Critical Care Anesthesiology Match

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Congrats to all CCM matches, yall will be great!

On the subject of anes sub-I: plenty of academic institutions have anes sub-I. In fact i did 2 months of it as a med student practically...

I also agree with FFP in that anes are REALLY well placed to be a good intensivist. Every other route to intensivists require a step up in acuity. For anes, most ICU pts are actually much less acute than a lot of OR situations (e.g. Trauma, CT, etc).

However, I will be applying to CT rather than CCM for fellowship because of a lot of similar reasons that FFP explained, as interns we do 4 months of ICU in all the types he mentioned. I totally agree with his sentiment that the market saturation/competition and the job dynamics makes it a lot less attractive to me. My hope is that i'm able to become board eligible for CCM after my CT fellowship.
What? I hope you don't think you can sit for CCM boards just with a CT fellowship. ;)

First, you simply can't without an ACGME-accredited CCM fellowship. Second, that one year is barely enough to scratch the surface. That fellowship should be two years, like in IM, or at least 1.5. You may think you're practicing CCM in the OR, but you're not. You may know bits and pieces of critical care, but you lack the grand perspective, no offense. Critical care may have a lot to do with anesthesia as technical skills and technology goes, but the underlying science is mostly internal medicine, which we are not the best at. We may be better short-term resuscitationists than many intensivists, but they are better at long-term outcomes.

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So you want to do CCM without doing a fellowship? There is no way you'll be adequately prepared after ACTA to sit for the CCM boards. I'm doing both (CCM and then ACTA) and couldn't imagine one year preparing you to be well versed in both....


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What? I hope you don't think you can sit for CCM boards just with a CT fellowship. ;)

Oh, sorry. I should elborate.

I was reading the ECHO thread earlier this month about how if you can somehow TAG ON 6 MONTHS OF ICU after your CT fellowship, it could potentially make you board eligible. (didn't do too much research on this yet since i'm kinda far out). Otherwise I might consider a CCM fellowship if my intellectual curiosity gets the best of me.

But i want to go on record saying that i understand doing a CT fellowship DOES NOT MAKE you qualified for CCM boards.
 
Oh, sorry. I should elborate.

I was reading the ECHO thread earlier this month about how if you can somehow TAG ON 6 MONTHS OF ICU after your CT fellowship, it could potentially make you board eligible. (didn't do too much research on this yet since i'm kinda far out).
That path is gone since 2010, I think. There used to be 18 month-long combined CT-CCM fellowships, basically by removing the elective parts of both. Then the slave drivers figured out that there were enough losers that would waste 2 full years, so why shortchange themselves?

And sorry, you pushed a button. Some members here think they could practice CCM at least as well as, if not better than, many intensivists.
 
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That path is gone since 2010, I think. There used to be combined 18 month-long CT-CCM fellowships, basically by removing the elective parts of both. Then the slave drivers figured out that there are enough losers who would waste 2 full years, so why shortchange themselves?

And sorry, you pushed a button. Some members here think they could practice CCM at least as well as, if not better than, many intensivists.

there was some recent talk that it was available, but i guess it's officially gone?

either way 6 months shouldn't matter that much in the long run if you really see the value in it. The problem, as you have stated, as i see it, is that the value isn't that high. For me personally, I might do it for the personal satisfaction / intellectual curiosity.

As far as non-ccm trained anes are better than intensivists. As you've said, anes has some advantages, but for the real ICU stuff, I seriously doubt members on this board could manage sepsis, DKA, Hyponatremia, etc better than an intensivist. #Dunning-Kruger
 
I couldn't prescribe antibiotic therapy better than a pgy2 surgery resident.....
I don't consider myself much better at that. One of the great weaknesses of most intensivists is poor knowledge of ID (aka vanc and zosyn). Heck, that's one of the weaknesses of some ID consultants, too. :)
 
I don't consider myself much better at that. One of the great weaknesses of most intensivists is poor knowledge of ID (aka vanc and zosyn). Heck, that's one of the weaknesses of some ID consultants, too. :)

Is it a weakness or is it all they have to offer?
 
Next level, I.e going from vanc/zosyn to metro/linezolid?

Next level is understanding concepts like Enterobacter resistance being highly inducible by third-gen cephalosporins, knowing common IDSA guidelines, knowing when to get respiratory viral panels/MRSA swabs, using procalcitonin/beta d glucan effectively, having a working knowledge of post liver transplant prophylaxis regimens, being able to read abdominal CTs well enough to know that a fluid collection probably needs tapped to get source control etc

Most ID consults are useless, but a good ID guy is worth his weight in gold when plan A isn't working. I met the best ID I'd ever seen this year during fellowship- not only was he a walking textbook, but the guy would spend an hour doing chart review if necessary, do an actual H&p, go down to micro to physically review specimens, go down to rads to read scans with the radiologist, and really just give you the feeling that he was truly an expert consultant.
 
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Next level is understanding concepts like Enterobacter resistance being highly inducible by third-gen cephalosporins, knowing common IDSA guidelines, knowing when to get respiratory viral panels/MRSA swabs, using procalcitonin/beta d glucan effectively, having a working knowledge of post liver transplant prophylaxis regimens, being able to read abdominal CTs well enough to know that a fluid collection probably needs tapped to get source control etc

I don't know what you just said but I'm glad you like it....so I don't have to.
 
Next level is understanding concepts like Enterobacter resistance being highly inducible by third-gen cephalosporins, knowing common IDSA guidelines, knowing when to get respiratory viral panels/MRSA swabs, using procalcitonin/beta d glucan effectively, having a working knowledge of post liver transplant prophylaxis regimens, being able to read abdominal CTs well enough to know that a fluid collection probably needs tapped to get source control etc

Most ID consults are useless, but a good ID guy is worth his weight in gold when plan A isn't working. I met the best ID I'd ever seen this year during fellowship- not only was he a walking textbook, but the guy would spend an hour doing chart review if necessary, do an actual H&p, go down to micro to physically review specimens, go down to rads to read scans with the radiologist, and really just give you the feeling that he was truly an expert consultant.

Couldn't agree more. Our ID guys are pretty fuc@in sharp where I am at. And, we have dedicated transplant ID guy's that can really get into the nuances of those patients and teach those nuances well.


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All you need is the latest Sanford Guide and your hospital antibiogram.
An intensivist where I trained would tell us (in his thick Irish accent):

"My greatest fear is that someday I'll be laying in an ICU bed somewhere, and an intern or resident will walk in, and I'll see he's got a Sanford Guide, and then I'll know I'm totally fooked."
 
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Oh, sorry. I should elborate.

I was reading the ECHO thread earlier this month about how if you can somehow TAG ON 6 MONTHS OF ICU after your CT fellowship, it could potentially make you board eligible. (didn't do too much research on this yet since i'm kinda far out). Otherwise I might consider a CCM fellowship if my intellectual curiosity gets the best of me.

But i want to go on record saying that i understand doing a CT fellowship DOES NOT MAKE you qualified for CCM boards.

Like FFP said, you used to be able to do this in the somewhat distant past but now you are essentially limited to 1 month of ICU (MAYBE an extra month if you are willing to forego elective TEE time, not advisable).

Most academics I talk to predict most CVICUs will be staffed by CCM-trained attendings rather than CT-only, right now several places allow both. Of course, who knows what's going to happen out in the community but until CCM is better reimbursed and more respected for their expertise it will continue to struggle to attract applicants (within anesthesiology at least).
 
People should do it if they really like it (it makes one a better doctor like few other things do). It's gratifying (one can truly save lives), but doesn't translate in better income, better lifestyle, or better anything (more like the opposite). I still have to see one critical care anesthesiologist who gets true respect and gratefulness from most surgeons, or true appreciation from his department chair. Most (available) jobs have a component of cardiac SICU, resulting in even less satisfaction. MICU is a different story, but few MICUs accept non-internists.

It's also a waste of $200-300K in lost wages, much more if compounded for 30 years.

With all respect man, I see a pattern in your posts.......
 
With all respect man, I see a pattern in your posts.......
Find my last post. Look to the left. Under my avatar, there is a link "FFP". Click on it. Now click "Ignore". Gone. Easy.

This way you won't have to ever read that pattern anymore. With all due respect. :)
 
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Find my last post. Look to the left. Under my avatar, there is a link "FFP". Click on it. Now click "Ignore". Gone. Easy.

This way you won't have to ever read that pattern anymore. With all due respect. :)

hahaha savage.
 
People should do it if they really like it (it makes one a better doctor like few other things do). It's gratifying (one can truly save lives), but doesn't translate in better income, better lifestyle, or better anything (more like the opposite). I still have to see one critical care anesthesiologist who gets true respect and gratefulness from most surgeons, or true appreciation from his department chair. Most (available) jobs have a component of cardiac SICU, resulting in even less satisfaction. MICU is a different story, but few MICUs accept non-internists.

It's also a waste of $200-300K in lost wages, much more if compounded for 30 years.

In the OR cardiac surgeons are the ones most likely to have respect, express gratitude for our services, and appreciate the difference beteeen good and average anesthesia. So it's interesting that it doesn't translate into CTICU but maybe that's because routine postop cardiac care is routine??
 
In the OR cardiac surgeons are the ones most likely to have respect, express gratitude for our services, and appreciate the difference beteeen good and average anesthesia. So it's interesting that it doesn't translate into CTICU but maybe that's because routine postop cardiac care is routine??
If it were so routine, why do they need intensivists for it? They should just hire some APRNs of their own, and find out what the word "routine" really means. ;)
 
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If it were so routine, why do they need intensivists for it? They should just hire some APRNs of their own, and find out what the word "routine" really means. ;)

They don't. Both our MICU/SICU are staffed by full-time pulm/ICU doctors but they don't routinely round on the cardiac surgery or trauma patients. Our cardiac surgeons and trauma surgeons manage their own patients in the ICU.

Honestly I question some of the decisions and nonaction of our ICU docs. Just last week I brought a hypotensive uroseptic patient to the OR who was on vasopressin and levophed going through 1 20g peripheral IV and no Aline. The nurse was very grateful when I returned the patient adequately resuscitated with an 8fr 2lumen central line and an Aline.
 
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They don't. Both our MICU/SICU are staffed by full-time pulm/ICU doctors but they don't routinely round on the cardiac surgery or trauma patients. Our cardiac surgeons and trauma surgeons manage their own patients in the ICU.
And that's perfectly fine. I prefer to let them f up their own patients without my participation. Btw, trauma surgeons are intensivists; cardiac surgeons (and cardiologists or anesthesiologists) are not, despite trying to play one.
Honestly I question some of the decisions and nonaction of our ICU docs. Just last week I brought a hypotensive uroseptic patient to the OR who was on vasopressin and levophed going through 1 20g peripheral IV and no Aline. The nurse was very grateful when I returned the patient adequately resuscitated with an 8fr 2lumen central line and an Aline.
Respectfully, that's why one does a critical care fellowship. What one gains is the perspective, seeing the forest not just the trees, focusing on long-term outcomes and patient benefit, not on knee-jerk rules (every patient on pressors needs a-line and central line) or pleasing the nurses (who have very little competence in judging how a patient should be treated).

In your particular case, a central line was probably indicated. The A-line is always debatable in the ICU, because some patients are pretty stable even on 2 pressors, so one does not need beat to beat BP, not even every 5 minutes. I have had relatively healthy urosepsis patients who I have managed just on high-dose peripheral phenylephrine, no lines. We put in too many lines, and they come with serious risks, especially infectious ones.

As anesthesiologists, we are used to micromanaging our patients, because we abolish so many of their reflexes, and there is ongoing surgical insult and bleeding. In the ICU, we try to keep as many of those reflexes as possible, the patients are not as deep, so there is much less need for micromanagement, unless there is an acute situation. That big picture is what most people playing intensivist, without the proper training, are lacking. As a fellow, when I refused an ICU admission, in most cases it was because I was afraid the patient would get worse in the ICU from a nosocomial infection or from overtreatment. Many healthcare workers, especially nurses and midlevels, have this tendency of thinking that we are better than nature at healing, that getting "good numbers" will translate into better outcomes. Less is sometimes more.

Modern medicine has made us arrogant, and more and more we forget about our major tenet: first do no harm. Just because we can doesn't mean we should. We have to properly understand the particular patient's physiology and situation before we decide that the benefits seriously outweigh the risks. There is no procedure, no medication, no intervention without risk. Even the tylenol knee-jerk nurses give for fever can worsen outcomes. The patient won't necessarily get better just because he looks better on paper.

So, whenever you "resuscitate" an ICU patient in the OR, ask yourself what part of the picture you are missing. Some intensivists just suck, but sometimes it's the anesthesiologist who doesn't know what s/he doesn't know (e.g the kind that puts liters of fluid into the patient and then proudly announces to the surgeon that the patient is off pressors, or the kind that ventilates an already hypoxic patient with 8-10 ml/kg of actual body weight etc.). Respectfully (because you have much more experience than me, if I remember well).
 
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And that's perfectly fine. I prefer to let them f up their own patients without my participation. Btw, trauma surgeons are intensivists; cardiac surgeons (and cardiologists or anesthesiologists) are not, despite trying to play one.

Respectfully, that's why one does a critical care fellowship. What one gains is the perspective, seeing the forest not just the trees, focusing on long-term outcomes and patient benefit, not on knee-jerk rules (every patient on pressors needs a-line and central line) or pleasing the nurses (who have very little competence in judging how a patient should be treated).

In your particular case, a central line was probably indicated. The A-line is always debatable in the ICU, because some patients are pretty stable even on 2 pressors, so one does not need beat to beat BP, not even every 5 minutes. I have had relatively healthy urosepsis patients who I have managed just on high-dose peripheral phenylephrine, no lines. We put in too many lines, and they come with serious risks, especially infectious ones.

As anesthesiologists, we are used to micromanaging our patients, because we abolish so many of their reflexes, and there is ongoing surgical insult and bleeding. In the ICU, we try to keep as many of those reflexes as possible, the patients are not as deep, so there is much less need for micromanagement, unless there is an acute situation. That big picture is what most people playing intensivist, without the proper training, are lacking. As a fellow, when I refused an ICU admission, in most cases it was because I was afraid the patient would get worse in the ICU from a nosocomial infection or from overtreatment. Many healthcare workers, especially nurses and midlevels, have this tendency of thinking that we are better than nature at healing, that getting "good numbers" will translate into better outcomes. Less is sometimes more.

Modern medicine has made us arrogant, and more and more we forget about our major tenet: first do no harm. Just because we can doesn't mean we should. We have to properly understand the particular patient's physiology and situation before we decide that the benefits seriously outweigh the risks. There is no procedure, no medication, no intervention without risk. Even the tylenol knee-jerk nurses give for fever can worsen outcomes. The patient won't necessarily get better just because he looks better on paper.

So, whenever you "resuscitate" an ICU patient in the OR, ask yourself what part of the picture you are missing. Some intensivists just suck, but sometimes it's the anesthesiologist who doesn't know what s/he doesn't know (e.g the kind that puts liters of fluid into the patient and then proudly announces to the surgeon that the patient is off pressors, or the kind that ventilates an already hypoxic patient with 8-10 ml/kg of actual body weight etc.). Respectfully (because you have much more experience than me, if I remember well).


And respectfully because the icu team spends 10min at the bedside twice a day and gets their data from the nurse's flowsheet, they are often missing the type of intimate familiarity with how a patient actually is doing that is routine for the bedside nurse and the anesthesiologist. She probably wasn't seen by ANY physician except the urologist for at least 6+hrs before I transported her to the OR. This patient's hemodynamics were tenuous when I picked her up and stable when I dropped her off. And we'll have to disagree about who is best able to manage the fresh postop hearts. I wouldn't trust our medical intensivists.
 
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And respectfully because the icu team spends 10min at the bedside twice a day and gets their data from the nurse's flowsheet, they are often missing the type of intimate familiarity with how a patient actually is doing that is routine for the bedside nurse and the anesthesiologist. She probably wasn't seen by ANY physician except the urologist for at least 6+hrs before I transported her to the OR. This patient's hemodynamics were tenuous when I picked her up and stable when I dropped her off. And we'll have to disagree about who is best able to manage the fresh postop hearts. I wouldn't trust our medical intensivists.
Oh, we don't disagree about that. I have seen enough medical intensivists with no clue regarding surgical patients (the same way some of us don't get enough MICU during fellowship). I just think anesthesiologist intensivists have a better understanding of the pathology than cardiac surgeons ("who spend 10 minutes a day with the patient").

Regarding the 10 minutes, again I totally agree. I once produced quite a storm on the CC section by saying that I would rather have a regular cardiac anesthesiologist resuscitate me in the ICU than a non-anesthesiologist intensivist. Some medical intensivists have exactly the approach you mentioned, especially in a community setting: they round on the patient for 10-15 minutes and then they are gone, as if their patients were on the regular floors. That's not my style, except for patients on their way out of the ICU. I typically circle back, the sicker the patient the more frequently (evaluate-treat-reevaluate), probably due to my anesthesiologist (and perfectionist) mentality. But it's very much the medical style; I used to chastise my medical residents when they were doing exactly what you described and not showing up promptly at the bedside of an acute situation.

The problem with most community ICUs is that they don't want to spend the money on the "black hole" of intensive care, including proper intensivist staffing. The ER is a black hole, too, but one that directs business to the hospital. What the bean counters want from the ICU is to move the meat, get patients out of the ICU ASAP, even try to convince families to make patients comfort care instead of being admitted in the first place. They will have APRNs providing knee jerk protocolized care, with a hospitalist or remote eICU doc, who know crap about the patient, supervising. And, of course, they try to sell it as "modern" critical care. Nothing beats getting to know the patient's particular physiology, by spending a lot of time at the bedside, the way we do in the OR; it's just way too expensive for intensive care.
 
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