CSULB vs UCLA/CAL/UCSD

celtics

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Hi everyone!

I have been trying to narrow down colleges and brought it Cal State University Long Beach, UCLA, Cal and UCSD.

-At CSULB, I have a full scholarship and priority registration. The class sizes are smaller as well than at a UC and I would have a realistic shot at a double major here.

-The cost of UCLA, Cal and UCSD are around $15,000 a year with financial aid. The cost could go up though in the future. There will obviously be more competition at this level and a harder time getting into classes. Also more research opportunities and more esteemed professors.

I am looking at a Economics or Bioengineering degree for my undergrad. I plan on going on to medical school afterwards. For medical school purposes, which of the above would be best? The classes would be easier at CSULB, so a higher GPA is possible; also I would be in closer contact with professors at CSULB. UCLA and UCSD offer high ranked medical schools and have pre med tracks. Cal has the highest prestige of the group.

Are UCLA/Cal/UCSD worth the higher cost per year, greater competition and struggling to get into classes? If so, which of the UCs would be best?

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I would choose CSULB. You've already got a full scholarship and the classes would be easier, making it easier to keep up your GPA for admissions. I got into UCLA but it cost so much, and I heard it was difficult. CSULB looks promising!
 
When I was on an adcom we probably accepted 20 times as many applicants from each UC than we did from all schools in the Cal State system. You will be at a major disadvantage in the medical school application game, and your scholarship would have a minimal mitigating effect (and a double major no effect at all).

Those very few successful applicants from the Cal State system tended to have extraordinary accomplishments outside of the classroom, near-perfect GPAs, and high MCATs. Many had overcome significant adversity or were nontraditional applicants.

Among the UCs, I think it comes down to personal preference.
 
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Like you said, one of the biggest downsides of going to a CSU is that it's harder to find research opportunities - where as when I went to UCI, anyone who wanted to do research was able to find a position. That's the nature of the schools though, the CSU's aren't research schools, whereas the UC's are.

From my experience on the dental side of things - I suppose I can assume it's at least similar, I know it's also extremely competitive - the name of your undergrad doesn't particularly matter, it's much more what you do there, and how you do on your DAT/MCAT/PCAT. Now, along those lines, like I said before, you'll have more oppurtunities at a UC. Many people in my class are from small liberal arts schools, which are much less well known than CSULB.

As far as CSULB, my girlfriend is there in Bio right now, and she's got mixed feelings about the program - just a heads up.

As far as the school discrimination in admissions, I think you'd be hard pressed to find a school who'd accept someone from a UC who had a lower GPA and MCAT and about the same EC's (etc) than an applicant from a CSU with higher stats simply because of the name.

Also, are you sure the UC's are that expensive? Maybe that's with housing? When I was at UCI last year it was $2200 a quarter (without Financial Aid) - I had heard it went up like 30%, but I wouldn't have thought it would be 15k a year. I thought the UC's had a standardized tuition.
 
Like you said, one of the biggest downsides of going to a CSU is that it's harder to find research opportunities - where as when I went to UCI, anyone who wanted to do research was able to find a position. That's the nature of the schools though, the CSU's aren't research schools, whereas the UC's are.

From my experience on the dental side of things - I suppose I can assume it's at least similar, I know it's also extremely competitive - the name of your undergrad doesn't particularly matter, it's much more what you do there, and how you do on your DAT/MCAT/PCAT. Now, along those lines, like I said before, you'll have more oppurtunities at a UC. Many people in my class are from small liberal arts schools, which are much less well known than CSULB.

As far as CSULB, my girlfriend is there in Bio right now, and she's got mixed feelings about the program - just a heads up.

As far as the school discrimination in admissions, I think you'd be hard pressed to find a school who'd accept someone from a UC who had a lower GPA and MCAT and about the same EC's (etc) than an applicant from a CSU with higher stats simply because of the name.

Also, are you sure the UC's are that expensive? Maybe that's with housing? When I was at UCI last year it was $2200 a quarter (without Financial Aid) - I had heard it went up like 30%, but I wouldn't have thought it would be 15k a year. I thought the UC's had a standardized tuition.

When you throw in housing, you are looking at around 125K for 4 years. Each UC is slightly different, but not by much. A UC education isn't cheap. It's about 4k per quarter (3 quarters). Curse you California budget! :mad:

UCI projected rates: http://www.ofas.uci.edu/content/costs.aspx?nav=1
 
I'm at a UC for medical school right now, and out of our entire class, only 1 person went to a CSU, while I'd say over 90% of my class went to a UC for undergrad.

It is definitely easier to do well at a CSU, but the competition and the classes at a UC will better prepare you for medical school. I agree with the above poster who said his school accepted much more UC applicants than CSU applicants. I'm on the adcom at my school, and it's very rare that a CSU applicant even gets an interview, let alone gets accepted.

A double major makes absolutely no difference in terms of getting admitted to medical school, so unless you like extra work, then it serves no purpose.

In terms of going to a UC for medical school, attending a CSU puts you at a MAJOR disadvantage for getting accepted into medical school.

And to echo what was said above, the UC you go to doesn't make a difference. Location and personal preference should guide your decision in that regard.
 
I could see considering a lower tier UC(don't mean this condescendingly, they are very good schools) against UCLA/Cal/SD, but a CSU?

They don't have nearly the name recognition, and who knows, you might not be premed forever.
 
I'm at a UC for medical school right now, and out of our entire class, only 1 person went to a CSU, while I'd say over 90% of my class went to a UC for undergrad.

It is definitely easier to do well at a CSU, but the competition and the classes at a UC will better prepare you for medical school. I agree with the above poster who said his school accepted much more UC applicants than CSU applicants. I'm on the adcom at my school, and it's very rare that a CSU applicant even gets an interview, let alone gets accepted.

A double major makes absolutely no difference in terms of getting admitted to medical school, so unless you like extra work, then it serves no purpose.

In terms of going to a UC for medical school, attending a CSU puts you at a MAJOR disadvantage for getting accepted into medical school.


And to echo what was said above, the UC you go to doesn't make a difference. Location and personal preference should guide your decision in that regard.

Other than name... which is a somewhat insignificant factor, and not as many research opportunities, could you explain this?
 
The explanation is that name is not an insignificant factor.

Ok, well, could you explain that? Most dental Adcoms say it's not, because the DAT is the great equalizer, I would assume that the MCAT does a good job of that. I can't seem to get a straight answer on this, and I find it hard to believe that educated people would fall into the simple prejudice of "my school is better than yours."
 
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Ok, well, could you explain that? Most dental Adcoms say it's not because the DAT is the great equalizer, I would assume that the MCAT does a good job of that. I can't seem to get a straight answer on this, and I find it hard to believe that educated people would fall into the simple prejudice of "my school is better than yours."

It's because of the level of competition. It's not the school that is better, it is the quality of the students that you have to compete against. If you are at a UC, almost all of your science classes are based on a curve, and you are competing against top-tier students. Most of the students at a UC were at the top of their high school classes. You can't say the same about most of the students at a CSU. Earning an A at UCLA in a biochemistry class is not the same as earning an A at a CSU biochem class. Compare the average GPA's and SAT scores for incoming freshman of UC's and CSU's. It's not even close.

It's true the MCAT is also considered a great equalizer, but for whatever reason, students from CSU tend not do as well on the MCAT. You can quite reasonably argue that this might be attributed to the fact that UC's have more quality students (for reasons mentioned above) and I would most definitely agree with that, but I think a part of it has to do with the fact that the classes are just easier at a CSU due to the decreased level of competition.

It works exactly the same way for sports. A guy who leads the SEC or the Big 12 in rushing is most likely a better prospect than a guy who goes to a small AA division football school and leads his conference in rushing. Or a guy who hits .400 in single A ball compared to a guy who hits .350 in AAA. Both guys can play, but it's less risk to take the guy who plays against tougher competition. It doesn't mean the kids from smaller schools/leagues can't play, it's just that they are untested. Medical schools, like any other business (and they are a business), want to minimize risk. The best way to do that is to take high performing students from schools that historically produce high performing medical students.
 
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I very respectfully disagree with some of the above posters regarding the opportunities open to you at a UC campus vs. a CSU campus. Although I recognize that those who serve on professional school admission committees probably have a much deeper understanding of the benefits of going to a UC over a CSU, I'd just like to argue that the CSU is not *that* bad of an option.

I attend the California State University; though I do not attend CSU Long Beach, I feel comfortable enough in making some generalizations about the university based on my own experience.

I agree with the general conclusion that the courses at the CSU are not as competitive as those of the UC--the average UC student is of a different caliber than the average CSU student. However, one should refrain from viewing people--in this case, individuals who are aspiring to medical school (or similar)--as a statistic. Sure, many of the CSU students I know do fit the "non-competitiveness" bill; they don't do their homework, occasionally drop in on classes and re-take half their classes. (I am sure at the UC you'd find this kind of student to be much rarer.) But by no means does this profile of CSU students give anyone license to critique any and all graduates of the CSU unilaterally.

There are many absolutely brilliant scholars (I prefer this term to "students") at the CSU. If you go into your freshman year with an understanding of your abilities and your goals, you will do fine. To put this into more concrete terms, you should approach your professors at office hours (trust me, faculty at the CSU are happy to see students--they're mostly kinda lonely in their offices), and if their style / course content / research interests you, do not be hesitant to ask about their research interests. Generally, CSU professors are happy to show you around their lab, introduce you to their group, talk at length about their interests and invite you to listen in on their lab meetings. I challenge anyone to find me a UC professor with whom any freshman can chat for 2 hours without distraction.

I also humbly disagree with the notion that UC classes are superior to CSU courses. Unlike the UC, a large portion of tenure review for faculty at the CSU is based on teaching abilities. CSU professors are hired to both teach and conduct research (nowadays, they're also administrators, secretaries, technicians, and advisors, since these positions were eliminated following the budget cuts). I have been very satisfied overall with the level at which my classes have been taught. This, of course, is assuming that your definition of success is not merely an "A"--that honestly means almost nothing--but performing at the top of the class. To succeed at the CSU, I think, requires a stronger work ethic than that of many UC students; again, opting for the "easy A" won't get you anywhere, but really taking the time to understand the material will. After all, it's not like physical chemistry at a CSU will not cover the kinetic isotope effect or enzyme catalysis; it's just that you will really need to take the time to understand such topics, even if doing so is not necessary for the "A".

My recommendation would be to attend CSULB. (May I ask, are you on a President's Scholarship?) If your life is hell there, you can always transfer after two years.

Also, for practical reasons, you will likely be much better off at CSULB with the priority registration than at a UC at which you will not receive that privilege. I cannot stress how fortunate you are to have such a benefit. Were you not to receive priority at CSULB, I would reconsider my recommendation for you to attend the CSU. Though you may not realize it now, the lack of available class seats (did I mention, major classes at the CSU (e.g. biochemistry) are limited to ~40 students? Try UCLA's 400 on for size.) is a huge obstacle to students' completion of their academic plans at both the UC and CSU. With priority registration, all you will have to worry about is getting your tuition payment in before the deadline for priority, instead of scrambling for classes the first day (some 400 freshmen were disenrolled at my campus their first quarter, as they could not register in any class; they must return as freshmen again the next academic year). Again, priority registration is a *huge* benefit. Take advantage of it.

I hope this helps, and by no means did I intend to offend anyone, nor did I want to toot my own horn.

Good luck wherever you end up.

waddle
 
Well I think we've got some very well thought out points here, and I'm really glad this hasn't devolved into the "CSUs suk!" debate I thought it might have. I think it's a very valid conclusion to say that it's not so much the name of the school, but on average, the caliber of the student who is accepted to a UC will (on average) do better in their classes, and get a higher MCAT score. And for this reason, many more people are accepted from UC's than CSU's - and it's not simply name discrimination.

I also totally agree with what most of Waddle said - from my experiences of UC professors, to be blunt, most (but clearly not all, I had a few amazing professors) of them can't teach their ways out of paper bags, and the student is left doing more of the self teaching themselves. I actually thought my best science professors were at the (puts flame shield on) Community College level - they cared about teaching, and that's the only reason they were there, plus, smaller class size really does a lot ( I had 14 in my Ochem, compared to 400 at the UC).

And concerning the priority registration - not being able to get into classes is my girlfriend's biggest complaint about CSULB, so this is a huge positive.
 
Ok, well, could you explain that? Most dental Adcoms say it's not because the DAT is the great equalizer, I would assume that the MCAT does a good job of that. I can't seem to get a straight answer on this, and I find it hard to believe that educated people would fall into the simple prejudice of "my school is better than yours."

:thumbup:
 
Again, could you explain this?

I'm not sure what you want to know.

Prestige is a factor in the selection process. The difference in perceived prestige between Cal and CSULB is huge. Hence, the Cal student gets a significant advantage.

Can the CSULB student overcome this disadvantage? Of course, but most don't. It's not just a matter of scoring high on the MCAT. You would need to distinguish yourself in ways going above and beyond most pre-meds.
 
I'm not sure what you want to know.

Prestige is a factor in the selection process. The difference in perceived prestige between Cal and CSULB is huge. Hence, the Cal student gets a significant advantage.

Can the CSULB student overcome this disadvantage? Of course, but most don't. It's not just a matter of scoring high on the MCAT. You would need to distinguish yourself in ways going above and beyond most pre-meds.

Could you try to quantify this advantage? I understand if comparing two students with the impossible situation of equal stats, ec's, story, etc, one might go with the student who came from the more competitive university, but, are you saying that Med Adcoms would rather take markedly lower MCAT scoring students over higher scoring students from a Cal State school simply because of the name? How would you compare this to, say, instead of a student from a Cal State, a student from a relatively unknown small liberal arts school on the east coast. The way you're making it sound now is that it's a Boy's Club, and I'm hoping I'm wrong in that conclusion.

It sounds like you're experienced in this area, and I'd really like to get some insight on this.
 
Could you try to quantify this advantage? I understand if comparing two students with the impossible situation of equal stats, ec's, story, etc, one might go with the student who came from the more competitive university, but, are you saying that Med Adcoms would rather take markedly lower MCAT scoring students over higher scoring students from a Cal State school simply because of the name? How would you compare this to, say, instead of a student from a Cal State, a student from a relatively unknown small liberal arts school on the east coast. The way you're making it sound now is that it's a Boy's Club, and I'm hoping I'm wrong in that conclusion.

It sounds like you're experienced in this area, and I'd really like to get some insight on this.

I'm not at liberty to address exactly how the process worked, but basically it's more an issue of academic rigor rather than "prestige" per se - but the perceived prestige of a school among adcom members is basically determined by the perceived academic rigor.

With thousands of applications per year, even small but academically solid liberal arts schools are familiar to adcoms and recognized for their merits. Graduates of these schools are not at a disadvantage compared to graduates of a major UC.

The idea of taking one student "over" another is a fallacy because that's not how determinations are made - it's one student at a time. The UC student with a low MCAT likely does not get an interview. The CSU student would only have a chance if GPA and MCAT are extremely high.

My point is that there is a huge difference between a top UC and a CSU school, not because UCs are preferred among all schools, but because there are hundreds of colleges that are seen to be significantly better than a CSU.
 
Honestly, this topic has been debated countless times, and the facts still remain the same.

I'm currently a high school senior and was in a similar situation. I applied to University of the Pacific, UCLA, UCI, UCR, UCSD, and CSULB. I got accepted into every school except UCLA. I ended up choosing CSULB because it seems to fit my situation. Does it fit yours?


I believe everyone who has posted, has made some valid points. I chose CSULB for several reasons which might be cons for other people. CSULB is significantly cheaper. I don't want to be in debt before I got to medical school. Nor do I want to my parents worry about paying the education of my siblings and I. I also don't like large class sizes. I'm the type of person that needs a more intimate environment and a teacher that is accessible. This would be harder at a UC in a classroom of hundreds of other students. I also know I will do much better at a CSU than at a UC. Obviously it is going to be harder to maintain a high GPA at a UC. I agree a lot of this is based on fear, but I'm just playing the medical school admission game. There are more research opportunities at UCs, but I know I'm the type of person who wants this bad enough, that I'll find some. While the environment, teacher, and speed of the class may differ in each school, the material is the same. Biochemistry is biochemistry regardless where it is taught. If you know your information it will reflect on your MCAT!


I'm not saying the name of the school doesn't matter, because it does! When your making your decision don't be bought solely by this. The name of school will always come after the GPA and the MCAT in terms of importance.


No one can tell you which school is best for you, trust me I've tried and after years and months of contemplating this, I was finally able to make my decision. Only you can make this decision. You will be at this school for at least 4 years of your life, so make sure you are certain! Good luck! :]
 
it is going to be harder to maintain a high GPA at a UC. I agree a lot of this is based on fear, but I'm just playing the medical school admission game.

And that is my point...you might think you're playing the medical school admission game with this strategy, but medical schools know the game too. A 4.0 at a CSU does not hold the same weight as a 4.0 from a UC, even if no one will officially say that.

I think some of your reasons are very valid, but out of all the reasons listed, maintaining a higher GPA is a not a good reason to go to a CSU.
That kind of thinking is a little backwards.

The reality is that there is no shortage of applicants from UC's that are applying to medical schools, especially the UC medical shools. Many of these applicants have outstanding GPA's and great MCAT scores, and some of them might not even get interviews. Like I said before, you put yourself at a SIGNIFICANT disadvantage if you're coming from a CSU.

Now, I'm not saying it's not possible to get into medical school if you went to a CSU. It's possible, but the odds are stacked against you. They are stacked against you even more if you're trying to go to a UC for medical school. Like I mentioned before, I've been on the adcom for my medical school (a UC), and you have to look at things from their point of view.

There are a limited amount of spots, and there are a limited amount of interview spots as well. Each school has hundreds, if not thousands of extremely qualified applicants. If a school chooses to interview a CSU student, that means that one less UC student, who probably has equal statistics, is not getting an interview. It's extremely hard to make that justfication, unless the CSU student has an amazing application (like jeebus mentioned above). Again...this is not a knock on CSU students. It has more to do with the fact that there are SO many qualified students who went to more competitive schools.

Getting into medical school is all about odds....even if you have a perfect application, there is no guarantee you will get in. However, the more strengths you have on your application, the better your odds are. I think I said this before, but in my class, 90% went to a UC, and the rest went to prestigious out of state schools such as Harvard, Princeton, MIT, University of Chicago etc. There is exactly ONE person who went to CSU, and that person applied as a disadvantaged student. There have been classes with no CSU students.

I think the tuition argument is very weak. The yearly tuition for a UC is about $10,000, while CSU tuition is about $4000 per year ($2,000 per semester). So that's a difference of $6,000 a year, or $24,000 for 4 years. That sounds like a lot of money, but there are a couple of things to keep in mind
1) Right now the tuition for a UC medical school is about $28,000 per year. So by the time you graduate medical school, that extra 24 K might hurt a little, but it's not going to make a significant difference.
2) Throw in the fact that you have very little chance of even getting into a UC for medical school...you're automatically looking at out of state tuition or private tuition for medical school, which at least $50,000 per year. Suddenly, your decision to attend a CSU to save $24,000 looks like a very bad one when you are paying almost double in tuition. Instead of paying $120,000 for tuition, you're paying $200,000. If you're playing odds, most likely your decision to save money will end costing you more money in the long run. Even if you have a scholarship at CSU, you end up breaking even at best in the long run (unless you're one of those rare people that end up going to a UC).
3) If money is your real motivating factor, then you might as well start off at a community college, then transfer to a UC and take most of your pre-med requirements there. Plenty of community college students who transfer to a UC and do well get into a UC for medical school. Again, it's because those students who transfer have a chance to show that they can do well at higher level of competition.

The other arguments, about smaller class size and more approachable faculty have their merits, but that's one of the reasons medical students like students who went to UC's. Being able to stand out in a class of 400 people is much more impressive than a class of 30. There is a lot more pressure to do well at a UC, and that's what adcoms want to see: someone who can handle a high stress, high pressure environment.

I think the CSU system is extremely good for a number of career choices, just not a very good one for medicine. It doesn't make sense why you would attend a CSU over a UC if you knew that you wanted to go to medical school. You're literally shooting yourself in the foot. If you don't believe me, contact the medical schools you're interested in, and find out how many people attended a CSU, and how many attended a UC.
 
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If money is your real motivating factor, then you might as well start off at a community college, then transfer to a UC and take most of your pre-med requirements there. Plenty of community college students who transfer to a UC and do well get into a UC for medical school. Again, it's because those students who transfer have a chance to show that they can do well at higher level of competition.

I agree with everything you said, and quoted this because it is a particularly good argument.

A CC -> UC transfer student will be much more successful in the med school application game than a CSU student, all things being equal. This is the ultimate money-saving option.
 
A 4.0 at a CSU does not hold the same weight as a 4.0 from a UC, even if no one will officially say that.

I'll take it one step further - A 4.0 at a CSU does not hold the same weight as a 3.7 from most UCs. I wouldn't think of the CSU as a scheme to increase your GPA in a numbers game, but as a handicap that lowers the maximum perceived academic achievement that one could attain.

Again, the few CSU students that were accepted, in my adcom experience, were not accepted because they had great numbers (although they had to have that also just to be looked at) but because they had unusual life achievements.
 
I think many reasons have already been given to you (OP) as to why one choice may or may not be better than the others. When I applied to college (many years ago) the Cal state was my "back up" school. I got accepted to all the UCs, I went to Cal (Berkeley). It was undoubtedly the hardest academic experience of my life, and the most rewarding. I will never regret my decision to go there, and my debt burdon is extremely manageable. People are right, your 3.7 from Cal holds more weight than your 4.0 from Cal state anything. It's hard enough getting into medical school and especially California Medical schools. Tip the scale in your favor a little bit....go to a UC. And just my bias, go to UC Berkeley. It is an excellent school, with excellent programs and there are ample resources (check out Biology scholars program, the Studen Learning Center, Professional Development Program) to help you get through your courses well.

My advisor at Cal once told me that Cal was like boot camp for life and I agree. If you can make it there, you can make it anywhere. Med school didn't seem so hard after my years at UC Berkeley. And it's an awesome location with a rich history and active student body.
 
3) If money is your real motivating factor, then you might as well start off at a community college, then transfer to a UC and take most of your pre-med requirements there. Plenty of community college students who transfer to a UC and do well get into a UC for medical school. Again, it's because those students who transfer have a chance to show that they can do well at higher level of competition.

This is actually a really good idea, it's what I did and it really worked out well. All UC's actually reserve a good portion of their seats for CC transfer students. Many of the UC's also have guaranteed transfer programs - for example, as long as you got B's in Gchem at the CC, you can get guaranteed admissions into the UCI Biology program, which is usually very impacted. I'm fairly sure UCLA has something similar.

It really gives you the best of both worlds - if you go to a strong science CC (Like Cypress or Goldenwest in So-cal), you can get professors who are much better teachers than you'll find at a big research school with much smaller class sizes ( 14 in my Ochem class), and then transfer to a UC, get your research in, and prove yourself with the competition of the upper level sciences.

Back to the OP, if your goal is to get into a UC med school, even though I hate having to play ball, I'd say you'd be better off going to a UC because you'd get away from the somewhat unfair broad assumptions about the school (CSU) being placed on you as an individual in your professional school application process.
 
Hello, sorry for jacking this thread a bit.....but the general consensus on SDN is that UC's are preferred over CSU's in terms of medical school admissions in CA.

Can anyone tell me about Cal Poly SLO's strength in placing students into medical school? Is it the same as CSULB?

Reason is that I will be attending Cal Poly SLO this fall and plan to do my pre-med years there.

Thank you.
 
Hello, sorry for jacking this thread a bit.....but the general consensus on SDN is that UC's are preferred over CSU's in terms of medical school admissions in CA.

Can anyone tell me about Cal Poly SLO's strength in placing students into medical school? Is it the same as CSULB?

Reason is that I will be attending Cal Poly SLO this fall and plan to do my pre-med years there.

Thank you.

It's going to be a similar situation, but if that's your only choice you'll have to make the best of it. Work hard.
 
Thank you everyone for your advice and insight! :)

I decided on UCLA and submitted my SIR last night.

(I chose a UC over a CSU as the advantage of a CSU for medical school would have been minimal if any according to your posts and others I talked to. Furthermore, I chose UCLA over the other two UCs as it had a medical school on campus, I loved the atmosphere there and is more social (in comparison to UCSD).)
 
You chose LA for the atmosphere and social life, not for the Md school because SD also has a medical school. :D ya
 
You chose LA for the atmosphere and social life, not for the Md school because SD also has a medical school. :D ya

I meant the medical school part for another reason over Berkeley. SD has a great medical school. :)
 
I'm a cc --> CSU student with a 3.59 GPA.

Bottom line most depressing thread I've read to date. *sigh*
 
What about CSU students that do a post bacc at a UC/private university?

Or what about students that do the post bacc and SFSU? What are their chances? How could the SFSU post bacc program survive if it had such poor applicant success?
 
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