Conversion of all DO degrees to MD, and ending separation of medicine

[PT2MD]

OK...so is this a totally hypothetical question or is this issue truly being considered on a organizational level? I've enjoyed (most) of the conversation on this thread, but never stopped to consider that basic question.

---

Members don't see this ad.

 

[Dr JPH]

is this issue truly being considered on a organizational level?

Sorry.

The only way to get an MD degree is to go to one of those fancy schools.

 

[HarveyCushing]

ok maybe we can't switch and become M.D. school but can't we at least have a law that allows D.O.'s to put M.D. after their name, since they are virtually the same thing.

I propose something similar to what foreign grads do. Those from the UK, India, Pakistan, the Middle East, are allowed to put M.D. when in fact some (Middle East) schools are not even in English So how can they be "M.D.". While other schools (like in the UK) give 3 degrees none of which are M.D. and when they come to the US their coat,s and business cards say M.D. (I know that sentence ran on)

I think that patients will not be as confused --- and D.O.'s will not be as frustrated.
Imagine patients having to deal with MD -- DO -- MBBS -- M.B., Ch.B -- (and whatever else there is out there) when they all mean the same thing.

This is an interesting comment. However how would you distinguish the added education/training that a DO goes through for OMM?

 

[w a n g]

thats kinda useless, as business cards or introductions will say "physician" or "internist" or something of that kind. under what circumstances do you need the letter degree designation to say so much?

 

[toothless rufus]

There seems to be a persistent theme of "I'd rather be an MD" going on here. That's all I am getting out of this. Hey, that would make a great slogan!

 

[bth7]

If you want to know more about this topic,

check out these Wikipedia articles:

Comparison of osetopathic and allopathic medicine
Discrimination against D.O.s
Allopathic medicine

bth7

 

[Shinken]

 

[Dr JPH]

There seems to be a persistent theme of "I'd rather be an MD" going on here. That's all I am getting out of this. Hey, that would make a great slogan!

"I only got into DO schools...is there some way I can try and change the system?"

 

[Pansit]

"I only got into DO schools...is there some way I can try and change the system?"

JP i know in some previous thread you went on a tangent about how DO schools should be increasing their acceptance standards (higher gpa and mcats), but here you go off on people who "secretly wanted to be in MD schools". But the problem is JP, how can you increase acceptance standards when the majority of people with 28 plus mcats probably have MD as their first choice. So if you want DO schools to increase acceptance standards, would you accept that the "system" be somewhat modified, to not only please the "secret MD's" but also attract applicants of higher caliber. The problem is that alot of pre-meds and probably plenty of DO students see allopathic education as the standard in medicine, but instead of osteopathic medicine trying to work with the allopathic world, they often push a more separatist agenda, ie. "Osteopathic medicine is a more holistic approach" and "treats patients like patients", which get spoon fed to pre-meds like myself, and instead of really drawing me in, it only makes me want to stay away from it. I think it would benefit Osteopathic medicine more if they highlight their similarities with allopathic medicine instead of trying to push away from it. Dont get me wrong, osteopathic medicine has plenty to offer that allopathic education does not, but to continually harp on this difference when the majority of osteopathic medicine is similar to allopathic medicine makes many of us (pre-meds) stray away during the application process. If more pre-meds realize that both schools actually are more similar than different, instead of just telling them "do the research and find out for yourself" (which is how I found out about DO's) then they may get more students to be interested in Osteopathy as their primary choice. This is just my opinion and I would really love to hear your answer. Thanks!

 

[bth7]

If more pre-meds realize that both schools actually are more similar than different, instead of just telling them "do the research and find out for yourself" (which is how I found out about DO's) then they may get more students to be interested in Osteopathy as their primary choice.

Agreed. It's all about spreading the word. And being honest.

For the record, I believe that osteopathic schools do have something special to offer, the problem is that its hard to articulate.

Are we different? Are we the same? This is the BIG question for the whole profession, IMO. As you can see from the poll, we are split right down the middle on it.

 

[Dr JPH]

JP i know in some previous thread you went on a tangent about how DO schools should be increasing their acceptance standards (higher gpa and mcats), but here you go off on people who "secretly wanted to be in MD schools". But the problem is JP, how can you increase acceptance standards when the majority of people with 28 plus mcats probably have MD as their first choice. So if you want DO schools to increase acceptance standards, would you accept that the "system" be somewhat modified, to not only please the "secret MD's" but also attract applicants of higher caliber. The problem is that alot of pre-meds and probably plenty of DO students see allopathic education as the standard in medicine, but instead of osteopathic medicine trying to work with the allopathic world, they often push a more separatist agenda, ie. "Osteopathic medicine is a more holistic approach" and "treats patients like patients", which get spoon fed to pre-meds like myself, and instead of really drawing me in, it only makes me want to stay away from it. I think it would benefit Osteopathic medicine more if they highlight their similarities with allopathic medicine instead of trying to push away from it. Dont get me wrong, osteopathic medicine has plenty to offer that allopathic education does not, but to continually harp on this difference when the majority of osteopathic medicine is similar to allopathic medicine makes many of us (pre-meds) stray away during the application process. If more pre-meds realize that both schools actually are more similar than different, instead of just telling them "do the research and find out for yourself" (which is how I found out about DO's) then they may get more students to be interested in Osteopathy as their primary choice. This is just my opinion and I would really love to hear your answer. Thanks!

I largely agree with you.

I think that DO schools need to increase admission standards and cut class size, not to mention do away with new school expansion and branch campuses.

I also feel that an osteopathic education is 95% similar to an allopathic education with the only difference being OMT.

I dont (and never have) buy into the "holistic" and "treat the whole patient concept". I think those are buzzwords that have been around for too long and have become part of the dogma of osteopathic medicine. No one can give a clear explanation of their meaning and they have outlived their need. They came about during a time when DOs were trying to separate themselves so that they could maintain their DO identity and not be swallowed into the fold of MDs. Thats where we get "separate but equal".

Its nonsense if you ask me.

MD = DO as far as education in all aspects of modern medicine from plastic surgery to anesthesia to molecular genetics.

What do we offer thats different? We offer OMM as part of the education.

Do we offer anything else different? No. If you think we do I would love to hear it. In 4 years of medical school + 1 year of osteopathic undergraduate fellowship I didnt find it....though I was reminded of it on a daily basis.

So I do indeed think the AOA is pushing too hard for their "separate but equal" concept. Its a political agenda. When big brother government comes knocking and wants to know why there are two separate degrees to practice medicine the AOA needs to tell them something to keep them happy. So they feed them the line of the kindler, gentler, hand holding DO who looks at the entire patient. The MD world doesnt need to advertise that part because the mass of people already know (as common sense would dictate) that this type of attitude is personal and not something that can be taught.

I must have missed the "holistic" and "whole patient" classes when I was in school.

So the perpetuating "equal but different" and other buzzwords need to go.

 

[pguin]

Maybe I've missed it in this post but noone seems to address exactly what would happen to all of the osteopathic schools if MD and DO merged into one discipline. I would think that the osteopathic schools would have an extemely difficult time staying around since there current acceptance numbers would put most of them at the very bottom of the lower tier of medical schools. Now obviously these schools could then build up there reputation to get more students but a big problem is that all (except a few) osteopathic schools have much much less funding and are usually not affiliated with the large universities that allopathic schools usually associate with. I would expect that the majority of the osteopathic schools would completely be absorbed by their larger in-state allopathic equivalents and would no longer exist.

This is just something I thought would be a negative by-product to osteopathic medicine if there was a merger of the degrees and disciplines.

 

[Dr JPH]

Maybe I've missed it in this post but noone seems to address exactly what would happen to all of the osteopathic schools if MD and DO merged into one discipline. I would think that the osteopathic schools would have an extemely difficult time staying around since there current acceptance numbers would put most of them at the very bottom of the lower tier of medical schools. Now obviously these schools could then build up there reputation to get more students but a big problem is that all (except a few) osteopathic schools have much much less funding and are usually not affiliated with the large universities that allopathic schools usually associate with. I would expect that the majority of the osteopathic schools would completely be absorbed by their larger in-state allopathic equivalents and would no longer exist.

This is just something I thought would be a negative by-product to osteopathic medicine if there was a merger of the degrees and disciplines.

Not sure what youre getting at here.

The top tier DO schools far exceed many MD schools in a number of ways from techonology to educational resources both on and off campus.

I think what would happen in a situation such as this is that the lower end DO schools would need to work harder to maintain their numbers and their value while the top DO schools would do just fine. From experience I can say that PCOM stands up nicely to the 4 MD schools in the same city. We share many of the same rotation sites, attendings and work together on a regular basis. To say that my education is second rate to any of these schools is false, especially considering the things that PCOM offers that none of the other medical schools in Philadelphia have.

Our lack of university affiliation or lack of a hospital hasnt affected us at all, in fact I think it has removed much of the distraction.

A few years ago when a Philadelphia MD school went broke and another was in danger with accredidation issues, PCOM had no such problems.

Though the loss of our hospital 7 years ago is regretable it has not impacted the clinical education of our students, interns and residents one bit. When we have strong affiliations with all of the Level 1 centers in Philadelphia, not to mention some of the best specialty hospitals in the northeast in a variety of areas...PCOMs education can be put up against any other medical school (MD or DO) in the country and I am confident it will look identical.

If the two degrees would indeed merge (which wont happen, but lets play the pretend game) the application numbers would only INCREASE among these schools...particularly those that are in geopgraphically desirable areas such as Philadelphia, Chicago, NYC, etc.

 

[pennmed07]

. From experience I can say that PCOM stands up nicely to the 4 MD schools in the same city. We share many of the same rotation sites, attendings and work together on a regular basis.

just wondering how would you explain the obvious disparities between the matchlists of Jeff and Penn vs that of PCOM??

 

[Dr JPH]

just wondering how would you explain the obvious disparities between the matchlists of Jeff and Penn vs that of PCOM??

I've never seen the match list from Penn or Jeff.

You sound like you have seen all 3 match lists, so how would you explain it?

A sampling of places where 2007 PCOM grads are currently training:

Penn State Hershey
Newark Beth Israel
Temple
Jeff/duPont Childrens
U Maryland
St Christophers
Emory
Hopkins
Harvard
Jefferson
Christiana
UMass
UCONN
Wake Forest
Cleveland Clinic

And of course PCOM...the only general surgery program in Philadelphia with a laparoscopic surgical simulator.

 

[pennmed07]

I've never seen the match list from Penn or Jeff.

You sound like you have seen all 3 match lists, so how would you explain it?

A sampling of places where 2007 PCOM grads are currently training:

Penn State Hershey
Newark Beth Israel
Temple
Jeff/duPont Childrens
U Maryland
St Christophers
Emory
Hopkins
Harvard
Jefferson
Christiana
UMass
UCONN
Wake Forest
Cleveland Clinic

And of course PCOM...the only general surgery program in Philadelphia with a laparoscopic surgical simulator.

if uve never seen a match list from penn or Jeff, then it might be tough to compare the caliber of their graduates when compared to those of PCOM or make statements about them matching up equally.

im not saying that PCOM grads dont match at great places..obviously they have some of the best matches for any DO school out there. but lets be serious here..a family med match at hopkins and psych match at harvard arent really the toughest allo spots to get out there.

 

[Dr JPH]

if uve never seen a match list from penn or Jeff, then it might be tough to compare the caliber of their graduates when compared to those of PCOM or make statements about them matching up equally.

im not saying that PCOM grads dont match at great places..obviously they have some of the best matches for any DO school out there. but lets be serious here..a family med match at hopkins and psych match at harvard arent really the toughest allo spots to get out there.

So youre saying the match list is the determination of quality?

A school that sends more students in a given year into IM or FP is of lesser quality?

You should know as well as I that any given year can see the number of people matching into certain specialties vary tremendously. At PCOM this year there were 25% more people going into IM than there were last year while surgery was down more than 10%. Anesthesia was up and EMED was down.

If the location of the sites isnt impressive in your mind and the percentage into specialty, then what is it?

Ive rotated with Penn, Jeff, Temple and Drexel students. Ive also worked with residents from those programs as well.

Were they competent, well prepared and smart? Absolutely.

Better than me or my fellow PCOMers? No. At least not as a collective group simply because they went to an MD school.

It is with interaction with the people from these places that I draw my conclusions...not from looking at a set of numbers, match results and random names on a page. I would think that more information could be gathered from rounding and rotating with other people than can be learned based on where they end up for residency.

 

[pennmed07]

It is with interaction with the people from these places that I draw my conclusions...not from looking at a set of numbers, match results and random names on a page. I would think that more information could be gathered from rounding and rotating with other people than can be learned based on where they end up for residency.

yes, but you are neither a residency director nor an attending. do you really believe you have enough know-how to assess the competency of a medical student in clinical practice? of course matchlists fluctuate yr to yr and there are all sorts of variables that come into play (self selection, location, interest in particular specialty) but there is something to be said of a list that has students matching into very competitive specialties at renowned programs. this is not debatable. they matched at these programs bc they had great scores but also telling letters of recommendation from experienced and renowned doctors who know what being a competent and accomplished student truly means. this speaks to rigorous/comprehensive training offered by that particular medical school and affiliated hospitals. To lay down a blanket statement of "training is of equal caliber at every program in Philadelphia" is a little naive

 

[Animus]

yes, but you are neither a residency director nor an attending. do you really believe you have enough know-how to assess the competency of a medical student in clinical practice? of course matchlists fluctuate yr to yr and there are all sorts of variables that come into play (self selection, location, interest in particular specialty) but there is something to be said of a list that has students matching into very competitive specialties at renowned programs. this is not debatable. they matched at these programs bc they had great scores but also telling letters of recommendation from experienced and renowned doctors who know what being a competent and accomplished student truly means. this speaks to rigorous/comprehensive training offered by that particular medical school and affiliated hospitals. To lay down a blanket statement of "training is of equal caliber at every program in Philadelphia" is a little naive

He is talking from actual experience. I for one believe that real experience means a lot more than the recommendation of a couple doctors, no matter how "renown" they are. First of all these doctors only see the students who rotate through with them, if they saw everyone then maybe they could pick the best, but they do not. Secondly, there are many great people who do favors for people, say friends or colleagues. So to say someone got a reccomendation can simply mean they knew someone. Also JP is nothing but honest all the time, much more often than people with 4 posts...so I know if he felt he was under educated he would feel no regret in admitting it openly.

 

[Dr JPH]

yes, but you are neither a residency director nor an attending. do you really believe you have enough know-how to assess the competency of a medical student in clinical practice? of course matchlists fluctuate yr to yr and there are all sorts of variables that come into play (self selection, location, interest in particular specialty) but there is something to be said of a list that has students matching into very competitive specialties at renowned programs. this is not debatable. they matched at these programs bc they had great scores but also telling letters of recommendation from experienced and renowned doctors who know what being a competent and accomplished student truly means. this speaks to rigorous/comprehensive training offered by that particular medical school and affiliated hospitals. To lay down a blanket statement of "training is of equal caliber at every program in Philadelphia" is a little naive

I had this great response typed up. After reading it through I realized it wouldnt be smart to say some of the things I had written. I will be working intimately with many great Philly trained MDs for the next few years (perhaps many years) in the best hospitals in the city and throughout the northeast.

I would rather just let the above poster be seen for what he really is. A troll looking for a fight.

I have had nothing but positive things to say about all the Philly MD students I have worked with. Top quality students who were easy going, out going and humble. The above poster is an anomaly and we will leave it at that.

Besides...he is only jealous because his girlfriend sees me 3 times a week for 'OMM'

 

[Taty]

I had this great response typed up. After reading it through I realized it wouldnt be smart to say some of the things I had written. I will be working intimately with many great Philly trained MDs for the next few years (perhaps many years) in the best hospitals in the city and throughout the northeast.

I would rather just let the above poster be seen for what he really is. A troll looking for a fight.

I have had nothing but positive things to say about all the Philly MD students I have worked with. Top quality students who were easy going, out going and humble. The above poster is an anomaly and we will leave it at that.

Besides...he is only jealous because his girlfriend sees me 3 times a week for 'OMM'

JP, I dont think that you should waste your time time to explain things to the pennmed07 he/she'll never get it...

I am learning how to ignore ignorant people there are so many other things to get upset about.

 

[Dr JPH]

JP, I dont think that you should waste your time time to explain things to the pennmed07 he/she'll never get it...

I am learning how to ignore ignorant people there are so many other things to get upset about.

Yeah, it doesnt bother me.

Ive worked with enough MD students, interns and residents to know how I am treated and how I stack up. Ive never felt second rate or under-prepared at all. And Ive never been treated as such.

Sometimes you just get those people who think they are better than you simply because of their name, their school, their money or their title. I feel sorry for this guy that he has his head so far up his own ass that he is likely going to miss some great opportunities. And I tell you what, that kind of attitude always has a way of coming back to hurt you. I hope he realizes that now.

If there is one thing you need in life to become a successful physician its humility.

 

[joedo]

I've never seen the match list from Penn or Jeff.

You sound like you have seen all 3 match lists, so how would you explain it?

A sampling of places where 2007 PCOM grads are currently training:

Penn State Hershey
Newark Beth Israel
Temple
Jeff/duPont Childrens
U Maryland
St Christophers
Emory
Hopkins
Harvard
Jefferson
Christiana
UMass
UCONN
Wake Forest
Cleveland Clinic

And of course PCOM...the only general surgery program in Philadelphia with a laparoscopic surgical simulator.

Side note: they also have a simulator at Hahnemann..

 

[Dr JPH]

Side note: they also have a simulator at Hahnemann..

Someone told me that but another person said it was the "look down" type and not the fully integrated computer module.

Either way its good to see the Philly MD schools finally catching up with PCOM.

 

[Taty]

Yeah, it doesnt bother me.

Ive worked with enough MD students, interns and residents to know how I am treated and how I stack up. Ive never felt second rate or under-prepared at all. And Ive never been treated as such.

Sometimes you just get those people who think they are better than you simply because of their name, their school, their money or their title. I feel sorry for this guy that he has his head so far up his own ass that he is likely going to miss some great opportunities. And I tell you what, that kind of attitude always has a way of coming back to hurt you. I hope he realizes that now.

If there is one thing you need in life to become a successful physician its humility.

I think that what kind of doc person makes depends mostly from the person and not from where person graduates from...person can be a bad doc and harvard graduate..

JP, did you start your residency already?

 

[Dr JPH]

JP, did you start your residency already?

One month into internship already.

BTW I just heard today from a D.O. Trauma Surgeon at UPENN that Penn Med JUST got a lap simulator. A little lag behind their D.O. neighbors but better late than never.

 

[group_theory]

PCOM was the first medical school in the state of Pennsylvania (beating Penn, Penn State, Temple, Jefferson, Drexel, Pittsburgh, and LECOM) to have a robotic human simulator (Stan-the-Man). In fact, Temple and Penn had to recruit Simulator Techs from PCOM.

PCOM is the first school in Philly to have an advance lap similator. It only makes sense that with time other schools will follow.

Do you see a trend?

 

[Dr JPH]

Do you see a trend?

The "primary care focused DO school" is apparently on the forefront of medical education.

 

[pharmdch]

This thread has gone in numerous directions, so forgive me if my comments seem to stray from the present topic.

Numerous DO students and practicing physicians express frustration with the public's lack of awareness, and the constant need to explain/qualify their credentials. It is not my intention to marginalize your concern, but I feel many of you probably stress too much over this.

If you do not wish to explain what a DO is, there is a simple solution...

Rx Pad:
Dr. John Doe (as opposed to John Doe, D.O.)
Board Certified [Endocrinologist]

Lab Coat:
Dr. J. Doe

Practice Sign:
Dr. John Doe
[Endocrinology]

No one will be the wiser; they will simply assume that you're an MD. I'm not suggesting that you should be ashamed to be a DO, mind you. You should be proud to be a physician regardless of the degree earned. This is just a suggestion to avoid the headache of tedious conversations to educate the patient that you are, in fact, a fully qualified doctor. I've seen numerous prescriptions where this tactic has been utilized. So, basically, don't go out of your way to advertise your degree, and your patients and colleagues will simply see you as a physician, rather than a DO.

 

[MaximusD]

This thread has gone in numerous directions, so forgive me if my comments seem to stray from the present topic.

Numerous DO students and practicing physicians express frustration with the public's lack of awareness, and the constant need to explain/qualify their credentials. It is not my intention to marginalize your concern, but I feel many of you probably stress too much over this.

If you do not wish to explain what a DO is, there is a simple solution...

Rx Pad:
Dr. John Doe (as opposed to John Doe, D.O.)
Board Certified [Endocrinologist]

Lab Coat:
Dr. J. Doe

Practice Sign:
Dr. John Doe
[Endocrinology]

No one will be the wiser; they will simply assume that you're an MD. I'm not suggesting that you should be ashamed to be a DO, mind you. You should be proud to be a physician regardless of the degree earned. This is just a suggestion to avoid the headache of tedious conversations to educate the patient that you are, in fact, a fully qualified doctor. I've seen numerous prescriptions where this tactic has been utilized. So, basically, don't go out of your way to advertise your degree, and your patients and colleagues will simply see you as a physician, rather than a DO.

There are laws in certain states that mandate that osteopathic physicians or surgeons advertise with the "osteopathic" nomenclature. Not sure which ones but I'm sure a google search would yield helpful results.

ie Dr. Doogie, DO Osteopathic Physician

 

[Taty]

One month into internship already.

QUOTE]

JP, I am so jealous...but in a good way u know that I am #1 fan of yours here and I can only wish u all the best

 

[Dr JPH]

JP, I am so jealous...but in a good way u know that I am #1 fan of yours here and I can only wish u all the best

My groupies.

If you need something let me know.

 

[homeboy]

I think people are forgetting that no-one gives a crap about the DO credential issue other than people in the DO profession...

MDs aren't going to change THEIR title just to accommodate us.

Let's drop the 'MDO' thing...the AMA would take it to court if the AOA changed their title to anything including the letters "MD" unless the AMA somehow absorbed the AOA and took over it's school curriculum, licensing, credentialing and testing regulations.

Changing our title means joining a different profession...efforts should be directed at merging the professions, not something as superfluous as adding an "M" to our title.

 

[Kappy1]

"Separate but equal is unconstitutional." Make one degree for all Physicians. As mentioned above Osteopathic and Allopathic Docs practice medicine the same way 95% of the time. I don't see why there would be a court case if we added the M to the degree title. It is in the degree name and can be used. MD titles are given to physicians who train in US residency programs and attend foreign medical schools. The AMA doesn't control those schools, yet they receive the same title.

 

[homeboy]

"Separate but equal is unconstitutional." Make one degree for all Physicians. As mentioned above Osteopathic and Allopathic Docs practice medicine the same way 95% of the time. I don't see why there would be a court case if we added the M to the degree title. It is in the degree name and can be used. MD titles are given to physicians who train in US residency programs and attend foreign medical schools. The AMA doesn't control those schools, yet they receive the same title.

I understand that; physicians in England don't call themselves MDs (their MD is equivalent to our PhD), they receive a BSBM...or something like that.

The point is, in THIS country, the institution that grants the degree is the AMA. You can't just make some superficial change by adding and M, allowing us to be "Medical Doctors of Osteopathy"...we are "Doctors of Osteopathy" , not "Medical Doctors"...this is a technicality, but it's my whole point: you don't achieve a universal degree by simply changing the initials.

I'm all for having one degree, and I'm on your side, Kappy--my point is that the way to go about it is NOT to simply change the initials / degree, but to go the ROOT and change the PROFESSION: integrate the professions (though it would be more of an absorption being there's so few DOs compared to MDs), not just convert degrees.

 

[Kappy1]

I understand that; physicians in England don't call themselves MDs (their MD is equivalent to our PhD), they receive a BSBM...or something like that.

The point is, in THIS country, the institution that grants the degree is the AMA. You can't just make some superficial change by adding and M, allowing us to be "Medical Doctors of Osteopathy"...we are "Doctors of Osteopathy" , not "Medical Doctors"...this is a technicality, but it's my whole point: you don't achieve a universal degree by simply changing the initials.

I'm all for having one degree, and I'm on your side, Kappy--my point is that the way to go about it is NOT to simply change the initials / degree, but to go the ROOT and change the PROFESSION: integrate the professions (though it would be more of an absorption being there's so few DOs compared to MDs), not just convert degrees.

Then I am on your side as well.

 

[Dr JPH]

Where does this misconception come from that foreign trained physicians are "given" an MD degree upon entering the US?

 

[Kappy1]

Where does this misconception come from that foreign trained physicians are "given" an MD degree upon entering the US?

I didn't mean they are granted an MD the second they step foot into this country. I didn't mean to give that impression. Please, give me some benefit of the doubt that I have some idea of what I am talking about. I have friends and cousin that are currently going/went to Sackler School of Medicine in Israel. When they come/came back here they get an MD after passing step I and II of USMLE's and an English language test. I believe that is the requirement for most foreign students except for ones who need to go through a fifth pathway. I was talking about when they have passed all exams to be licensed in this country they are still granted MD's.

 

[group_theory]

I understand that; physicians in England don't call themselves MDs (their MD is equivalent to our PhD), they receive a BSBM...or something like that.

The point is, in THIS country, the institution that grants the degree is the AMA. You can't just make some superficial change by adding and M, allowing us to be "Medical Doctors of Osteopathy"...we are "Doctors of Osteopathy" , not "Medical Doctors"...this is a technicality, but it's my whole point: you don't achieve a universal degree by simply changing the initials.

I'm all for having one degree, and I'm on your side, Kappy--my point is that the way to go about it is NOT to simply change the initials / degree, but to go the ROOT and change the PROFESSION: integrate the professions (though it would be more of an absorption being there's so few DOs compared to MDs), not just convert degrees.

Mostly agree ... just being nitpicky here

The AMA is a professional organization. For MD schools in US and Canada, it's the Liaison Committee on Medical Education (LCME) that accredits MD schools and they are in no way affliated with the AMA. The US Dept of Education recognize LCME as the only body to accredit MD schools, just as the US DoE recognize the AOA as the only body to accredit DO schools. (the confusion lies because the AOA serves as the accreditation body as well as a professional organization. The AMA is only a professional organization)

Yes, your degree is solely based on the degree granted by the institution that grants your degree. If your school granted a Bachelor of Arts degree in Chemistry, then your degree is a BA (or AB), even if you took more science courses than someone with a BS (or SB). If MIT awarded you a Doctor of Science degree in Chemistry instead of a PhD in Chemistry (even though the requirements are exactly the same), you have a DSc. (or ScD), and not a PhD.

In dentistry, if the school grants a Doctor of Dental Surgery, then the degree is a DDS, even though the coursework and requirements are exactly the same as a DMD (Doctor of Dental Medicine). For dentistry, it's purely based on the school whether it gives a DDS or DMD.

Foreign doctors who have not earned the Doctor of Medicine degree are not granted an MD at any point while the US. Basically what happens is that the state boards and various organizations have looked the other way when it comes to them using "MD" for patient care. So someone with a MBBS (or MBBCh) can use an MD and people will look the other way. In academia, people care and the same MBBS (or MBBCh) cannot use the MD title in academia ... whether it's a Journal Publication, name tag, CV, etc. People in academia are quite stingy when it comes to correct postnominal letters.

Bascially if the state board of medicine, state board of osteopathic medicine, the AOA, the state chapter of the AOA, and local medical societies started not to care if DOs start using MD, then you will have the same situation of DOs using MD title that you see with MBBS people using MDs. But it is highly unlikely in the near future given the resistants by the old guards and even some of the younger members of the profession.

 

[Kappy1]

Mostly agree ... just being nitpicky here

The AMA is a professional organization. For MD schools in US and Canada, it's the Liaison Committee on Medical Education (LCME) that accredits MD schools and they are in no way affliated with the AMA. The US Dept of Education recongize LCME as the only body to accredit MD schools, just as the US DoE recongize the AOA as the only body to accredit DO schools. (the confusion lies because the AOA serves as the accreditation body as well as a professional organization. The AMA is only a professional organization)

Yes, your degree is solely based on the degree granted by the institution that grants your degree. If your school granted a Bachelor of Arts degree in Chemistry, then your degree is a BA (or AB), even if you took more science courses than someone with a BS (or SB). If MIT awarded you a Doctor of Science degree in Chemistry instead of a PhD in Chemistry (even though the requirements are exactly the same), you have a DSc. (or ScD), and not a PhD.

In dentistry, if the school grants a Doctor of Dental Surgery, then the degree is a DDS, even though the coursework and requirements are exactly the same as a DMD (Doctor of Dental Medicine). For dentistry, it's purely based on the school whether it gives a DDS or DMD.

Foreign doctors who have not earned the Doctor of Medicine degree are not granted an MD at any point while the US. Basically what happens is that the state boards and various organizations have looked the other way when it comes to them using "MD" for patient care. So someone with a MBBS (or MBBCh) can use an MD and people will look the other way. In academia, people care and the same MBBS (or MBBCh) cannot use the MD title in academia ... whether it's a Journal Publication, name tag, CV, etc. People in academia are quite stingy when it comes to correct postnominal letters.

Bascially if the state board of medicine, state board of osteopathic medicine, the AOA, the state chapter of the AOA, and local medical societies started not to care if DOs start using MD, then you will have the same situation of DOs using MD title that you see with MBBS people using MDs. But it is highly unlikely in the near future given the resistants by the old guards and even some of the younger members of the profession.

If they get an Doctor of Medicine Degree in a foreign country it will be recognized as an MD here and they can use the MD without a problem. Correct?

 

[Taty]

My groupies.

If you need something let me know.

 

[group_theory]

If they get an Doctor of Medicine Degree in a foreign country it will be recognized as an MD hear and they can use the MD without a problem. Correct?

Mostly yes. If it is an earned degree from a recognized school, they can certainly use it in academia. For patient care ... if they are licensed by the respective state board of medicine, then yes. If not licensed, well ... it varies state by state whether one can use MD while in patient care situation without having a license. Really depends on the state board, and the laws/regulations/court precedent of that particular state

 

[USArmyDoc]

Who cares....I am going to be a DO and I am proud of it. I'll explain it whenever asked. Drop the stupid changing to MDO idea. I would support MD, DO though, but I don't care if it never happens.

 

[toothless rufus]

Who cares....I am going to be a DO and I am proud of it. I'll explain it whenever asked. Drop the stupid changing to MDO idea. I would support MD, DO though, but I don't care if it never happens.

Just do M.D.O, with the "O" the size of the other periods!

 

[abeytt03]

"Separate but equal is unconstitutional." Make one degree for all Physicians. As mentioned above Osteopathic and Allopathic Docs practice medicine the same way 95% of the time. I don't see why there would be a court case if we added the M to the degree title. It is in the degree name and can be used. MD titles are given to physicians who train in US residency programs and attend foreign medical schools. The AMA doesn't control those schools, yet they receive the same title.

So you believe MD schools and DO schools have the exact same curriculum? The answer is they don't. Also, every DO school has the option to apply for allopathic accreditation. If they choose not to or are not chosen then they are not MD schools. The reason new MD schools open infrequently is due to the rigorous standards and procedures for the LCME accreditation. This is the way it should remain to ensure our country produces highly qualified physicians.

Would you want all MD degrees to say the same school-meaning, just so things should be equal? Should all MBA's say Wharton? No, because the degrees symbolize different levels of achievement.

 

[Dr JPH]

So you believe MD schools and DO schools have the exact same curriculum? The answer is they don't.

You sure about that?

I would disagree.

In fact, most DO schools have more classroom hours during the first 2 years than MD schools.

If you want to be taken seriously and provide an argument for your opinion at least have your facts straight first.

 

[abeytt03]

You sure about that?

I would disagree.

In fact, most DO schools have more classroom hours during the first 2 years than MD schools.

If you want to be taken seriously and provide an argument for your opinion at least have your facts straight first.

You have proven my point. That means they don't have the same curriculum!!!!!!!!!!!!!

 

[DrMom]

You have proven my point. That means they don't have the same curriculum!!!!!!!!!!!!!

If you want to think that all of the same coursework plus an additional class in OMM per semester isn't the same curriculum as MD schools, go right ahead.

 

[Dr JPH]

You have proven my point. That means they don't have the same curriculum!!!!!!!!!!!!!

So youre point was to highlight the fact that the osteopathic medical curriculum contains more course hours (traditional medical curriculum plus additional OMM hours) and therefore more education than the allopathic medical curriculum?

Cool. I agree. Sorry for my comments.

 

[abeytt03]

So youre point was to highlight the fact that the osteopathic medical curriculum contains more course hours (traditional medical curriculum plus additional OMM hours) and therefore more education than the allopathic medical curriculum?

Cool. I agree. Sorry for my comments.

No, the point was to highlight that they are not the same. My overall point, however, was to respond to the original question-"Should DO become MD (or vice versa)." Due to the differences (accreditation, curriculum, emphasis, student body, etc.) there should be a distinction in title. You can choose to ignore these differences, but most (and especially those with any influence) do not ignore them. They agree with my assesment and promote the status quo. Additionally, if you do not appreciate and agree to the ("slight") differences in curriculum etc., then why go to DO school vs MD? please respond to the last question