Creationists in Med School?

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Welcome to the most useless thread on SDN.

Just do your job and be more accepting of everyone's beliefs. Nobody has all the answers - no, not even science.

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Welcome to the most useless thread on SDN.

Just do your job and be more accepting of everyone's beliefs. Nobody has all the answers - no, not even science.
This thread demonstrates the need for good science communication and has allowed people to discuss important ideas and maybe change their minds about some things.

Obviously science doesn't "have all the answers". It never claims to. But you know what does make that claim? Religion and spiritualism. They're just really bad at finding real answers and making reliable predictions. They're bad ways of knowing and this implicit proposal that there's validity to religion as an epistemological tool, because "science doesn't have all the answers" is incorrect.
 
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This thread also shows the lengths individuals will go to justify unsubstantiated beliefs
 
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This thread also shows the lengths individuals will go to justify unsubstantiated beliefs
But bro! Science don't know everything, so this thread is dumb!

Also, let's conflate disagreement with disrespecting people! That's honest.
 
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the God of the Gaps is alive and well on SDN
 
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Welcome to the most useless thread on SDN.

Just do your job and be more accepting of everyone's beliefs. Nobody has all the answers - no, not even science.

Would you be saying the same thing if you found your doctor to be say a Scientologist? If your surgeon believed embryology was the work of the devil?
 
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This thread demonstrates the need for good science communication and has allowed people to discuss important ideas and maybe change their minds about some things.

Obviously science doesn't "have all the answers". It never claims to. But you know what does make that claim? Religion and spiritualism. They're just really bad at finding real answers and making reliable predictions. They're bad ways of knowing and this implicit proposal that there's validity to religion as an epistemological tool, because "science doesn't have all the answers" is incorrect.

Would you be saying the same thing if you found your doctor to be say a Scientologist? If your surgeon believed embryology was the work of the devil?

Senpai, I don't see how I'm going to be a bad doctor for believing in reincarnation, or God, or anything else. As long as my beliefs don't interrupt my mission, and don't hurt any patients - I don't see why someone should be criticized for it in medicine. You're questioning religion (which is fine on your own time) but don't reprimand anyone who has made peace with it.

FBurnaby, I don't see how that would affect me as a patient or as a physician. That type of conversation never comes up with patients and physicians. The only beliefs that matter are your patients - it's their health not yours.
 
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Senpai, I don't see how I'm going to be a bad doctor for believing in reincarnation, or God, or anything else. As long as my beliefs don't interrupt my mission, and don't hurt any patients - I don't see why someone should be criticized for it in medicine. You're questioning religion (which is fine on your own time) but don't reprimand anyone who has made peace with it.

FBurnaby, I don't see how that would affect me as a patient or as a physician. That type of conversation never comes up with patients and physicians. The only beliefs that matter are your patients - it's their health not yours.
I never said nor insinuated that you'd be a bad doctor. In fact, I suggested the opposite earlier on ITT.

You're not being reprimanded. You're being criticized and your ideas being disagreed with. This is a forum. Make peace with that.
 
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This is very bad inference....
If I had ten balls each with a +/- integer inscribed on it and the sum of all my ball equates to 0. I do not then infer that I have no balls.
NP: I do not have a dog in this fight, just wanted to nitpick on this. Your arguments have been solid though

Really? That is a terrible analogy that doesn't even apply. If you + ball and - ball destroyed each other when they interacted, you would indeed have 0 balls. Annihilation is kinda important to bring up your are taking to talk about sum energy in the Universe.
 
Senpai, I don't see how I'm going to be a bad doctor for believing in reincarnation, or God, or anything else. As long as my beliefs don't interrupt my mission, and don't hurt any patients - I don't see why someone should be criticized for it in medicine. You're questioning religion (which is fine on your own time) but don't reprimand anyone who has made peace with it.

FBurnaby, I don't see how that would affect me as a patient or as a physician. That type of conversation never comes up with patients and physicians. The only beliefs that matter are your patients - it's their health not yours.

They often do though (not saying this is true for everyone, but again it comes down to picking and choosing) - if you are a devote catholic, how do you square giving birth control, abortions, etc to your patients? You d0n't think people let their religion seep into the decisions they make as a physician? If your faith allows you to not follow the evidence of evolution, why should we think that other aspects of medicine won't be similarly effected?
 
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You d0n't think people let their religion seep into the decisions they make as a physician? If your faith allows you to not follow the evidence of evolution, why should we think that other aspects of medicine won't be similarly effected?

This the main point, and it's difficult to deny. You can teach a flat earth believer to be a skilled seaman, but I still wouldn't trust his judgement off at sea.
 
I didn't think the dumb would penetrate this far into the realms of medicine, but here I am, deep into second semester, realizing that a handful of my classmates are Ken Ham-caliber creationists, and reject the fundamental theory of biology. I can't even with these people anymore.

Oh do shut up.
 
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If you cannot get along with people based on their religious belief then you need social counseling.


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This is such a ****ing dumb comment. There are literally millions of people and entire countries that believe women are property and don't have rights. These beliefs are entirely founded from their religion. I don't get along with them and you are saying I am the one who needs "social counseling"?
 
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This is such a ****ing dumb comment. There are literally millions of people and entire countries that believe women are property and don't have rights. These beliefs are entirely founded from their religion. I don't get along with them and you are saying I am the one who needs "social counseling"?
They don't want their "sincerely held beliefs" challenged and they think it appropriate to conflate disagreement with personal attacks in an attempt to shame people who don't treat their beliefs like they're untouchable. This is a product of our culture which gives wholly undue and incredibly dishonest special protection to religious ideas, to the extent that challenging them opens one up to being labeled as intolerant, among other more colorful strawmen.
 
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This is such a ****ing dumb comment. There are literally millions of people and entire countries that believe women are property and don't have rights. These beliefs are entirely founded from their religion. I don't get along with them and you are saying I am the one who needs "social counseling"?

I have yet to run into someone who has that belief. Maybe they do. Idk. But at work and school it is such. Work and school. If they are respectful of me then I will be respectful of them. I don't need to know about there personal life to be nice.


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A lot of people in this discussion are misusing or not clearly defining what they mean by various terms including "creationism" and "evolution." I used to be an atheist Darwinist. The term creationist is loaded and people often use it to refer to very different beliefs.

I currently believe in intelligent design over Darwinism. To clarify, I accept micro evolution, reject macro evolution, reject abiogenesis. I believe the earth is billions of years old and that there was a Big Bang. If there was a Big Bang, I think something must have caused the Big Bang and caused the universe to be created. I think the universe had a beginning and that before it, there was "nothing." Some scientists misuse the term nothing to mean Strings or waves and say that's how something came from nothing, but I mean nothing as in the ABSENCE OF ANYTHING.

Many people who believe creationism or intelligent design have a hard time organizing their reasons because there are so few textbooks or resources explaining the reasons for supporting intelligent design.
This is a good resources defending ID and addressing many of the common attacks against intelligent design.

http://www.evolutionnews.org/backtoschoolguide.pdf
 
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I agree that creation is untestable and I understand that some scientists have a problem with that. Macro evolution itself has not been tested (depending on your definition of what distinguishes macro from micro). We use micro evolution as a model of macro evolution but we have not take the time (1,000s if not 1,000,000s of years) to observe one species break off into something new entirely (again dinos to birds). We just have the fossil record to give us clues and help us make guesses about what happened, but we have not actually tested it. Again my point is that just because Christians hold a different belief about the past does not impact our clinical reasoning or performance in school, which I think we both agree on.

I love this argument because it just shows a simple lack of understanding. The mechanism of what you call macro-evolution is the same mechanism by which micro-evolution exists. Also, in reality evolution is not sub-divided in this way. We don't claim that theories, or laws, like kinetics change as a variable of time. Time is only a measure for a kinetics, the physical properties of things may change what theories apply scientifically, but that is not the same thing as time.

It is very simple to observe the phenomena of evolutionary mechanisms. I'd recommend you spend time in a molecular biology lab.
 
A lot of people in this discussion are misusing or not clearly defining what they mean by various terms including "creationism" and "evolution." I used to be an atheist Darwinist. The term creationist is loaded and people often use it to refer to very different beliefs.

I currently believe in intelligent design over Darwinism. To clarify, I accept micro evolution, reject macro evolution, reject abiogenesis. I believe the earth is billions of years old and that there was a Big Bang. If there was a Big Bang, I think something must have caused the Big Bang and caused the universe to be created. I think the universe had a beginning and that before it, there was "nothing." Some scientists misuse the term nothing to mean Strings or waves and say that's how something came from nothing, but I mean nothing as in the ABSENCE OF ANYTHING.

Many people who believe creationism or intelligent design have a hard time organizing their reasons because there are so few textbooks or resources explaining the reasons for supporting intelligent design.
This is a good resources defending ID and addressing many of the common attacks against intelligent design.

http://www.evolutionnews.org/backtoschoolguide.pdf
Abiogenesis and evolution are entirely different theories. Why even bring it up?
Macro-evolution is the culmination of successive micro-evolutionary events and to isolate them is to misunderstand the theory, fundamentally. Additionally, you clearly must reject evidence which you simply don't like in order to reach the stance you have. That, or you are ignorant.

That site is a subsidiary of the Discovery Institute, a malignant, anti-science "think tank" which has worked to have Creationism (yes, ID is just a fancy word for Creationism) taught in public schools.
 
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A lot of people in this discussion are misusing or not clearly defining what they mean by various terms including "creationism" and "evolution." I used to be an atheist Darwinist. The term creationist is loaded and people often use it to refer to very different beliefs.

I currently believe in intelligent design over Darwinism. To clarify, I accept micro evolution, reject macro evolution, reject abiogenesis. I believe the earth is billions of years old and that there was a Big Bang. If there was a Big Bang, I think something must have caused the Big Bang and caused the universe to be created. I think the universe had a beginning and that before it, there was "nothing." Some scientists misuse the term nothing to mean Strings or waves and say that's how something came from nothing, but I mean nothing as in the ABSENCE OF ANYTHING.

Many people who believe creationism or intelligent design have a hard time organizing their reasons because there are so few textbooks or resources explaining the reasons for supporting intelligent design.
This is a good resources defending ID and addressing many of the common attacks against intelligent design.

http://www.evolutionnews.org/backtoschoolguide.pdf
Great example of picking and choosing only the evidence to "beleive" in that doesn't make you uncomfortable. Again, creating a creator at the beginning of time doesn't answer any questions, and is done so only for your psychological benefit. And yes, the "discovery institute" is anti-intelligence and doesn't even deserve to be mentioned in this thread.
 
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This the main point, and it's difficult to deny. You can teach a flat earth believer to be a skilled seaman, but I still wouldn't trust his judgement off at sea.
It's funny to read stuff like this and the original OP. I am willing to bet that you, your family, or one of your friends ds have had to entrust their are and maybe even their life in the hands of one of those scary dumb creationist physicians. I am further willing to bet that in a matter of life and death, if your doctor introduced himself to you and said, "I am Dr so and so,I have been called to your bedside because I am the best one at this life saving surgery you are about to have, but I need to get your consenr, but before I do,know that I am a creationist" (Mind you he will be using his judgment for the next 6-7 hours that the surgery will take). Your answer? No Doc, can't trust your judgement! I rather me, or my kids die,thank you very much.

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It's funny to read stuff like this and the original OP. I am willing to bet that you, your family, or one of your friends ds have had to entrust their are and maybe even their life in the hands of one of those scary dumb creationist physicians. I am further willing to bet that in a matter of life and death, if your doctor introduced himself to you and said, "I am Dr so and so,I have been called to your bedside because I am the best one at this life saving surgery you are about to have, but I need to get your consenr, but before I do,know that I am a creationist" (Mind you he will be using his judgment for the next 6-7 hours that the surgery will take). Your answer? No Doc, can't trust your judgement! I rather me, or my kids die,thank you very much.

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Honestly if I was in a situation where I or a family member needed life saving surgery and the physician decided to start babbling about their religious beliefs on the creation of the world right after introducing themselves I'd probably want a different surgeon. Just me though.
 
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It's funny to read stuff like this and the original OP. I am willing to bet that you, your family, or one of your friends ds have had to entrust their are and maybe even their life in the hands of one of those scary dumb creationist physicians. I am further willing to bet that in a matter of life and death, if your doctor introduced himself to you and said, "I am Dr so and so,I have been called to your bedside because I am the best one at this life saving surgery you are about to have, but I need to get your consenr, but before I do,know that I am a creationist" (Mind you he will be using his judgment for the next 6-7 hours that the surgery will take). Your answer? No Doc, can't trust your judgement! I rather me, or my kids die,thank you very much.

Sent from my SGH-M919 using SDN mobile

That's missing the point completely. But assuming this is real life and many surgeons can do the procedure well, the analogy holds true. "Before we cast off, know that our captain believes the earth is flat." Could be a very successful captain, but I'll still be taking the next ship.
 
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^ this.

The amount of picking and choosing that people do is hilarious to me - people make their world fit their beliefs (and we know this, there is plenty of psych studies on it) but.. again, who created the creator? The idea of arising from nothing (to which life316 referred), but believing there is a creator, means that either there was nothing before the creator was created, or the creator has always been. So the choice is arising from nothing, or having no beginning - which are fairly equatable ideas... and I don't think you can believe in one without having the possibility of the other. It basically boils down to your argument is something had to create all that we know (the universe), but it it's wasn't created?

Now lets pose another question; do you think your beliefs are any different then a fundamentalist? By the logic that everyone here is saying that religion/beliefs shouldn't matter, we have to respect all religions/beliefs equally, and everyone is allowed to believe whatever they want. Do you think a fundamentalist's religion is going to effect the way they practice medicine? Why do you get a free pass and they don't? If you think this a huge jump and not fair, I ask you do you think the catholic church has had a negative impact on reproductive health? If you answer no, then your religion is getting in the way of your clinical judgement because it's an established fact. If you answer yes, then you have to admit that peoples faith effects them as a clinician
 
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.. again, who created the creator? The idea of arising from nothing (to which life316 referred), but believing there is a creator, means that either there was nothing before the creator was created, or the creator has always been. So the choice is arising from nothing, or having no beginning - which are fairly equatable ideas... and I don't think you can believe in one without having the possibility of the other. It basically boils down to your argument is something had to create all that we know (the universe), but it it's wasn't created?
That "who created the Creator" argument isn't really the checkmate that some think it to be. All explanations end somewhere. The philosophical materialist won't have any explanation for the existence of elementary particles.

And I don't agree with idea (that one of the posters above made), that religion claims to have all the answers. I don't think religion makes that claim at all. Religion is silent on almost everything within the domain of science, for example.

I think that theism gives the scientist even more freedom to follow the evidence. An atheist is basically forced to accept unguided Darwinian evolution as the only possible explanation. Because if the diversity of life didn't arise that way, then their whole world view is wrong. The theist accepts that God could have created the universe in a number of different ways.
 
That "who created the Creator" argument isn't really the checkmate that some think it to be. All explanations end somewhere. The philosophical materialist won't have any explanation for the existence of elementary particles.

And I don't agree with idea (that one of the posters above made), that religion claims to have all the answers. I don't think religion makes that claim at all. Religion is silent on almost everything within the domain of science, for example.

I think that theism gives the scientist even more freedom to follow the evidence. An atheist is basically forced to accept unguided Darwinian evolution as the only possible explanation. Because if the diversity of life didn't arise that way, then their whole world view is wrong. The theist accepts that God could have created the universe in a number of different ways.
A philosophical materialist would admit that we have yet to determine how and from whence the 31 elementary particles arose. There are various models in the works to help determine a potential answer to this question. Real scientists don't have to have answers for everything while so many theists -- being human -- create their own answers, very often hilariously inserting their own anthropomorphic deity as the "first cause".

Scientific thinkers : "We don't yet know."
Theists : "A wizard did it."

I'm being facetious, but that legitimately is the level of reasoning when you break it down.

Religions absolutely claim to have all the answers. They're silent on scientific matters because most of them, especially the popular ones were come up with before science existed. They attempt to answer the hard questions : Where did we come from? "Dirt man and rib woman were made in the image of God himself" How did all these amazing things get here? "God made them for us to enjoy and use" What happens after we die? "Good people that did what those in power God wanted get to go to the happy place with lots of things humans want, like gold and jewels and lots of free virgins".

If that point weren't made, I can't help you.


"Unguided Darwinism" is the only answer to the diversity of life. When I say this, I'm not being dogmatic, as I'm certain you're likely to incorrectly point out. I'm following the best evidence and when I say "only" I mean it's the best answer. By an incredible margin. The evidence for evolution, both in the direct sense and indirectly through its demonstrated capacity to unify the disciplines of biology, is astonishing. It is just as much a fact as the Earth being an oblate spheroid instead of a flat plain with four corners. You just don't think this because of your beliefs. Hilariously, you believe yourself, therefore, to be open minded, when you're really just bad at thinking.
 
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A philosophical materialist would admit that we have yet to determine how and from whence the 31 elementary particles arose. There are various models in the works to help determine a potential answer to this question. Real scientists don't have to have answers for everything while so many theists -- being human -- create their own answers, very often hilariously inserting their own anthropomorphic deity as the "first cause".

Scientific thinkers : "We don't yet know."
Theists : "A wizard did it."

I'm being facetious, but that legitimately is the level of reasoning when you break it down.

Religions absolutely claim to have all the answers. They're silent on scientific matters because most of them, especially the popular ones were come up with before science existed. They attempt to answer the hard questions : Where did we come from? "Dirt man and rib woman were made in the image of God himself" How did all these amazing things get here? "God made them for us to enjoy and use" What happens after we die? "Good people that did what those in power God wanted get to go to the happy place with lots of things humans want, like gold and jewels and lots of free virgins".

If that point weren't made, I can't help you.


"Unguided Darwinism" is the only answer to the diversity of life. When I say this, I'm not being dogmatic, as I'm certain you're likely to incorrectly point out. I'm following the best evidence and when I say "only" I mean it's the best answer. By an incredible margin. The evidence for evolution, both in the direct sense and indirectly through its demonstrated capacity to unify the disciplines of biology, is astonishing. It is just as much a fact as the Earth being an oblate spheroid instead of a flat plain with four corners. You just don't think this because of your beliefs. Hilariously, you believe yourself, therefore, to be open minded, when you're really just bad at thinking.


ALL explanations come to an end eventually. If the physicists figure out how those elementary particles arose, then it will lead to another question. That's just how it is. And having God as that final answer would not stop a religious scientist from trying to answer as many questions as possible about the origin of the universe.

Religion and science cover largely different domains. Learning how something works is vastly different than ascribing meaning to that thing. Science deals more with the former, while religion deals more with the latter. I don't know of any religions that claim to have all the answers. Which religion are you referring to? Does the Qur'an have an ayah on the histopathological differences between UC and Crohn's? Because I'm actually tryna learn that at the moment.

Say new data arises that makes it highly likely that irreducible complexity actually is a valid argument. If you're boxed-in as an atheist, then you run into some problems. Therefore, I think agnosticism is a more defensible position.
 
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ALL explanations come to an end eventually. If the physicists figure out how those elementary particles arose, then it will lead to another question. That's just how it is. And having God as that final answer would not stop a religious scientist from trying to answer as many questions as possible about the origin of the universe.
A religious scientist who believes a God as the "first cause" is not thinking scientifically. They're beginning with an answer (God did it) and finding evidence to support that and dismissing that which seems to contradict. That, or they're compartmentalizing, which is further demonstration of their failure to think scientifically and accept evidence.

Additionally, there very well may be an end after which there are no questions. I'll say it for the perhaps fifth time -- the Universe doesn't care whether or not we think it makes sense. We evolved to understand a world where things have causes, not to understand the very deepest fundamentals of the Universe. The world's religions were created in a time when people had an extraordinarily limited understanding of the Universe, so it makes sense that their apologetics are limited by that scope.


Religion and science cover largely different domains. Learning how something works is vastly different than ascribing meaning to that thing. Science deals more with the former, while religion deals more with the latter. I don't know of any religions that claim to have all the answers. Which religion are you referring to? Does the Qur'an have an ayah on the histopathological differences between UC and Crohn's? Because I'm actually tryna learn that at the moment.
Obviously religion deals with applying meaning to the world. That's one of the primary reasons it was invented in the first place, because humans have a need to exist with meaning and we apply meaning to our environment due to several cognitive biases that we evolved to possess.
Again, religion absolutely claims to have all the answers. This portion of your post is ignoring what you quoted. When Islam was created, there was no understanding of disease processes at the tissue level, so it's absolutely stupid to say something like that. They did, however, know of what we now call epilepsy, for instance. Their answer -- demon possession. If someone has some other debilitating disease or they couldn't have children, they were perhaps cursed. Religions created answers to questions that were accessible to them.

Religions also make claims about the nature of reality, as does science. I'll reiterate -- science is a much better way of knowing that is religion. The claims it makes are vetted and founded in evidence and the predictions it makes about the Universe can be substantiated. It is self-correcting and is constantly trying to "prove" itself wrong. Religion does none of these things, expect make claims, which are unsubstantiated, unreliable and founded on dogma and faith, not evidence and the rigor of the scientific method. "A wizard did it" is a bad answer, but it's essentially what religion offers.


Say new data arises that makes it highly likely that irreducible complexity actually is a valid argument. If you're boxed-in as an atheist, then you run into some problems. Therefore, I think agnosticism is a more defensible position
Say that new evidence arises that unicorns are real -- us unicorn non-believers sure would be boxed in then! What are you talking about?

Atheism is the position of not believing that god(s) exists. It is not a claim that god(s) doesn't exist. It is a negative position, where as religion is a positive position.
Theist : "I believe in God."
Atheist : "I don't believe that."

This proposal that atheists are somehow dogmatic is just an ad hominem tu quoqui.

Agnosticism is perhaps a useless designation of null belief. I'm not certain it's possible to hold a null belief about something when you look at evidence or lack thereof. I'm not entirely convinced that agnosticism by itself is a meaningful concept.
 
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^ this * a million

The idea that we are boxed in is so unbelievably ridiculous - we don't believe there is a god because there is no evidence showing there is a god. We follow evidence, data, and the scientific method. If suddenly something came about that followed the scientific process that showed there was a god, well then color me purple and i'll be a man of faith (again not religion!). The idea that we would automatically reject a result differing from our hypothesis/current working theories (and can we please, please, use the word theory correctly from now on in this thread) goes against EVERYTHING that a scientist should be. You follow the data, not with where you want it to go, but with what it actually shows.

There are roughly 4200 active religions in the world right now - and you are choosing to believe that 4199 of those are wrong and you are right, based on? Oh yeah, what your parents raised you with or something you stumbled across that fit with your world view that is common to the people around you? How arrogant one must be to think that everyone else is wrong (you don't have a choice, but definition of a monotheistic religion, your God/religion is the only real one and everyone else is worshipping false idols). Sucks for all those people that believed in norse gods, greek gods, egyptian gods, mayan gods (the people that were sacrificed must be pisssssssed). ETC ETC ETC ETC
 
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I'm not a young earth creationist, but honestly I don't understand why people feel their beliefs will affect their performance as a doctor.

As far as I understand it (and please correct me if I'm wrong), they believe some flavor of god created the world ~6,000 years ago as a fully formed place. Just like Adam was created as a grown man (and not a baby), trees had fruit, etc, the world was created ... old. None of that seems to inherently contradict science. As a matter of fact when I first heard the theory I argued that it seemed like almost an unfair belief that couldn't be attacked/challenged/disproven because of how flexible it is:

"God didn't create man - evolution etc.!"
Well, ya see, that's the "backstory" He programmed into the world. Sure, evolution exists. It's one of god's creations yadda yadda.

"The word is old, carbon dating, star light, etc.!"
Okeedokee, but it was created already old.​

It appears like the only practical difference is that they believe in a god as first cause, and really, what effect can that particular belief have on their understanding of current scientific, evidence based guidelines for patient care? The flexibility of the belief seems to allow it to incorporate any scientific discoveries into itself.
 
I'm not a young earth creationist, but honestly I don't understand why people feel their beliefs will affect their performance as a doctor.

As far as I understand it (and please correct me if I'm wrong), they believe some flavor of god created the world ~6,000 years ago as a fully formed place. Just like Adam was created as a grown man (and not a baby), trees had fruit, etc, the world was created ... old. None of that seems to inherently contradict science. As a matter of fact when I first heard the theory I argued that it seemed like almost an unfair belief that couldn't be attacked/challenged/disproven because of how flexible it is:

"God didn't create man - evolution etc.!"
Well, ya see, that's the "backstory" He programmed into the world. Sure, evolution exists. It's one of god's creations yadda yadda.

"The word is old, carbon dating, star light, etc.!"
Okeedokee, but it was created already old.​

It appears like the only practical difference is that they believe in a god as first cause, and really, what effect can that particular belief have on their understanding of current scientific, evidence based guidelines for patient care? The flexibility of the belief seems to allow it to incorporate any scientific discoveries into itself.

You mean other than the fact that one side not only believes in a "creator" but also his/her/its book of fairy tales?

And those fairy tales dictate the behavior of those who believe in it. Worst of all these fairy tales can be manipulated in any way possible. One day Christianity is for slavery. The next day it is against slavery. Sometimes homosexuality is okay other times its equivalent to murder.

Religious beliefs; especially as a source for believing in creationism; are just opinions invalidated by science.
 
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You mean other than the fact that one side not only believes in a "creator" but also his/her/its book of fairy tales?
Exactly. Why does this matter?

One day Christianity is for slavery. The next day it is against slavery. Sometimes homosexuality is okay other times its equivalent to murder.
Yes, people will find all sorts of reasons to justify the terrible things they'd like to do. This is not and never has been limited to religion or religious individuals. I believe the United States fought a civil war in the not too distant past that had something to do with slavery? How long ago did psychiatrists remove homosexuality from the DSM? When did LGBT individuals finally get the right to marry? Are we done fighting for their equal rights?

The fact that religious beliefs evolved and changed for the better should be a good thing. It's one of the attributes we praise most in science. We make mistakes, but can learn from them and are open to changing our understanding. Science used to tell us that women were intellectually inferior to men and learning would damage their reproductive organs. This idea was used to manipulate and subjugate women for quite some time. Medicine itself is replete with examples of beliefs that have been discarded: blood letting etc.

Again, I don't see how believing a god created the world will affect their ability to be physicians.
Religious beliefs; especially as a source for believing in creationism; are just opinions invalidated by science.
Like I said, I'm not a young earth creationist, but if you have scientific evidence that invalidates the existence of god and proves he didn't create the world I'd love to see it. (Of course, their side hasn't brought any evidence that proves god does exist. But you made a bold claim there.)
 
Exactly. Why does this matter?


Yes, people will find all sorts of reasons to justify the terrible things they'd like to do. This is not and never has been limited to religion or religious individuals. I believe the United States fought a civil war in the not too distant past that had something to do with slavery? How long ago did psychiatrists remove homosexuality from the DSM? When did LGBT individuals finally get the right to marry? Are we done fighting for their equal rights?

The fact that religious beliefs evolved and changed for the better should be a good thing. It's one of the attributes we praise most in science. We make mistakes, but can learn from them and are open to changing our understanding. Science used to tell us that women were intellectually inferior to men and learning would damage their reproductive organs. This idea was used to manipulate and subjugate women for quite some time. Medicine itself is replete with examples of beliefs that have been discarded: blood letting etc.

Again, I don't see how believing a god created the world will affect their ability to be physicians.

Like I said, I'm not a young earth creationist, but if you have scientific evidence that invalidates the existence of god and proves he didn't create the world I'd love to see it. (Of course, their side hasn't brought any evidence that proves god does exist. But you made a bold claim there.)

I love the last argument, well to counter, you can't disprove that a flying spaghetti monster didn't create the world either. Or that George Bush wasn't behind 9/11. Or that Ted Cruz isn't the Zodiac Killer. Ad nauseum.
 
As far as I understand it (and please correct me if I'm wrong), they believe some flavor of god created the world ~6,000 years ago as a fully formed place. Just like Adam was created as a grown man (and not a baby), trees had fruit, etc, the world was created ... old. None of that seems to inherently contradict science.

lmao
 
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I love the last argument, well to counter, you can't disprove that a flying spaghetti monster didn't create the world either. Or that George Bush wasn't behind 9/11. Or that Ted Cruz isn't the Zodiac Killer. Ad nauseum.
Correct. I agreed they have no proof. But if you noticed, the person I was responding to claimed that believing in creationism was invalidated by science. I would like to see that invalidation, since, to the best of my knowledge, there is no way to prove that a god exists or doesn't.
LOL yeah I guess my phrasing could've been a little better there. But I hope you understand what I meant. Aside from the obvious "disagreement" about the first cause of the universe, the argument that god created the world doesn't necessarily contradict science. It basically just says "Whatever science discovers IS how god created the world."
 
@#Lucky what you're describing sounds like Catholicism, the mindset of "Yes science is great, whatever you guys find, God did that!" this is not the attitude of young earth creationists. When you have a literalist interpretation of your holy book, your worldview is very much at odds with nature and science.
 
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@#Lucky what you're describing sounds like Catholicism, the mindset of "Yes science is great, whatever you guys find, God did that!" this is not the attitude of young earth creationists. When you have a literalist interpretation of your holy book, your worldview is very much at odds with nature and science.
And just sticking your deity into the explanation is still unscientific and ridiculous.
 
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A doctor once told me that, "A few months ago my daughter kept singing [song from a Christian kids show called Veggie Tales]. At first we were getting annoyed by it, but then we realized it was God telling us to [buy a house near an orphanage in Guatemala]." She was 100% serious. This greatly decreased my estimation of her intelligence, but didn't negate her skill as a clinician.

I grew up being taught young earth creationism, the earth is 5,000 years old, evolution is a lie, Bible is the only source of truth, etc. I believed this up until I took biology courses at my conservative Christian university. Ironically their attempts to discredit evolution led to me recognizing it as true. This wasn't an easy process, nor painless. It involved long conversations with patient evolutionist friends.

Currently I'm of the opinion that it's useless to discuss it with people unless they are interested in seeking better understanding of it. I'll spend all day explaining and discussing it with those people. But going out of my way to argue with religious people? Ain't nobody got time for that. They have powerful emotional reasons preventing them from agreeing with you. That's the underlying problem, not a lack of clear explanations or missing evidence. They'll need to work through that on their own.
 
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A doctor once told me that, "A few months ago my daughter kept singing [song from a Christian kids show called Veggie Tales]. At first we were getting annoyed by it, but then we realized it was God telling us to [buy a house near an orphanage in Guatemala]." She was 100% serious. This greatly decreased my estimation of her intelligence, but didn't negate her skill as a clinician.

I grew up being taught young earth creationism, the earth is 5,000 years old, evolution is a lie, Bible is the only source of truth, etc. I believed this up until I took biology courses at my conservative Christian university. Ironically their attempts to discredit evolution led to me recognizing it as true. This wasn't an easy process, nor painless. It involved long conversations with patient evolutionist friends.

Currently I'm of the opinion that it's useless to discuss it with people unless they are interested in seeking better understanding of it. I'll spend all day explaining and discussing it with those people. But going out of my way to argue with religious people? Ain't nobody got time for that. They have powerful emotional reasons preventing them from agreeing with you. That's the underlying problem, not a lack of clear explanations or missing evidence. They'll need to work through that on their own.

I grew up the same way, and I agree that fundamentally this is an issue of a priori beliefs that simply won't accommodate some truths about the natural world that science has revealed to us. But it doesn't mean that people who believe the fairy tales are stupid.

Roboto did you maintain your theism sans creationism or did you leave the fold?
 
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@J Senpai
You're a degenerate heathen after my own heart
200w.gif
 
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I grew up the same way, and I agree that fundamentally this is an issue of a priori beliefs that simply won't accommodate some truths about the natural world that science has revealed to us. But it doesn't mean that people who believe the fairy tales are stupid.

Roboto did you maintain your theism sans creationism or did you leave the fold?

I stayed religious for about 18 months, but then for other reasons became agnostic.
 
A cool video I saw today.

 
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@J Senpai I applaud you, but this argument always tends to be one that requires a lot of effort with nothing to show for it.

As an aside...

cheat-sheet.jpg


Bingo!




PC edit: Creationists in this thread, no offense intended by the above picture.
 
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@J Senpai I applaud you, but this argument always tends to be one that requires a lot of effort with nothing to show for it.

As an aside...

cheat-sheet.jpg


Bingo!




PC edit: Creationists in this thread, no offense intended by the above picture.
:laugh:

I love this thread.
 
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Pretty much everyone gets along in my medical school, regardless of their beliefs.

A couple people who nobody likes include either the uber-religious/conservative jerks that childishly insult people, or the uber-atheist/neckbeard jerks that childishly insult people.

OP seems to fall into the second category.
 
To the people who are trying to shut down the creationist critics, because "you can still be a creationist and be a good physician" and "you need to let people believe what they want and leave them alone": Ideas, particularly religious ideas, influence if not motivate behavior. That's why everybody moving past each other guarding their little ideas and theories and not letting their worldviews collide is not ideal. It creates breeding grounds for unrealistic ideas about reality. These ideas then influence behavior and perception. A friend of mine works in hospice in the south, and she has told me that multiple oncologists and palliative care docs will continue pointless aggressive treatment because they don't think the patient will go to heaven. I don't have any reason to doubt her story. Where we're from Baptist churches are more common than Starbucks. While I don't believe we need to start an inquisition and aggressively root out fundamentalists and behave like Aholes in the process. I don't think it's aggressive to check an irrational idea. That seems more ethical than burying my head in the sand and not engaging.
 
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Really? That is a terrible analogy that doesn't even apply. If you + ball and - ball destroyed each other when they interacted, you would indeed have 0 balls. Annihilation is kinda important to bring up your are taking to talk about sum energy in the Universe.
shots fired
 
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To the people who are trying to shut down the creationist critics, because "you can still be a creationist and be a good physician" and "you need to let people believe what they want and leave them alone": Ideas, particularly religious ideas, influence if not motivate behavior. That's why everybody moving past each other guarding their little ideas and theories and not letting their worldviews collide is not ideal. It creates breeding grounds for unrealistic ideas about reality. These ideas then influence behavior and perception. A friend of mine works in hospice in the south, and she has told me that multiple oncologists and palliative care docs will continue pointless aggressive treatment because they don't think the patient will go to heaven. I don't have any reason to doubt her story. Where we're from Baptist churches are more common than Starbucks. While I don't believe we need to start an inquisition and aggressively root out fundamentalists and behave like Aholes in the process. I don't think it's aggressive to check an irrational idea. That seems more ethical than burying my head in the sand and not engaging.

Physicians have a code of ethics that have to be followed regardless of moral belief. If they're not consistently looking out for the patient's best interest and letting the patient make decisions (in this case, about their advance directives), then someone would have probably reported them to their licensing boards by now. I think the situation you're describing here is probably a mutual agreement, and might be the result of the culture of that particular town.

To address your point, I'm pretty sure it's illegal to ask about religious beliefs during an interview, if that's what you mean.
 
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