Creighton vs. Wayne State vs. VTC

[slimshady 22]

Trying to decide between these schools for now. On the waitlist for two more schools that I'll attend over these three if I get in. The costs are basically the same for all them except for VTC being cheaper to live in, but at the end of the day the difference wouldn't be anything significant. Currently, I'm interested in competitive surgical specialties. I know that interests might change but am pretty set on Orthopedic surgery now and I'm not sure its going to change much, and even if it does I will probably choose another surgical subspecialty. so ideally want to choose the medschool that's going to give me the best chance for residency.

Creighton:
Pros

• CHI Health System has a strong presence in Omaha
• Brand new and state-of-the-art Werner Center for Health Sciences Building for the start of fall 2023
• The VERY collaborative student environment
• H/P/F with no (that I know of) rankings that still give the incentive to excel in pre-clinical
• Non-mandatory pre-clinical with a lot of pre-recorded lecture
• Medium Class size of 120

Cons

• Not huge into religion
• Research is not as readily available (low funding compared to other schools)
• 2 year pre-clinical
• Doesn't have any home residency programs in surgical specialties
• Unraked?? Don't know how much of a role this plays
• Match list ins't bad but I think Wayne State's is slightly better for competitive specialties
• Not P/F, but H/P/F all four years

VTC:
Pros

1. Small class size so better faculty relationships - LOR, etc.
2. NBME exam format
3. P/F grading first two years (I don't know if this is good or bad for competitive apps so if someone can tell me)
4. A lot of emphasis on research. My app was research based and I did a lot of research in undergrad that I want to continue doing and VTC seems perfect for that
5. Research might also help with matching
6. Really good fit with all my interests in research and other stuff

Cons

1. Don't like living in a small town. Visited Roanoke for my interview and didn't really like the place. I lived major cities all my life and don't really like the idea of living in a small town like Roanoke.
2. Don't have home residencies in some surgical specialties. Have plastic and Neurosurgery but nor orthopedic surgery I think
3. Have a research institute next to them, but a lot of it is bench lab research that I might not do anyways, clinical research seems to be on the lower side, but still has the best research opportunities among the three schools I think.
4. Don't like the PBL structure. I prefer having online classes that I can watch and learn by myself, and VTC has mandatory PBL classes 3 days a week and their curriculum is structured around that.
5. Don;t think its completely P/F first two years as well, since there's the option of getting honors

Wayne State
Pros

1. Highest ranked out the three I think, but not by much, so shouldn't play any role
2. Like the idea of living in the heart of Detroit
3. A lot of places for clinical training and a lot of hospitals around
4. A lot of hospitals around the school to find research in the area I'm interested in.
5. Although Wayne State doesn't seem to have home residencies, I think its partnered with Henry Ford and other hospitals around Detroit that have residencies in all fields.

Cons

1. Huge class size (300)
2. Admin not that supportive I think
3. Even though its partnered, the school itself doesn't have home residency programs
4. Don't know about the research opportunities and if they're comprehensive
5. Might need to get a car
6. break schedule is small (one week in september, december, and june) and school starts on July 1st itself
7. Not P/F, I think its tiered grading for pre-clinical and Clinical and they rank students, which the other two schools don't.

Not sure how I go about choosing, as I'm not really which will give me the best opportunities and appreciate any help.

Thanks.

---

Members don't see this ad.

 

[chilly_md]

I would take Creighton off the table if they don't have home programs in those specialties. Then, you have two extremes in a way since VTech has one of the smallest class sizes while Wayne has one of the biggest for US MD schools. P/F is better to have. You would likely get more support for your goals and mentorship at VTC (even if it comes from a different area of surgery). I am sure they can find a contact too for ortho.

@Putkernerinthehall has some good insight into VTC.

 

[slimshady 22]

I would take Creighton off the table if they don't have home programs in those specialties. Then, you have two extremes in a way since VTech has one of the smallest class sizes while Wayne has one of the biggest for US MD schools. P/F is better to have. You would likely get more support for your goals and mentorship at VTC (even if it comes from a different area of surgery). I am sure they can find a contact too for ortho.

@Putkernerinthehall has some good insight into VTC.

Thanks for letting me know. It's just that the Creighton AZ campus has Barrows and Mayo close by, both of which do a lot of research in Neuro and Ortho. I'm just worried that since VTC has nothing around it close by so I'll have to work with people from afar. Also, not sure how strong VTC's match list is since they don't publish it.

 

[TheHomelander]

Thanks for letting me know. It's just that the Creighton AZ campus has Barrows and Mayo close by, both of which do a lot of research in Neuro and Ortho. I'm just worried that since VTC has nothing around it close by so I'll have to work with people from afar. Also, not sure how strong VTC's match list is since they don't publish it.

I was also seriously considering VTC and actually did PTE before being admitted to my #1, and I was also curious about their match list. I watched their 2023 match ceremony, used a couple more news articles published by VTC etc, and this list was the best I could put together (keep in mind there may be small errors but overall I think its accurate):

South Carolina, Columbia – EM
Maryland – Anesthesia
Maryland – Pediatrics
Maryland – EM & IM
MGH – IM
U of Vermont – Neurology
Brigham Harvard – Child Psychiatry
Brigham Harvard – Child Psychiatry
UMass – IM
Kaiser Santa Clara – OBGYN
Emory – Diagnostic Rads
UCSF – Gen Surg
Albert Einstein – Anesthesiology
Carolina Medical Center – OBGYN
Duke – Family Med
WashU – EM
UNC – Peds
USC – Internal Med
Carilion Clinic – OBGYN
UCSD – IM
Emory – ENT
Maryland – Psychiatry
Swedish Med Center, Seattle – Gen Surg
Swedish Med Center, Seattle – Gen Surg
Carilion Clinic – OBGYN
Duke – IM
WashU – OBGYN
Medical College of Wisconsin – Neurosurgery
Case Western – PM&R
University of Virginia – Diagnostic Rads
Yale-New Haven – EM
Columbia – IM
University of Virginia – Peds
New Hanover Regional Medical Center – OBGYN
Carilion Clinic – EM
Carilion Clinic – Neurosurgery
Yale-New Haven – Gen Surgery



At least one match at Hopkins, can’t figure out specialty, probably IM
2 IM - unsure where
3 Gen Surg - unsure where
1 Anesthesia - unsure where

 

[chilly_md]

Thanks for letting me know. It's just that the Creighton AZ campus has Barrows and Mayo close by, both of which do a lot of research in Neuro and Ortho. I'm just worried that since VTC has nothing around it close by so I'll have to work with people from afar. Also, not sure how strong VTC's match list is since they don't publish it.

Are you at Creighton AZ or the main Omaha campus? The things you were listing as pros are aspects of the Omaha campus and usually people say Creighton AZ in these threads when comparing schools.

 

[slimshady 22]

Are you at Creighton AZ or the main Omaha campus? The things you were listing as pros are aspects of the Omaha campus and usually people say Creighton AZ in these threads when comparing schools.

Creighton Omaha, but want to switch to the AZ campus if I choose Creighton since my parents actually moved to AZ recently, but don't really have any requirements to stay near family or anything.

 

[slimshady 22]

I was also seriously considering VTC and actually did PTE before being admitted to my #1, and I was also curious about their match list. I watched their 2023 match ceremony, used a couple more news articles published by VTC etc, and this list was the best I could put together (keep in mind there may be small errors but overall I think its accurate):

South Carolina, Columbia – EM
Maryland – Anesthesia
Maryland – Pediatrics
Maryland – EM & IM
MGH – IM
U of Vermont – Neurology
Brigham Harvard – Child Psychiatry
Brigham Harvard – Child Psychiatry
UMass – IM
Kaiser Santa Clara – OBGYN
Emory – Diagnostic Rads
UCSF – Gen Surg
Albert Einstein – Anesthesiology
Carolina Medical Center – OBGYN
Duke – Family Med
WashU – EM
UNC – Peds
USC – Internal Med
Carilion Clinic – OBGYN
UCSD – IM
Emory – ENT
Maryland – Psychiatry
Swedish Med Center, Seattle – Gen Surg
Swedish Med Center, Seattle – Gen Surg
Carilion Clinic – OBGYN
Duke – IM
WashU – OBGYN
Medical College of Wisconsin – Neurosurgery
Case Western – PM&R
University of Virginia – Diagnostic Rads
Yale-New Haven – EM
Columbia – IM
University of Virginia – Peds
New Hanover Regional Medical Center – OBGYN
Carilion Clinic – EM
Carilion Clinic – Neurosurgery
Yale-New Haven – Gen Surgery



At least one match at Hopkins, can’t figure out specialty, probably IM
2 IM - unsure where
3 Gen Surg - unsure where
1 Anesthesia - unsure where

Thank you for this. Looks like their surgery match is really good with people going to UCSF and yale and all.

 

[chilly_md]

Creighton Omaha, but want to switch to the AZ campus if I choose Creighton since my parents actually moved to AZ recently, but don't really have any requirements to stay near family or anything.

Mayo AZ and Arizona Phoenix are also right there and likely competing for the same resources.

 

[Putkernerinthehall]

VTC:
Pros

1. Small class size so better faculty relationships - LOR, etc.
2. NBME exam format
3. P/F grading first two years (I don't know if this is good or bad for competitive apps so if someone can tell me)
4. A lot of emphasis on research. My app was research based and I did a lot of research in undergrad that I want to continue doing and VTC seems perfect for that
5. Research might also help with matching
6. Really good fit with all my interests in research and other stuff

Cons

1. Don't like living in a small town. Visited Roanoke for my interview and didn't really like the place. I lived major cities all my life and don't really like the idea of living in a small town like Roanoke.
2. Don't have home residencies in some surgical specialties. Have plastic and Neurosurgery but nor orthopedic surgery I think
3. Have a research institute next to them, but a lot of it is bench lab research that I might not do anyways, clinical research seems to be on the lower side, but still has the best research opportunities among the three schools I think.
4. Don't like the PBL structure. I prefer having online classes that I can watch and learn by myself, and VTC has mandatory PBL classes 3 days a week and their curriculum is structured around that.
5. Don;t think its completely P/F first two years as well, since there's the option of getting honors

Not sure how I go about choosing, as I'm not really which will give me the best opportunities and appreciate any help.

VTC is P/F for M1 & M2. They do offer "letters of distinction" at the conclusion of M2 in five categories (Basic Science, Clinical Science, PBL, Research, and something called HSSI(?) which includes things like ethics, professionalism, health systems, etc.).

Virginia Tech is a unique school. I have a friend there. One observation from my friend is the dedication and caring nature of the staff and faculty. The small class size creates an incredible community wherein the staff, faculty, and students really know each other well. It's a very caring / nurturing environment. This is a huge plus for my friend.

PBL is, as you noted, a major part of the curriculum. Anecdotally, it seems pretty popular with the students at VTC. It has been enormously impactful for my friend. First year is more challenging, second year a little easier with fewer presentations. There are a lot of in class hours at VTC, particularly during first year. Lots of clinical skills training. I think it's manageable but, yes, you'll be at the school a lot the first 20 months or so. And, as a result, you will be more than ready for 3rd year rotations.

The research element is built into the program and the structure will keep you on track. The research arm of the school / health system is literally adjacent (attached) to the medical school. The hospital is a few hundred yards from the school. It's all right there. No driving around for anything except maybe once per block for the preclinical years' outpatient/preceptor experience --- depending on where you get assigned.

Winter weather is milder than Omaha or Detroit.

Good luck!

 

[slimshady 22]

VTC is P/F for M1 & M2. They do offer "letters of distinction" at the conclusion of M2 in five categories (Basic Science, Clinical Science, PBL, Research, and something called HSSI(?) which includes things like ethics, professionalism, health systems, etc.).

Virginia Tech is a unique school. I have a friend there. One observation from my friend is the dedication and caring nature of the staff and faculty. The small class size creates an incredible community wherein the staff, faculty, and students really know each other well. It's a very caring / nurturing environment. This is a huge plus for my friend.

PBL is, as you noted, a major part of the curriculum. Anecdotally, it seems pretty popular with the students at VTC. It has been enormously impactful for my friend. First year is more challenging, second year a little easier with fewer presentations. There are a lot of in class hours at VTC, particularly during first year. Lots of clinical skills training. I think it's manageable but, yes, you'll be at the school a lot the first 20 months or so. And, as a result, you will be more than ready for 3rd year rotations.

The research element is built into the program and the structure will keep you on track. The research arm of the school / health system is literally adjacent (attached) to the medical school. The hospital is a few hundred yards from the school. It's all right there. No driving around for anything except maybe once per block for the preclinical years' outpatient/preceptor experience --- depending on where you get assigned.

Winter weather is milder than Omaha or Detroit.

Good luck!

Thank you very much for the detailed response. The few things I'm concerned about are the complete PBL structure of the classes, and the fact that they don't have all home residencies, and the location. Do you think its worth it to choose VTC for its small class size and attention to students over Wayne State despite these. I realize that Wayne State is completely opposite in that its a really large school and we might not get that much attention from staff, but I attended a large public school for undergrad, so I guess I'm kind of used to it. And although Wayne State doesn't have all residencies, I think the hospitals its close to or associated with it have everything, and I keep hearing people talking about how important home residency programs are. As for research, I think I'm going to be doing research either way, so the presence of the research element in the curriculum or lack of doesn't matter I guess. So I'm not sure if I should choose VTC over Wayne for these. Also, not exactly sure if Wayne is P/F, can someone let me know if it is or not.

 

[Putkernerinthehall]

Thank you very much for the detailed response. The few things I'm concerned about are the complete PBL structure of the classes, and the fact that they don't have all home residencies, and the location. Do you think its worth it to choose VTC for its small class size and attention to students over Wayne State despite these. I realize that Wayne State is completely opposite in that its a really large school and we might not get that much attention from staff, but I attended a large public school for undergrad, so I guess I'm kind of used to it. And although Wayne State doesn't have all residencies, I think the hospitals its close to or associated with it have everything, and I keep hearing people talking about how important home residency programs are. As for research, I think I'm going to be doing research either way, so the presence of the research element in the curriculum or lack of doesn't matter I guess. So I'm not sure if I should choose VTC over Wayne for these. Also, not exactly sure if Wayne is P/F, can someone let me know if it is or not.

I really don't want to sway you as I'm not familiar with Wayne State. Three things that would concern me include: location/weather isn't great, school ranking is not great, and the class size is absolutely enormous. VTC's ranking isn't great either but it's a newer school. Wayne has been around a while and it's still not what I'd consider a mid-tier.

From what I understand, PBL at VTC is a couple hours on Monday, 3 hours Wed, and maybe a couple more plus patient wrap up on Friday. PBL workload is lighter in year 2. Basic science lectures are Tues/Thurs I think. So it is a mix of lectures and PBL.

I can't really weigh in on the importance of home residencies. Match list posted above shows VTC is pretty strong. I'm sure you've looked at Wayne. I mean you can definitely match decently from Wayne.

Class size might be something that benefits you in a way you've not considered. My friend went to big, highly rated, competitive flagship state school and absolutely loves the small / family feel at VTC. But it may or may not influence you the same way.

You might DM some folks at Wayne and VTC from the individual school threads. Usually you can find some current students in those threads that are willing to share candidly. Good luck!

 

[slimshady 22]

Mayo AZ and Arizona Phoenix are also right there and likely competing for the same resources.

So, would you suggest Wayne State of VTC over either of the Creighton campuses.

 

[Putkernerinthehall]

Couple additional things about VTC:

1) The class tends to me more non-traditional --- older, more settled, some with graduate degrees, maybe lengthier research backgrounds, some married, maybe a couple with kids, etc. This might be something to consider

2) Following each block of classes in M1 & M2 is a "special studies week" ---- for remediation if needed, or research, or shadowing, or EC's, or (for some) an entire week off plus the weekends on the front and back end.

Not trying to sway, but pointing out some things you might not be aware of.

 

[chilly_md]

So, would you suggest Wayne State of VTC over either of the Creighton campuses.

VTC in my opinion.

They had 80 M3 spots for Henry Ford since Michigan State is starting to partner with them more. So Wayne students will use DMC instead according to some current students who posted in the school-specific thread.

 

[Putkernerinthehall]

So, would you suggest Wayne State of VTC over either of the Creighton campuses.

Also, there are several Wayne State vs. Creighton threads from 2020-2023. Those might be of interest to you.

 

[parquetshorts]

Not a Creighton student myself, but I'm at UNMC just a few miles away. A lot of Creighton students get involved with research opportunities at UNMC, and there are an abundance of options for summer research projects here as well as clinical projects through some of the hospitals in Omaha. Additionally, Creighton students seem to have a slight leg up for UNMC surgical residencies compared to students from Med schools outside of Nebraska. So while Creighton itself may be limited in terms of home research and home residency programs, it does benefit by having UNMC nearby. Most of the people I know personally who went to Creighton seemed to really enjoy it as well! Just my 2 cents.

 

[slimshady 22]

Hello everyone, thank you for all the points you guys brought up. I ended up getting in off the waitlist at my schools, so will choose them. But for future references, was mainly leaning towards VTC because of its small class size, P/F curriculum and the research aspect.