Course load advice?

[Phoenix.]

I'm currently a lawyer, but will be going back to school to satisfy my prereqs for med school. I am thinking of satisfying them by taking Bio and Chem over next summer (2006), and Physics and Organic Chem next year (2006-2007), with the MCAT in April '07. I will quit working before the summer starts in order to concentrate on the classes. Does this sound feasible, or not such a great idea? I'll be taking the classes through Loyola's premed postbac program, and will start volunteering in the ER of a local hospital in two weeks.

My concerns are primarily if taking two hard science classes over the summer (with labs) might be too much, and/or if it's a bad idea to be taking both Physics and Org (which I've heard are quite rough) while studying for the MCAT.

[If my plan above is a bad idea, I could take Physics this year while I'm working (it's the only evening class available), but I've heard that the prof teaching the class is horrible, and I'm not altogether keen with starting this process with a horrible experience. But if I did take Physics this year, I could just take Chem over the summer and Bio & Org Chem over the next year. The final alternative would be to quit working at the end of this year, and start with Bio I and Chem I for Spring 06, Physics I for the first half of the summer, Bio II and Chem II at the second half of the summer, Physics II and Org I for fall '06 and just Org II for spring '07 while I'll be studying for the MCAT.]

Any advice would be greatly appreciated. Or, if anyone wants to share how they plotted their courses out and what they learned from the experience, that'd be great. Thanks!

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[PineappleGirl]

Wow. I definitely would not take bio and chem both over the summer. You are just asking for trouble! I really think it is best to take these over a full academic year, like you are planning to do with orgo and physics. Most of the post-bacc programs recommend the two year approach, for example, Harvard Extension. You might want to consider doing just bio or just chem over the summer and maybe add on another psuedo-pre-med class like stats or calc or english (stuff that's required by some schools but not others). Better to take it slow and do well than burn yourself out with too much work.

 

[Phoenix.]

PineappleGirl: Good advice, but I'm 30 right now, and my goal is to take the April 2006 MCAT and apply to med schools when I get my score back, so that I'll be starting med school in Fall 2007. I could spread those four classes out over more time, but I have decided not to (and I have seen a number of premed postbac programs that cover the four classes in one year, but generally with Chem over the summer, and Bio, Phys and Org over the year). So, I have this year, this summer, and next year to work with.

None of the med schools I want to go to require stats or calc, and I have tons of english already, so I have decided to just take the four required prereqs. And since I've decided to continue working this year to save up more money, it limits what I can take at Loyola this year. I suppose you're suggesting that I take Physics with the horrible prof as an alternative to taking Bio & Chem over the summer together, or to quit working this December so I can start Bio & Chem spring semester of this year, and only have one Summer session with both Bio & Chem. I'll certainly take that into consideration. Do you think it's a bad idea to take Bio & Chem over the summer because you've done it? Or just your impression?

Has anyone taken Chem and Bio over the summer? Or Chem and Physics?

 

[emgirl]

The thing with condensing one year of a class (chem, bio, etc) in a summer is that you are in class all day, everyday- and you must learn the material very quickly. I'm not even sure it is feasible to take a year of bio AND chem in the summer timewise since just one of those sequences would require class and lab probably ever day. When I took a year of Ochem over the summer, we completed a quarter every three weeks and my days were spent with class in the morning and labs in the evenings (9-6), I barely had enough time to study for the one class so I don't recommend taking two- just do chem or bio, but it will still be intense. You don't want to shoot yourself in the foot- you have basically a clean slate with your science gpa so take your time and do it right. But if you meant to just take 1 semester's worth of bio and chem over the summer (not a whole year's worth), that is totally doable. Good luck Em

 

[Phoenix.]

emgirl: You're right, it may not be doable. I spoke with one person who took Chem and Physics over the summer who said it was ok, but who knows? While I don't have a strong math background, I am willing to work hard and have always done well in classes, so I figured it might be ok.

I took a look to see if it were technically possible, and going by Loyola's summer course schedule for THIS summer (I'd be doing this next summer), on MWF I would have a Bio lecture from 10-12 and a Chem lecture from 12:30-3:20, and on TTh I'd have Bio lab from 8:30-11:15 and Chem lab from 12:30-3:20.

I'm hoping a couple of people who took two summer classes might chime in with their experiences....

 

[notdeadyet]

PineappleGirl: Good advice, but I'm 30 right now, and my goal is to ...

If you're 30 already, the difference between applying as a 31 year old or applying as a 32 year old is really negligible in terms of admissions.

If you look at the nontraditional applicants forum and other threads here, the one thing you will find almost universally is folks advising not to RUSH it. I think this is especially true for people 30 and over, as a year or two does not make a huge difference.

Incidentally, I'm 33, so I'm in the same boat.

Has anyone taken Chem and Bio over the summer? Or Chem and Physics?

I've heard from folks who have taken Chem alone over the summer and this was pretty much a full-time gig. Taking both you might be asking for trouble.

Think: If you roll the dice and it's too much, you'll have grades that suffer and material that you don't learn as well. I think that's much more damaging on an application than applying a year later. Just my $0.02...

 

[Phoenix.]

Notdeadyet: True, but it's not just that I'll be a year older, it's mainly that I'm really really EAGER to start.

I won't be working while I'm studying, so I thought it would be doable. But perhaps the revised schedule below iis the best alternative, since it avoids taking two summer classes at the same time and stays under 12 credits a semester (cost), but still allows me to work and save up some money until this December 05. Also, it won't be too heavy a courseload while I'm studying for the MCAT in Spring 07:

I would quit work right before the Spring 06 semester:

Spring 06 Semester
Bio I + Lab
Chem I + Lab

Summer Session I
Physics I + Lab

Summer Session II
Chem II + Lab

Fall 06 Semester
Physics II + Lab
Org Chem I + Lab

Spring 07 Semester
Bio II + Lab
Org Chem II + Lab

Or would it be a bad idea to take the MCAT while finishing my second semester of Bio? If so, I'll juggle it around and switch Physics II and Bio II. Thanks for the input!

 

[jlittlej]

But, as a full-time student, wouldn't it look bad to take only two courses, even if they have labs? The average undergrad will be carrying two science courses with labs plus at least one more course.

 

[Phoenix.]

JlittleJ: True. I guess I'll either take an extra 3 credit class Spring 06 and Fall 07, or maybe see if I can get a health-field related job/research in a lab, extra volunteering, or perhaps even get certification to be an EMT. I'm trying to stay under 12 credits. (If you take less than 12 credits a semester, you only pay $500/credit, rather than a set $13,000 a semester.) I guess I'm hitting the extremes - my course load is either too heavy or too light. Some of you seem to be saying to spread it out and take my time, while others point out that you need to take a rigorous course load to show them you can handle it. I can't really do part time work as an attorney (although I could look into legal temping), so I feel kind of stuck in between too much and too little course-load-wise.

And would it really be so bad if I only took two classes the semester I take the MCAT? Cause I'd really like to be able to devote the time to study for it intensively.

 

[mshheaddoc]

I am taking BIO I right now during the day and then an MBA class at night. Its HORRIBLE.

I highly highly highly suggest, do NOT try to do both during a summer. Do the spring thing if you need to but think of it this way. This is your foundation. If you rush though it, you are screwed. I'm really struggling with bio only b/c i'm trying to get the motivation to do it.

I'm in the same boat as yourself for Taking 2006 MCAT. I suggest you try to get the bio done in spring and summer. I also suggest that you take some upper level biology class simultaneously in the Fall/Spring. I will be taking Ochem (retake from 6 years ago), Biochem, physics, and Bio II this fall. Next spring I'm planning on Ochem II, Ochem Lab (its separate) adv bio chem, physics II, and maybe microbiology (depends on the schedule and how dire I am for the MCAT studying). I am actually going for a 2nd degree in Biochem. This year I will finish the prereqs and a few core classes and next year (while applying) I will be finishing the classes that I need (I only really need about 55-60 credits or so to get the degree) but its my back up plan because then I have my fall semester grades to update my application in January if I haven't had any bites

Yes you can get in on just your pre-reqs but these days (especially from non-trads from what I gather) - if you take a few upper levels and do well it solidifies your "hard science" experience. Med school is all hard science. If you want to prove you can hack it, i suggest you take at least a few upper level classes.

 

[Phoenix.]

I am taking BIO I right now during the day and then an MBA class at night. Its HORRIBLE.

I highly highly highly suggest, do NOT try to do both during a summer. Do the spring thing if you need to but think of it this way. This is your foundation. If you rush though it, you are screwed. I'm really struggling with bio only b/c i'm trying to get the motivation to do it.

Yes you can get in on just your pre-reqs but these days (especially from non-trads from what I gather) - if you take a few upper levels and do well it solidifies your "hard science" experience. Med school is all hard science. If you want to prove you can hack it, i suggest you take at least a few upper level classes.

Sounds like good advice, but if I avoid taking two summer classes at the same time, and start with Chem/Bio this spring, they don't offer Chem or Bio II the first spring session, so I can only take Chem II OR Bio II for the second half of the summer. Since I've heard you really should complete Chem II before starting Org Chem, I'll need to finish Chem II over the summer. I think it'd be great to finish Bio II early so I could take some upperlevel bio classes, but I just won't be able to fit it in. UNLESS Loyola's undergrad school accepts my 11 year old summer Bio I & II classes (taken at Columbia Univ) to satisfy the prereq for upperlevel Bio classes. If they do, I'll definitely take Genetics Fall '06. I'll have to check.... But thanks - I may not have thought of checking on that otherwise.

 

[mshheaddoc]

Sounds like good advice, but if I avoid taking two summer classes at the same time, and start with Chem/Bio this spring, they don't offer Chem or Bio II the first spring session, so I can only take Chem II OR Bio II for the second half of the summer. Since I've heard you really should complete Chem II before starting Org Chem, I'll need to finish Chem II over the summer. I think it'd be great to finish Bio II early so I could take some upperlevel bio classes, but I just won't be able to fit it in. UNLESS Loyola's undergrad school accepts my 11 year old summer Bio I & II classes (taken at Columbia Univ) to satisfy the prereq for upperlevel Bio classes. If they do, I'll definitely take Genetics Fall '06. I'll have to check.... But thanks - I may not have thought of checking on that otherwise.

check out other schools in your area as well and just transfer them in.

Also, if you already took Bio you might be able to swing the Bio and Chem at the same time. Not to demean your abilities at all. If you feel you can handle it, go for it.

 

[USArmyDoc]

Pheonix,
I think you have demostrated your dedication and ability to put in hours of studying by your successful completion of law school. Therefore, I think you may be able to pull it off. It will be tough but as I have previously said you area no stranger to long hours of studying. Just make sure to get your A's. Good Luck

 

[BooMed]

I did a one-year program, with a "year" of gen chem over the summer (those were long days with class all morning and lab all afternoon every day--not terrible, but not the best summer I've ever had either ). Then during the year I took a whole year of physics, organic, and biology, a half year of physiology in the fall and studied for the MCAT with a Kaplan course during the Spring. That was very, very miserable. Like, to the point that I probably cried once a week or so, if not more. But that has a lot to do with my personality and the school I went to

I guess I would say to ask yourself what you should do. Like, for me personally I am a pretty good student--I learn quickly, I test well and I liked the material a lot. But I wasn't very good at handling stress in the beginning and I sort of drove myself crazy freaking out. And I probably would have done better on the MCAT if I had taken it after completing my bio, orgo and physics courses, but I was too impatient to wait.

I do agree with the last poster--you made it through law school?! You are made of tougher stuff than the average person.

 

[Febrifuge]

Wow. I definitely would not take bio and chem both over the summer. You are just asking for trouble!

Tell that to my postbac. In the ten weeks of summer semester, we're doing five weeks of Chem I, five weeks of Orgo I, and five weeks (overlapping) of Bio.

Yes, it can be done. (Yes, it sucks.)

 

[Superflyjsc]

Notdeadyet: True, but it's not just that I'll be a year older, it's mainly that I'm really really EAGER to start.

I won't be working while I'm studying, so I thought it would be doable. But perhaps the revised schedule below iis the best alternative, since it avoids taking two summer classes at the same time and stays under 12 credits a semester (cost), but still allows me to work and save up some money until this December 05. Also, it won't be too heavy a courseload while I'm studying for the MCAT in Spring 07:

I would quit work right before the Spring 06 semester:

Spring 06 Semester
Bio I + Lab
Chem I + Lab

Summer Session I
Physics I + Lab

Summer Session II
Chem II + Lab

Fall 06 Semester
Physics II + Lab
Org Chem I + Lab

Spring 07 Semester
Bio II + Lab
Org Chem II + Lab

Or would it be a bad idea to take the MCAT while finishing my second semester of Bio? If so, I'll juggle it around and switch Physics II and Bio II. Thanks for the input!

I dunno. If I were you I would finish each class without a semester or 2 break inbetween I and II. Your taking Bio I in spring 06 then taking Bio II spring 07? If I were you I would take and finish each class consecutive semesters. Just so you wont forget all the information you just learned that semester.

 

[RogueRules]

Phoenix1 - I think the idea of doing it in 1.5 years is probably the best way to go (versus 1 year) and is entirely doable. Your schedule looks good; the only change I would make is to take Bio in the Fall semester and Physicss II in the spring. I do not know how Loyola structures it's Bio courses, but if you are doing systems in the 2nd semester, you will want to have covered all that before taking the MCAT. By having both Orgo and Bio unfinished before taking the MCAT, you are stacking the deck against yourself on the Bio portion of the MCAT. Also, Bio builds more on itself than the two semesters of Physics II do, and so you won't really be at a disadvantage for having put some time between your two physics courses.

Studying for the MCAT is VERY time consuming and emotionally draining. It is a stressful time; 2 courses with labs (especially with one of those courses being Orgo) will be PLENTY. I was taking only Orgo and felt stressed. Also, I would not recommend that you transfer your credits from 11 years ago just to take higher level courses. The MCAT does not test the material of higher level courses, and unless you did well AND remember everything that you learned 11 years ago, you will be doing yourself a disservice not retaking those classes. I went to Dartmouth as an undergrad, had taken a few classes there, but retook them all as a postbacc (I started postbacc at 29).

As some people have said, doing well in your coursework is critical as a post-bacc. So, be sure you can be successful, and if when you're studying for the MCAT you feel that you can't do well in both your classes and the MCAT, do NOT sacrifice your class performance - postpone the MCAT till August, and do well in both areas. You can still apply that year and start the following fall. But, chances are you'll be able to do both, and you'll have met your timeline as planned.

Also, do not worry about 'only' taking 2 courses and having that look like too light a work load. Fill whatever other time you may have with community service/volunteer/medical/research experience - as that matters in your applications. I did not find through my or my friends' experience that this was ever a serious factor in admissions, as long as you were a strong candidate (i.e. had top grades and good extra-curriculars).

At the end of the day, what medical schools are looking for in a non-traditional applicant is a unique package. You bring flavor to a school, and the more you can make yourself stand out as something different, someone interesting with an unconventional background, the better off you will be. Schools look at the whole package, and so you will want to present as compelling and interesting a package as you can. Taking an extra course does NOT make you stand out. Anyone can do that. Take an EMT course, volunteer with an ambulance corps, etc - that is certainly more interesting.

As for higher level courses - you can always take those during your lag year. Personally, I'd recommend taking biochem, as you will find that med schools fly through it quickly and it can only help to have seen the material before. I hadn't taken it and did fine in med school, but I was wishing I would have had the opportunity to have taken it before (I linked and so didn't have a lag year).

Good luck, enjoy the ride!

Notdeadyet: True, but it's not just that I'll be a year older, it's mainly that I'm really really EAGER to start.

I won't be working while I'm studying, so I thought it would be doable. But perhaps the revised schedule below iis the best alternative, since it avoids taking two summer classes at the same time and stays under 12 credits a semester (cost), but still allows me to work and save up some money until this December 05. Also, it won't be too heavy a courseload while I'm studying for the MCAT in Spring 07:

I would quit work right before the Spring 06 semester:

Spring 06 Semester
Bio I + Lab
Chem I + Lab

Summer Session I
Physics I + Lab

Summer Session II
Chem II + Lab

Fall 06 Semester
Physics II + Lab
Org Chem I + Lab

Spring 07 Semester
Bio II + Lab
Org Chem II + Lab

Or would it be a bad idea to take the MCAT while finishing my second semester of Bio? If so, I'll juggle it around and switch Physics II and Bio II. Thanks for the input!