Confused future med student

[PHammer]

Hi all,
I'm in my 4th year of Kinesiology at the University of Calgary, and after doing alot of reading the past few weeks, i've gotten myself all confuzzled.

Up until a month or so ago, I was on track to start an education in chiropractic this coming fall, but for a number of reasons i've decided against that in favour of pursuing a traditional MD degree. I've not yet taken the MCAT, but i'm on track to do so this coming cycle. My GPA is currently ~3.5, with a good possibility of it being ~3.6 by year's end. I'm thinking of remaining at U of C for one more year to take a few more required classes (math, genetics, english, physics) while volunteering to bolster my application.

My questions for the Gurus of this forum:
- I know that my GPA is slightly low for most canadian schools, do you have any tips that will make me a more competitive candidate?
- Where in the states should I consider as possibilities?
- If I went to an american school, is it plausible to get a Canadian residency?
- How about how a Big 4 caribbean school - canadian residency?
- What about DO? is this a viable route for getting a canadian residency?

Thanks very much for any help you can offer!

Paul

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[mac_kin]

Hi all,
I'm in my 4th year of Kinesiology at the University of Calgary, and after doing alot of reading the past few weeks, i've gotten myself all confuzzled.

Up until a month or so ago, I was on track to start an education in chiropractic this coming fall, but for a number of reasons i've decided against that in favour of pursuing a traditional MD degree. I've not yet taken the MCAT, but i'm on track to do so this coming cycle. My GPA is currently ~3.5, with a good possibility of it being ~3.6 by year's end. I'm thinking of remaining at U of C for one more year to take a few more required classes (math, genetics, english, physics) while volunteering to bolster my application.

My questions for the Gurus of this forum:
- I know that my GPA is slightly low for most canadian schools, do you have any tips that will make me a more competitive candidate?
- Where in the states should I consider as possibilities?
- If I went to an american school, is it plausible to get a Canadian residency?
- How about how a Big 4 caribbean school - canadian residency?
- What about DO? is this a viable route for getting a canadian residency?

Thanks very much for any help you can offer!

Paul

I don't want to shock or scare you but I applied to 4 ontario schools last year (Toronto, Western, McMaster, Queen's) with a 3.7 and didn't make the GPA cutoffs anywhere. I don't know what the Calgary cut-offs are. But my advice to you (and me) is to either go back for 5th year and get a 3.9 average or higher, or go to grad school and work your butt off, and apply again in 2 years.

 

[jochi1543]

I don't want to shock or scare you but I applied to 4 ontario schools last year (Toronto, Western, McMaster, Queen's) with a 3.7 and didn't make the GPA cutoffs anywhere. I don't know what the Calgary cut-offs are. But my advice to you (and me) is to either go back for 5th year and get a 3.9 average or higher, or go to grad school and work your butt off, and apply again in 2 years.

With a good MCAT (30+) and good ECs, he should have a reasonable chance at Calgary or Alberta. They don't have strict cut-offs, and Calgary in particular looks beyond just stats.

Also, a 3.6 cumulative doesn't disqualify you from many schools. I have a GPA lower than you do and I DO make the Western cut-offs and am within 0.02 of last year's Queen's cutoffs (hoping they go down this year!). It's just a matter of your individual year GPA's. You could have a 2.0 and get into Western as long as you have 2 years at 3.7+. Hitting all 4 MCAT cut-offs is the trick. Moreover, a 3.6 GPA, if the OP took a full courseload, may get up to 3.8 with the U of T's weighting formula, and it would be higher at Alberta, too, since they drop your lowest year if you've done 4 years of undergrad.

So, basically, do well on your MCAT and continue improving your GPA, and you should have a reasonable chance at admission.

 

[Jectin]

I don't want to shock or scare you but I applied to 4 ontario schools last year (Toronto, Western, McMaster, Queen's) with a 3.7 and didn't make the GPA cutoffs anywhere. I don't know what the Calgary cut-offs are. But my advice to you (and me) is to either go back for 5th year and get a 3.9 average or higher, or go to grad school and work your butt off, and apply again in 2 years.

Its not that bad actually. Mac_kin probably made the cutoffs everywhere but for some reason or other was not selected for interview. This is likely due to the MCAT cuts of some schools. I had a cGPA under yours but was subsequently interviewed and accepted to an Ontario medical school. It is possible, just work hard in preparing for the MCAT and use a 5th year if necessary to make certain school cuts.

 

[mac_kin]

Its not that bad actually. Mac_kin probably made the cutoffs everywhere but for some reason or other was not selected for interview. This is likely due to the MCAT cuts of some schools. I had a cGPA under yours but was subsequently interviewed and accepted to an Ontario medical school. It is possible, just work hard in preparing for the MCAT and use a 5th year if necessary to make certain school cuts.

If you don't mind sharing can you please tell me what your GPA score was and where you got accepted. Just out of curiosity. thanks!

 

[jochi1543]

Its not that bad actually. Mac_kin probably made the cutoffs everywhere but for some reason or other was not selected for interview. This is likely due to the MCAT cuts of some schools. I had a cGPA under yours but was subsequently interviewed and accepted to an Ontario medical school. It is possible, just work hard in preparing for the MCAT and use a 5th year if necessary to make certain school cuts.

Yeah, Western requires a 3.7 in 2 years (doesn't care about anything else) and Queen's accepts a cumulative of 3.68, so a 3.7 definitely wouldn't be the reason for rejection. Toronto also has a cut-off of 3.6 (and that's weighted), so 3.7 makes the cutoff, as well. McMaster doesn't have cutoffs, although a higher GPA helps. I think the problem was likely with the MCAT (for schools outside McMaster) or with other aspects of the applications, such as ECs or essays.

 

[mac_kin]

Yeah, Western requires a 3.7 in 2 years (doesn't care about anything else) and Queen's accepts a cumulative of 3.68, so a 3.7 definitely wouldn't be the reason for rejection. Toronto also has a cut-off of 3.6 (and that's weighted), so 3.7 makes the cutoff, as well. McMaster doesn't have cutoffs, although a higher GPA helps. I think the problem was likely with the MCAT (for schools outside McMaster) or with other aspects of the applications, such as ECs or essays.

The cutoffs posted on the school websites are not valid though. They are just projected averages...basically what they expect. Last year was really difficult because of the double cohort. For instance at Queen's, there were like 2500 applicants for 100 spots. And at Mac it was about 5000 applicants for 148 spots. Remember a few seats are reserved for international students. A few seats are also reserved for Natives etc. So in the end its like 140/5000 or 90 out of 2500.

One of my friends just got into Mac med, she had a 3.81 overall GPA. She said that the lowest in her class was around a 3.75.
Similarly at UofT (top school in Canada), I was told you had no chance of starting this fall if you didn't have a 3.8. And I believe it, strictly on the numbers of classmates from undergrad (including myself) who I think had pretty amazing GPA's and were rejected this year.

When you know of people 3.73s etc who didn't make interviews because of not making the cutoffs, you know its a competitive year.

I think first year profs and upper year students and TAs need to do a better job of telling people that the field is getting more competitive each year, and even 1 bad year of 'getting to know yourself' or 'adjusting' can screw you up in the end. I know I tell my first year students (I TA a biology course), to really work hard from the get go. Even if they don't end up in medicine, it's not much easier for law, pharma, dentistry, or PT/OT.

Also, the rejection letter tells you why you got rejected. It says either you didn't make the cutoff or that your application is "not being considered".
When it simply states "we regret to inform you that your application was not accepted because you did not make the interview cutoff", you know that your 3.7 was not good enough.

 

[PHammer]

Thanks for the info/support guys, i'm working on getting some interesting volunteer positions, and i'm working my behind off at school.

I've spoken with a few u of c medicine students, there are people who got in with undergrad GPAs as low as 3.2, so obviously other factors are just as or more important than GPA these days.

 

[freyja]

Thanks for the info/support guys, i'm working on getting some interesting volunteer positions, and i'm working my behind off at school.

I've spoken with a few u of c medicine students, there are people who got in with undergrad GPAs as low as 3.2, so obviously other factors are just as or more important than GPA these days.

U of C's cut off for provincial residents is lower than OOP's, maybe that's one of the reasons they got in with a 3.2.

 

[jochi1543]

U of C's cut off for provincial residents is lower than OOP's, maybe that's one of the reasons they got in with a 3.2.

It sounds like the OP is an Alberta resident, though.

 

[SMRT]

Some of your statements here are a bit misleading.

One of my friends just got into Mac med, she had a 3.81 overall GPA. She said that the lowest in her class was around a 3.75.
Similarly at UofT (top school in Canada), I was told you had no chance of starting this fall if you didn't have a 3.8. And I believe it, strictly on the numbers of classmates from undergrad (including myself) who I think had pretty amazing GPA's and were rejected this year.

When you know of people 3.73s etc who didn't make interviews because of not making the cutoffs, you know its a competitive year.

The average GPA for this year entering class at UofT was 3.9(http://www.facmed.utoronto.ca/programs/md/admissions/0809/stats.htm) which I admit is quite intimidating. But keep in mind that most people qualify for UofT's weighting formula which can significantly increase your GPA. So I don't think it's fair to say that without a 3.8 that you don't have a chance.

As well, many schools (UofT, Mac, Ottawa, UBC...) grant interviews based on an evaluation of your whole application, not just your MCAT and GPA. So if people with strong GPAs are not receiving interviews, it's likely not because of their marks, it's because of another aspect of their application.

Also, the rejection letter tells you why you got rejected. It says either you didn't make the cutoff or that your application is "not being considered".
When it simply states "we regret to inform you that your application was not accepted because you did not make the interview cutoff", you know that your 3.7 was not good enough.

I'm not sure which schools you are referring to here, but I am quite sure that this is not the case for UofT. UofT does not have hard cut-offs and they do a full file review of everyone whose GPA and MCAT are remotely competitive. Even after the file reviews are scored it is still not a hard cutoff and they are pretty flexible with the number of interviews they grant.

I guess I am just trying to remind you that at some schools your GPA is not the be all and end all. If you have a competitive GPA and are not receiving interviews, then it is probably due to another aspect of your application.

 

[Aviara]

I don't want to shock or scare you but I applied to 4 ontario schools last year (Toronto, Western, McMaster, Queen's) with a 3.7 and didn't make the GPA cutoffs anywhere. I don't know what the Calgary cut-offs are. But my advice to you (and me) is to either go back for 5th year and get a 3.9 average or higher, or go to grad school and work your butt off, and apply again in 2 years.

Queen's cut-off last year was 3.68 for cGPA and 3.78 for the last two years. So your statement is off unless you are saying that your last two years GPA was about 3.7 and not 3.7 after rounding up. It's not just about GPA, because if that was the case, then I would never have gotten in. My academic history is such: UBC x 2 years = about 2.7 avg GPA for each year, where I even failed a course (got 18% overall due to some personal issues). Went to UT at Mississauga x 3 years, GPA's for each year was 3.5, 3.9 and 3.8, respectively. Went to UofC for 1-year course-based masters, GPA = 3.7. I applied to Toronto, UofA, UofC, UBC and Queens. Got interviews at the last three schools, got accepted to Queens. My MCAT was good, 35Q, and I had a decent amount (but not tons) of extraciricular activities. Goes to show that even if you mess up, there's always hope for you.

 

[ataraxia]

Hi Aviara,

if you dont mind could u elaborate more as to the type/amount of extracurriculars u had when u got into med sch? My situation is alot like yours; messed up my first two years at 3.1 sci GPA. Thanks in advance.

Queen's cut-off last year was 3.68 for cGPA and 3.78 for the last two years. So your statement is off unless you are saying that your last two years GPA was about 3.7 and not 3.7 after rounding up. It's not just about GPA, because if that was the case, then I would never have gotten in. My academic history is such: UBC x 2 years = about 2.7 avg GPA for each year, where I even failed a course (got 18% overall due to some personal issues). Went to UT at Mississauga x 3 years, GPA's for each year was 3.5, 3.9 and 3.8, respectively. Went to UofC for 1-year course-based masters, GPA = 3.7. I applied to Toronto, UofA, UofC, UBC and Queens. Got interviews at the last three schools, got accepted to Queens. My MCAT was good, 35Q, and I had a decent amount (but not tons) of extraciricular activities. Goes to show that even if you mess up, there's always hope for you.

 

[Aviara]

Hi Aviara,

if you dont mind could u elaborate more as to the type/amount of extracurriculars u had when u got into med sch? My situation is alot like yours; messed up my first two years at 3.1 sci GPA. Thanks in advance.

Hey Ataraxia,

My list covered the major items from 1997 to Oct 2006 (appliation deadline), since the application process said to go back to age 16 and I only used about 60%% of total number you could list. 1) worked partime, from 1997 to 2001, two jobs, each about 2 years, as well as working summers, all were retail jobs 2) Worked in a lab part-time doing misc stuff, including helping out to insect 3) volunteered at the city's science scentre (about 100 hours by application, only started volunteering in Feb '06) 4) Volleyball leagues in the city (also only started Jan '06) 5) Worked for about 1 year as a clinical ressearch coordinator at the city's cancer centre 6) Misc few items from highschool including choir, lead role in drama production and sports 7) I also put in the practicum project that I did for my masters since it was paid and involved designing and writing a protocol for a clinical trial of radiotherapy treatment in lung cancer.

Those were the main things. I probably also put in a few random things just so the list took up more than 50% of the allowable space so it wouldn't look like I did nothing. I think it's also important how you relay your experiences/ECs more than how many you have. Hope that helps!

 

[ataraxia]

Wow thanks very much for the reply. U've given me fresh hope =]. One more question though, if you dont mind. Your last two years of undergrad GPA were average 3.85. Wasnt that good enough for several schools which only consider best two years? Or were the 06 ECs the determining factors? Thanks..

Hey Ataraxia,

My list covered the major items from 1997 to Oct 2006 (appliation deadline), since the application process said to go back to age 16 and I only used about 60%% of total number you could list. 1) worked partime, from 1997 to 2001, two jobs, each about 2 years, as well as working summers, all were retail jobs 2) Worked in a lab part-time doing misc stuff, including helping out to insect 3) volunteered at the city's science scentre (about 100 hours by application, only started volunteering in Feb '06) 4) Volleyball leagues in the city (also only started Jan '06) 5) Worked for about 1 year as a clinical ressearch coordinator at the city's cancer centre 6) Misc few items from highschool including choir, lead role in drama production and sports 7) I also put in the practicum project that I did for my masters since it was paid and involved designing and writing a protocol for a clinical trial of radiotherapy treatment in lung cancer.

Those were the main things. I probably also put in a few random things just so the list took up more than 50% of the allowable space so it wouldn't look like I did nothing. I think it's also important how you relay your experiences/ECs more than how many you have. Hope that helps!

 

[Aviara]

Wow thanks very much for the reply. U've given me fresh hope =]. One more question though, if you dont mind. Your last two years of undergrad GPA were average 3.85. Wasnt that good enough for several schools which only consider best two years? Or were the 06 ECs the determining factors? Thanks..

I only applied to Queens and UofT in Ontario, and then UBC, UofC and UofA as those where the only schools I was interested in.

Edit: I didn't apply to Western because I didn't think my MCAT essay mark would be good enough and had never looked into Ottawa, and thought that MacMaster had too many applicants for me to be competitive

2nd Edit: I got interviews at UBC, UofC and Queens

 

[ataraxia]

hmm? thanks very much for your reply, but i actually meant why couldnt u apply right after your undergrad... Sorry for the vague-ness =D

I only applied to Queens and UofT in Ontario, and then UBC, UofC and UofA as those where the only schools I was interested in.

Edit: I didn't apply to Western because I didn't think my MCAT essay mark would be good enough and had never looked into Ottawa, and thought that MacMaster had too many applicants for me to be competitive

2nd Edit: I got interviews at UBC, UofC and Queens

 

[Aviara]

hmm? thanks very much for your reply, but i actually meant why couldnt u apply right after your undergrad... Sorry for the vague-ness =D

I applied during my last year of undergrad (so that year's gpa wouldn't have counted) and got rejected pre-interview. I think it was a number of factors - not very many ECs, low unergrad marks and low MCAT essay mark (my first MCAT was also 36M). After the rejections, I honestly thought, like you, that my low marks in my first two years of undergrad would prevent me from ever getting into a med school in Canada so I decided not to pursue it anymore. I thought I should try to establish myself in another field, hence going on to do my masters. It wasn't till I was doing my practicum for my masters and I started talking to some of the doctors at the cancer centre that I really started thinking about med again. They really encouraged me to apply again and so I re-wrote the MCAT, put in a ton of hours at the volunteer and took up volleyball to beef up my ECs.

 

[ataraxia]

ah i see. Well, thanks very much for sharing.. hopefully i can emulate you in future. =] hmm.. could i ask one last qn? im guessing u took ur prereqs in UBC and didnt do well on those, much like i've taken some of my prereqs in the States. What is the best way to pull up this particular GPA? i was wondering since im changing systems if i might be able to retake the prereqs, or am i stuck with what ive got? Thanks again for all your help

I applied during my last year of undergrad (so that year's gpa wouldn't have counted) and got rejected pre-interview. I think it was a number of factors - not very many ECs, low unergrad marks and low MCAT essay mark (my first MCAT was also 36M). After the rejections, I honestly thought, like you, that my low marks in my first two years of undergrad would prevent me from ever getting into a med school in Canada so I decided not to pursue it anymore. I thought I should try to establish myself in another field, hence going on to do my masters. It wasn't till I was doing my practicum for my masters and I started talking to some of the doctors at the cancer centre that I really started thinking about med again. They really encouraged me to apply again and so I re-wrote the MCAT, put in a ton of hours at the volunteer and took up volleyball to beef up my ECs.

 

[Aviara]

ah i see. Well, thanks very much for sharing.. hopefully i can emulate you in future. =] hmm.. could i ask one last qn? im guessing u took ur prereqs in UBC and didnt do well on those, much like i've taken some of my prereqs in the States. What is the best way to pull up this particular GPA? i was wondering since im changing systems if i might be able to retake the prereqs, or am i stuck with what ive got? Thanks again for all your help

Unfortunately, I think that if the marks transfer over, you're pretty much stuck with them. You just have to look at all the available schools and see which ones are more forgiving of pre-req marks. UofA, for example, when I was applying, had this system where if you took a higher level of one of the pre-reqs (i.e. a Bio201 vs. a Bio101) and got a better grade in the higher level course, they would take that grade as one of the pre-req marks. Or look at schools that don't have pre-reqs requirements, such as UofC, and Queens, both of which may not take your earlier years into account.

 

[Staryy]

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