Current PharmD student wanting to pursue PhD

[natedizzle721]

A little about myself: I'm a P2 with IHS (this summer's IPPE), compounding pharmacy and retail experience. I have great leadership experience with NCPA and APhA and am highly involved in student organizations. I also have research experience in immunotoxicology (pathways in asthma biochemistry) and some chem labs (organic synthesis) although I have not been published, plus this summer I'm working with a PharmD to publish a few meta-analyses/lit reviews in psych pharmacy.

I think I would like to pursue a PhD after pharmacy school for a number of reasons (possible better employment in industry, staying partly in academia for research, research in drug discovery interests me the most). My question to you is: would this be worth it if I wanted to go in to research (academia or industry)? What PhD should I pursue (medchem, drug discovery, bioinformatics, etc.)? would my student loans (private through sally mae) be extended and accrue interest? I'm really lost here but have such a strong desire to pursue research. Would love any info at all - thanks much for your time!

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[VictorOfHungerGames]

I think you're asking the wrong question. The question should be, "Which profession should I pursue once I quit pharmacy school this summer?"

Your Ph.D. will not help you land a job. I have a master's in neuroscience, 5 years of clinical research experience from one of the best medical schools in the nation, published 3 papers while there, ton of leadership experience in pharm school, members and officials for numerous organizations, dean's listed several times, Top 10% of my class when I graduated. None of this mattered when I applied for a job. Why? B/c there were about 1000 applicants for the same job with just as good of a resume as mine if not better.

If you want to go into research route, just quit school now and go to grad school to get a ph.d. Even then, I don't know why you would wanna go into research haha My wife is in research and it's a very competitive field. Unless you're tenured, boy you're gonna have a touch time. Maybe industry but that's iffy too...

Good luck... lol

 

[lord999]

A graduate school survival guide: "So long, and thanks for the Ph.D!"

A guide to surviving graduate school, from the perspective of what I wished I had known at the start but had to learn the hard way instead.

ronaldazuma.com

Worked for me when I was considering myself, I recommend this to you. If you are asking such a question though, you are not ready yet as you do not have a good read on what you want to work in (more than just what you are interested in).

 

[Seriously Serious]

If only you had this thought before applying to pharmacy schools because there are a few PharmD/PhD programs out there. You should try and rank your interests by most important (e.g. #1 Professor/academia, #2 Pharmacology/researcher, etc). Technically, you can finish your PharmD and try to land a post-doc position in a university lab or look into fellowships that align with your career interests (drug development).

I'd say look into all the different kinds of fellowships out there, and try and buff your CV in the next couple of years. Obtaining a fellowship and/or residency is enough to enter academia. Becoming a benchtop researcher with a PharmD will be an uphill battle but is definitely not impossible (if interested, I can probably put you in contact with a PharmD PI).

 

[harvoni_rituxan]

I was literally in a similar position as you are right now back in 2016. I seriously seriously thought I would go for PharmD/PhD. But later on I felt it is not worth it. The area of your research and your supervisor matters A LOT, and not all PhDs are made equal. Unless you really wanna be a professor and you don't see yourself doing anything else, a lot of areas are not worth pursuing, from a job outcome perspective. Avoid medchem, drug discovery or general pharmacology. Those areas are highly saturated and have poor job outcomes. Go for quant, like pharmacometrics, heor, or bioinformatics. These research area are usually quite good.

 

[harvoni_rituxan]

I think you're asking the wrong question. The question should be, "Which profession should I pursue once I quit pharmacy school this summer?"

Your Ph.D. will not help you land a job. I have a master's in neuroscience, 5 years of clinical research experience from one of the best medical schools in the nation, published 3 papers while there, ton of leadership experience in pharm school, members and officials for numerous organizations, dean's listed several times, Top 10% of my class when I graduated. None of this mattered when I applied for a job. Why? B/c there were about 1000 applicants for the same job with just as good of a resume as mine if not better.

If you want to go into research route, just quit school now and go to grad school to get a ph.d. Even then, I don't know why you would wanna go into research haha My wife is in research and it's a very competitive field. Unless you're tenured, boy you're gonna have a touch time. Maybe industry but that's iffy too...

Good luck... lol

I think that's because neuroscience is a highly populated research area, and I have heard stories of Ivy league neuroscience PhD grad loathing being stuck in a permadoc hell. Not all research are made equal, and some are more in-demand than others. For example, Pharmacometrics is one of them. I still routinely see linkedin job openings in my region for pharmacokinetics and pharmacometrics scientists getting fewer than 25 applicants for 2-3 months since posted, and maybe that's why I got my industry job fresh out of pharmacy school. It is certainly doable without quitting & switching to a PhD program, but you need to plan well and know what you are getting into before committing to the actual research.

 

[TranslationalRPh]

My wife and I are both PhDs. I'm also a PharmD. I'm in Clinical Development, and she is in Drug Discovery. Thankfully, neither one of us have had trouble finding jobs. She did do a post doc. I stopped school after PhD but did do BCPS a couple of years ago.

For major, I would choose something that strongly interests you. Not all PhDs are equal. Some areas may require a postdoc (or two) in order to be competitive. It's not so much that you couldn't do the job upon gradulation but rather that it is so competitive that you need somehting to distinguish yourself. More experience isn't a bad thing. Also, if you choose the "wrong" major, it may not be an irrevocable mistake, but you will likely lose some time. I spent the first 6 years of my postgrad career in one career and then did a lateral move into my current type of role. My current role is more aligned with my PhD and PharmD training. Obviously, if I had gone a more direct path, I might have saved some time. However, my prior role makes me so much more prepared for my current role. Thus, I'm rising more quickly. It's a marathon not a sprint.

For us both, the PhD has been immensely worth it (financially, professionally, and intellectually). My job does NOT require a PharmD. In fact, I'm the only current person with my job that has a PharmD. Incidentally, my job does not require a PhD (although nearly everyone else with my job has a PhD, MD, or multiple professional degrees RN/PhD, PharmD, PhD like myself, MD/PhD, etc).

For me, federally subsidized student loans did not acrue interest where as private loans did. I paid my student loans off while in graduate schoo. However, I went to pharmacy school when the costs were only a fraction of what they are now. Thus, I would think exceptionally carefully about the costs of getting a PharmD IF you know that you don't plan to practice in a traditional setting. Also, since you do have sunk costs already, you may consider whether you can achieve your career goals without a PhD. My former PI for my PhD dissertation does NOT have a PhD. He has a PharmD. However, he was an NIH fellow and did so at a time where almost no one had a PharmD + fellowship (or even Pharm D) and certainly no a PhD. The point is if your own career leads you to an area where you don't require a PhD (ie, like me) for example, you may elect not to get one. One risk that you can see if you don't get a PhD is the proverbial glass ceilings. That's not insurmountable but is prevalent in some companies. Also, note there are certainy glass ceiings for PhDs in certain roles too in some companies.
Over time, the expectations change. Neither my wife's nor my current boss have PhDs or PharmDs. Her boss has a masters and hit a glass ceiling at larger companies. Thus, he typically stays in small biotechs. Against, your decisions are not irrevocable but should be considered.

Well, I hope that helps you some.

 

[PharmtoCS]

I would just drop out of your PharmD program and start your PhD as soon as you can. The vast majority of PharmDs end up either unemployed or in retail.

The best time to drop out of your PharmD program was before starting. The next best time to drop out is now.

 

[cvd2020]

I cant speak to basic sciences but if you are interested in a PhD in clinical sciences, PM me and I am happy to share my experience. I feel that a PhD in basic sciences often does not synergize well with the clinical emphasis PharmD programs now have so I ended up going the other route.

 

[zNoodlez]

I would just drop out of your PharmD program and start your PhD as soon as you can. The vast majority of PharmDs end up either unemployed or in retail.

The best time to drop out of your PharmD program was before starting. The next best time to drop out is now.

Depends on the field, job market for some PhDs are dried up just as bad as PharmD if not worse.

 

[PharmtoCS]

Depends on the field, job market for some PhDs are dried up just as bad as PharmD if not worse.

I would argue that the market for PharmDs is even more dried up for those who do not want to work in retail and/or move hundreds of miles away from their family and friends to the middle of nowhere for a job.

 

[zNoodlez]

I would argue that the market for PharmDs is even more dried up for those who do not want to work in retail and/or move hundreds of miles away from their family and friends to the middle of nowhere for a job.

Beggars can't be choosers, these PharmDs will need to move to eat. However, at least they can potentially find jobs in the middle of nowhere, sacrificing the city life for a job, Ph.D. jobs are mostly located in big cities or college towns, and even then the availability is quite limited.

 

[TranslationalRPh]

Beggars can't be choosers, these PharmDs will need to move to eat. However, at least they can potentially find jobs in the middle of nowhere, sacrificing the city life for a job, Ph.D. jobs are mostly located in big cities or college towns, and even then the availability is quite limited.

What are you talking about? Yes, I work in a big city. No, job availability is not that limited for all PhDs. I literally get 25 recruiters reaching out to me a month and when I do a job search, I generally am picking among multiple job opportunities. Not all PhDs are the same. You speak way too broadly. Do you have a PhD? What's your basis for these statements about the PhD job market? I am interested.

 

[zNoodlez]

What are you talking about? Yes, I work in a big city. No, job availability is not that limited for all PhDs. I literally get 25 recruiters reaching out to me a month and when I do a job search, I generally am picking among multiple job opportunities. Not all PhDs are the same. You speak way too broadly. Do you have a PhD? What's your basis for these statements about the PhD job market? I am interested.

As I stated in the comment above the one you quoted, it depends on which field. No doubt having PhD in some fields are more desirable than others. Try to scroll up a bit more before you get all defensive, many of my friends are PhD holders who make decent living with little trouble finding jobs in the West Coast.

 

[TranslationalRPh]

As I stated in the comment above the one you quoted, it depends on which field. No doubt having PhD in some fields are more desirable than others. Try to scroll up a bit more before you get all defensive, many of my friends are PhD holders who make decent living with little trouble finding jobs in the West Coast.

Your quoted statement was inconsistent with not only my experience, my wife's experience (we are in very different fields), but that of many of my friends who are PhD holders across different areas in pharma. While I am not being defensive, I am providing a counter to the broad generalization of limited job availability for PhDs. It really does vary from what I have seen. If you have data beyond anecdotes, I am certainly open to it. I would welcome it honestly. Thank you for your more balanced response.

 

[zNoodlez]

Sorry about your friends challenges. I hate hearing about that and sincerely hope their situation improves soon.
That's inconsistent with not only my experience, my wife's experience (we are in very different fields), but that of many of my friends who are PhD holders across different areas in pharma. It is not just field specific but perhaps also regional too. While I am not being defensive, I am providing a counter to the broad generalization of limited job availability for PhDs. It really does vary from what I have seen. If you have data beyond anecdotes, I am certainly open to it. I would welcome it honestly.

My friends are doing great, I think you missed read my comment lol.

 

[TranslationalRPh]

My friends are doing great, I think you missed read my comment lol.

I am happy for them. Thanks for supporting my hypothesis that the job market for PhD holders is not universally facing challenges.

 

[harvoni_rituxan]

What are you talking about? Yes, I work in a big city. No, job availability is not that limited for all PhDs. I literally get 25 recruiters reaching out to me a month and when I do a job search, I generally am picking among multiple job opportunities. Not all PhDs are the same. You speak way too broadly. Do you have a PhD? What's your basis for these statements about the PhD job market? I am interested.

I can concur with this. I don't even have a PhD, just a fresh PharmD grad with some experience. Yet a dozen of recruiters have reached out to me asking if I am interested in hearing new opportunities that often require a PhD, MD or PharmD.

Some fields have dried up, ie med chem, yet some fields are doing great, ie, heor, bioinformatics & systems biology.