Coresidents who couldn’t stand each other

[odyssey2]

Do you have any stories about coresidents just not getting along, getting into conflicts, or straight up fighting? How did you or the program deal with it?

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[Crayola227]

I was sexually harassed before. Senior resident real early on, first question they had for me was what my marital status was, I might have been a little snotty saying "Why would you like to know?" and they were like "Just trying to get to know you," although they might have started with stuff like where are you from.

I would have thought I was just being weird, but after that they made a point of pimping me and making me look bad in front of the PDs (but no one else) every chance they had, and but then one-on-one being "charming" and flirtatious, yeah. So that sucked. Just tried to keep my head down.

Granted not the worst tale of this kind of thing, just sucks to have someone gun for you for telling them you're taken. I shouldn't have let on that I knew why they were asking, I think that embarrassed them but I wasn't thinking.

 

[Crayola227]

I also interviewed at a program in Florida where the residents and attendings straight up shouted at each other during morning report, like it was a regular thing. They even bragged about how competitive they were with each other, so it was the norm there.

 

[FlowRate]

We had one resident who most of the other residents disliked. There was a resident that I strongly disliked working with. Most of us were mature enough (and the disliked folks overall functional enough) that it didn't really become an issue. Are you in such a situation? Perhaps some details would help with giving specific advice?

 

[Throwawaydoc]

I have worked with unprofessional residents that went unchecked by attendings because it was easier to do that. It created a repeating cycle of this and was a distraction in residency. In fact that led to tension between residents.

 

[D P356]

I had a co-resident I didn’t like. A great idea is to put pt interest first, be professional and treat people how you want to be treated.

Great training for being an attending. You won’t get along with physicians from every service, or potentially even your partners. Or nurses or administrators that don’t value or understand your role. Residency is a grind and people are tired/overworked.

In private practice, jerk-like behavior isn’t tolerated very well, even if you bring a lot of money in, unless the hospital sucks.

 

[hmockingbird]

I had a co-resident I didn’t like. A great idea is to put pt interest first, be professional and treat people how you want to be treated.

Yeah, this. There was one resident in our class that nobody liked... arrogant, lazy and had zero common sense. We were all polite to them though. No point in starting drama when you’re stuck working with that person.

 

[Crayola227]

We had one resident who most of the other residents disliked. There was a resident that I strongly disliked working with. Most of us were mature enough (and the disliked folks overall functional enough) that it didn't really become an issue. Are you in such a situation? Perhaps some details would help with giving specific advice?

I sort of assumed they were just curious to share anecdotes, but maybe not.

 

[Saddleshoes]

We had two women that were like oil and water in our program, one year

They shared a common country of origin but NOTHING else!

A was on a visa from said country. B was a second generation American from said country. A was from a wealthy family of the "red" religion and was want for nothing. B was from a working class family of the "blue" religion and had to work hard for everything. It seems that The "red" people and the "blue" people had been killing each other for centuries in the home country. You could feel the temperature of the room rise when ever they were together. They did not like each other one bit, right form the start! We learned to keep them apart.

HOWEVER when it came to working together on Patient Care they were curt, but very professional. They understood that we had an important job to do.
You don't have to like your workmates in providing healthcare but you DO have to cooperate for the good of the patient.

By the end of the year, it became a program joke to watch these two operate together.

 

[acapnial]

We had two residents in one year that were infamous for getting into explosive fights. Both were going into the same subspecialty, both had very strong opinions about pretty much everything, both had short tempers. Otherwise complete opposites, one approached medicine with a feet-planted-on-the-ground practical mentality while the other had tons of academic knowledge but very little common sense.

When they were on a rotation together where they had to hand patients off to each other after 24 hour shifts they would always get into arguments, with lots of stuff like "Don't you talk down to me!" "No don't YOU talk down to ME!". It's like they were hand picked to be on a reality show together to ensure a lot of drama.

The program stopped putting them on the same rotation together, and they started pretty much avoiding ever being in the same room as each other. Only one of them matched to the in house fellowship, and I'm pretty sure it's because the PD recognized it would be good idea to rank only one of them.

 

[Redpancreas]

I was sexually harassed before. Senior resident real early on, first question they had for me was what my marital status was, I might have been a little snotty saying "Why would you like to know?" and they were like "Just trying to get to know you," although they might have started with stuff like where are you from.

I would have thought I was just being weird, but after that they made a point of pimping me and making me look bad in front of the PDs (but no one else) every chance they had, and but then one-on-one being "charming" and flirtatious, yeah. So that sucked. Just tried to keep my head down.

Granted not the worst tale of this kind of thing, just sucks to have someone gun for you for telling them you're taken. I shouldn't have let on that I knew why they were asking, I think that embarrassed them but I wasn't thinking.

I can't believe that that's what you say even all these years later. There's no way you could have known better nor should you have known better. This was your visceral, justified response. Don't let this change how you behave.

 

[Redpancreas]

Poor senior resident behavior occurs because it nearly always goes unchecked. The fact is attendings or other team members JDGAF unless it's something egregious like violence and many times they're rewarded for it. For example...pimping. It creates a perceived lack of knowledge on your end and by subconscious extension a lack of your apparent competence which a malignant senior can carefully curate into a notion that you are a liability to the team that he or she is making up for. For interns reading this... I'm not saying all seniors are bad or anything close to a majority act like this, but just be aware attendings will talk extensively senior without you present. They also solicit feedback of the intern which readily gives the senior an opportunity to attribute the team's inefficiencies somewhere if things aren't going to well which is usually everyone's fault. No one's interested in doing the right thing in the moment which is really the only opportunity to point things out given the complexity of medical issues. When we're out at a social gathering with alcohol it's like, OMG! that person was such a jerk, we will totally report them, cue the emotional bonding. In the moment were happening though, crickets...some may go as far as to suck up to said jerk the next time it happens knowing there's really no one holding them accountable. I'm not saying it's anyone's fault in particular or even that I've ever managed to rise above it all.

The only way to respond to it is to do what you can. Learn suave ways to admit what you do not know while demonstrating what you do know. Hint-It's not by thinking aloud unfiltered, but rather by stating your best guess, giving a reason/source, but stating you could be wrong. Don't be afraid to push back too (without stepping over a virtually invisible line). Learn pacification strategies when you know you're working with colleagues with malignant coping mechanisms. It's better to learn all this early in your career than when your practicing independently because these behaviors are not going away.

 

[anonperson]

Poor senior resident behavior occurs because it nearly always goes unchecked. The fact is attendings or other team members JDGAF unless it's something egregious like violence and many times they're rewarded for it. For example...pimping. It creates a perceived lack of knowledge on your end and by subconscious extension a lack of your apparent competence which a malignant senior can carefully curate into a notion that you are a liability to the team that he or she is making up for. For interns reading this... I'm not saying all seniors are bad or anything close to a majority act like this, but just be aware attendings will talk extensively senior without you present. They also solicit feedback of the intern which readily gives the senior an opportunity to attribute the team's inefficiencies somewhere if things aren't going to well which is usually everyone's fault. No one's interested in doing the right thing in the moment which is really the only opportunity to point things out given the complexity of medical issues. When we're out at a social gathering with alcohol it's like, OMG! that person was such a jerk, we will totally report them, cue the emotional bonding. In the moment were happening though, crickets...some may go as far as to suck up to said jerk the next time it happens knowing there's really no one holding them accountable. I'm not saying it's anyone's fault in particular or even that I've ever managed to rise above it all.

The only way to respond to it is to do what you can. Learn suave ways to admit what you do not know while demonstrating what you do know. Hint-It's not by thinking aloud unfiltered, but rather by stating your best guess, giving a reason/source, but stating you could be wrong. Don't be afraid to push back too (without stepping over a virtually invisible line). Learn pacification strategies when you know you're working with colleagues with malignant coping mechanisms. It's better to learn all this early in your career than when your practicing independently because these behaviors are not going away.

Being pimped is not malignant and isn't a sign of poor senior resident behavior.

What is a sign of poor behavior is when a lower level resident can't answer a medical question. No one is born with medical knowledge. One has to open up a book once in awhile and study.

Nothing bothers me more than an overly confident lower level that can't answer $h!t about the medical or surgical condition they are supposedly managing.

 

[Redpancreas]

Being pimped is not malignant and isn't a sign of poor senior resident behavior.

What is a sign of poor behavior is when a lower level resident can't answer a medical question. No one is born with medical knowledge. One has to open up a book once in awhile and study.

Nothing bothers me more than an overly confident lower level that can't answer $h!t about the medical or surgical condition they are supposedly managing.

LOL what? You're conflating two different things.

First of all, it's not the senior's job to ask the intern management questions on rounds (unless they pertain directly to the care about to be performed). It is their job to make sure the intern knows what they are doing BEFORE rounds. Pimping, by definition, is asking questions to reveal a deficiency. Definitely do that, but do your job and get it done before rounds, not during them.

In regards to what you're describing (lack of medical knowledge) that's a problem too. I wouldn't call it poor behavior, but perhaps a lack of accountability. I guess by extension you can assume it's "poor behavior" but that's a fair first assumption. There's multiple ways that can be remedied too, but pimping an intern during rounds is not one of them.

That said, maybe as a fellow you see your job on teams as different than a senior as you're more attending as you've already completed your residency. Also, I guess there's 3 entire tiers of senior (PGY-2,3, and 4) so things may be different.

 

[mvenus929]

LOL what? You're conflating two different things.

First of all, it's not the senior's job to ask the intern management questions on rounds (unless they pertain directly to the care about to be performed). It is their job to make sure the intern knows what they are doing BEFORE rounds. Pimping, by definition, is asking questions to reveal a deficiency. Definitely do that, but do your job and get it done before rounds, not during them.

In regards to what you're describing (lack of medical knowledge) that's a problem too. I wouldn't call it poor behavior, but perhaps a lack of accountability. I guess by extension you can assume it's "poor behavior" but that's a fair first assumption. There's multiple ways that can be remedied too, but pimping an intern during rounds is not one of them.

That said, maybe as a fellow you see your job on teams as different than a senior as you're more attending as you've already completed your residency. Also, I guess there's 3 entire tiers of senior (PGY-2,3, and 4) so things may be different.

Eh. The senior is often doing the teaching on rounds (at least on the teams I've been on--a number of times on hospitalist the attending would just be in the background if we needed it but I would do everything else), and asking questions is part of figuring out where the team sits and what should be the focus of the teaching. Pimping in the traditional sense is demeaning, but a lot of people conflate any questioning during rounds as pimping and that's not the case.

 

[Redpancreas]

Eh. The senior is often doing the teaching on rounds (at least on the teams I've been on--a number of times on hospitalist the attending would just be in the background if we needed it but I would do everything else), and asking questions is part of figuring out where the team sits and what should be the focus of the teaching. Pimping in the traditional sense is demeaning, but a lot of people conflate any questioning during rounds as pimping and that's not the case.

I think pimping (asking questions to identify a deficiencies) needs to be done but before rounds. Things should be clarified before the attending even has to listen and think that's a skill a senior should develop as it encourages accountability and prevents reflex scapegoating and delegitimization of the intern. Regardless, seems like I hold the minority viewpoint here which is fine so long as whatever we all do allows us to provide the best care to patients.

 

[sunshinefl]

I think pimping (asking questions to identify a deficiencies) needs to be done but before rounds. Things should be clarified before the attending even has to listen and think that's a skill a senior should develop as it encourages accountability and prevents reflex scapegoating and delegitimization of the intern. Regardless, seems like I hold the minority viewpoint here which is fine so long as whatever we all do allows us to provide the best care to patients.

I've actually seen residents get scolded by attendings when their medical students weren't able to answer basic questions by the attending. The attending told the residents that it was their job to teach the basics/get the student ready. So I understand what you're saying.

 

[mvenus929]

I think pimping (asking questions to identify a deficiencies) needs to be done but before rounds. Things should be clarified before the attending even has to listen and think that's a skill a senior should develop as it encourages accountability and prevents reflex scapegoating and delegitimization of the intern. Regardless, seems like I hold the minority viewpoint here which is fine so long as whatever we all do allows us to provide the best care to patients.

Maybe rounds work differently where I've done them, but they're teaching rounds, not work rounds. Yes, there should be some degree of preparation--they should know why they are choosing to do what they do, and not just repeat what they've been told or what was signed out to them overnight. But rounds are also about teaching the team and recognizing the nuances in management. Rounds should also be clarified as a safe learning space, which traditional pimping would not fit into. But the act of asking questions is a great way of encouraging critical thinking and learning in trainees.

 

[TraumaLlamaMD]

Teaching can often include asking questions pertinent to the management of the patient, which the resident/intern should have some idea about, with the intent of educating. Pimping, to me, is more about asking minutiae which the resident/intern is unlikely to know, with the intent of humiliating. Unfortunately, an underprepared resident may confuse the two if they fail to answer a fair question and subsequently feel embarrassed.

I do also feel like preparation in this manner is good practice for being put in the spot when a patient asks you a question about indication/outcomes/whatever, and especially for those specialties that have oral boards.

 

[BigRedBeta]

Had two co-residents that for whatever reason just could not stand each other. I and many of my co-residents were friends with both, most people liked both. Both were excellent residents and have gone on to be quite successful in their specialties. They basically just kept their distance from each other the last year and half of residency. Being friends with both, i asked each of them what the deal was, and neither of them could identify an actual issue or event that lead to the bad blood. From my vantage, they were actually very similar in personalities and I think that is what caused the friction.

Personally, while interviewing for PICU fellowship, there was a program that I absolutely loved, but one of the other applicants was so obnoxious on the interview day that I couldn't bear the thought of being co-fellows with them for 3 years, so I ranked the location much lower on my rank-list to avoid them. It wasn't going to be my first choice anyways, and I matched into my #1 ranked program regardless so it didn't ultimately matter much. The other applicant actually ended up choosing not to do PICU fellowship anyways. Fast forward 5 years and the other person walks as an attending in another field into my PICU...they are actually quite nice and we get along great now professionally and personally and have worked very well together.

 

[Mass Effect]

Here's a story of two residents who didn't get along. It didn't end well for one of them.

Knapik v. Mary Hitchcock Mem'l Hosp., 90 F. Supp. 3d 292 | Casetext Search + Citator

Read Knapik v. Mary Hitchcock Mem'l Hosp., 90 F. Supp. 3d 292, see flags on bad law, and search Casetext’s comprehensive legal database

casetext.com

 

[Helpful Troll]

Here's a story of two residents who didn't get along. It didn't end well for one of them.

Knapik v. Mary Hitchcock Mem'l Hosp., 90 F. Supp. 3d 292 | Casetext Search + Citator

Read Knapik v. Mary Hitchcock Mem'l Hosp., 90 F. Supp. 3d 292, see flags on bad law, and search Casetext’s comprehensive legal database

casetext.com

It looks like the resident is now board certified x2 and fully employed. How does that happen?

 

[NuttyEngDude]

At first I thought the name was Kaepernick...

 

[KnuxNole]

Honestly, I would find it more strange to have a group where you didn't have conflict or where two(or more) people didn't like each other. Personalities of people are just so variable IMO.