Corporate Optometry

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What percentage do you think would follow you? If you left and some new doc came in and charged half as much, do you think most of your patients would really follow you? I'm just curious. I've heard that only a small percentage will actually do that.

To answer your question, I would say at least 60%. There are a few patients in any office that are just there to get glasses and it doesn't matter who does it and those guys just kind of migrate to whomever is closest when their glasses break. These are also the guys that you tell have glc and schedule a f/u for work-up that they no-show for. I had a PP that I closed to take a WM in the next town and brought a good 30% of my patients with me despite the 20 min drive and passing 15 ODs on the way.

Please don't be one of these guys that are hung up on fees because they are irrelavent. I have tried to make this point multiple times. Unless you are going to start paying your patients to come to you, there will always be someone that will do it cheaper. I charge $85 for a regular exam and $120 for a CL exam. There is an OD 10min down the road at another WM that charges $35 and $55 and I stay much busier than she does and most of her patients end up in my office. I try hard to make a personal connection so that my patients indentify with ME and not the location of my office. I dilate 95% of my patients and treat a lot of dry eye, glc (for some reason I'm a lightening rod for juvenille glc) and the only thing I refer is surgical cases. The biggest thing I have going for me is that I am nice and I care about the job I do and patients can sense this.

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To answer your question, I would say at least 60%. There are a few patients in any office that are just there to get glasses and it doesn't matter who does it and those guys just kind of migrate to whomever is closest when their glasses break. These are also the guys that you tell have glc and schedule a f/u for work-up that they no-show for. I had a PP that I closed to take a WM in the next town and brought a good 30% of my patients with me despite the 20 min drive and passing 15 ODs on the way.

Please don't be one of these guys that are hung up on fees because they are irrelavent. I have tried to make this point multiple times. Unless you are going to start paying your patients to come to you, there will always be someone that will do it cheaper. I charge $85 for a regular exam and $120 for a CL exam. There is an OD 10min down the road at another WM that charges $35 and $55 and I stay much busier than she does and most of her patients end up in my office. I try hard to make a personal connection so that my patients indentify with ME and not the location of my office. I dilate 95% of my patients and treat a lot of dry eye, glc (for some reason I'm a lightening rod for juvenille glc) and the only thing I refer is surgical cases. The biggest thing I have going for me is that I am nice and I care about the job I do and patients can sense this.
Welcome to SDN Dr. Nelson. I hope you find this site a litte more friendly than ODWire.
 
Welcome to SDN Dr. Nelson. I hope you find this site a litte more friendly than ODWire.

Thanks Ben, I didn't use my real name because the entry screen encouraged me not to. I also saw McD and Keith also, so hey fellas. Since you guys are using your actual names, I'll see if they can change it for me!
 
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Just tried to change it myself and couldn't figure it out. Anyone that can advise me how to change my screen name would be appreciated.
 
Just tried to change it myself and couldn't figure it out. Anyone that can advise me how to change my screen name would be appreciated.

Ask a mod to change it, sometimes they'll do it.

Also, I second the welcome. As an ODWire lurker (long story), I've really enjoyed reading your posts. I'm not a fan of commercial, but I also realize its not going away and its certainly no reason to take a personal disliking to commercial ODs.
 
To answer your question, I would say at least 60%. There are a few patients in any office that are just there to get glasses and it doesn't matter who does it and those guys just kind of migrate to whomever is closest when their glasses break. These are also the guys that you tell have glc and schedule a f/u for work-up that they no-show for. I had a PP that I closed to take a WM in the next town and brought a good 30% of my patients with me despite the 20 min drive and passing 15 ODs on the way.

Please don't be one of these guys that are hung up on fees because they are irrelavent. I have tried to make this point multiple times. Unless you are going to start paying your patients to come to you, there will always be someone that will do it cheaper. I charge $85 for a regular exam and $120 for a CL exam. There is an OD 10min down the road at another WM that charges $35 and $55 and I stay much busier than she does and most of her patients end up in my office. I try hard to make a personal connection so that my patients indentify with ME and not the location of my office. I dilate 95% of my patients and treat a lot of dry eye, glc (for some reason I'm a lightening rod for juvenille glc) and the only thing I refer is surgical cases. The biggest thing I have going for me is that I am nice and I care about the job I do and patients can sense this.


Steve, you can never get away from us! Mwa ha ha. I think most students should know that your situation IS NOT NORMAL. I have been in quite a few wally's and I always see $39 for an exam, ridiculous. Our local WM is allowing low ball insurances stay afloat. Several docs I know have already been hosed by commercial joints.

I think Steve is a good doc, just working for billionaires instead of completely for himself.

Most SDN frequenters know why I don't support commercial practice. It will be a terrible day if optometry turns into pharmacy.
 
I was wondering if anyone could give me their opinion of working as an optometrist in the corporate world? I've heard several pros and cons. I would appreciate it if you would only give your opinion if you've actually worked in a corporate office.


There is nothing inherently wrong with Corp Optometry. Frankly most new grad can't afford to start their own private practice and working as an employee doctor within another ODs/MDs office pay is much less than if you worked Corporate (when you have a family and student loans – corp optometry seems the best pick). Even those who commented in support of private practice vs Corp can not disagree on this point. If they do then you need to apply for work in their office because what their paying new grad/employee ODs must be phenomenal.

With that being said the only compelling reason not to work Corp Optometry is the long term effect working in corporate practice has on the profession – stuff they don't teach you in school – "look at the big picture." The more ODs working in corporations ultimately the profession end up like pharmacists. When was the last time you had your prescription filled at a private practice pharmacy? If you don't think this could happen to optometry – then you do not understand the dynamics of the profession or career you've chosen. It can happen - private practice is the only way to secure that the profession continues to thrive over the long hall.

Many doctors berate the insurance companies, it not the insurance companies fault. Many times they provide a service to a group of people to would otherwise never seek health care - because frankly without out their insurance coverage they would never be able to afford healthcare services, let alone a pair of glasses with nice frames. For those of you who just can't stomach participating with insurance like VSP - take a good look at your patients (your neighbors, friends and extended family members, no doubt if they have jobs they might have vision insurance - consider it pro bono).

For you who harp about the low reimbursements. These so called low ball insurance companies are sometimes the only thing keeping some practices afloat when there are at least 4 or more of the following Corp Optical shops within 10 to 15 miles of your private practice office (i.e. Wal-mart, Lenscrafters, Sears Optical, JC Penney Optical, Target Optical, Sams Club Optical, Pearle Vision, Sterling Optical, etc…) and in a small all it take is one of these corporations to show up to put you out of business (espeically Wal-mart). And no the public does not view you as a 'real doctor' because real doctors don't work where you purchase your underwear, or groceries. So they question the status of your degree and you are offended. "really are you?"

Here is my two cents regarding ANY doctors who participates with EyeMed (which is part of Luxottica and is one of the largest retail chains/Corp Optometry worldwide) - as far as I'm concerned it is the same as working for Corp Optometry. (So all of these doctors can now step down off their thrown) – Have you ever thought that the profession is being effected worldwide by the choices you make regarding the profession?

Many doctors knock VSP, (however, for the most part they try to only contract with Doctors in private practice. Davis and Spectra aren't too bad either, although I think VSP might reimburse a bit higher (I do mean a bit). But, let face it you could have a private practice were you are only seeing 12 patients per day. Insurance brings your patient count up. And even those who oppose participating with insurances have to agree there is money to be made by accepting insurance. It's no different for Optometrists than for any other private practice doctors (such as, dentists, OB/GYN, cardiologist or pediatrician) – cash only patients are usually the uninsured. Health benefits are a perk to working 10 to 12 hours per day away from your family. As health care cost keeps raising the most expendable health benefits for most companies happens to be Vision coverage. So many of you want have to worry much longer about participating with VSP, Davis or any other insurance. Because employers will do away with them for you – if healthcare cost go much higher. Survey shows that most employees would rather keep medical and dental benefits as part of the work enhanced benefits if they had to choose. Because they figure they & their dependants can go to Wal-mart and get glasses and an eye exam for "just $99.00".

And for the Dr. who mentioned having to be bossed around by a ghetto office manager at Walmart. Was that a slam on her or you (eight years of schooling and look where you ended up?) At least she found her way out of the ghetto – many poor people in that type of situation don't live long enough to be able to do that. I bet if she keeps working for Wal-mart she'll be able to afford to buy a house right next to yours – because you and she just might be earning the same pay. I here some opticians at Walmart earn more then the doctors.

Okay back to you -KelliMW;5754601

Forget all that other BS - having a reasonable blend of private pay patients and insurance is the best and possibly the only way to ensure that the optometry profession and private practice optometry will be around for years and years.

Waiting for your feedback!
 
So if the public does not view us as real doctors considering where some practice same as in buying underwear, groceries etc......than why do these STUPID people keep coming in by the dozens to have their eyes examined in Walmart?
Who in there right freakin' mind would go to Costco, BJ's Walmart and every other cprporations to have their eyes examnined not knowing who the doctor is and how bad or good they might be? I never ever would.
So, we are a very STUPID NATION.
How do you discourage middle class Americans, the wealthy or the poor from getting their eyes examined at Walmart? Explain this to me?
Since we are not real doctors, why are they trusting their most important sense to us?
Americans are IDIOTS!
 
Here is my two cents regarding ANY doctors who participates with EyeMed (which is part of Luxottica and is one of the largest retail chains/Corp Optometry worldwide) - as far as I'm concerned it is the same as working for Corp Optometry. (So all of these doctors can now step down off their thrown) – Have you ever thought that the profession is being effected worldwide by the choices you make regarding the profession?

Many doctors knock VSP, (however, for the most part they try to only contract with Doctors in private practice. Davis and Spectra aren’t too bad either, although I think VSP might reimburse a bit higher (I do mean a bit).


I agree with a portion of your post, but those above are wrong. Though we currently don't take EyeMed, taking it is NOT the same as working commercial. You don't give the unprofessoinal image and you control patient care. You could drop EyeMed at any time an no one is controlling you.

Around here Davis and Spectera are MUCH worse than VSP for both the doctors and patients. The exam fees are around half and they make patients pick from terribly cheap frames and use their terrible labs that take 3 weeks to get the Rx back. I worked for an OD who took spectera while in OD school, they dropped it because it was bad for doc and patient.
 
Since I am new to the forum I want to be clear from the beginning. This is a bit long, so please bear with me. :D

I don't think that corporate optometry has to be a bad situation. I think there are some very bad situations that ODs allow themselved to fall into such as America's Best. Any situation where the corporation EMPLOYS the OD and controls their scheduling and staff is a problem. The OD needs to judge their own speed and comfort zone and needs to be in contol of the hiring/firing of the staff that handles their patients. I admit that my situation is a bit unique, but only to the extent that I did my homework and chose locations and a corporation willing to give the levity I need to practice in a fashion that I'm comfortable with. A lot of situations don't allow for this because there is so much competition for the offices in densly populated areas so it's difficult to be your own "man"...but this applies to PP as well. How many offices in really cool areas start out associate ODs off at $70K w/little or no buy-in? Lots, because they can due to the large volume of potential applicants.

Corporate entities are out to accomplish one thing...make money. That having been said, it doesn't have to affect how I practice. If it does, I don't want the contract anyway and I need to move on. I wish that more commercial ODs would stand up for themselves because I do realize that a lot of them are not a credit to my profession by virtue of truly selling out. If an employer had their choice (corporate or private) they would have the associate working 9am-9pm 7 days a week for peanuts...it's up to the doctor to decide that this is an unacceptable situation. My situation may be a slight variation from the norm, but my point is that it doesn't have to be.

This post is not to defend myself against critics, I know why you feel the way you do. This is to hopefully get some folks attention that may fall into that "taken advantage of" category and give the future ODs the other side of the coin. I'm happy where I am and I do well financially w/o a lot of initial investment and I have no negative corporate involvement in my practice. It is directly because of where I practice that I have the time to be involved in the community, local politics and a few charities.
 
that's insane! why would someone ask you if you're a real doctor or not? i dont get that at all!

So if the public does not view us as real doctors considering where some practice same as in buying underwear, groceries etc......than why do these STUPID people keep coming in by the dozens to have their eyes examined in Walmart?
Who in there right freakin' mind would go to Costco, BJ's Walmart and every other cprporations to have their eyes examnined not knowing who the doctor is and how bad or good they might be? I never ever would.
So, we are a very STUPID NATION.
How do you discourage middle class Americans, the wealthy or the poor from getting their eyes examined at Walmart? Explain this to me?
Since we are not real doctors, why are they trusting their most important sense to us?
Americans are IDIOTS!


Hello07 unbunch your undies. I was just trying to provide the young student with MY honest reply and a balanced view to his/her question (copy of the original question listed below which started this particular forum discussion), it seemed many of you just could not unbiasly tell it like it is.

From: KelliMW

Subject: Corporate Optometry

· I was wondering if anyone could give me their opinion of working as an optometrist in the corporate world. I've heard several pros and cons. I would appreciate it if you would only give your opinion if you've actually worked in a corporate office.

Re-read my comments - I never suggested or hinted that Wal-mart doctors or any commercial optometrists were not real doctors and I never suggested that retail doctors were less qualified, or not good caregivers. (Hey, I personally know both private practice & retail doctors who give our profession a blackeye).

What I said was:
· There is nothing inherently wrong with corporate/commercial optometry practices. Frankly most new grad can't afford to start their own private practice and working as an employee doctor within another ODs/MDs office pay is much less than if you worked Corporate (when you have a family and student loans – corp optometry seems the best pick). Even those who commented here in support of Private Practice Optometry versus Corporate Optometry can not disagree with or deny this fact. If they do then the new grads/newly licensed doctors should seeks employment in these doctors practice.

If you had read the previous strings of comments regarding this discussion you no doubt would have known that my comments regarding the general public feeling you or any optometrist working for Wal-mart, or other retail practices aren't "real doctors" was not initiated by me. It came from comments posted by Eyegirl2k7 on 11/11/2007 (furthermore, this person apparently has an extreme dislike for people from the ghetto – particularly her ghetto Wal-mart office assistant/manager. Excuse me HELLO07 I'll get back to you in a second. I must briefly say something to Eyegirl2k7, and I will do my best to not go off in a tangent. I don't understand how derogatory comments are in any way helpful to the young students who are seeking answers here in this particular "student doctor network forum". I noticed a lot of negativity being displayed particularly by those who are practicing doctors and who are viewed by these students in this type of discussion forum as their senior/seasoned peers. Eyegirl2k7 comments make me wonder if this doctor shows the same signs of disparagement toward her patients. – (apparently this Walmart where she works is not a great distance from the "ghetto" which suggests to me that the demographics of her patients base might included few patients from the ghetto) Think before you speak, perhaps the student who posed the question could be from the ghetto and might have been offended by your comments.


Okay, HELLO07 back to you – I don't know how long you've been practicing. There are industry surveys & market trend studies indicating that many consumers who seek vision services from retail establishment like your Wal-mart, Sams Club, Target, Sears, JC Penney - have a tendency to select these eye care providers based on the convenience (of perhaps being close to their jobs, shopping and the need to run other errands – like buying underwear, groceries etc… one-stop shop quick and convenient – that's why retails have more walk-ins patients then a private practice doctor would even have – getting green colored contacts might be an afterthought for the patient after standing in the checkout line for 20 minutes. Let's face it the retail patients are not contacting a provider referral service asking about your quality eye exam at Wal-mart. First, they want convenience to their home or work, and secondly they want great frames selection at a rock bottom price. People are busy and the retail optical chains are capitalizing on this fact and raking in Million dollar revenues annually - (the basic economic core of retail chains or commercial optometry is supply and demand). However, these same retail optical chains generate large transient patient's base and many retail doctors aren't able to establish long-term patient relationships necessary for optimizing vision care. This is not entirely the doctor's fault (The majority the blame rest squarely with those patients move in & out of various retails (as if they are at an all you can eat smorgasbord buffet) constantly changing doctors and retail locations trying to get the cheapest deal on frames & contact lenses and always looking for which retail chain is offering them the best 2 for 1 pair of glasses or the $99 special - including the exam). What really upsets me is when some retail doctors eventually establish their private practices the doctors are usually the same doctors doing most of the cussing and screaming about low insurance reimbursements. I understand that the health insurance industry is highly competitive and frankly many businesses would not survive without accepting insurance. But, that depends on what each individual's goals are and having your own plan to achieve your goals. I participate with two insurances – business is good. I did not have to spend money marketing to Lucent Technologies, Cardinal Health or State Farm employees – I enrolled with their insurance plan. I also have patients who when there insurance changed they stayed with me (as cash patients) because I don't participate with their insurance carrier. I like calling my own shots. I like being in control of the hiring and firing, I like looking around my office and knowing the equipments and everything in the place belongs to my wife. I'm happy with the choices I made for me and my family. God's been good to us. (Retail can make you just as happy too)

The truth surrounding the general publics perception of questioning whether you (or any retail optometrists) are "real doctor" – is because a large percentage of the "general public" – (including middle class Americans, the wealthy and the poor frankly do not know the difference between a licensed optician and a licensed optometrist. --------------- Now let that soak in for a moment before you jump all over me again ------------- I did not say these people were stupid, I said they don't know the difference between a licensed optician and licensed optometrists. I suppose you've never had patients ask an optometrist to adjust their frames or help them pick out frames. In most practices this is clearly deemed the role of the opticians. Adding to these patients confusion is the fact that nowadays many optical only shops operated solely by opticians who are contracting with the same retail chains & vision insurance carriers as optometrists/ophthalmologists. Furthermore these opticians are also lists in patient's doctor directory right along with the ODs/MD (I'm not slamming opticians) that's how I met my wife and my daughter is the best optician there is. Many patients mainly view their optometrists as the person who provides glasses or contact lenses.

I worked as an OD for 5 years – I went back to school, I obtained my ophthalmology degree and I've been practicing under that degree for approximately 25 years. I have another daughter who is an OD and my son will be graduating this year from OSU Optometry School "Go Bucks!" I have 3 offices in Ohio and 1 in Kentucky. My private practices are just great financially (I'm looking to retire soon). I travel at least once or twice a year volunteering vision services with a travelling doctors network (more should try it – especially Eyegirl2k7).

Did you know that the number of optician owned practices are growing at a faster rate than private practice optometrist offices? First, let me make it clear I am not against corporate optometry, vision retail chains or franchises. My main focus is eye health and the bottom line is commercial optometry support eye health often providing services to children, the elderly and underprivileged and many render vision care in rural America (in locations most private practice doctor won't even consider opening an office. Yet, clearly my preference leans toward private practice – strictly because I believe we need to protect our profession from becoming an endangered speices (my opinions have nothing to do with quality of care) I've seen bad doctors on both sides of the fence. Honestly, I have a preference strictly for doctor owned retail establishments rather than corporate non-doctor owned vision centers. (If you are a discerning individual you noticed that I like corp/commercial retail. However, I like them less than private practice or doctor owned franchises --- (I like drinking Pepsi, but I love drinking a cold glass of milk, I also know that drinking milk is healther for me than Pepsi) – I believe priviate practice is healthier for the optometry profession.

My family and I are invested in this wonderful profession. I know – there is someone out there chopping at the bits because they disagree with just about everything I said. But, if you should happened to speak with a doctor who had been in business for years (serving a community when there were no other eye care providers in the town) suddenly forced to close their practice because a large conglomerate optometric retail chains (the mentality of these conglomerates is to dominate the optometry industry – and some of them are even having an impacted on laws and legislations pertaining to our profession – yet they're not licensed providers) -I am specifically talking about Wal-Mart Vision Center, SAM'S CLUB Optical, Target Optical, Sears Optical, JC Penney Optical, Costco Optical, BJs Optical – and don't any of you dare wave your "I am independent contractors agreements" at me unless you can proof you have some ownership in the business (an I'm not talking about you own the patient records). The fact is you don't own the practice or the equipment – you get paid a salary to provide the exam services only – and there's nothing wrong with that – it's honest work, it pays the bills, puts food on the table and you really don't have to work very hard. I brought my first practice from a retiring doctor. I partnered with another doctor to open the 2nd office. The 3rd office is my pride and joy working with my daughter and my son will be joining the practice after 2008 graduation. My 4th office in Kentucky I started about 2 years ago – the doctor died (he was a good friend of mind) I worked out a deal with his wife who was just going to close the office but this office in a poor neighborhood and I vowed to my frient that I would keep this office open. I'm not rich but I am happy and I like calling the shots in my world.

Don't misquote me on this next point -- I would rather an optometrist worked as an independent contractor for an optician owner practice versus retail (again this is my preference).

If we are going to have an open discussion about anything that I have said here, please at least have the decency to be civil (don't be rude or insulting) someone child is reading what you have to say. :D

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I'm an old man with time on his hands.
 
I wish that more commercial ODs would stand up for themselves because I do realize that a lot of them are not a credit to my profession by virtue of truly selling out.

I'm happy where I am and I do well financially w/o a lot of initial investment and I have no negative corporate involvement in my practice. It is directly because of where I practice that I have the time to be involved in the community, local politics and a few charities.


I enjoyed reading your comments.

Your comment regarding commerical ODs standing up for themselves - If they realize the power they actually have. Commercial could not survive without the doctors to perform the exams. That's tremendous unorganized power. One day they will realize they could actually criple the industry by leaving or restructing their contracts so that they have control of hiring and firing, purchasing equipment.

I don't view any doctor who works commercial as selling out the profession. (Well you know I prefer private practice) But ultiminately everyone makes choices for themselves and their families to be happy.


I liked hearing that you are happy/financially stable/and giving back to the community... continue your journey. :)
 
OD's/AOA should collectively make a documentary to inform the public, though I don't know how much, if at all, it will alter the average american perception of Corp optometry.


What about international optometry ? Is it facing these problems ?
 
other retail practices aren’t “real doctors” was not initiated by me. It came from comments posted by Eyegirl2k7 on 11/11/2007 (furthermore, this person apparently has an extreme dislike for people from the ghetto – particularly her ghetto Wal-mart office assistant/manager. Excuse me HELLO07 I'll get back to you in a second. I must briefly say something to Eyegirl2k7, and I will do my best to not go off in a tangent. I don’t understand how derogatory comments are in any way helpful to the young students who are seeking answers here in this particular “student doctor network forum”. I noticed a lot of negativity being displayed particularly by those who are practicing doctors and who are viewed by these students in this type of discussion forum as their senior/seasoned peers. Eyegirl2k7 comments make me wonder if this doctor shows the same signs of disparagement toward her patients. – (apparently this Walmart where she works is not a great distance from the “ghetto” which suggests to me that the demographics of her patients base might included few patients from the ghetto) Think before you speak, perhaps the student who posed the question could be from the ghetto and might have been offended by your comments.

[/SIZE].

right on buddy! i agree wholeheartedly! Let me make a generalized statement: usually people who make attacks on those less fortunate are usually very messed up emotionally themselves. It's true that this is not always the case, but many people make attacks on people to make themselves feel better, when in fact their lives are doing terribly, or they are not able to sustain good relationships with guys/girls, or end up dating people who cheat on them. So in the end, it's usually a sign of that person having an emotional problem. One of my buddies who is a clinical psychologist reads over these forums when his wife (who is an optometrist) browses, feels that is probably the case.
 
DSATJLA,
i commend you for being an OD and then going back to school for more grueling work and dedicating yourself to become an ophthalmologist. I guess you are either an MD or DO. I wish I had the stamina and drive now, 15 years out of OD school , to go and become an MD but it is extremely difficult for me now. What made you want to get your MD after becoming an OD?
Did you tell your children NOT to become physicians and to go optometry school OR was it mostly their choice? Either way, it sounds that you are very proud of both of them.
I give you a lot of credit for being an OD and MD.
Are you against or for OPTOMETRY privileges gained thru legislation each and every year ?
 
Thanks Ben, I didn't use my real name because the entry screen encouraged me not to. I also saw McD and Keith also, so hey fellas. Since you guys are using your actual names, I'll see if they can change it for me!

I'm not sure why some people are so worried for their lives when posting online. It's ridiculous. We are all people who work in the public sector. Of course hundreds and even thousands of people will get to know us. I don't think there is any inherent danger to posting one's REAL NAME.
 
If we are going to have an open discussion about anything that I have said here, please at least have the decency to be civil (don’t be rude or insulting) someone child is reading what you have to say.

It is unfortunate that people do not know how to talk in a civil manner any more. Respect and manners do not seem to be relevant online.
 
I'm not sure why some people are so worried for their lives when posting online. It's ridiculous. We are all people who work in the public sector. Of course hundreds and even thousands of people will get to know us. I don't think there is any inherent danger to posting one's REAL NAME.

I only used a screen name because the registration suggested it, I think you know me well enough to know I ain't skeered a nobody!

BTW, nice avatar you handsome devil. :D
 
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