions.

Assumptions, yes..Immature.. not so much. My daughter is 29, 8-10 years older than the typical "pre-med" student. Seeing that she graduated Emory (chemical engineering) Cum Laude, and Duke Med 2nd in her class (now in her PGY-3 at Penn Med for ENT), I'd be willing to place a large bet she is smarter than the average poster on here.. myself included. I would bet she gets her brains from her mom (the plaintiff's attorney)..lol

 

[SpecterGT260]

This could qualify as the dumbest thing I have read in a while. I can only pray we have a merciful God who will not allow this person to graduate college and reproduce.

*takes off gloves*

Smart enough to not go chiro
Smart enough to go medicine
Smart enough to not bullsh** med students by pretending to be a physician while posting things that are obviously misinformed and nobody who actually had gone into medicine could possibly be confused on.



Sent from my DROID RAZR using SDN Mobile

 

[gettheleadout]

Assumptions, yes..Immature.. not so much. My daughter is 29, 8-10 years older than the typical "pre-med" student. Seeing that she graduated Emory (chemical engineering) Cum Laude, and Duke Med 2nd in her class (now in her PGY-3 at Penn Med for ENT), I'd be willing to place a large bet she is smarter than the average poster on here.. myself included. I would bet she gets her brains from her mom (the plaintiff's attorney)..lol

She sounds very successful and I'm sure is extremely smart/hard-working. Nonetheless, can you see how outright saying your children are smarter than me comes off? You have no way of knowing where I sit on the intelligence spectrum, it's a wild guess on your part in either direction. Tempering your statement with a "possibly" or even "probably" would make it seem less arrogant.

Further, assuming my only interest in medicine is based on media portrayal is immature. Doing so only makes you come off (to me) as jaded ("premeds these days want it for the wrong reasons") and a bit elitist ("and that's why they're not good enough to be doctors like me").

 

[cdmguy]

Remember everyone, God wants you to be a chiropractor. So drop out of medical school right now and get your butt to chiropractic school-they're saving a place for you.

I am a Chiropractic Soldier
planetc1.com-news
By T.O. Morgan, D.C.

Dynamic Essentials Atlanta Georgia 2013

Dynamic Essentials or DE is a powerful catalyst to personal change and growth. Dynamic Essentials recognizes that Chiropractors go through a long, strenuous and sometimes deficient educational process. This educational process often disregards Chiropractic's founding principles and scoffs at the idea that there is more to life than what science can easily prove. With respect for Chiropractic's founding principles and the principle that the "Power that made the body, heals the body," Dynamic Essentials focuses on our responsibility as Chiropractors to lay hands on the sick and oppressed and see them recover.

…

Sid Williams, D.C., another leading promoter, has been president of the International Chiropractors Association. He founded and served until 2002 as president of Life Chiropractic College in Marietta, Georgia, where his salary and benefits rose to over $900,000 a year [3]. His other enterprises have included Today's Chiropractic (a journal), Health for Life (a testimonial newspaper), the Life Foundation (for public education), the Dynamic Essentials (DE) Seminars (at which Williams expounds on chiropractic's "Dynamic Essentials"), and Dynamic Essentials (a chiropractic supply house originally called Si-Nel). Williams appears to believe that virtually all health problems are caused by nerve interference and should be treated by chiropractic methods. In 1979, he appeared on CBS's "60 Minutes," adjusting the neck of an infant girl. When asked why, her mother said the adjustments (begun on the child's third day of life) were "preventative measures -- to keep her healthy."

The DE meetings are intended to inspire chiropractors to greater income as well as greater self-confidence. During the late 1970s, the fee was $325 for a three-day program during which "the DE Team speakers will show you how to increase your practice with the secrets that have enabled them to build their practices into the $300,000-$500,000 range." Other ads for the seminars boasted that their top instructors saw 200 to 400 patients per day.

…The initial phase of patient contact is said to have three parts: the consultation, the examination (including an x-ray of every patient), and the report of findings. Page 129 states:

Every step of your procedure should be thorough enough to convince the patient that you are not overlooking anything. The sophisticated age in which we live prevents the simplicity of chiropractic from being understood by the average person. . . .

The examination procedures are not diagnostic, they are to emphasize to the patient that a weakness exists in his body and that they have been caused by spinal fixations. By fortifying the patient's knowledge of the 'spinal cause' by the use of test instruments and graphs, the patient is able to see beyond any doubt that he is actually physically sick; that a spinal condition caused it, and that something needs to be done chiropractically to correct it.

Much of this volume is composed of statements for selling patients on chiropractic care. On pages 98-100, for example, Williams recommends that the doctor feel the spine for tender spots, "predict the conditions that might occur underneath," and ask whether various symptoms have yet occurred. If the patient answers no to any of them, say: "Well, Mrs. Jones, it certainly is a wonder. I must say you have a strong constitution in order to stand up under the many problems that you have. You have trouble in many areas, but you don't have many symptoms as of yet. But I would make the prediction that if you hadn't turned to chiropractic, you'd be a very sick girl shortly." Page 148 suggests telling patients: "Medicine is very effective in its place; however, it is a simple fact that it is becoming obsolete. The theory of medicine is false."

Williams's suggested goal was to convince patients to continue "preventive maintenance" once a month for life. (Page 75 notes that "once the patient has experienced relief through chiropractic adjustments, he will accept almost any reasonable recommendation.") If the patient asks, "But will I have to continue with chiropractic care as long as I live?" the recommended reply (page 175) is:

(Chuckling) No ma'am, you won't have to continue it as long as you live. Only as long as you want to stay healthy. Every spine needs some maintenance, Mrs. Jones. My family and I are checked regularly on a monthly basis, and more often when we think that it is necessary. Yes, if you want to stay healthy, you will have to continue some chiropractic care.
http://www.chirobase.org/01General/sellspine.html

(Wait 1 min to load)​

Chant with me my children...

MD More Disease, DC Doctor of Cure.
MD More Disease, DC Doctor of Cure.
MD More Disease, DC Doctor of Cure.

All is well.​

Special offer. Sign up today and get the DE/Life University Money Hum as a bonus. Guaranteed to bring wealth or you will be ostracized and kicked out of the cult.

Brought to you by the US Department of Education ("We're accredited!") and the Council on Chiropractic Education (after we threatened to sue them for 100 million dollars in 2001 and forced them to give us back accreditation as part of the settlement despite serious ongoing violations due to us promoting a false diagnosis scam!)

 

[facetguy]

Remember everyone, God wants you to be a chiropractor. So drop out of medical school right now and get your butt to chiropractic school-they're saving a place for you.

Spock, I find it funny how you fancy yourself some hard-hitting investigative journalist. Who knows, maybe that can be a new career path for you. Sounds like you need one.

You continue to post about Life College (and to a lesser degree Sherman College) as if it represents all of chiropractic. It's well understood that Life (and Sherman) is THE school with the lowest academic expectations. Everyone knows that, at least in the chiro community. It's not a secret. You aren't breaking some big story.

Everyone here understands that when it comes to education there are a few great schools, a lot of good schools, and some really crappy schools. The crappy schools provide the very minimum.

What if we were to choose the Caribbean medical school with the lowest standards...you know the ones, no MCAT, minimal GPA, etc, yet their grads have a shot at practicing medicine in the US just like everyone else...what if we kept going on and on about how the entire medical profession should be judged by those standards? Do you think anyone would believe us? Of course not.

The same can be said for students themselves: some excel and ace everything, some are average, and some do just enough to get by. That's the way it is.

But even when it comes to Life College, there are still minimum standards. Their students still have to pass the multi-part national boards and then state boards. I knew a guy from Life who had taken Part One of the national boards (that's the basic science exam covering anatomy, biochem, micro, pathophys, etc) so many times that the Board told him he had one more shot then he was done. That's a Life grad.

Now, about this "DE" thing you talk about. I've never been to that. Have you? If I understand you correctly, it's not an official requirement for chiropractic students, is it? Your quote says:

"Dynamic Essentials recognizes that Chiropractors go through a long, strenuous and sometimes deficient educational process. This educational process often disregards Chiropractic's founding principles and scoffs at the idea that there is more to life than what science can easily prove."

Sounds to me like these folks are saying 'if you don't like the real chiropractic education, come to DE'. So why are you trying to confuse everyone by suggesting that this DE is chiropractic education? Because you're dishonest, that's why.

But what else is new?

 

[cdmguy]

>What if we were to choose the Caribbean medical school with the lowest standards..
But even when it comes to Life College, there are still minimum standards.

That's the point. The minimum standards are too low so consumers have no guarantee that their primary care provider is competent at any level-pediatrics, diagnosis, or evidence base musculoskeletal care-especially the care you like so much-orthopedic rehabilitation, all these subjects are either optional or have such a low patient encounter level so to make it inconsequential. At best they may get a mixer quack who diagnoses them correctly but puts them on quacky biomechanical subluxation treatment.

>Their students still have to pass the multi-part national boards and then state boards. I knew a guy from Life who had taken Part One of the national boards (that's the basic science exam covering anatomy, biochem, micro, pathophys, etc) so many times that the Board told him he had one more shot then he was done. That's a Life grad.

I don't see the point really when Life didn't set the minimum GPA, the accreditor did. They were just following guidelines.

>Now, about this "DE" thing you talk about. I've never been to that. Have you?
If I understand you correctly, it's not an official requirement for chiropractic students, is it? Your quote says:

"Dynamic Essentials recognizes that Chiropractors go through a long, strenuous and sometimes deficient educational process. This educational process often disregards Chiropractic's founding principles and scoffs at the idea that there is more to life than what science can easily prove."

Sure did, all Life students are encouraged by philosophy instructors to attend at a discount by writing an indoctrination essay about why chiropractic is good and medicine evil. They even excused absences from class by not taking attendance the days it was held. It's an event in a big local hotel with vendors, high energy bling-ed up speakers to motivate students through dreams of later wealth and lots of anecdotal stories. For a student it's a great break from class.

Here's the founder of DE, Sid Williams (left) with his rings and Cadillac.

Sounds to me like these folks are saying 'if you don't like the real chiropractic education, come to DE'. So why are you trying to confuse everyone by suggesting that this DE is chiropractic education? Because you're dishonest, that's why.

Technically the accreditation standards ban premature diagnosis and unethical conduct-the exact things that DE teaches. DE is educational in that it teaches business courses for chiropractors and is fully supported by Life University in a way that essentially makes it an extra curricular activity. CCE chiropractic accreditation guidelines support the individual orientation of the school and may ban these unethical practices but in practice they look the other way and completely ignore extra curricular activities like DE-even when it indoctrinates students to hate the minimal differential diagnosis didactic coursework required. Naturopathic schools, termed Mixer, will teach more diagnosis and PT while Straight schools ban PT and minimize diagnosis. But all are inclusive of false biomechanics and some version of subluxation philosophy. DE is an application of the straight orientation. These schools don't teach enough practice management/business skills for students to do well when they graduate so students have to go somewhere to get it. Life University is the feeder for DE. Since Life graduated 12% of practicing DCs it is very significant. DE is also a cult, which the above post insinuated, they use classic cult conditioning techniques such as: love bombing, thought stopping, large group awareness training, withholding bathroom breaks and criticizing members to induce compliance.

The use of cult indoctrination tactics isn't isolated to Life University and DE. The whole point of the Talk the Tic lectures is to give the best propaganda speech and this is a multi-school event.

Here's a Life University grad on the Dr. Oz show.

There are graduates of mixer schools at DE (i.e. instructor James Sigafoose DC).

You've made the point repeatedly that not all chiropractic schools are the same. I don't feel that this needs to be made in every post. But just because they aren't the same that doesn't mean the accreditation and board examination standards are adequate to ensure a minimum level of safety and effectiveness because they aren't and patients get injured as a result. None of the 1992-2001 Life University DC graduates lost licenses because they were never taught differential diagnosis and instead were taught a premature boilerplate scam. DE type thinking isn't a minority of chiropractors-Life was the largest chiropractic school at its height. All chiropractors are indoctrinated to some extent in school, even if it is using only propaganda, and the majority are practicing quackery in their offices and think it is effective (subluxation care for real or assumed biomechanical problems). Mixer chiropractors like yourself attend schools that support ayurveda, TCM, acupuncture and naturopathic quackery (previously mentioned in thread with link).

In fairness, Straight chiropractic programs are in decline now-perhaps because their isolation and propaganda has been breached by the internet's disclosure of their seedy side. However, Mixer chiropractic wouldn't be a good, evidence based replacement and certainly won't give students and patients adequate protection from DCs who mean to exploit them.

 

[DCMBAMD]

She sounds very successful and I'm sure is extremely smart/hard-working. Nonetheless, can you see how outright saying your children are smarter than me comes off? You have no way of knowing where I sit on the intelligence spectrum, it's a wild guess on your part in either direction. Tempering your statement with a "possibly" or even "probably" would make it seem less arrogant.

Further, assuming my only interest in medicine is based on media portrayal is immature. Doing so only makes you come off (to me) as jaded ("premeds these days want it for the wrong reasons") and a bit elitist ("and that's why they're not good enough to be doctors like me").

Well, I am sure your parents would brag about you to others and want to think of their child as smarter.. it is a parent thing...especially when one has academic achievement to back the assertion.

Since the overwhelming majority of people in "pre-med" are in their late teens to early 20's, I will make the leap to say they haven't had many life experiences and "think" they know what they want in life. Some of the most dissatisfied physicians I know "thought" they knew what being a doctor was going to be like.. but when you are young, you really do not have much knowledge of the working world and realities of careers, and at that age, why would you?

So, yes, most pre-med's (which is every other student you talk to on a college campus, but somehow very few ever make it to med school), don't have a conviction for any career path, but base their decisions on family pressures, financial gain, pop culture, or some other intangible reason..not because they would give their left leg to help "cure the world" of disease. Many people think they use their rational mind for these sort of decisions, but in actuality have already made up their mind from their subconscious (due to these other influences) and try to logically reason with their self and attempt to make that decision seem rational.

Lastly, I think your input is an important as any other, but being "pre-med".. maybe you should wait until you at least get into med school before you throw your two cents into a question which was clearly asking medical professionals about the current view of another healthcare field. Not to be rude, but as a pre-med, you hold very little weight in any legitimate argument concerning matters like this. Maybe you should stick to the MCAT forum, and the "which med school should I apply to" chats. You, et al, like to bash me, ..the only person posted here who has practiced and has direct knowledge on both careers. This is like someone without children telling a parent how to raise their child. Maybe it is your self imposed inferiority of someone with more knowledge that threatens you, who knows, I am not a psychiatrist. If my assumptions are "elitist" to you, maybe this is only a perception from someone who already feels below standard, considering a "pre-med" student is wanting to start an argument with someone with two doctorate degrees, a MBA, (with my MD and MBA being from an elitist level school)...and board certified in neurology.

I wish you good luck in your endeavors, and I would like to let you know.. if you get into medical school.. and get a residency.. there is a pecking order. You need to remember your place in this and understand that people who earn their way through, don't take kindly to people below them who think they are so smart and know everything. But, if you ever make it that far, let me know..I am sure we can revisit these chats and in your new found wisdom will understand.

 

[DCMBAMD]

>What if we were to choose the Caribbean medical school with the lowest standards..
But even when it comes to Life College, there are still minimum standards.

That's the point. The minimum standards are too low so consumers have no guarantee that their primary care provider is competent at any level-pediatrics, diagnosis, or evidence base musculoskeletal care-especially the care you like so much-orthopedic rehabilitation, all these subjects are either optional or have such a low patient encounter level so to make it inconsequential. At best they may get a mixer quack who diagnoses them correctly but puts them on quacky biomechanical subluxation treatment.

Mixer chiropractors like yourself attend schools that support ayurveda, TCM, acupuncture and naturopathic quackery.

Here is a problem with your argument..IF you knew what you were talking about, you would know what Caribbean schools (and all foreign medical schools) still have to take the same USMLE boards, and graduate a ACGME residency to practice. So, any med school a person attends would work. If they can pass their boards and get into a residency, they will be equally qualified to practice medicine with someone who went to any US school. FMG and US med graduates complete residencies side by side everyday. No matter how low the school's entrance standards were.

As far as these quackery sciences, acupuncture is taught at Harvard..and most states have incorporated into the practice of medicine (and needs a medical prescription), with MDs being the leading provider of acupuncture in most states.

Many residency programs across the nation are now including.. ALTERNATIVE MEDICINE curriculum to teach their residents about other health care techniques that have some valid treatment success. So, it is funny that the all might scientific medical machine is moving more alternative everyday.. Just watch Dr. Oz or The Doctors.. everyday they talk about the validity of ALTERNATIVE treatments and even warn against medications and surgery. You seem to be out of the real world loop.

As a disclosure. I don't use much of my chiropractic treatment anymore, and I never subscribed to a lot of the far out alternative treatments talked about here. However, I have heard from patients that many of these treatments have brought them relief and I believe that many non-traditional treatments work. Acupuncture has been around for thousands of years..if there was NOTHING to it, I doubt it would still be around.

 

[cdmguy]

DCMBA,

I think you just agreed with me. I said that national DC standards are not inclusive of evidence based care subjects except some differential diagnosis coverage (often permissive of premature diagnosis) and several false biomechanical subluxation diagnosis/correction methods that are taught concurrently.

Medical standards mandate treatment coverage and don't let schools do their own thing.

My next point was that you can't even say the mixer oriented schools were banning quackery because the accreditation guidelines are so permissive. They sell whatever is popular.

Bringing up quackery in medicine is a "two wrongs don't make a right" fallacy.
http://stevencwatts.newsvine.com/_n...logical-fallacies-101-two-wrongs-make-a-right
Tolerating woo isn't right no matter what the field.

Frankly DCMBA I don't know how you can live with yourself. Think of all the people who are dying from subluxations because you aren't practicing as a chiropractor. How can you be so selfish?