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Current MS4, is cards a possibility?
- Thread starter Weinberg Angle
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If you:
1) Apply widely to IM and pull out all the stops to get into the best program you can.
2) Do substantially better on Step II.
3) Start getting involved in research ASAP.
4) Endear yourself to the cardiology faculty at your IM program.
4) Work your ass off in residency and secure some excellent LORs.
...then you might have a shot. You're a little behind the eight ball, to be honest, but it's not a complete impossibility.
1) Apply widely to IM and pull out all the stops to get into the best program you can.
2) Do substantially better on Step II.
3) Start getting involved in research ASAP.
4) Endear yourself to the cardiology faculty at your IM program.
4) Work your ass off in residency and secure some excellent LORs.
...then you might have a shot. You're a little behind the eight ball, to be honest, but it's not a complete impossibility.
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I completely agree with sacrament. You might be at a slight advantage thus far, but nothing you can't overcome with hard work. I would like to add:
1. You can't change what med school you go to. Focus on getting into a strong IM program with a reputable cards division. You will likely benefit significantly at getting to know the cards faculty and trying to stay at your IM program when you apply for fellowship, since your overall application doesn't stand out.
2. You have 1 year left, try to get as many honors as possible to improve the overall class rank by the time you graduate.
3. Your step 1 is not great, but not bad. From my experience, board scores seem to matter less for fellowship than it did for residency. In fact, some cards programs did not even want to see board scores.
4. Research is huge in cardiology, and you should definitely find a mentor and start doing research asap. With that said, it is important you pursue research in something you enjoy. If you do it as a CV filler and hate it, it will show when people ask you to talk about your research.
5. Get to know some cards faculty in med school and early in IM residency. Try to get strong LOR's. They matter a lot in the application process for both IM and fellowship.
1. You can't change what med school you go to. Focus on getting into a strong IM program with a reputable cards division. You will likely benefit significantly at getting to know the cards faculty and trying to stay at your IM program when you apply for fellowship, since your overall application doesn't stand out.
2. You have 1 year left, try to get as many honors as possible to improve the overall class rank by the time you graduate.
3. Your step 1 is not great, but not bad. From my experience, board scores seem to matter less for fellowship than it did for residency. In fact, some cards programs did not even want to see board scores.
4. Research is huge in cardiology, and you should definitely find a mentor and start doing research asap. With that said, it is important you pursue research in something you enjoy. If you do it as a CV filler and hate it, it will show when people ask you to talk about your research.
5. Get to know some cards faculty in med school and early in IM residency. Try to get strong LOR's. They matter a lot in the application process for both IM and fellowship.
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First of all, as a general internist your geographic flexibility will be tremendous. General internists are in enormous demand, are aggressively recruited and can practice virtually anywhere in the country. So I would strongly advise you to not base an FM vs. IM decision on this criteria. If you have other reasons for preferring FM that's fine, but this should not be one of them.
I think the fundamental issue here is that, generally speaking, a suboptimal performance in med school and on Step I are poor prognostic factors re: how you're going to do in residency and subsequent Steps. Not many people bomb Step I (not that you bombed it--your score is nothing to be ashamed of and shouldn't, by itself, keep you out of any number of solid IM programs) and then rock Step II. It happens, sure. I don't sit on ranking committees and I don't claim to have any insight into how they operate, but I feel that a very strong performance in residency will go a long way toward erasing misgivings about your prior history. But you need to honestly look at yourself and ask if you have a very strong performance in you.
I don't think there is any magic number. >230 is probably a very rough figure, in the ballpark of where it seems many successful applicants land... but, as Dreemer points out, board scores probably don't figure into the top 3 factors that'll influence your application.
Not irrelevant, but they will hurt you less. There is no one thing that'll put you over the top, it's a collection of pluses and minuses.
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1) If cardiology is what you really want to do, it is worth it to take the risk, apply to IM, and see if you can get a fellowship -> its impossible to predict beforehand whether or not you will get a fellowship spot with your current stats as posted. As stated prior, there's plenty of jobs in IM anywhere in the country, and I woul venture that it is overall more versatile then FM.
2) 1st author paper(s) in well respected cards journals will almost guarantee you a fellowship spot, so get started ASAP on research with well known or prodcutive PIs. Another reason to do research in med school is that your advisor can be very helpful in writing letters, making calls for you, etc. Many people have professors from med school whom they know well write at least one or two of their cards fellowship letters.
3) As stated, board scores will matter little when applying to cards fellowship. Class rank may matter slightly more, but there are plenty of fellowship programs that don't ask for med school transcripts...
Don't focus on what's already done, but focus on the things you can change, of which there are plenty, before its time to apply for fellowships.
2) 1st author paper(s) in well respected cards journals will almost guarantee you a fellowship spot, so get started ASAP on research with well known or prodcutive PIs. Another reason to do research in med school is that your advisor can be very helpful in writing letters, making calls for you, etc. Many people have professors from med school whom they know well write at least one or two of their cards fellowship letters.
3) As stated, board scores will matter little when applying to cards fellowship. Class rank may matter slightly more, but there are plenty of fellowship programs that don't ask for med school transcripts...
Don't focus on what's already done, but focus on the things you can change, of which there are plenty, before its time to apply for fellowships.
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No, it's an optional upload. I applied to lots of programs, and off the top of my head I would say roughly half of them required med school transcripts. The program's webpage will usually clearly state if they want transcripts.
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One bad score can be accepted. You need about 250 on the next go round. You can get this with some of the prep programs that are offered. Your school will know of them. Class placement is looked at but not grades. Medical students now days are terrible and so are their grades. Thus, how you place against you fellows is observed.
Your chance of getting a publication in a major journal is slim to none. You can do some review articles for some of the smaller journals and this looks good.
If you bother the cardiology staff they will certainly know what you are up to and likely will not appreciate the attention. I know that at a point this was a negative for us.
One thing you have going for you is you are American. That is a rare. Most of what we saw was foreign. They offer competition that you can not match but the edge is given to Americans in most programs.
So shot gun the applications. You should be sending out one to every program. If your head of the Department of Medicine likes you during residency, then you may have an in. Note that I said the Department head, not the head of cardiology.
Your chance of getting a publication in a major journal is slim to none. You can do some review articles for some of the smaller journals and this looks good.
If you bother the cardiology staff they will certainly know what you are up to and likely will not appreciate the attention. I know that at a point this was a negative for us.
One thing you have going for you is you are American. That is a rare. Most of what we saw was foreign. They offer competition that you can not match but the edge is given to Americans in most programs.
So shot gun the applications. You should be sending out one to every program. If your head of the Department of Medicine likes you during residency, then you may have an in. Note that I said the Department head, not the head of cardiology.
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Massive over-generalization there...unless you're the sort that equates skill in taking MCQ exams with actual clinical ability.
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Friendly,
Having sat on several sessions of deciding who was going to get a fellowship, I can tell you the last thing anyone worries about is "clinical ability". You see, the departments are graded by your ability to pass the boards. If you show that you can do well on a board exam, then you have a foot in. Most foreigners take academics seriously. Most American students don't have a clue.
Having sat on several sessions of deciding who was going to get a fellowship, I can tell you the last thing anyone worries about is "clinical ability". You see, the departments are graded by your ability to pass the boards. If you show that you can do well on a board exam, then you have a foot in. Most foreigners take academics seriously. Most American students don't have a clue.
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So, you were not educated in the U.S. and you have pridefully pulled yourself up by your own bootstraps. Good for you. A modecum of bias exists, and your posts are very insulting toward those whom you now practice with. I think we can now treat some of your opinions with appropriate caution.
OP: you do not need a 250 on Step 2, and you have more than exceeded a minimum pass on Step 1 (by David713's logic, you now "have ability" to pass exams). Just do your best.
OP: you do not need a 250 on Step 2, and you have more than exceeded a minimum pass on Step 1 (by David713's logic, you now "have ability" to pass exams). Just do your best.
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I don't desire to get in a word fight with you. The fact is that I was educated in the US and finished school in 1974. Since that time things have changed significantly. I could be hardly called prejudiced against Americans, maybe I am as I would strongly desire to have the South leave the Union once again and we could have return of our freedom. I live in the South.
I have over 35 years in medicine. I have been in private practice as well as an associate professor at a medical school. Thus when I tell you something it is like God speaking. I have culled medical students, interns, residents and fellows. Thus I can tell you that there are certain things that are not well published. I will stand by my comments. Have someone else with my experience look at the comments and tell me different.
Why am I on a student board? Originally to try and advertize my web site in which I am exposing the bad goings on at LSU Medical Center. But the monitors don't desire advertising even if it helped you. Instead, I got interested in some of your concerns and have tried to help. Excuse me for doing so.
I have over 35 years in medicine. I have been in private practice as well as an associate professor at a medical school. Thus when I tell you something it is like God speaking. I have culled medical students, interns, residents and fellows. Thus I can tell you that there are certain things that are not well published. I will stand by my comments. Have someone else with my experience look at the comments and tell me different.
Why am I on a student board? Originally to try and advertize my web site in which I am exposing the bad goings on at LSU Medical Center. But the monitors don't desire advertising even if it helped you. Instead, I got interested in some of your concerns and have tried to help. Excuse me for doing so.
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Indeed, many of your politically-incorrect comments (like this one) weaken any credibility and provide insight into your psyche. Not everybody is going to listen to you. You must accept this. Anyway, it sounds like you have an axe to grind so thanks for your input and happy grinding.
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I want to state that many programs do, indeed, look at the candidates' grades. Cardiology is competitive. This we all know. Many programs (especially if they're receiving all those shot gun applications) can afford to be extremely selective. In general, there's a very accomplished pool of talent out there and little dings can set a candidate apart.
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The student has the right idea
shoot for 230 on the rest of your USMLE's
don't worry about things you cannot change
get yourself into the best IM program you can get in to
work hard while a resident
try to publish something
It's true that about 1/2 of cards fellowship programs didn't even ask for medical school grades, probably b/c it's hard to compare 1 school to another and also grades are quite subjective in med school. Some fellowship programs also won't look at USMLE scores, while others will. It is true that
bad med school grades + bad USMLE's could hurt a cards fellowship application. I don't think a lowish step 1 with good Step 2 and Step 3 would be super difficult to overcome, though. Cardiology is a "who you know" field, so a couple of letters from cardiology faculty would go a long way in the fellowship application process. I can also tell you from experience that above average (not necessarily stratospheric, just above average) USMLE scores will be noticed by some program directors and may be selection factor.
shoot for 230 on the rest of your USMLE's
don't worry about things you cannot change
get yourself into the best IM program you can get in to
work hard while a resident
try to publish something
It's true that about 1/2 of cards fellowship programs didn't even ask for medical school grades, probably b/c it's hard to compare 1 school to another and also grades are quite subjective in med school. Some fellowship programs also won't look at USMLE scores, while others will. It is true that
bad med school grades + bad USMLE's could hurt a cards fellowship application. I don't think a lowish step 1 with good Step 2 and Step 3 would be super difficult to overcome, though. Cardiology is a "who you know" field, so a couple of letters from cardiology faculty would go a long way in the fellowship application process. I can also tell you from experience that above average (not necessarily stratospheric, just above average) USMLE scores will be noticed by some program directors and may be selection factor.