College Decisions

[efle]

No, it's still just the eight schools that make up an athletic conference. If they ever stopped participating in athletic events as such, then what you said would be true. They are top schools, but being a good school doesn't make you an Ivy, being in the athletic conference does.

The athletic conference is already not the relevant meaning. Just look at the google definition for Ivy League

I am only applying to public medical schools.

Good to know. Doesn't make you any less wrong when you stated "It dosent matter where you do your undergrad." It doesn't matter for you but likely for OP and certainly for the majority of applicants who apply to a mix of public and private schools, it does matter for the latter.

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[PREDOCSIMP]

The athletic conference is already not the relevant meaning. Just look at the google definition for Ivy League


Good to know. Doesn't make you any less wrong when you stated "It dosent matter where you do your undergrad." It doesn't matter for you but likely for OP and certainly for the majority of applicants who apply to a mix of public and private schools, it does matter for the latter.

I disagree.

 

[efle]

I disagree.

With what? The google definition or private schools reporting that undergrad selectivity is of highest importance?

 

[22031 Alum]

Back to the topic at hand, I really think the cheapest school where one can excel is the way to go for undergrad. As much as we'd all like to justify our expensive top-tier private educations, and while it does feel nice to feel superior, you eventually come to see that someone who excels, will excel no matter where they go. Might as well end up with less debt.

I don't have many regrets in life but one is going to a top-tier undergrad that lacked major sports. Pre-meds love to talk about networking opportunities and alumni connections, and outside the eight schools in a certain athletic conference (and not even all of those), I've not seen anything like the bonds that big sports programs provide.

 

[efle]

Back to the topic at hand, I really think the cheapest school where one can excel is the way to go for undergrad. As much as we'd all like to justify our expensive top-tier private educations, and while it does feel nice to feel superior, you eventually come to see that someone who excels, will excel no matter where they go. Might as well end up with less debt.

I don't have many regrets in life but one is going to a top-tier undergrad that lacked major sports. Pre-meds love to talk about networking opportunities and alumni connections, and outside the eight schools in a certain athletic conference (and not even all of those), I've not seen anything like the bonds that big sports programs provide.

Counterpoint: financial aid at top schools is often the most generous (for me and many of my middle class friends in high school Top 20s were cheaper packages than UCs) and while the best may always be standouts wherever they go, being a standout at a school full of standouts demonstrates something not otherwise possible to show.

Are you saying sports fandom or actually being on a team? I've got to give frats the prize for bonding personally

 

[22031 Alum]

Counterpoint: financial aid at top schools is often the most generous (for me and many of my middle class friends in high school Top 20s were cheaper packages than UCs) and while the best may always be standouts wherever they go, being a standout at a school full of standouts demonstrates something not otherwise possible to show.

Are you saying sports fandom or actually being on a team? I've got to give frats the prize for bonding personally

You don't have to tell me that, I left my private undergrad a few thousand dollars in the black. Those kinds of scholarships aren't widely available though, whereas a lot of state schools can be very good financial decisions once you hit a certain test score. Unfortunately as a CA resident, your flagship state schools aren't making many lists of good financial deals. But for many people living in other states, this is a more viable option than it was for you and your friends.

And I'm talking about sports fandom. As a female, fraternity bonds don't really matter for me. But I have personally seen UCLA's eight-clap, a yell of "War Eagle!!" and the like open doors both literal and figurative.

 

[efle]

You don't have to tell me that, I left my private undergrad a few thousand dollars in the black. Those kinds of scholarships aren't widely available though, whereas a lot of state schools can be very good financial decisions once you hit a certain test score. Unfortunately as a CA resident, your flagship state schools aren't making many lists of good financial deals. But for many people living in other states, this is a more viable option than it was for you and your friends.

And I'm talking about sports fandom. As a female, fraternity bonds don't really matter for me. But I have personally seen UCLA's eight-clap, a yell of "War Eagle!!" and the like open doors both literal and figurative.

Wow you got a sweet deal. My sis took something like that where she gets paid to attend, but at a pretty unknown LAC. She doesn't like it there for lack of many hardcore academically driven students, something else to consider when looking at schools. For my bro who is very into collegiate sports I think the perfect setup would be like you're saying with the big state sports experience but hopefully also an honors college for more intensely academic classes

 

[22031 Alum]

Wow you got a sweet deal. My sis took something like that where she gets paid to attend, but at a pretty unknown LAC. She doesn't like it there for lack of many hardcore academically driven students, something else to consider when looking at schools. For my bro who is very into collegiate sports I think the perfect setup would be like you're saying with the big state sports experience but hopefully also an honors college for more intensely academic classes

I really think that is ideal, and encourage it to everyone. I got my butt kicked in med school by my fair share of state school honors kids, and would find it hard to stomach not just ending up in the same place and doing worse, but having only a ton of debt to show for it.

 

[PREDOCSIMP]

Back to the topic at hand, I really think the cheapest school where one can excel is the way to go for undergrad. As much as we'd all like to justify our expensive top-tier private educations, and while it does feel nice to feel superior, you eventually come to see that someone who excels, will excel no matter where they go. Might as well end up with less debt.

I don't have many regrets in life but one is going to a top-tier undergrad that lacked major sports. Pre-meds love to talk about networking opportunities and alumni connections, and outside the eight schools in a certain athletic conference (and not even all of those), I've not seen anything like the bonds that big sports programs provide.

Well, if you can afford it, then go for it.
Most peoples stats are okay to get it, but will receive no financial aid(out of state) unless I am wrong. I was offered zero financial aid to the school I applied to.

 

[efle]

Well, if you can afford it, then go for it.
Most peoples stats are okay to get it, but will receive no financial aid(out of state) unless I am wrong. I was offered zero financial aid to the school I applied to.

All but one of the Top 20 are need-blind and use financial aid to meet all demonstrated need, rather than awarding for merit (there are sometimes merit scholarships you can apply separately for). If you were accepted and offered no aid it means your family appeared wealthy enough to entirely cover your cost.

 

[PREDOCSIMP]

All but one of the Top 20 are need-blind and use financial aid to meet all demonstrated need, rather than awarding for merit (there are sometimes merit scholarships you can apply separately for). If you were accepted and offered no aid it means your family appeared wealthy enough to entirely cover your cost.

That was the problem. Yea, their merit scholarships were way too competitive. I was a barely made it kind of guy anyways.

 

[efle]

That was the problem. Yea, their merit scholarships were way too competitive. I was a barely made it kind of guy anyways.

an excellent problem to have...

 

[PREDOCSIMP]

an excellent problem to have...

Not really, we have a lot of children. Therefore, money is always tight. I mean if it was a family of 1 kid, it would be fine. But we have 7.

 

[efle]

Not really, we have a lot of children. Therefore, money is always tight. I mean if it was a family of 1 kid, it would be fine. But we have 7.

This is declared on the FAFSA. If you were offered zero aid then even with that many kids you appeared plenty wealthy enough

 

[PREDOCSIMP]

This is declared on the FAFSA. If you were offered zero aid then even with that many kids you appeared plenty wealthy enough

It was declared on my FAFSA. It just asked about family size. It gave no other indication or specifics.

 

[efle]

It was declared on my FAFSA. It just asked about family size. It gave no other indication or specifics.

Right...so they knew your family size, incomes, savings, etc...full financial picture of your family...and thought you were quite wealthy and could cover $60k/yr with no demonstrated need for help. Money was not tight for you in any sense of what that means to most people

 

[PREDOCSIMP]

Right...so they knew your family size, incomes, savings, etc...full financial picture of your family...and thought you were quite wealthy and could cover $60k/yr with no demonstrated need for help. Money was not tight for you in any sense of what that means to most people

I think you find debt acceptable. Even if that debt is more than the debt you would accumulate for a medical degree. FOR UNDERGRAD...which is worthless in my mind.

 

[efle]

I think you find debt acceptable. Even if that debt is more than the debt you would accumulate for a medical degree. FOR UNDERGRAD...which is worthless in my mind.

What...? They see your debt info too. They saw you as wealthy enough to pay for it, they didn't expect you to take out 60k/yr in loans...that would be well beyond "demonstrated need".

 

[PREDOCSIMP]

Oh yea, colleges don't care about the students situation after he gets his degree. My dad makes $84,000 a year . I am sure he can just send me $64,675 while paying taxes, bills, and feeding his 7 kids. You don't know anything about the merit scholarships and financial aid.

 

[efle]

Oh yea, colleges don't care about the students situation after he gets his degree. My dad makes $84,000 a year . I am sure he can just send me $64,675 while paying taxes, bills, and feeding his 7 kids. You don't know anything about the merit scholarships and financial aid.

I'm on such aid, I know a lot about it. Plus it is public data; US News published average aid packages and all the schools openly state their policies (need blind admits, fully meet demonstrated need). If your family has a single 84k income, 7 kids, and savings appropriate for that income, no Top 20 would have offered you zero aid.

 

[22031 Alum]

Oh yea, colleges don't care about the students situation after he gets his degree. My dad makes $84,000 a year . I am sure he can just send me $64,675 while paying taxes, bills, and feeding his 7 kids. You don't know anything about the merit scholarships and financial aid.

I'm actually with @efle here... sounds fishy. Now, I'm not saying you'd get a full ride, and your financial aid packages may have included more loans than you or your parents wanted to take on. But you got zero grants?? There are a lot of schools moving toward loan-free packages for people under a certain income level- but I can only speak for the bigger universities like Vanderbilt, not, say, liberal arts colleges like Swarthmore (just an example, they were notoriously bad for aid back in my day).

Edit- I think I fell prey to the SDN fallacy to think that there are tons and tons of people running around who can just get accepted to schools like Vandy or Duke. While I think it's weird that an income of 84K with 7 kids got no grants at a Top 20 -- unless there are massive investments, real estate holdings, or the like left out of the story-- that may not be unheard of at private schools the next tier down. Unfortunately some of those schools are pretty bad when it comes to financial aid- they can't give as many grants so there's a big loan burden. In that case the cheaper state school option is definitely the way to go.

 

[efle]

I'm actually with @efle here... sounds fishy. Now, I'm not saying you'd get a full ride, and your financial aid packages may have included more loans than you or your parents wanted to take on. But you got zero grants?? There are a lot of schools moving toward loan-free packages for people under a certain income level- but I can only speak for the bigger universities like Vanderbilt, not, say, liberal arts colleges like Swarthmore (just an example, they were notoriously bad for aid back in my day).

The more famous LACs give great aid on par with many big universities these days, again sourced from US News data. Vandy offered me a need-based full ride, Wustl need-based full tuition....no way in hell was he offered nothing

 

[22031 Alum]

The more famous LACs give great aid on par with many big universities these days, again sourced from US News data. Vandy offered me a need-based full ride, Wustl need-based full tuition....no way in hell was he offered nothing

See my edit-- we don't know what schools specifically we're talking about. Lots of places still offer primarily loans.

Also the statement "FAFSA asked for no other specifics" makes me suspicious as to what exactly got turned in. Clearly it's been a long time since I filled out any of that stuff, but there are in fact lots of other specifics. Financial aid paperwork can be a bear, and easily messed up. My parents were only able to navigate it because I had an awesome, awesome counselor to help.

 

[efle]

See my edit-- we don't know what schools specifically we're talking about. Lots of places still offer primarily loans.

Also the statement "FAFSA asked for no other specifics" makes me suspicious as to what exactly got turned in. Clearly it's been a long time since I filled out any of that stuff, but there are in fact lots of other specifics. Financial aid paperwork can be a bear, and easily messed up. My parents were only able to navigate it because I had an awesome, awesome counselor to help.

I mean I also applied to lower ranked places like Boston College, Boston University, Brandeis, a few LACs...every single one offered to cover at least half COA in grants. My girlfriend's father is an anesthesiologist probably pulling at least 300k/yr and even she gets a 20k grant.

 

[22031 Alum]

I mean I also applied to lower ranked places like Boston College, Boston University, Brandeis, a few LACs...every single one offered to cover at least half COA in grants. My girlfriend's father is an anesthesiologist probably pulling at least 300k/yr and even she gets a 20k grant.

Yeah but now you're saying that half COA at Brandeis in grants, half in loans, is fine. That's not true for a lot of families.

 

[efle]

Yeah but now you're saying that half COA at Brandeis in grants, half in loans, is fine. That's not true for a lot of families.

Fair enough, so he/she is only a big fat liar if he's talking about one of the top schools / one that pledged to meet demonstrated needs.

Edit: actually I take it back they're still a liar, because they didn't just claim an unaffordable aid package, they claimed they were offered nothing at all.

 

[TheWorldWarrior]

So here's the deal, my grades, test scores, and my high school profile are good enough to get me to some top schools; however, I think I would be happier attending my state university (UGA). I've heard and have come to believe that the undergrad you go to isn't really a factor in medical school decisions, which has further pushed me in the direction of attending UGA (provided I get in). Basically, if I were to get into top tier schools of sorts, should I still stick with UGA, save money, and likely be happier, or should I consider the "top tier school?"

Public School; that is all.

 

[Gogetterr]

@TheWorldWarrior You being a Medical Student, I would really love to hear more of your insight.

 

[TheWorldWarrior]

@TheWorldWarrior You being a Medical Student, I would really love to hear more of your insight.

Medical Student no longer; for I have graduated!

When I was graduating HS a little over 7-8 years ago college decisions were super important [like they aren't now haha]. I didn't come from a super well off family that could afford to pay off 30-40,000 a year in tuition + room and board at a private institution so picking a low cost option was a must. However, within that low cost, the Super Highly selective schools e.g. Harvard, Yale, Princeton, MIT, Upenn, Columbia [even cornell but whatever] were OK with the fam. since our income would qualify me for reduced tuition or even a free ride at some of these schools, not to mention the opportunities that would be there [though there is some debate, as many students of these schools are from the wealthy social class]. I didn't get in; it was sad. I ended up going to a public university on scholarship and payed nothing for undergraduate school. Best decision ever. Where you go for undergrad doesn't matter so much; sure the location matters as your local opportunities are dictated by that. I was in NYC so there was plenty: tons of hospitals, clinics, underserved, broad range of cultures etc.

IDK much about your state school, but if you've toured it, interacted with students and like its atmosphere then go for it. If you get into Them Awesome Schools, and 1. you're super rich 2. you're super poor [and get that low tuition or free ride] i'd totally go. Or just go if you get in cause that's what i'd have done regardless.

That being said I assume a lot of your family and friends are around where your state school is/a closer drive than somewhere else. Having family close by is a real life saver; and you'll be having that college experience with the comfort that your loved ones are relatively close by in case you need them [instead of just skype]. If you want to go to grad school/med school [which you may] then save money now and use it for that. Go public. or be super poor and go to Harvard.

This is all an opinion and i don't really have data to back this up [IDK if the colleges have changed their policies on reduced/free tuition since I applied either] but I hope this helped in some way. By going to a public school instead of several hundred thousand in debt, i'll be in about 150,000 AFTER [U.S.]med school and an accelerated MPH. Not bad.

edit: let's not forget about interest.

 

[WedgeDawg]

Idk OP, if you apply and get into a school like Stanford or Penn and they give you money, why not take it? I'm solidly middle (maybe upper middle?) class and both my Ivy undergrad and Ivy med school were my cheapest options due to need-based aid...

That being said, nothing wrong with going to a state school, even if you do get into a top private school. Go where you think you'll be happiest (however you define that). Do I think I was afforded opportunities at my undergrad I wouldn't have gotten at my flagship state school (UVA - a very fine school)? Absolutely. Do I think it mattered in the end? Maybe, maybe not. Do I regret it? Absolutely not. Would I do the same thing again? In a heartbeat.

Do what's best for you.

 

[md-2020]

Idk OP, if you apply and get into a school like Stanford or Penn and they give you money, why not take it? I'm solidly middle (maybe upper middle?) class and both my Ivy undergrad and Ivy med school were my cheapest options due to need-based aid...

That being said, nothing wrong with going to a state school, even if you do get into a top private school. Go where you think you'll be happiest (however you define that). Do I think I was afforded opportunities at my undergrad I wouldn't have gotten at my flagship state school (UVA - a very fine school)? Absolutely. Do I think it mattered in the end? Maybe, maybe not. Do I regret it? Absolutely not. Would I do the same thing again? In a heartbeat.

Do what's best for you.

Same. We shall see for medical school.

Ivys give out tremendous financial aid grants. Grants being the key word.
Also, @OP, top schools are increasingly getting absurdly competitive. Think about this if you do in fact get into an elite tier undergrad.

 

[Stagg737]

Bottom line is to go where you're going to succeed. If aren't going to be able to hit a 3.6+ GPA, you're screwing yourself from the start. If you can go to a top tier school and end up paying the same as a state school, there's no reason not to go. Depending what state you're from, your public school may be just as good as many of the Ivy league schools. Michigan is a perfect example. Most adcoms will be equally impressed by a 3.8 from there as they would a 3.8 from Harvard, especially if the rest of your app is strong as well.

The last thing to consider about debt, that most people haven't touched on or may not know about, is that you can get denied for loans or offered less if you already have too much. I know a few incoming students who have posted on the facebook page asking about private loans and other sources of funding because they weren't able to get a big enough financial loan. There's also a few people who wanted to do a dual degree that couldn't because they had already taken out their max amount up to that point. I don't think this is common, but I know that it has happened before. Just another reason to try and limit your debt before med school as much as possible.

 

[efle]

Michigan is Ivy caliber these days? Agree with go where you can succeed for cheap though. Too bad high school counseling is as bad or worse than premed and so few people consider the right things about colleges

 

[md-2020]

Michigan is Ivy caliber these days? Agree with go where you can succeed for cheap though. Too bad high school counseling is as bad or worse than premed and so few people consider the right things about colleges

No.

But everyone gets a 3.7+ at Harvard so I'd argue a 3.8 at UM is probably tougher.

 

[efle]

I looked up the numbers out of curiosity, according to their website last year's class had a middle 50% ACT of 30-33, which does put it on par with like at least the non HYP ivies iirc, just got a big accept rate from being so much larger a university

If it's anything like Cal then yeah 3.8 is hella impressive

 

[WedgeDawg]

I looked up the numbers out of curiosity, according to their website last year's class had a middle 50% ACT of 30-33, which does put it on par with like at least the non HYP ivies iirc, just got a big accept rate from being so much larger a university

If it's anything like Cal then yeah 3.8 is hella impressive

Just an aside, it's not stats getting people into Ivies/etc these days - it's the rest of the package.

 

[efle]

Just an aside, it's not stats getting people into Ivies/etc these days - it's the rest of the package.

Agree the numbers are necessary but not sufficient - but the numbers are all I care about if I'm trying to assess how impressive a standout GPA in the student body is. People being more interesting with their ECs in high school is eh. So to me a 3.x assuming similar inflation is just as impressive between say UMich and Cornell

 

[WedgeDawg]

Agree the numbers are necessary but not sufficient - but the numbers are all I care about if I'm trying to assess how impressive a standout GPA in the student body is. People being more interesting with their ECs in high school is eh. So to me a 3.x assuming similar inflation is just as impressive between say UMich and Cornell

Sure, but it's definitely harder to get into Cornell than Michigan for undergrad. Not saying this to be mean or as a slight on UMich kids, but a lot of people who were applying to Ivies/etc used Michigan as their Early Action "safety" (much the same way I used UVA, though UVA didn't have Early Action when I was applying). Everyone got into Michigan, but only a few got into the Ivies/etc. I think the general population of UMich is similar to the population at UVA - everyone is fairly smart, but on average notably less impressive than Ivy/etc. Your standard deviation is larger, as is your range with Michigan and UVA. You will have some people at the top who are comparable to the top of those at the Ivies, but your median is going to be overall lower. I know some kids at UVA who are some of the smartest I've ever met and I've met a decent number who I were surprised got into UVA at all. At my own school, I don't think I've interacted with more than 2-3 people about whom I thought "how did you get in here again...?"

Though I'm speaking entirely from (an admittedly large amount of) anecdotal evidence, so my perception could very well be skewed by experience.

 

[efle]

Sure, but it's definitely harder to get into Cornell than Michigan for undergrad. Not saying this to be mean or as a slight on UMich kids, but a lot of people who were applying to Ivies/etc used Michigan as their Early Action "safety" (much the same way I used UVA, though UVA didn't have Early Action when I was applying). Everyone got into Michigan, but only a few got into the Ivies/etc. I think the general population of UMich is similar to the population at UVA - everyone is fairly smart, but on average notably less impressive than Ivy/etc. Your standard deviation is larger, as is your range with Michigan and UVA. You will have some people at the top who are comparable to the top of those at the Ivies, but your median is going to be overall lower. I know some kids at UVA who are some of the smartest I've ever met and I've met a decent number who I were surprised got into UVA at all. At my own school, I don't think I've interacted with more than 2-3 people about whom I thought "how did you get in here again...?"

Though I'm speaking entirely from (an admittedly large amount of) anecdotal evidence, so my perception could very well be skewed by experience.

I don't think the ranges are that different though, 30-33 vs 31-34 isn't going to really be noticeable at all. And it may be double the accept rate, but 15ish percent vs 30ish percent both have plenty of room to reject people that are numbers and absolutely nothing else. Plus that instate tuition is going to grab a big number of people who were also holding Ivy level accepts anyway, same as Cal and UCLA do.

 

[WedgeDawg]

I don't think the ranges are that different though, 30-33 vs 31-34 isn't going to really be noticeable at all. And it may be double the accept rate, but 15ish percent vs 30ish percent both have plenty of room to reject people that are numbers and absolutely nothing else. Plus that instate tuition is going to grab a big number of people who were also holding Ivy level accepts anyway, same as Cal and UCLA do.

Perhaps, but I'm just commenting on the impression I got from people at specific schools and making comparisons based off of perceived similarities between schools (UVA and Michigan). I'm not talking about people who got in, but people who are there. I'm too far removed from this process to have enough new firsthand exposure to be of any real use, so I don't think I can provide too much more useful information about UMich in particular.

 

[13132]

Go to your state school... have way less debt... and be no less shellshocked than your Ivy League peers when MS1 starts.

 

[13132]

UGA is a very good school. But don't sell yourself short -- if you can get into a top place like Yale, go for it.

I don't think any Ivy is worth the sticker price if your goal is medical school.

 

[efle]

I don't think any Ivy is worth the sticker price if your goal is medical school.

They tend to be very good at only charging sticker to people that can afford it many times over

 

[Strudel19]

UGA!

 

[Seth Joo]

What school you go to does play some role in getting into med school, it's just not as much as most undergrad schools would say. For example, a 3.5 from Harvard might be seen as equivalent to a 3.75 from state school. With that being said, as long as you do well in undergrad (get a 3.75+), do well on the MCAT, and get some decent extracurriculars in then going to a school that's not prestigious isn't going to hurt your med school applications. Literally thousands of students from state schools or liberal arts colleges are accepted every year. So go to a school where you'll enjoy your undergrad time as much as possible and just make sure you take care of business while you're there.

Its plays a huge role, I went to a top 4 Ivy School, got 9 interview invites from DO schools and was a non traditional applicant with zero research. I even talked to the Dean of my school and he told me that my college played a role in his decision to accept me, so it came straight from the source.

 

[Stagg737]

Its plays a huge role, I went to a top 4 Ivy School, got 9 interview invites from DO schools and was a non traditional applicant with zero research. I even talked to the Dean of my school and he told me that my college played a role in his decision to accept me, so it came straight from the source.

There's not a lot of context here, but being non-trad doesn't typically hurt you for DO schools (sometimes it can even help) and most DO schools don't care about research much as long as the rest of your ECs are decent. I'm sure your school helped, but I highly doubt it was the make-or-break aspect of your application.

 

[Seth Joo]

There's not a lot of context here, but being non-trad doesn't typically hurt you for DO schools (sometimes it can even help) and most DO schools don't care about research much as long as the rest of your ECs are decent. I'm sure your school helped, but I highly doubt it was the make-or-break aspect of your application.

That is very true, DO schools aren't as anal retentive as MD schools about your background, so people from non traditional backgrounds are welcome. I knew a guy at my school who was 43 years old, with three kids, and was a mechanic, not some kind of NASCAR or some exotic car mechanic, but a guy who used to work at one of those Jiffy Lube type joints. He came in real handy when I needed to fix the ABS system on my Prius.