(Closed) Former Argosy student with serious concerns...

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NVNative

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... about the teach out situation with TCS. I know TCS doesn't have any better a reputation than Argosy, or worse until the last few months, but this isn't about TCS. I checked the other Argosy threads and I didn't see this talked about so forgive me if this is a redundant thread but I need to ask some questions of those more in the know/not so close to the fire as I have been.

Argosy Orange County is now TCS-Irvine, same faculty and everything. TCS is just coming in and taking over, literally nothing will change, however this is at least just a teach out. I assume it is the same with Argosy Chicago and Argosy D.C./Virginia.

This issue that has nothing to do with TCS is that Argosy faculty have been getting paid with stolen student financial aid all year, and they've known it since the end of January and even if they want to say they didn't know it then, it is absurd to think they didn't know it was stolen money by the last paycheck they received the week before all the campuses closed. This applies to all campuses so no, Arizona and others that are not teach out locations are not innocent in this in any way.

So the teach out option for those students at teach out campuses is to continue being taught by the very faculty that accepted our stolen financial aid money in their paychecks, knew it was stolen, and tried to get us to be okay with it as the scam played out.

That is the option I and other Argosy students have if we want to continue in the PsyD program and I just don't get how any state board or the APA can sign off on this. These people shouldn't even have licenses to practice anymore and surely shouldn't be in positions of authority over students in training.
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I'm sorry about your situation, but those are some strong words. What are your alternatives? No teach out? Had the students gotten that money and the faculty not been paid, there would be no program anyway as there would be no faculty. This is an issue between Argosy and the Dept of Education. The only persons guilty are the ones that filed the fraudulent papers to the Dept of Ed. Had they not done that, the school would have just collapsed earlier when it ran out of money and students still would not have received financial aid (Argosy was required to front students the money and they did not have it). APA and state boards do not look at financial matters, so they don't have a say in it anyway.
 
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Sanman said:
I'm sorry about your situation, but those are some strong words. What are your alternatives? No teach out? Had the students gotten that money and the faculty not been paid, there would be no program anyway as there would be no faculty. This is an issue between Argosy and the Dept of Education. The only persons guilty are the ones that filed the fraudulent papers to the Dept of Ed. Had they not done that, the school would have just collapsed earlier when it ran out of money and students still would not have received financial aid (Argosy was required to front students the money and they did not have it). APA and state boards do not look at financial matters, so they don't have a say in it anyway.
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TCS is letting Argosy students transfer in and taking at a minimum 75% of their credits so there are options that don't involve having people who knowingly stole from at least the DoE if not you yourself having authority over you. I'm fascinated that you think the only guilty party here is Dream. It's like saying the only guilty member of the mob is the mob boss and not the underlings that take knowingly stolen money and helped in the scam itself. Faculty had been lying to us right up to the day they closed. One of my friends withdrew the day before it all ended and was berated for her "impulsive" decision, yet these people are blameless?

And when did simple factual statements become "strong words." I have lurked around here for some time and the bashing of students at these schools is incessant, yet the faculty are innocent saints... even after they knowingly accepted stolen money? Let's be real here.
 
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NVNative said:
TCS is letting Argosy students transfer in and taking at a minimum 75% of their credits so there are options that don't involve having people who knowingly stole from at least the DoE if not you yourself having authority over you. I'm fascinated that you think the only guilty party here is Dream. It's like saying the only guilty member of the mob is the mob boss and not the underlings that take knowingly stolen money and helped in the scam itself. Faculty had been lying to us right up to the day they closed. One of my friends withdrew the day before it all ended and was berated for her "impulsive" decision, yet these people are blameless?

And when did simple factual statements become "strong words." I have lurked around here for some time and the bashing of students at these schools is incessant, yet the faculty are innocent saints... even after they knowingly accepted stolen money? Let's be real here.
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No one said they are innocent saints, but they are not the ones that committed the crime. You use your analogy, yes you go after the mob boss or others in the mafia. You don't go after the waiter that works in the mob owned restaurant. They may know where the money comes from, but they are just a waiter at the end of the day and that is not a crime. You can transfer to TCS and I am sure many of those same professors will be hired by TCS to teach all the extra students. At the end of the day, employees of an institution. They are not Chief Financial Officer. If the check clears, they continue to work there. Same with the admissions and marketing people. At the end of the day, they all lost their jobs because they chose to work at a company with a less than stellar reputation. There are bigger fish in the sea.
 
Sanman said:
No one said they are innocent saints, but they are not the ones that committed the crime. You use your analogy, yes you go after the mob boss or others in the mafia. You don't go after the waiter that works in the mob owned restaurant. They may know where the money comes from, but they are just a waiter at the end of the day and that is not a crime. You can transfer to TCS and I am sure many of those same professors will be hired by TCS to teach all the extra students. At the end of the day, employees of an institution. They are not Chief Financial Officer. If the check clears, they continue to work there. Same with the admissions and marketing people. At the end of the day, they all lost their jobs because they chose to work at a company with a less than stellar reputation. There are bigger fish in the sea.
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Not even close. They were not merely waiters at the mob owned restaurant, they actively participated in the scam and lied to use literally up to the day they closed, all the while cashing checks they knew were stolen money. For the life of me I don't understand how you see them as so innocent and yes, that is how you see them given your waiter analogy. They are not and they should not have licenses let alone jobs as faculty overseeing the training of the truly innocent victims in all this.

And yes, state boards and the APA do have authority over licensees who commit crimes, which is what accepting knowingly stolen money is... a crime.
 
NVNative said:
Not even close. They were not merely waiters at the mob owned restaurant, they actively participated in the scam and lied to use literally up to the day they closed, all the while cashing checks they knew were stolen money. For the life of me I don't understand how you see them as so innocent and yes, that is how you see them. They are not and they should not have licenses let alone jobs as faculty overseeing the training of the truly innocent victims in all this.

And yes, state boards and the APA do have authority over licensees who commit crimes, which is what accepting knowingly stolen money is... a crime.
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So enlighten me, what law have they broken?
 
Sanman said:
So enlighten me, what law have they broken?
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All states and the federal government in the U.S. have receiving stolen property laws. You really thought it was perfectly legal to accept knowingly stolen property? You cannot be serious.
 
NVNative said:
All states have receiving stolen property laws. You really thought it was perfectly legal to accept knowingly stolen property? You cannot be serious.
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It wasn't your property, so why do you care? It is was Dept of Education money and you have no idea where/how it was spent. Even if it was considered a crime, students would have no standing with regard to the money.
 
Sanman said:
It wasn't your property, so why do you care? It is was Dept of Education money and you have no idea where/how it was spent. Even if it was considered a crime, students would have no standing with regard to the money.
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Right... no ethical violations in having committed the crime of receiving stolen property because it was only stolen from the DoE... good gawd, at this point just tell us what Argosy campus you were a faculty member of because this has gotten beyond ridiculous.

And yes, we do know the money was used for payroll, this has been widely reported.

Seriously, what campus are you formerly a faculty member of? Or is it a current TCS faculty member at an Argosy teach out campus?

What would I care that actual criminals who lied right to my face for weeks and weeks are now my only teach out option... you should be stand up comedian.
 
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NVNative said:
Right... no ethical violations in having committed the crime of receiving stolen property because it was only stolen from the DoE... good gawd, at this point just tell us what Argosy campus you were a faculty member of because this has gotten beyond ridiculous.

And yes, we do know the money was used for payroll, this has been widely reported.

Seriously, what campus are you formerly a faculty member of?

What would I care that actual criminals who lied right to my face for weeks and weeks are now my only teach out option... you should be stand up comedian.
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Ethical violations are different from crimes. In order to charge anyone from receiving stolen property, you would need to know where every single dollar went. This will never happen as I am sure it was co-mingled with legal funds and the money went various places. I have no ties to Argosy whether you want to believe it or not. I simply disagree with your premise about the faculty. At the end of the day, Argosy leadership have some questions to answer and I am sure leadership were more concerned with keeping the money flowing into their own pockets and less concerned with faculty. I don't see faculty as any more culpable than the students who chose to attend their programs.
 
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Sanman said:
It wasn't your property, so why do you care? It is was Dept of Education money and you have no idea where/how it was spent. Even if it was considered a crime, students would have no standing with regard to the money.
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I think the “why do you care” is a very flawed argument, especially with a student being significantly impacted by this mess.
 
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Sanman said:
Ethical violations are different from crimes. In order to charge anyone from receiving stolen property, you would need to know where every single dollar went. This will never happen as I am sure it was co-mingled with legal funds and the money went various places. I have no ties to Argosy whether you want to believe it or not. I simply disagree with your premise about the faculty. At the end of the day, Argosy leadership have some questions to answer and I am sure leadership were more concerned with keeping the money flowing into their own pockets and less concerned with faculty. I don't see faculty as any more culpable than the students who chose to attend their programs.
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Not in this case they are not. The crime of receiving stolen property would be an ethical violation of any state board, let alone receiving that stolen property from the very students you are in a position of authority over-because yes, those were student loan funds they stole so yes they did steal from me. Your reasoning is so flawed and childish I cannot but assume you are associated with Argosy. How else could anyone think actual criminals are no more guilty than those they stole from?

As far as your defense attorney apologetics... save it. I don't care how this would play out in court, these people are criminals and that's that.
 
GradStudent2020 said:
I think the “why do you care” is a very flawed argument, especially with a student being significantly impacted by this mess.
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He's associated with Argosy, no other way to explain his bizarre apologetics, down to defense lawyer nonsense. Sounds like he's already had himself a legal consultation about all this and has just been playing dumb.

But I'm going to do something else with the rest of my evening. Good luck with him.
 
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NVNative said:
He's associated with Argosy, no other way to explain his bizarre apologetics, down to defense lawyer nonsense. Sounds like he's already had himself a legal consultation about all this and has just been playing dumb.

But I'm going to do something else with the rest of my evening. Good luck with him.
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I don’t think he is.

This is obviously a terrible situation for current students, and I hate that right now your options feel like lose/lose.
 
GradStudent2020 said:
I don’t think he is.

This is obviously a terrible situation for current students, and I hate that right now your options feel like lose/lose.
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He's a VA staff psychologist, and is quite open about it on here.
 
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Justanothergrad said:
:corny:

All these argosy spies...
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You got me. I'm a secret double agent that has maintained a persona on here over a decade telling people going to Argosy is a bad idea in order to spy and find those that have committed treason against the all mighty Argosy. However, all along I have been a Dept of Education spy. Does that make me a triple agent?

You tell people not to go there, you get bashed as being bias. You say not everyone employed there is a criminal, you get bashed as being bias. I am really going to miss Argosy.
 
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Am I the only one who finds it refreshing to finally have Argosy students posting about how their institutions are not legit after years of us trying to make this case to prospective students?

Seriously, while I empathize with the concerns and questioned the ethics of faculty affiliated with places like Argosy long before this evolved, its a massive stretch to claim they are legally culpable. Most people do not have direct control over their paychecks. I would wager money the vast majority of faculty had no idea their paychecks came from the stolen loan money any earlier than the students did. Urging students to remain enrolled is perhaps misguided optimism, but probably doesn't arise to a criminal act. That said, I get that students may be put off by having to work with anyone affiliated with the place.

<---- 10+ year ardent critic of Argosy, current faculty at a major academic medical center, zero history of any affiliation with Argosy
 
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Ollie123 said:
Am I the only one who finds it refreshing to finally have Argosy students posting about how their institutions are not legit after years of us trying to make this case to prospective students?

Seriously, while I empathize with the concerns and questioned the ethics of faculty affiliated with places like Argosy long before this evolved, its a massive stretch to claim they are legally culpable. Most people do not have direct control over their paychecks. I would wager money the vast majority of faculty had no idea their paychecks came from the stolen loan money any earlier than the students did. Urging students to remain enrolled is perhaps misguided optimism, but probably doesn't arise to a criminal act. That said, I get that students may be put off by having to work with anyone affiliated with the place.

<---- 10+ year ardent critic of Argosy, current faculty at a major academic medical center, zero history of any affiliation with Argosy
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Yes and no for me. It is a bit refreshing to hear this, but it is also just the same old blaming external forces and defending their choices. The man is holding them down and going to an APA internship and getting a good education is just an elitist mentality. Now the same people that were all about bending the rules so that they could take advantage of the system are angry when it blows up in their face. Next the person the other week that was calling taxpayers suckers for covering his/her debt relief through PSLF will be calling the government evildoers if PSLF is taken away. Nah, that is just karma.
 
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If I were the OP, I think I’d be ****ing thanking Jesus that another school is going to accept 75% of my credits instead of having to start totally over, that my student loan from spring 2019 was effectively wiped out and I can still get loans at the teach out campus, and I can still obtain the degree I’ve been working toward. Or, request a Closed School Loan Discharge and move onto plan B. And Hope Plan B doesn’t lead to the same outcome as Plan A. Let the courts (judge who appointed the receiver, judge who ordered the initial settlement that led to EDMC selling to DCEH) sort out who knew what when where and how.

But that’s just me. :shrug:
 
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@NVNative I think most of the forum members feel very strong empathy for students being screwed by Argosy. I guarantee that most everyone here thinks that Argosy has been a predatory institution. @Sanman definitely has no love for Argosy. I think the difference in opinion is how culpable are the faculty. It is not a simple answer.

When did the faculty become criminals in your mind?
Was it only with the last paycheck?
Was it with the the previous few paychecks?
Was it when the faculty accepted the job in the first place?

I interviewed at a university-based, well-regarded PsyD program during my job search. While being a good school, the tuition was very high. I thought a lot about the ethical dilemma of being part of a non-predatory training institution but also playing a role in leading students into very large debt. Fortunately, I did not get an offer and didn't have to make that hard choice. But I definitely made a choice not to apply to Argosy or similar type programs. If you are going to blame them for not returning their salary (BTW, payment for work they had completed) you might as well blame them for being their to start with. Similarly, any faculty at The Chicago School are also culpable. There isn't much that separates The Chicago School of toady with the Argosy of 2 years ago.
 
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WisNeuro said:
Man, I leave for about a week and miss some good stuff and off-the-wall Unabomber level ramblings. I missed you, SDN.
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The forum could be dead for a month but as soon as someone gets busy for a week it goes bananas.
 
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WisNeuro said:
off-the-wall Unabomber level ramblings.
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I resent this. In addition to being one of the most brilliant and, for the few years he was active, productive mathematicians alive, he is also one of the most profound psychological writers I have encountered. The central theme of his work was that individuals in a state removed from nature engage in what he terms "surrogate activities" which, due to their inadequate ability to meet innate needs, will never satisfy. He provides examples such as Emperor Hirohito becoming distinguished in the field of marine biology - for what reason? The premise is that modern society provides us with activities that are in some sense parallel to the real achievement and self-sufficiency that would provide satisfaction, and in that would not themselves provide a sense of completion. This work is why I am a psychologist and researcher today. My work on highly applied interventions and my commitment to clinical contributions have all been inspired by his work.
 
Quick, someone hide all the Marxist texts before OP starts questioning if there's any ethical consumption under capitalism!
 
Mvp89 said:
I resent this. In addition to being one of the most brilliant and, for the few years he was active, productive mathematicians alive, he is also one of the most profound psychological writers I have encountered. The central theme of his work was that individuals in a state removed from nature engage in what he terms "surrogate activities" which, due to their inadequate ability to meet innate needs, will never satisfy. He provides examples such as Emperor Hirohito becoming distinguished in the field of marine biology - for what reason? The premise is that modern society provides us with activities that are in some sense parallel to the real achievement and self-sufficiency that would provide satisfaction, and in that would not themselves provide a sense of completion. This work is why I am a psychologist and researcher today. My work on highly applied interventions and my commitment to clinical contributions have all been inspired by his work.
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The “central theme” of his work is that he is a terrorist murderer.
 
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LadyHalcyon said:
Ehhhh yes but he did have an underlying theory. Plus, those Harvard experiments weren't exactly great for his mental health
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OK...WTF is going on here? The guy was nuts. Whether it was schizophrenia, schizoid or schizotypal, or just pathological narcissism. doesn't really matter.

Just because he wrote some cliche paranoid stuff about society, nature, and technology doesn't mean he is some profound intellectual (aside from his math skills). Its a sign of, and a quite common thought distortion in the psychotic spectrum disorders.

Regarding your last statement, I think we need to be very careful about misplaced empathy in regards to correlating anti-social acts to prior traumas.
 
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erg923 said:
The “central theme” of his work is that he is a terrorist murderer.
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That was in fact not the central theme of his work. Anyway, what have you accomplished with your life? Who have you inspired? Everything I've ever seen you post over the years is about how to maximize income while minimizing effort. Congratulations.
 
Mvp89 said:
Anyway, what have you accomplished with your life? Who have you inspired? Everything I've ever seen you post over the years is about how to maximize income while minimizing effort. Congratulations.
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I have a wife and have created 3 wonderful children to inspire everyday. I prefer that to rambling manifestos and bomb making.

Mvp89 said:
Everything I've ever seen you post over the years is about how to maximize income while minimizing effort. Congratulations.
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Thats what business is.
 
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Can you imagine going to a psychologist whose clinical work was inspired by a serial killer?
 
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Mvp89 said:
Yeah, you're a businessman (read: middle manager).You're in no position to insult the intellectual achievements of anyone.
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Yea, bomb making is hard. Murder is hard.
 
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erg923 said:
Yea, bomb making is hard. Murder is hard.
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Solving math problems no one has ever solved while writing works that have inspired countless is actually pretty hard.

Anyway given that you derive your inspiration from Catholicism I think I'll stay with the lesser of two evils.
 
Mvp89 said:
Solving math problems no one has ever solved while writing works that have inspired countless is actually pretty hard.

Anyway given that you derive your inspiration from Catholicism I think I'll stay with the lesser of two evils.
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You are trying very hard to admire and support a serial killer, whilst also insulting middle managers and the largest Christian population in the world. This is just plain weird at this point.

If you want to continue this nonsense, you can PM me. K?
 
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erg923 said:
You are trying very hard to admire and support a serial killer whilst insulting the largest Christian sect in the world. This is just plain weird this point.
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You regularly use ridicule to avoid arguments when your replies are inadequate. I can understand my views are not those of the majority: you don't seem to have the insight to recognize the ways in which your values are undeveloped.
 
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Mvp89 said:
You regularly use ridicule to avoid arguments when your replies are inadequate. I can understand my views are not those of the majority: you don't seem to have the insight to recognize the ways in which your values are undeveloped.
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Ok. If i just say, you're right...you ARE more intellectual/smart/motivated/inspired/developed or whatever the ****, will you stop all this nonsense? thanks.
 
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Great spirits have always encountered violent opposition from mediocre minds.
The mediocre mind is incapable of understanding the man who refuses to bow blindly to conventional prejudices and chooses instead to express his opinions courageously and honestly.
 
Mvp89 said:
Great spirits have always encountered violent opposition from mediocre minds.
The mediocre mind is incapable of understanding the man who refuses to bow blindly to conventional prejudices and chooses instead to express his opinions courageously and honestly.
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Take your self-congratulations offline, oh great one.
 
Mvp89 said:
Great spirits have always encountered violent opposition from mediocre minds.
The mediocre mind is incapable of understanding the man who refuses to bow blindly to conventional prejudices and chooses instead to express his opinions courageously and honestly
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Welp, I guess this signals the irish coffee.
 
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PSYDR said:
Can you imagine going to a psychologist whose clinical work was inspired by a serial killer?
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unrelated, but I'm tangential this morning. The only legitimate ABFP'd child custody evaluator in my city (who has since retired and left the market completely open for hacks), has portraits of all the big ones up in his basement. Portraits. I think he painted them as well. I don't think the family court judges and magistrates were aware of this during his 35 year career.
 
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0A725F33-46C0-455E-BBC0-494D9AAAC460.jpeg
 
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NVNative said:
Not in this case they are not. The crime of receiving stolen property would be an ethical violation of any state board, let alone receiving that stolen property from the very students you are in a position of authority over-because yes, those were student loan funds they stole so yes they did steal from me ...
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Sorry that this thread devolved into the bizarre and sublime, as any old D&D aficionado (PnP) will tell you is wont to happen when trolls battle it out. Try to ignore that stuff.

I agree with you that if the "professors" accepted pay that they knew came from ill-begotten means, then they are culpable- at least ethically, and maybe even criminally. Do you have a basis for saying that they absolutely knew? Am I correct in that you believe that they received pay from accounts padded with stolen loan funds even after the announcements that the "school" was engaging in this activity? I think it will be difficult to prove, but don't begrudge you your anger. I- as would many here- would argue that these "professors" were culpable in the overall scam that was Argosy, and that any reasonably intelligent person can and should have deduced from a cursory review program outcomes and costs that the model was not in the best interests of students as a whole.

Best of luck with whatever the next steps are for you.
 
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I'm not disagreeing with you, he was not psychologically well. I was just saying he had a "theory", although most delusional people do.
erg923 said:
WTF is going on here. The guy was nuts. Whether ist was schizophrenia, schizoid or schizotypal, or just pathological narcissism. doesn't really matter.

Just because he wrote some cliche paranoid stuff about society, nature, and technology doesn't mean he is some profound intellectual (aside from his math skills). Its a sign of, and a quite common thought distortion in the psychotic spectrum disorders.

Regarding your last statement, I think we need to be very careful about misplaced empathy in regards to correlating anti-social acts to prior traumas.
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I go to sleep after an argument about Argosy and wake up on a federal watchlist. Thanks SDN!
 
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