COVID Pandemic Exposes the Ugly Secrets Hidden in America’s Healthcare System

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How can you expect a study when the virus itself is only 6 months old. It has been documented way back in 2004 that HCQ can fight off viruses, can function as zinc ionophore and Zinc’s capability to stop virus multiplication. Nothing is new. There is a lot of proof available on the internet and YouTube from the physicians who actually used the cocktail, on the efficacy of HCQ+Zinc against Covid if administered early. You have to have a unbiased , open mind.

you ask yourself, if the fear mongering of HCQ is justified and truthful. Then you will have the answer .

You say yourself that studies are not possible given the relatively short nature of this pandemic... yet are touting doctors youtube who you believe have already solved this issue?

Anecdote + anecdote Evidence

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True... yet I cannot fathom someone thinking that waste management, firefighters, public education are somehow not essential services

Meanwhile, libertarians can have fun driving on roads that others helped pay for, going to sports arenas that are partially tax funded, having firefighter save them and their families even though they likely haven’t paid enough taxes to cash in that chip, sending their kids to public schools and colleges which are, in part, supported by people without kids, (or just a less number than theirs), going to any national park, museum etc, use the internet, use any of the multitude of medications that came from government funded research, and the many many other things that tax funded enterprises have generated.... but once we get their families on a vent, then that is when they will truly realise how libertarian they are and swear they will be OK with docs killing their kids since they can’t pay. :rolleyes:
I think it’s cuz we already paid for it and may as well use it. Sorta of like how a few years ago our school bought us combank. We paid for it will our tuition, didn’t have a choice, would not have spent our money on it otherwise, but at least did the omm questions from it since it was already paid for by us.
 
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True... yet I cannot fathom someone thinking that waste management, firefighters, public education are somehow not essential services

Meanwhile, libertarians can have fun driving on roads that others helped pay for, going to sports arenas that are partially tax funded, having firefighter save them and their families even though they likely haven’t paid enough taxes to cash in that chip, sending their kids to public schools and colleges which are, in part, supported by people without kids, (or just a less number than theirs), going to any national park, museum etc, use the internet, use any of the multitude of medications that came from government funded research, and the many many other things that tax funded enterprises have generated.... but once we get their families on a vent, then that is when they will truly realise how libertarian they are and swear they will be OK with docs killing their kids since they can’t pay. :rolleyes:
Strawmen, I just told you I would like the govt out of all those things and so would most libertarians
 
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And thats the fundamental difference.. I say we should and when we don’t I am OK with my $ being taken to help them.
Its going to get taken regardless, so may as well help those who actually need it, rather than corporations.
Money has no inherent value, life does
 
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We can’t have freedom and government control and handouts for everything. We still should be able to pick and choose who we help.
Unless the government decides to take a “for each handout given to said person a freedom must be taken away”
Im just plain not going to agree with the notion of paying taxes to support those unwilling to do their part. If you do. That is OK, but dig deeper into your own pockets and not into others
I think you're reading too much into a fairly straightforward statement
 
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We can’t have freedom and government control and handouts for everything. We still should be able to pick and choose who we help.
Unless the government decides to take a “for each handout given to said person a freedom must be taken away”
Im just plain not going to agree with the notion of paying taxes to support those unwilling to do their part. If you do. That is OK, but dig deeper into your own pockets and not into others
How tangential of you
 
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It wouldn’t change my opinion of this person but I’m really interested in lovealls political orientation. I though he/she was far left wing until this statement. Now I’m leaning more toward hippie!
Don’t scratch your head. I do not have any political orientation but Bernie is the politician I respect the most. I like Ron Paul, Kasich, Al Gore, Tulsi Hubbard, Warren. I have my own opinion on everything, I don’t blindly follow anyone. I do not support anyone who is corrupt, no matter which party he belongs to or which position he occupies. I am for social safety net for all but only limited free stuff for those who truly need it. Free stuff and welfare has to used as medicine, minimum possible amount for a minimum period. Education has to be free up to undergraduate in public universities, private university tuition has to be regulated. The government has to take over the healthcare, natural resources, retail banking etc. In other words, no individual should benefit from natural resources and tax payer funded endeavors. There has to be clear line between private and public. I support Trump’s stand on using HCQ+zinc+antibiotic cocktail immediately after the onset of symptoms to save lives. I fully support Trump on his tough stand against illegal immigration and TPP. We have to revoke citizenship by birth, both parents should have legal status for the child to get citizenship. I do not support tax cuts. The tax has to go up for everyone to the levels we had in 1980. We have to pluck all loopholes. Corporations and Rich pay way less tax.
 
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You say yourself that studies are not possible given the relatively short nature of this pandemic... yet are touting doctors youtube who you believe have already solved this issue?

Anecdote + anecdote Evidence
I do not care about the terms, anecdotal, suggestive , unproven etc. Those terms are for those who suck up to drug companies for kickbacks who stand to gain billions in revenue. There are a lot of people who have used the HCQ+Zin+antibiotic cocktail successfully to treat Covid 19 patients by administering the cocktail early. They don’t gain anything by lying about this, there is enough evidence to know how it works too. So I trust them. What they say is proof enough for me, they are not suggestive or anecdotal. HCQ has been proved to be safe for 7 decades, I do not find anything negative about them being published BEFORE Covid. Even WHO suggests they did not find any adverse events or heart attacks after examining hundreds of millions of cases. This is NEFORE Covid. HCQ has only one serious side effect, that is, it could affect your eye sight if you continually take it for 10 or more years, not 5 or 6 days. All those *****s who fear monger about HCQ causing heart attacks or killing patients after taking it just for 6 days, ironically not calling for banning it for people who take it for 10, 20, 30 years. Go figure !!
 
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Strawmen, I just told you I would like the govt out of all those things and so would most libertarians

Since I think government should not be involved in healthcare, I will not avail myself of life saving measures unless I can fully pay for it.

Since current behaviours predict future ones, heres a list of all the services that you do not fully pay for, yet use.

It would be strawman if you were NOT using those services and then saying you would also not use unpaid for healthcare.
 
Don’t scratch your head. I do not have any political orientation but Bernie is the politician I respect the most. I like Ron Paul, Kasich, Al Gore, Tulsi Hubbard, Warren. I have my own opinion on everything, I don’t blindly follow anyone. I do not support anyone who is corrupt, no matter which party he belongs to or which position he occupies. I am for social safety net for all but only limited free stuff for those who truly need it. Free stuff and welfare has to used as medicine, minimum possible amount for a minimum period. Education has to be free up to undergraduate in public universities, private university tuition has to be regulated. The government has to take over the healthcare, natural resources, retail banking etc. In other words, no individual should benefit from natural resources and tax payer funded endeavors. There has to be clear line between private and public. I support Trump’s stand on using HCQ+zinc+antibiotic cocktail immediately after the onset of symptoms to save lives. I fully support Trump on his tough stand against illegal immigration and TPP. We have to revoke citizenship by birth, both parents should have legal status for the child to get citizenship. I do not support tax cuts. The tax has to go up for everyone to the levels we had in 1980. We have to pluck all loopholes. Corporations and Rich pay way less tax.
BTW, I am not a freeloader. Our household income is above 350k.
 
I do not care about the terms, anecdotal, suggestive , unproven etc. Those terms are for those who suck up to drug companies for kickbacks who stand to gain billions in revenue.

There are a lot of people who have used the HCQ+Zin+antibiotic cocktail successfully to treat Covid 19 patients by administering the cocktail early.
They don’t gain anything by lying about this, there is enough evidence to know how it works too. So I trust them.

What they say is proof enough for me, they are not suggestive or anecdotal.

HCQ has been proved to be safe for 7 decades, I do not find anything negative about them being published BEFORE Covid. Even WHO suggests they did not find any adverse events or heart attacks after examining hundreds of millions of cases. This is NEFORE Covid. HCQ has only one serious side effect, that is, it could affect your eye sight if you continually take it for 10 or more years, not 5 or 6 days. All those *****s who fear monger about HCQ causing heart attacks or killing patients after taking it just for 6 days, ironically not calling for banning it for people who take it for 10, 20, 30 years. Go figure !!

First of all, paragraphs are your friend.

Secondly, I guess there’s no possible way that the physiology of an acutely ill person is different than one who is chronically ill.
Let’s give all our acute CHF exacerbation pts, 3 L of NS (or LR if you’re a surgeon :)!!), ‘cos they are drinking fluids when they are in steady state at home.

What’s “a lot of people”... and did they have some criteria by which they figured out who to include or exclude?
So “lots of people” merely saying it, is proof enough for you? Guess you can keep giving renally dosed dopamine, keep INRs < 2 prior to a paracentesis, check for urine eosinophils in suspected AIN, etc etc etc.

Lastly, its arrhythmias, not MIs per se.

I am not saying for sure that it doesn’t work (although the Lancet study not only points towards not working, but goes into “causes harm” territory), but I am saying that until more solid evidence comes in, no one can claim that it works and hence should not be Rx’ing it to anyone outside of clinical trials or hail Marys.
 
Since I think government should not be involved in healthcare, I will not avail myself of life saving measures unless I can fully pay for it.

Since current behaviours predict future ones, heres a list of all the services that you do not fully pay for, yet use.

It would be strawman if you were NOT using those services and then saying you would also not use unpaid for healthcare.
I am having trouble discerning your argument here
 
First of all, paragraphs are your friend.

Secondly, I guess there’s no possible way that the physiology of an acutely ill person is different than one who is chronically ill.
Let’s give all our acute CHF exacerbation pts, 3 L of NS (or LR if you’re a surgeon :)!!), ‘cos they are drinking fluids when they are in steady state at home.

What’s “a lot of people”... and did they have some criteria by which they figured out who to include or exclude?
So “lots of people” merely saying it, is proof enough for you? Guess you can keep giving renally dosed dopamine, keep INRs < 2 prior to a paracentesis, check for urine eosinophils in suspected AIN, etc etc etc.

Lastly, its arrhythmias, not MIs per se.

I am not saying for sure that it doesn’t work (although the Lancet study not only points towards not working, but goes into “causes harm” territory), but I am saying that until more solid evidence comes in, no one can claim that it works and hence should not be Rx’ing it to anyone outside of clinical trials or hail Marys.

“A lot of people “ ... they are all physicians treating patients on the field. The only difference is that they are desperate to help people and save lives. They are not blindly doing it, there is reason behind it. Zinc stops virus multiplication, HCQ opens gates for Zinc to enter the cells. Antibiotics clears residual infection if there is any.

Regarding arrhythmias, only around 44000 Americans have QT prolongation. That is just 0.01% of the population. It is hereditary condition and most of them are aware of it and probably on medication. Even for them, the risks reduces by 50% if you substitute AZM with another antibiotic. Even if the QT interval increased to more than 500, still there is no surety that it will cause heart attack. There was a FDA study before Covid on QT prolongation of HCQ, they concluded that the QT increase is very minimal. But all of a sudden, in all official HCQ trials, it is causing heart attacks within 6 days of use and more patients die than who don’t use it. WTF ? But no fear mongerIng experts talk about this, they want to block the use of HCQ for the remaining 99.99% of the population. But they are blocking only for Covid treatment for 6 days , not for prolonged use. WTF they are thinking? Are we all fools?

There are than 100 drugs that cause QT prolongation similar to HCQ. Why no one talks about them?

Why no one talks about any side effects of Remdesivir ? It causes liver damage for ALL patients .How come it becomes a standard care for Covid even before the trial is concluded?
 
Don’t scratch your head. I do not have any political orientation but Bernie is the politician I respect the most. I like Ron Paul, Kasich, Al Gore, Tulsi Hubbard, Warren. I have my own opinion on everything, I don’t blindly follow anyone. I do not support anyone who is corrupt, no matter which party he belongs to or which position he occupies. I am for social safety net for all but only limited free stuff for those who truly need it. Free stuff and welfare has to used as medicine, minimum possible amount for a minimum period. Education has to be free up to undergraduate in public universities, private university tuition has to be regulated. The government has to take over the healthcare, natural resources, retail banking etc. In other words, no individual should benefit from natural resources and tax payer funded endeavors. There has to be clear line between private and public. I support Trump’s stand on using HCQ+zinc+antibiotic cocktail immediately after the onset of symptoms to save lives. I fully support Trump on his tough stand against illegal immigration and TPP. We have to revoke citizenship by birth, both parents should have legal status for the child to get citizenship. I do not support tax cuts. The tax has to go up for everyone to the levels we had in 1980. We have to pluck all loopholes. Corporations and Rich pay way less tax.
Well at least you aren’t politically affirmed. I do believe you read a lot of conspiracy theory websites though. And you probably aren’t a doctor by the way you discuss physiology below. Assuming you pounded through a few soccer mom homeopathy google articles. And you may want to spend some of that 350k a year salary purchasing logical information sources. I think everyone would agree on getting rid of corruption but I don’t think any of your solutions would correct that. Except maybe the tax loophole fixing but even that is very complex. Never thought I would hear someone say they support Bernie and Ron Paul. Super serial. I will say though China regulates its banks pretty harshly and often it does not help.
 
Well at least you aren’t politically affirmed. I do believe you read a lot of conspiracy theory websites though. And you probably aren’t a doctor by the way you discuss physiology below. Assuming you pounded through a few soccer mom homeopathy google articles. And you may want to spend some of that 350k a year salary purchasing logical information sources. I think everyone would agree on getting rid of corruption but I don’t think any of your solutions would correct that. Except maybe the tax loophole fixing but even that is very complex. Never thought I would hear someone say they support Bernie and Ron Paul. Super serial. I will say though China regulates its banks pretty harshly and often it does not help.
Bernie and Ron Paul are diagonally opposite in beliefs and policies but BOTH ARE HONEST. I do not agree with Ron’s ideas but I respect him because he is honest. Same goes to Kasich.
 
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This is another garbage just like the VA study. As a doctor, you know that it is important to treat the virus in the early stages rather than after it affected the organs and the patient is hospitalized. Throughout the world, doctors use this cocktail early but the stupid idiots in USA are being obtuse to use only one or two components of the cocktail just before the patients about to die. Why? One idiot even said he gave HCQ to four patients after they were put on the ventilator and it did not help them recover. Really? Why not give it after they are dead, you genius? Is he really a doctor? 90% of the patients who are put on the ventilator die. Is it the fault of the ventilator? What are the health conditions of the patients in the control group compared to who took HCQ? What were the preexisting risks in different groups? Why Zinc was
not given? What are the doses used?

Here is an informed review of the garbage VA study from one of your own.
 
Well at least you aren’t politically affirmed. I do believe you read a lot of conspiracy theory websites though. And you probably aren’t a doctor by the way you discuss physiology below. Assuming you pounded through a few soccer mom homeopathy google articles. And you may want to spend some of that 350k a year salary purchasing logical information sources. I think everyone would agree on getting rid of corruption but I don’t think any of your solutions would correct that. Except maybe the tax loophole fixing but even that is very complex. Never thought I would hear someone say they support Bernie and Ron Paul. Super serial. I will say though China regulates its banks pretty harshly and often it does not help.
Tell me some of those logical HONEST information sources, I am searching for them most of my life. Everyone seems to have an agenda , heavily influenced by political inclinations or sucking up to corporations and influential people to fill up their deep packets. Honesty is a long lost commodity.
 
This is another garbage just like the VA study. As a doctor, you know that it is important to treat the virus in the early stages rather than after it affected the organs and the patient is hospitalized. Throughout the world, doctors use this cocktail early but the stupid idiots in USA are being obtuse to use only one or two components of the cocktail just before the patients about to die. Why? One idiot even said he gave HCQ to four patients after they were put on the ventilator and it did not help them recover. Really? Why not give it after they are dead, you genius? Is he really a doctor? 90% of the patients who are put on the ventilator die. Is it the fault of the ventilator? What are the health conditions of the patients in the control group compared to who took HCQ? What were the preexisting risks in different groups? Why Zinc was
not given? What are the doses used?

Here is an informed review of the garbage VA study from one of your own.

You really have no clue, do you?
 
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Tell me some of those logical HONEST information sources, I am searching for them most of my life. Everyone seems to have an agenda , heavily influenced by political inclinations or sucking up to corporations and influential people to fill up their deep packets. Honesty is a long lost commodity.

when it comes to medicine pubmed is a good place to start
 
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I don't get my medical knowledge from YouTube videos.

Find me a journal article.
You are not going to see any realistic /unbiased article on HCQ+zinc+antibiotic in any journal, because it is too inexpensive. No one is going to make billions, so no kickbacks for the writers or the journal. Unfortunately that’s how the situation is. I am pretty sure that you know what the YouTube video is going to say, that’s hiding behind journals.
 
You are not going to see any realistic /unbiased article on HCQ+zinc+antibiotic in any journal, because it is too inexpensive. No one is going to make billions, so no kickbacks for the writers or the journal. Unfortunately that’s how the situation is. I am pretty sure that you know what the YouTube video is going to say, that’s hiding behind journals.
That's not even close to true
 
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Is it really that common choosing between food and meds? I hear it all the time, I’m sure it exists but it seems to pan out more to the effect of non compliance and choosing between cigs and meds than food and meds. At least for the run of the mill stuff like HTN dm etc most of the meds are not expensive. But where do we draw the line between personal responsibilities and govt handouts? Funding generic only midlevel mostly basic care? Maybe..... But subsidizing obesity, lack of willpower, non compliance, and healthcare abuse due to patients not having skin the game? That will never have my vote.

the former I may say yes to not because I feel bad for ole Betty not being able to afford her 4 dollar meds, but to save the govt money and allow us to not pay more taxes when Betty gets admitted for high blood sugar cuz her pack of smokes was > her meds.

Yes it’s common.
Most Americans don’t have $400 saved up for an emergency, let alone to pay a lot for medication or work up in the ED for example. If one loses their job (hello pandemic) and their employer-based health insurance cobra can be hundreds of dollars per month. Medical debt is one of the top reasons people file for bankruptcy. I’m not sure what specialty you’re in but on a weekly basis people’s meds I prescribe could cost them hundreds of dollars. I have to fight with insurance companies or try to find alternatives. In the end people certainly have to ration meds in order to make them last because they don’t have money to pay for them even though they are working.

I’m sure you could google and find tons of articles and data about the insane expense of medical care in this country.

Did you miss the debacle about the hike in price for epipens? They are certainly life saving and their price was increased for no clinical reason making it out of reach for many many people.

 
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Yes it’s common.
Most Americans don’t have $400 saved up for an emergency, let alone to pay a lot for medication or work up in the ED for example. If one loses their job (hello pandemic) and their employer-based health insurance cobra can be hundreds of dollars per month. Medical debt is one of the top reasons people file for bankruptcy. I’m not sure what specialty you’re in but on a weekly basis people’s meds I prescribe could cost them hundreds of dollars. I have to fight with insurance companies or try to find alternatives. In the end people certainly have to ration meds in order to make them last because they don’t have money to pay for them even though they are working.

I’m sure you could google and find tons of articles and data about the insane expense of medical care in this country.

Did you miss the debacle about the hike in price for epipens? They are certainly life saving and their price was increased for no clinical reason making it out of reach for many many people.

I think you might be overstating the number of people who needs basic meds and are skipping food for them while also making good financial decisions otherwise.

I can’t explain how many patients I see ask for med assist but they buy 2packs a day of cigarettes or roll in with starbucks. or they want tresiba because they don’t want to deal with 70/30 or they just HAVE to have the lyrica instead of gabapentin.

And epipens shouldn’t be that much and neither should albuterol but govt let it get that way by interfering. Walmart could produce generics tomorrow if govt would let them and insurance companies would flock to it because of the savings
 
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Yes it’s common.
Most Americans don’t have $400 saved up for an emergency, let alone to pay a lot for medication or work up in the ED for example. If one loses their job (hello pandemic) and their employer-based health insurance cobra can be hundreds of dollars per month. Medical debt is one of the top reasons people file for bankruptcy. I’m not sure what specialty you’re in but on a weekly basis people’s meds I prescribe could cost them hundreds of dollars. I have to fight with insurance companies or try to find alternatives. In the end people certainly have to ration meds in order to make them last because they don’t have money to pay for them even though they are working.

I’m sure you could google and find tons of articles and data about the insane expense of medical care in this country.

Did you miss the debacle about the hike in price for epipens? They are certainly life saving and their price was increased for no clinical reason making it out of reach for many many people.


I am familiar with all of the above debacles. I will follow up with the notion that responsible tax paying citizens should not be forced to subsidize Said Americans, who in general, are exceedingly poor at handling their finances and do not have adequate reserves in order to weather the storm. the lack of $400 dollars in the bank is not due to corporate greed but due to lack of personaland fiscal responsibility. I can’t tell you how many patients have nicer phones, clothes, jewelry, smoke the good cigs (I don’t smoke) etc then I do but when you see what type of insurance they have it’s medicaid with five kids attached. Sorry no empathy here.
 
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I am familiar with all of the above debacles. I will follow up with the notion that responsible tax paying citizens should not be forced to subsidize Said Americans, who in general, are exceedingly poor at handling their finances and do not have adequate reserves in order to weather the storm. the lack of $400 dollars in the bank is not due to corporate greed but due to lack of personaland fiscal responsibility. I can’t tell you how many patients have nicer phones, clothes, jewelry, smoke the good cigs (I don’t smoke) etc then I do but when you see what type of insurance they have it’s medicaid with five kids attached. Sorry no empathy here.

What kind of doctor are you?
I feel sorrry for your patients.
Bias in care is real.


Anyway there’s no reason that an epipen which can be life saving needs to be hundreds of dollars other than greed. But sure let’s blame the working poor for living in a country in which minimum wage hasn’t changed significantly or caught up with inflation for not being able to afford doctor visits and medication. I would love to see your fiscal responsibility and saving tons of money while make $7.25 an hour. I’d love to see your budget with that salary. Why is it so hard to believe that patients literally can’t afford medical care as your first post asked about? Yes, many people can’t afford the care they need, it’s real. So I guess the working poor also shouldn’t receive a public education, military protection, access to roads, etc.
 
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What kind of doctor are you?
I feel sorrry for your patients.
Bias in care is real.


Anyway there’s no reason that an epipen which can be life saving needs to be hundreds of dollars other than greed. But sure let’s blame the working poor for living in a country in which minimum wage hasn’t changed significantly or caught up with inflation for not being able to afford doctor visits and medication. I would love to see your fiscal responsibility and saving tons of money while make $7.25 an hour. I’d love to see your budget with that salary. Why is it so hard to believe that patients literally can’t afford medical care as your first post asked about? Yes, many people can’t afford the care they need, it’s real. So I guess the working poor also shouldn’t receive a public education, military protection, access to roads, etc.
I’m an IM resident. Why does type of doctor matter? Sb pointed out the problem above with epipens. If you only make 7.25 an hour it’s time to garner some skills that increase your pay no? I think we have different viewpoints on what is/ isn’t proper government intervention. I am and always will be against socialized healthcare unless someone 1. Holds people who abuse the system accountable 2. Allows a parallel private system.

Not everyone is going to be able to afford the best healthcare. That’s just how it is just as not everyone can buy a Lexus. And yes, most patients are where they are due to poor life choices.
I think those who can afford better education and better roads should able to purchase/buy their own on top of what the government provides. Those are adequate government functions.
If you feel sorry for ole Betty and her 2 packs of smokes not being to afford her meds then give her some cash. Stop trying to reach into other people’s pockets.
 
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What kind of doctor are you?
I feel sorrry for your patients.
Bias in care is real.

Believing in personal responsibility and ability to provide care are not mutually exclusive. I already know where this is headed when the word “bias” is random thrown into the mix. Contrary to popular belief you can be a doctor without being far left wing at the same time. Gasp
 
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I do not care about the terms, anecdotal, suggestive , unproven etc. Those terms are for those who suck up to drug companies for kickbacks who stand to gain billions in revenue. There are a lot of people who have used the HCQ+Zin+antibiotic cocktail successfully to treat Covid 19 patients by administering the cocktail early. They don’t gain anything by lying about this, there is enough evidence to know how it works too. So I trust them. What they say is proof enough for me, they are not suggestive or anecdotal. HCQ has been proved to be safe for 7 decades, I do not find anything negative about them being published BEFORE Covid. Even WHO suggests they did not find any adverse events or heart attacks after examining hundreds of millions of cases. This is NEFORE Covid. HCQ has only one serious side effect, that is, it could affect your eye sight if you continually take it for 10 or more years, not 5 or 6 days. All those *****s who fear monger about HCQ causing heart attacks or killing patients after taking it just for 6 days, ironically not calling for banning it for people who take it for 10, 20, 30 years. Go figure !!

Have you used HCQ in your practice before covid19 regularly? I have- for 15 years.

It’s not the most dangerous drug in the world - but there are several other serious possible side effects and it’s not totally benign. Most commonly terrible stomach upset In probably 1:20 people. More serious - life threatening (but rare) s/e related to cardiac or hypersensitivity reactions.

I woulnt take it myself because there is no good evidence either way.
 
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Have you used HCQ in your practice before covid19 regularly? I have- for 15 years.

It’s not the most dangerous drug in the world - but there are several other serious possible side effects and it’s not totally benign. Most commonly terrible stomach upset In probably 1:20 people. More serious - life threatening (but rare) s/e related to cardiac or hypersensitivity reactions.

I woulnt take it myself because there is no good evidence either way.
Yes sir, I am not a doctor but not a complete idiot either. But the doctors who have prescribed HCQ for 42, 47 years testify that none of their patients had any serious side effects or heart issues. What is your response? Are they liars? WHO says that they did not find any evidence of patients having adverse events after examining hundreds of millions of HCQ prescriptions. Are they lying? How many of your patients had heart issues because of HCQ? If not many, why don’t you follow what you are doing now before prescribing HCQ before prescribing to Covid patients instead of blocking it completely.

I just have a few questions for you.

1.Have you ever prescribed any medicine to any of your patients THAT ARE NOT COMPLETELY BENIGN?

2.Is the terrible stomach upset worse than a possible death

3. you are saying that HCQ is causing rare life threatening cardiac events. Why don’t you quantify? What is the percentage of people it affects? What is the preexisting condition that enable it? Is there a way to identify and isolate them from prescribing HCQ instead of blocking for everyone stupidly ?

4. you are saying that there is no good evidence that HCQ helps with Covid. What is your response to those doctors who claim that it has helped thousands if administered early? Are they liars?

5. do you believe that Zinc can stop or slow down virus replication ? Do you believe that HCQ is a zinc ionophore? Do you believe that an antibiotic will help clearing residual infection. If your answer is YES, why don’t you believe that the cocktail might help if administered early? If your answer is NO, then I am a better qualified doctor than you.

Thank you sir. Please answer my questions directly. No sidestepping !!!
 
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Have you used HCQ in your practice before covid19 regularly? I have- for 15 years.

It’s not the most dangerous drug in the world - but there are several other serious possible side effects and it’s not totally benign. Most commonly terrible stomach upset In probably 1:20 people. More serious - life threatening (but rare) s/e related to cardiac or hypersensitivity reactions.

I woulnt take it myself because there is no good evidence either way.
Just one more question. IF HCQ IS SUCH A DANGEROUS MEDICINE TO PRESCRIBE FOR 5 or 6 DAYS, WHY ARE YOU PEOPLE PRESCRIBE IT FOR 10, 20, 30 YEARS? I do not understand the logic. Seriously!!! Aren’t you guys supposed to take it off of the shelves all together ? Please educate me.
 
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Just one more question. IF HCQ IS SUCH A DANGEROUS MEDICINE TO PRESCRIBE FOR 5 or 6 DAYS, WHY ARE YOU PEOPLE PRESCRIBE IT FOR 10, 20, 30 YEARS? I do not understand the logic. Seriously!!! Aren’t you guys supposed to take it off of the shelves all together ? Please educate me.
There is a risk/reward equation. You don't get to write something down in the reward column unless there is good evidence for it to be there. There is absolutely a bunch of evidence in the risk column. So you would only Rx HCQ for something with a proven use (this isn't it)
 
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Just one more question. IF HCQ IS SUCH A DANGEROUS MEDICINE TO PRESCRIBE FOR 5 or 6 DAYS, WHY ARE YOU PEOPLE PRESCRIBE IT FOR 10, 20, 30 YEARS? I do not understand the logic. Seriously!!! Aren’t you guys supposed to take it off of the shelves all together ? Please educate me.
Doctors practice evidence based medicine not anecdotal medicine. What one person sees in a very limited patient population may not reflect the reality of the situation and groupthink is a phenomenon which explains why so many medical professionals have turned to using this medication off-label for prophylaxis and therapy of COVID.

People have historically used this medicine in the treatment of specific rheumatic disorders after evidence (in the form of RCTs) demonstrated that the benefits outweighed the risks. Reviewed evidence does not exist
which supports its use currently.
 
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There is a risk/reward equation. You don't get to write something down in the reward column unless there is good evidence for it to be there. There is absolutely a bunch of evidence in the risk column. So you would only Rx HCQ for something with a proven use (this isn't it)
What kind of a risk a medicine that millions have been taking for even 20 , 30 years, could pose by taking for 5 or 6 days? Is it that hard to understand? Well you have all the time in the world to wait for the evidence to show up after a few years. That’s not the case for the unfortunate ones who contracted the virus.
 
Doctors practice evidence based medicine not anecdotal medicine. What one person sees in a very limited patient population may not reflect the reality of the situation and groupthink is a phenomenon which explains why so many medical professionals have turned to using this medication off-label for prophylaxis and therapy of COVID.

People have historically used this medicine in the treatment of specific rheumatic disorders after evidence (in the form of RCTs) demonstrated that the benefits outweighed the risks. Reviewed evidence does not exist
which supports its use currently.
Please educate me what are the RISKS you guys are worried of? This is not a new medicine. It has a 70 year safety profile. Based on that profile, which is bothering you to prescribe it for 5 or 6 days of established safe dosage? What percentage of the population is susceptible to those risk and what is the probability? Please explain. I do not want text book response.
 
Please educate me what are the RISKS you guys are worried of? This is not a new medicine. It has a 70 year safety profile. Based on that profile, which is bothering you to prescribe it for 5 or 6 days of established safe dosage? What percentage of the population is susceptible to those risk and what is the probability? Please explain. I do not want text book response.
This is not intended as medical advice. This is readily available information from an online database:
Adverse Reactions
1% to 10%: Ophthalmic: Retinopathy (4%; serum concentration dependent [Petri 2019]; early changes reversible [may progress despite discontinuation if advanced])
Frequency not defined:
Dermatologic: Acute generalized exanthematous pustulosis, alopecia, bullous rash, dyschromia (skin and mucosal), erythema multiforme, exacerbation of psoriasis, exfoliative dermatitis, hair discoloration, pruritus, skin photosensitivity, skin rash, Stevens-Johnson syndrome, toxic epidermal necrolysis, urticaria
Endocrine & metabolic: Exacerbation of porphyria, severe hypoglycemia, weight loss
Gastrointestinal: Abdominal pain, decreased appetite, diarrhea, nausea, vomiting
Hematologic & oncologic: Agranulocytosis, anemia, aplastic anemia, bone marrow failure, hemolysis (in patients with glucose-6-phosphate deficiency), leukopenia, thrombocytopenia
Hepatic: Abnormal hepatic function tests, acute hepatic failure
Hypersensitivity: Angioedema
Immunologic: Drug reaction with eosinophilia and systemic symptoms
Nervous system: Ataxia, dizziness, emotional lability, fatigue, headache, irritability, nervousness, nightmares, psychosis, seizure, sensorineural hearing loss, suicidal tendencies, vertigo
Neuromuscular & skeletal: Myopathy (including palsy or neuromyopathy, leading to progressive weakness and atrophy of proximal muscle groups; may be associated with mild sensory changes and loss of deep tendon reflexes)
Ophthalmic: Corneal changes (corneal edema, corneal opacity, corneal sensitivity, corneal deposits, visual disturbance, blurred vision, photophobia), decreased visual acuity, macular degeneration, maculopathy, nystagmus disorder, retinal pigment changes, retinitis pigmentosa, scotoma, vision color changes, visual field defect
Otic: Deafness, tinnitus
Respiratory: Bronchospasm
Postmarketing:
Cardiovascular: Cardiomyopathy, prolonged QT interval on ECG, torsades de pointes, ventricular arrhythmia, ventricular tachycardia (FDA Safety Alert, April 24, 2020)
Endocrine & metabolic: Hypoglycemia (can be severe; Cansu 2008; FDA Safety Alert, April 1, 2020; Unübol 2011)
Hematologic & oncologic: Neutropenia (FDA Safety Alert, April 1, 2020), pancytopenia (FDA Safety Alert, April 1, 2020)
Nervous system: Agitation (FDA Safety Alert, April 1, 2020), confusion (FDA Safety Alert, April 1, 2020), delirium (FDA Safety Alert, April 1, 2020), extrapyramidal reaction (FDA Safety Alert, April 1, 2020), hallucination (FDA Safety Alert, April 1, 2020)
Ophthalmic: Epithelial keratopathy (Dosso 2007)
Renal: Renal insufficiency (FDA Safety Alert, April 1, 2020)
Contraindications
Known hypersensitivity to hydroxychloroquine, 4-aminoquinoline derivatives, or any component of the formulation.
Canadian labeling: Additional contraindications (not in the US labeling): Preexisting retinopathy; use in children <6 years or weighing <35 kg
Warnings/Precautions
Concerns related to adverse effects:
• Cardiovascular effects: Cardiomyopathy resulting in cardiac failure, sometimes fatal, has been reported (symptoms may present as atrioventricular block, pulmonary hypertension, sick sinus syndrome, or as cardiac complications), and may appear during acute or chronic therapy. Monitor for signs/symptoms of cardiac compromise; discontinue treatment promptly if signs and symptoms of cardiomyopathy occur. In a scientific statement from the American Heart Association, hydroxychloroquine has been determined to be an agent that may either cause direct myocardial toxicity or exacerbate underlying myocardial dysfunction (magnitude: major) (AHA [Page 2016]). Consider chronic toxicity if conduction disorders (eg, bundle branch block, atrioventricular heart block) as well as biventricular hypertrophy are diagnosed. May also be associated with QT interval prolongation; ventricular arrhythmia and torsades de pointes have been reported (monitor QT-prolonging effects during therapy in at-risk patients or if used in combination with other medications that prolong the QT interval).
• Dermatologic effects: Skin reactions to hydroxychloroquine may occur; use with caution in patients on concomitant medications with a propensity to cause dermatitis.
• Hematologic effects: Bone marrow suppression (eg, agranulocytosis, anemia, aplastic anemia, leukopenia, thrombocytopenia) have been reported; periodically monitor CBC during prolonged therapy. Discontinue treatment if signs/symptoms of severe blood disorder not attributable to the underlying disease occur.
• Hypoglycemia: Severe hypoglycemia, including life-threatening loss of consciousness, has been reported in patients with and without concomitant use of antidiabetic agents. Advise patients of risk of hypoglycemia and associated signs/symptoms; discontinue use in patients who develop severe hypoglycemia.
• Neuromuscular effects: Proximal myopathy or neuromyopathy, leading to progressive weakness, proximal muscle atrophy, depressed tendon reflexes, and abnormal nerve conduction may occur, especially with long-term therapy. Curvilinear bodies and muscle fiber atrophy with vacuolar changes have been noted on muscle or nerve biopsy. Muscle strength (especially proximal muscles) and reflexes should be assessed periodically during long term therapy.
• Psychiatric effects: Suicidal behavior has been reported rarely.
• Retinal toxicity: Retinal toxicity, potentially causing irreversible retinopathy, is predominantly associated with high daily doses and a duration of >5 years of use of chloroquine or hydroxychloroquine in the treatment of rheumatic diseases. One study suggested a correlation of higher serum concentrations of hydroxychloroquine with ocular toxicity (Petri 2019). Other major risk factors include concurrent tamoxifen use, renal impairment, lower body weight, and the presence of macular disease. Daily hydroxychloroquine (base) doses >5 mg/kg actual body weight were associated with an ~10% risk of retinal toxicity within 10 years of treatment and an almost 40% risk after 20 years of therapy. Risk is most accurately assessed on the basis of duration of use relative to daily dose/body weight (Marmor [AAO 2016]; Melles 2014). Based on these risks, the American Academy of Ophthalmology (AAO) recommends not exceeding a daily hydroxychloroquine dosage of 5 mg/kg using actual body weight in most patients. Previous recommendations to use ideal body weight are no longer advised; very thin patients in particular were at increased risk for retinal toxicity using this practice. Current AAO guidelines do not specifically address dosing in obese patients. AAO also recommends baseline screening for retinal toxicity and annual screening beginning after 5 years of use (or sooner if major risk factors are present) (Marmor [AAO 2016]). If ocular toxicity is suspected, discontinue and monitor closely; retinal changes and visual disturbances may progress after discontinuation. A baseline ocular exam is recommended within the first year of initiating hydroxychloroquine treatment.
Disease-related concerns:
• G6PD deficiency: Although the manufacturer's labeling recommends hydroxychloroquine be used with caution in patients with G6PD deficiency due to a potential for hemolytic anemia, there is limited data to support this risk. Many experts consider hydroxychloroquine, when given in usual therapeutic doses to WHO Class II and III G6PD deficient patients, to probably be safe (Cappellini 2008; Glader 2017; Luzzatto 2016; Youngster 2010). Safety in Class I G6PD deficiency (ie, severe form of the deficiency associated with chronic hemolytic anemia) is generally unknown (Glader 2017). In a retrospective chart review, no incidence of hemolytic anemia was found among the 11 patients identified with G6PD deficiency receiving hydroxychloroquine therapy, despite >700 months of exposure (all patients were African-American and located in the US) (Mohammad 2017). In addition, the ACR Rheumatology guidelines do not mention the need to evaluate G6PD levels prior to initiation of therapy (Singh 2016).
• Gastrointestinal disorders: Use with caution in patients with gastrointestinal disorders.
• Hepatic impairment: Use with caution in patients with hepatic impairment, alcoholism, or concurrent therapy with hepatotoxic agents.
• Porphyria: Use with extreme caution in patients with porphyria; may exacerbate or precipitate disease.
• Psoriasis: Use with extreme caution in patients with psoriasis; may exacerbate or precipitate disease.
• Renal impairment: Use with caution in patients with renal impairment; dosage reduction may be needed.
Special populations:
• Pediatric: Pediatric patients have an increased sensitivity to aminoquinolines. Safety and efficacy have not been established for chronic use in children for juvenile idiopathic arthritis or for systemic lupus erythematosus.
Concurrent drug therapy issues:
• Drug-drug interactions: Potentially significant interactions may exist, requiring dose or frequency adjustment, additional monitoring, and/or selection of alternative therapy. Consult drug interactions database for more detailed information.
 
This is not intended as medical advice. This is readily available information from an online database:

Still you haven’t answered my question.

I see only two major risks. One is retinal toxicity, but this is a possible issue only for prolonged use of 5, 10 years. But we are talking about 6 days.

The other is arrhythmia caused by QT prolongation. But it could affect only around 0.01% of the population who has QT prolongation. Even for them, the risk is reduced by 50% if you substitute AZM with some other antibiotic like Doxycycline.

Which risk and it’s probability is bothering you so much that you won’t prescribe HCQ for 6 days? Why the medical community is screaming to ban this medicine from physicians prescribing for Covid?
 
Still you haven’t answered my question.

I see only two major risks. One is retinal toxicity, but this is a possible issue only for prolonged use of 5, 10 years. But we are talking about 6 days.

The other is arrhythmia caused by QT prolongation. But it could affect only around 0.01% of the population who has QT prolongation. Even for them, the risk is reduced by 50% if you substitute AZM with some other antibiotic like Doxycycline.

Which risk and it’s probability is bothering you so much that you won’t prescribe HCQ for 6 days? Why the medical community is screaming to ban this medicine from physicians prescribing for Covid?
There is not good evidence of effective treatment so even if there were almost no downsides (that’s not the case) we wouldn’t prescribe it
 
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